[Dreamscarred Press] Announcing: Airships

[pawsplay]

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is RJ Grady. My first freelance project was Unorthodox Barbarians d20. I started my own product line, Tripod Machine, with the five-starred Adventuring Classes: A Fistful of Denarii. Since then, I have run a successful Kickstarter for Conquest of the Universe, a space opera setting for the Pathfinder Role-Playing Game, currently under development. Now, I am happy to announce that I am writing a book for Dreamscarred Press, Airships.

Airships builds on some of the best OGL content from the third edition era, bringing it up to date for Pathfinder. Airships integrates smoothly with the vehicles rules in Ultimate Combat, but builds upon them, to capture the spirit of daring balloon races in the air or ship-to-ship combat between dwarven Waraxe-type craft. The bulk of the book concerns aerial combat and movement and airship construction. It also includes new material for player characters in aerial campaigns, including feats, class archetypes, and new spells.

Today, we open a month-long playtest of the material. Because of the breadth and length of the material, your feedback is absolutely important. Based on the criticism and input you offer, we will thrash this thing into its final form. Feel free to drop comments or questions into this discussion thread. You may also email me at [email protected].

If you agree to take part in our playtest, just click on the link below where you can view the playtest document and make comments.

PLAYTEST DOCUMENT (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cSlzOuE5yVNZgXDk1caz4PUNEJIUq_IIFl3-1yUHScY/edit?usp=sharing)

[Doomeye56]

I really want to play a airship campaign now.

[Vhaidara]

I'm surprisingly ambivalent about this. The idea sounds interesting, and DSP does good work, but I also just backed Skybourne on Kickstarter.

Well, guess 4 books on airships are better than 3.

[stack]

Will read presently. Definitely behind the idea, would fit great with a setting kicking around the back of my skull for some time.

ed - acceleration and deceleration references the captain, shouldn't that be the pilot?

[Mehangel]

I couldn't help but notice that there wasn't any specific psionic support with powering an airship which I thought was slightly disappointing... I also dont see a reason to differentiate between Profession (Airship Sailor) and Profession (Sailor). What I mean, is that I could see players start off with normal ships with 2D combat and as they progress eventually upgrade to 3D combat with airships... Or perhaps have something mentioned in the Skill where one can use one for the other but with a -5 penalty (which works both ways, i.e. utilizing Airship Sailor for Sailor, or Sailor for Airship Sailor) otherwise a player may put investment in one of the two skills and would have to retrain, etc... Just a thought.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I couldn't help but notice that there wasn't any specific psionic support with powering an airship which I thought was slightly disappointing...

Ssalarn is working on Psionic tech, you may end up seeing it there.

I'll look through this shortly.

[Forrestfire]

Well this sounds pretty awesome. Airships are incredibly kickass.

[stack]

I might suggest breaking the doc down into separate chapters or sub-sections to make it easier to navigate and review particular sections.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

This might be the first DSP project I'm actually interested in.

[stack]

I would like to see more examples of how ships work on the smallest end, where you don't have crew space for all the roles. It would be interesting to have 4 ton patrols boats or outriders that dock with a larger craft for supplies/maintenance, sleeping quarters, etc.

[(Un)Inspired]

Hmmmm. Airships still seem like more of a hassle than just teleporting but I might as well look into increasing my CL high enough that I can cast animate objects on one.

[Seerow]

Airships are expensive, and short of stealing or being given one, only remarkably wealthy individuals can get their hands on them. Not all characters in your game are likely to own their own airships, and most initial adventures should take place with the party serving upon someone else' s vessel.

Got this far, instantly lost all of my interest. Sounds like a better option for a campaign setting than a rules supplement if that's the intention.

[(Un)Inspired]

It would be great if you included a version of the spell Fly like an Arrow so winged creatures could attempt to catch up to airships or fly between them more effectively.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I like the idea of Arcane/Divine engines; will there be a Psionic engine?

Also, it sounds a bit indulgent, but in the the Inner Sea Setting on Akiton, where airships are used in a very 'Princess of Mars' way, they use harpoon cannons. A bit like ballistae, but they can be used to hamper airships, even without lines attached. Would be fun to have those present.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm going to have to agree with Seerow. If you don't include some way for PCs to buy airships in a book about airships, all you're going to end up doing is turn every airship campaign that uses your book into a "How do we steal this boat?" game. As a DM you don't dangle something that shiny in front of the players unless you want your entire campaign to revolve around it.

[BWR]

If they have Fantasy Physics and Fantasy Engineering as skills, I'm sold.

[pawsplay]

I like the idea of Arcane/Divine engines; will there be a Psionic engine?


Several people have asked that, so the answer is likely, "Yes." I'm also thinking about a psionic prestige class along the lines of the Ship Mage and Ship Theurge.



Also, it sounds a bit indulgent, but in the the Inner Sea Setting on Akiton, where airships are used in a very 'Princess of Mars' way, they use harpoon cannons. A bit like ballistae, but they can be used to hamper airships, even without lines attached. Would be fun to have those present.

That's an interesting idea. Let me ponder that.


I'm going to have to agree with Seerow. If you don't include some way for PCs to buy airships in a book about airships, all you're going to end up doing is turn every airship campaign that uses your book into a "How do we steal this boat?" game. As a DM you don't dangle something that shiny in front of the players unless you want your entire campaign to revolve around it.

If you have a suggestion for getting 3rd level characters onto an airship other than "join a crew" or "steal one," I'm all ears. Typically, low- and mid-level characters don't have tends of thousands of gold pieces to throw around on exotic transportation.

[stack]

They have quite a bit about building them and costs, but the cost is high enough that you won't be building your own very often. Not just gold cost, which you could swing for a small ship, but skills and feats as well. Part of the problem stems from general vehicle costs, which are not unreasonable but relative to the availability of magic are unattractive.

Scratch that, the SRD has an airship that only costs 50,000. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/vehicles/air-vehicles/airship) It would take a bit of work to compare that to an equivalent in this system, but I bet its cheaper.

- Actually, looks similar to the sample dirigible, which I suppose makes sense. SRD one doesn't require fuel and lacks a number of other limitations, but it wasn't written with an entire airship system in mind.

[Ilorin Lorati]

If you have a suggestion for getting 3rd level characters onto an airship other than "join a crew" or "steal one," I'm all ears. Typically, low- and mid-level characters don't have tends of thousands of gold pieces to throw around on exotic transportation.

That's easy. If you want this to be a toolbox supplement, provide multiple levels of accessibility. If you're playing in a world where literally the only way to get around is through airships, there should be small ones that are worth low 4 digits, if that. Likewise if they're a common sight.

[pawsplay]

That's easy. If you want this to be a toolbox supplement, provide multiple levels of accessibility. If you're playing in a world where literally the only way to get around is through airships, there should be small ones that are worth low 4 digits, if that. Likewise if they're a common sight.

An airship is not a family car. I'm not sure what kind of campaign you are envisioning. However, the numbers in Airships are pretty firm. If you want to lower those costs, you are talking about vastly changing the cost of many things besides airships. I used three primary benchmarks when looking at affordability:

- A flying vessel should not be cheaper than an equivalent non-flying vessel (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatVehicles.html), so anything that carries a party over long distances should cost at least 10,000 gp
- A small airship should not be cheaper than a carpet of flying (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/wondrousItems.html#carpet-of-flying) unless it is worse
- An relatively slow, unarmed, balloon-like dirigible of Colossal size should cost about 50,000 gp

If you want to play Fantasy Jetsons, where everyone flies around in their own weevil-shaped flying saucer, I say go ahead, but that's beyond the scope of this book. This is a book on airships, not campaign design. A wand of fly costs 11,250 gp. A staff with overland flight would cost even more. Those values are a given.

[Ilorin Lorati]

That's your choice. You implicitly asked a question (how could you get level 3 characters into airships sans stealing it), and I answered it; I'm not sure why you're so defensive about that.

[pawsplay]

It was not my intention to be defensive, and I apologize if I came across that way. As I said, you certainly could run a campaign that way. There is nothing at all wrong with that idea. I am just noting where I got my numbers.

[Seerow]

An airship is not a family car. I'm not sure what kind of campaign you are envisioning. However, the numbers in Airships are pretty firm. If you want to lower those costs, you are talking about vastly changing the cost of many things besides airships. I used three primary benchmarks when looking at affordability:

- A flying vessel should not be cheaper than an equivalent non-flying vessel (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatVehicles.html), so anything that carries a party over long distances should cost at least 10,000 gp
- A small airship should not be cheaper than a carpet of flying (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/wondrousItems.html#carpet-of-flying) unless it is worse
- An relatively slow, unarmed, balloon-like dirigible of Colossal size should cost about 50,000 gp

If you want to play Fantasy Jetsons, where everyone flies around in their own weevil-shaped flying saucer, I say go ahead, but that's beyond the scope of this book. This is a book on airships, not campaign design. A wand of fly costs 11,250 gp. A staff with overland flight would cost even more. Those values are a given.

A couple suggestions:
-Provide alternate costs in terms of BP. So when combined with Kingdom building rules, a group ruling a Kingdom can get access to airships relatively easily. Players might not have 100k gold to throw around on an airship, but a mid-sized kingdom can pretty easily spare 5-10 BP to get an airship. You could also go a bit further and provide some rules for using airships in mass combat.

-Provide a feat similar to Landlord from stronghold builder's guide. Yeah giving players an extra 100,000gp is usually going to result in them buying magic items and still not getting an airship. But letting a player spend a feat to pick up an effectively free airship that scales with their level is totally cool.



Mechanics-wise, like I said I got bored pretty much as soon as I saw the intent wasn't to give players ways to get airships, because at that point the costs don't even really matter. But skimming through it seemed like airship speeds are really slow, regardless of size. While a mega flying fortress should probably be pretty slow, having rules for smaller very fast airships would be awesome. Think fighter planes instead of aircraft carriers.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I find it amusing that the basic 50,000 wooden airship from UC is statted up rather nicely. Although man some of these airships are expensive. Although, they are pretty easy to justify, at least. Reminds me of real-life military spending in some cases.

[Elricaltovilla]

It doesn't have to be about buying one outright so much as presenting DMs with ways to allow their players to own the airship at whatever level of play the group feels comfortable introducing such a ship. It's a worthwhile design space to explore, because the more accessible you make the rules across character levels, the wider an audience you'll be able to reach.

The desire to have an airship from the beginning is a strong one, they're so visually and viscerally appealing, that's why books about airships can sell so well. There are plenty of opportunities for settings where access to airships is easy, a great example is the video game Skies of Arcadia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skies_of_Arcadia), and it's not the only one.

This forum is filled with experts on the rules of D&D and Pathfinder. If you let them, they'll be more than willing to help expand and refine your product, and they'll do it for the love of the product. I know, I've borrowed their expertise more than a few times myself.

[TheIronGolem]

- A small airship should not be cheaper than a carpet of flying (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/wondrousItems.html#carpet-of-flying) unless it is worse


It is worse. An airship can't be controlled with spoken commands, and can't be rolled up and stuck in your backpack for safekeeping while you're dungeoncrawling.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Your numbers work out fine, I'm not going to argue them because I don't see a need to. I wasn't talking about a "family car" type deal, I'm more talking about a 1 person flying machine that may or may not have room for cargo.

I'm having trouble navigating the book (from a practical standpoint; I'm stuck on a crappy old laptop that can't effectively run modern browsers) so I don't know what the rock bottom flying machine is. I do know that Paizo published a statblock for a nonmagical glider that didn't have need to land with a skilled pilot that cost 500gp.

Add magic to that, keeping absolute bare minimum weight and power, and see what comes out. It doesn't need to be as good as the magic carpet.

[Prime32]

Needs a way to upgrade an airship to travel between planes, underwater or through space - if you need to go one of those places at high levels, it sucks having to leave your mode of transport behind. Plus a way to defend against enemies teleporting directly into your engine room and killing everyone.

I'd also recommend introducing one or more types of weather/terrain/phenomena that are difficult to travel through without an airship even at high levels (constant damage, hurricane-force winds, blocks teleportation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WalkIntoMordor), etc.).

Pushing the Limits feels like it should be taken out of the introductory section and made a function of certain feats or class features. This has the dual function of making PCs feel more awesome for being able to pull these stunts off, and making the intro shorter so that people can start playing sooner. Likewise I'd suggest moving the sections on Hazards and Things-Going-Wrong to later in the book - they're stuff that won't come up unless the GM decides to introduce them, and most groups picking up a new ruleset will want to start simple.


If you have a suggestion for getting 3rd level characters onto an airship other than "join a crew" or "steal one," I'm all ears. Typically, low- and mid-level characters don't have tends of thousands of gold pieces to throw around on exotic transportation.Artifact airships that function only for certain pilots and don't need a large crew. You could build a whole plot around discovering where it came from, how it works, why the PCs are able to use it, etc.

[Seerow]

Also I want to put some emphasis behind Stack's post here:


They have quite a bit about building them and costs, but the cost is high enough that you won't be building your own very often. Not just gold cost, which you could swing for a small ship, but skills and feats as well. Part of the problem stems from general vehicle costs, which are not unreasonable but relative to the availability of magic are unattractive.

- Actually, looks similar to the sample dirigible, which I suppose makes sense. SRD one doesn't require fuel and lacks a number of other limitations, but it wasn't written with an entire airship system in mind.

Stack's point about skill and feat investment is the most important one to consider. I get that making your character into an awesome airship pilot/sailor is a cool concept, but that is not enough to carry a character 99% of the time. This is a problem that cropped up in the various Star Wars games, and probably every other game where "pilot" is supposed to be a shtick.

Either you've got your ship, and you as the pilot get to do everything and nobody else can do anything. Or ships aren't available and you're useless. Haven't read through most of the rules, but if Stack's point about needing to sink build resources into being effective aboard an airship is correct, the book will be useless to any group not playing a campaign dedicated to airships (which will approach roughly zero when combined with the costs to get an airship.

He also makes a good point that you are providing a massive expansion of rules that seems to include many drawbacks. You stat up the sample core Airship at the same price with similar effectiveness... but more drawbacks such as maintenance and fuel costs. There is a very solid argument to be made that core PF prices the airship at 50,000gp to abstract away that maintenance, and so by introducing those rules the airship itself should be much cheaper to get.


It is worse. An airship can't be controlled with spoken commands, and can't be rolled up and stuck in your backpack for safekeeping while you're dungeoncrawling.

This is also a good point. Carpets of Flying are great because they're small, portable, and give flight usable easily in standard combat combined with your standard capabilities. When airship rules appear to be 200 pages of saying how different everything is while on an airship, that automatically makes it worse. If you make a small 40ft speed ship cost the same as a carpet of flying, players will buy that carpet of flying every time because the Carpet is better in every conceivable way, just with cooler fluff.


An airship is not a family car. I'm not sure what kind of campaign you are envisioning. However, the numbers in Airships are pretty firm.


Coming back to this point for a second. To make something equivalent to a family car, you'd have to have a 4-6 man capable airship available for around 500gp, likely less. We are talking about a world where most individuals are measuring their income in silver. I don't think anyone is really asking for that. Having smaller airships available in the 1k-10k GP range isn't going to suddenly turn the setting into the jetsons, because most people still won't be able to afford them. So using setting as an excuse to not lower prices is being very disingenuous.

[Karl Aegis]

Vanships with enough room for a pilot, a navigator and a passenger would be cool, as would one-person ground-air hybrid starfish vessel, both seen in The Last Exile. Of course, airships don't fit in a D&D Iron Age economy very much, as most people wouldn't be able to keep up with fuel costs.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

An Iron Colossus, a Mythic CR 21 juggernaut of war, costs 500,000 to buy. A clockwork dragon, a CR16 construct that is the pinnacle of clockwork constructs, costs 300,000 to buy. A Wish, the pinnacle of reality-warping magic, is 26,530 to have cast, however likely to find it is. I believe the internal rules that Paizo has cuts off artifacts after a GP value of more than several hundred thousand gold.

Some costs to keep in mind.


Vanships with enough room for a pilot, a navigator and a passenger would be cool, as would one-person ground-air hybrid starfish vessel, both seen in The Last Exile. Of course, airships don't fit in a D&D Iron Age economy very much, as most people wouldn't be able to keep up with fuel costs.

YEEEESSS I was thinking of Last Exile when reading these rules. Although a vanship might work (if it would have to be a little larger), the starfish fighters were advanced technology.

[pawsplay]

A couple suggestions:
-Provide alternate costs in terms of BP. So when combined with Kingdom building rules, a group ruling a Kingdom can get access to airships relatively easily. Players might not have 100k gold to throw around on an airship, but a mid-sized kingdom can pretty easily spare 5-10 BP to get an airship. You could also go a bit further and provide some rules for using airships in mass combat.


Costs in BP is something I have thought about. It does raise some interesting questions how the components and upgrades would be priced. Any thoughts on that?



-Provide a feat similar to Landlord from stronghold builder's guide. Yeah giving players an extra 100,000gp is usually going to result in them buying magic items and still not getting an airship. But letting a player spend a feat to pick up an effectively free airship that scales with their level is totally cool.


I like that idea. It's not something that made it into this draft but seems like a good option for mid-to-high level campaigns.



Mechanics-wise, like I said I got bored pretty much as soon as I saw the intent wasn't to give players ways to get airships, because at that point the costs don't even really matter.


The intent is for players to get airships. As the rules are written, low-level characters can't afford them, by design. In my thinking, low-level PCs are more likely to be the crew or passengers. There is also a Trait in the book that makes a PC into a shareholder of a ship. And, of course, the GM can provide one as treasure or loot.

What do you think about a "cheap airships" campaign option? Cutting costs to 10% would make airships a lot more accessible. It does mean a lot of options would then seem comparatively worse, of course. But it might be interesting to run a campaign where sailing ships are costly luxury goods rather than transportation.



But skimming through it seemed like airship speeds are really slow, regardless of size. While a mega flying fortress should probably be pretty slow, having rules for smaller very fast airships would be awesome. Think fighter planes instead of aircraft carriers.

With the exception of the sample dirigible (based on the UC airship and suitable for just about any fantasy campaign), most of the sample airships can break 100 mph. The Waraxe can hit 200 mph. :)

[Seerow]

With the exception of the sample dirigible (based on the UC airship and suitable for just about any fantasy campaign), most of the sample airships can break 100 mph. The Waraxe can hit 200 mph. :)


I will take it as a side effect of me skimming then. I'll take a more in depth look at stuff later.


Costs in BP is something I have thought about. It does raise some interesting questions how the components and upgrades would be priced. Any thoughts on that?


I'd recommend making custom built airships for a Kingdom be something like a large flagship, and stat up a few generic airships that are cheaper BPwise and can be bought in relative bulk for an airship fleet. Like a small fleet of generic airships (so 25-50 airships) should be doable for a similar cost to a colossal flying cavalry unit (2000 units). You can get a 2000 strong griffon cavalry unit for ~90-100bp, getting a unit of 25 small-mid size air ships shouldn't cost much more than that, and should be about as effective.


The intent is for players to get airships. As the rules are written, low-level characters can't afford them, by design. In my thinking, low-level PCs are more likely to be the crew or passengers. There is also a Trait in the book that makes a PC into a shareholder of a ship. And, of course, the GM can provide one as treasure or loot.


The problem with a super valuable airship as treasure or loot is that PCs are likely to sell it and go buy magic items. It's a constant problem with wealth by level stuff. It's one of the reasons I really liked the downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign, because they let players get personal buildings for really cheap costs (most of the buildings range between 500-2000gp), which is cheap enough that selling it won't get the PCs a new fancy item, so they're more likely to hold onto it and invest in it.

A campaign option for dropping all of the prices to 10% I think would be good. That could be placed as an option alongside the BP costs and Airship Owner feats (actually if you go with 1 feat = 2 traits... and already have a trait to make you a shareholder in a ship, you could tune it such that 2-4 players could invest a trait into shareholder and together start with their own airship, and from there it works similarly to the feat. So the party can spread the cost around and not blow a feat on it if they want).

[stack]

The important question is when do we see sample art? Definitely in favor of quality over quantity art wise, lots of potential here.

[(Un)Inspired]

The important question is when do we see sample art? Definitely in favor of quality over quantity art wise, lots of potential here.

My thoughts exactly

[Kaidinah]

Color me interested. I look forward seeing how this turns out.

[ghanjrho]

Indeed. Very interesting. I definitely think some options to let lower level characters get access to airships is a good idea. I'd probably try to peg a good point of entry around 6th-8th level, at least for the default rules.

[AGrinningCat]

I'll have to hide this from my players.

[Tvtyrant]

Let me make sure I understand the engines. So the cost of an engine is multiplied by the total number of "skytons" that the ship has/carries?

[pawsplay]

It's per power factor. You do need enough power factors to lift your tonnage.

[Ironsides]

I would suggest changing one of the profession traits to something like this.

Airship Academy Graduate [Social Trait]
You family was able to send you to a local academy before you joined a crew. Your education helps in your new vocation.

Benefit: Select one of the following professions: Profession (Airship Sailor),or Profession (Airship Engineer), Profession (Airship Navigator), or Profession (Airship Pilot). You receive one bonus skill point per level that must be spent on that chosen Profession skill. The chosen Profession is always a class skill for you.

Some classes are very skill point starved and people would definitely take this trait if they wanted to be useful in that profession. This helps with the problem of people choosing to be good either on their ship or everywhere else.

Also I want to second the proposal for a vanship (1-4 PCS). Your PC's may be couriers getting a vital piece of intelligence to their superiors, fighter pilots escorting bombers to their target, fighter pilots sent from an Airship carrier to stop those #%$* bombers, or someone who just wants their own (small) ship. I would make it something cheep but limited carrying capacity like it can carry up to 500 LBS (subtract pilots and navigators weight from this) and cost around 2-8000 gps but as they go along they can upgrade different aspects of their vanship.

http://www.asiakattz.se/_modeller/Vanship/VS1008.jpg

Proposed Vanship Feat

Heirloom Ship

You begin the game with your father's old vanship. Its battered and worn and only you know how to use it properly. No other creature would dare use your ship and treat it as if it has the Wrecked Condition if they do try to pilot it. This starting ship can only be sold for scrap (it’s worth 5d10 gp when sold). With 1000 gp of upgrades it loses the Wrecked Condition if someone else tries to pilot it.

[Tvtyrant]

It's per power factor. You do need enough power factors to lift your tonnage.

So a 100 power factor energy engine would cost 450,000 GP? That seems steep.

[stack]

Will the final release be complete with a shiny spreadsheet for building ships? I've seen some decent fan-made kingdom-building sheets, seems to me that airship building would benefit greatly. Complex sheet though.

Started building a simple on for my own use. Even a 40 ton dirigible with decent speed that handles like a drunken pig is over 100,000 GP. The engine costs are killer, to get decent speeds out of anything without a semi-rigid dirigible you pay out the nose. Going to play with it a bit more, see what the most basic hot air balloon with sails costs.

[stack]

Got a 4 ton semi-rigid dirigible, no propulsion, so only moves with sails, to a cost of 3600 GP, 4600 GP with air oars. Not terribly useful as it tops out at about 15 MPH.

edit - basic military vessel before weapons, oil burning 20 power factor, iron hull, enclosed deck, no rigging, 50,400 GP, top speed 32 MPH.

[(Un)Inspired]

Got a 4 ton semi-rigid dirigible, no propulsion, so only moves with sails, to a cost of 3600 GP, 4600 GP with air oars. Not terribly useful as it tops out at about 15 MPH.

edit - basic military vessel before weapons, oil burning 20 power factor, iron hull, enclosed deck, no rigging, 50,400 GP, top speed 32 MPH.

Animate it and teleport or shadow walk it where you need it to be. Then just hang out in your swinging airborne bachelor pad. 36 hundred GP isn't too bad for a condo with a view.

[stack]

Was there a camouflage enchantment anywhere in there? Vessels don't actually make stealth checks, I don't think, so the easiest thing would be to make the shadow enchantment line apply the stealth bonus to the perception DC. (I want to build the Normandy from Mass Effect, so stealth mode is necessary, perhaps with and additional form of non-detection)

I also want to put glamored on my hull, for entertainment purposes, even if I'm not sure how it would work.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Got a 4 ton semi-rigid dirigible, no propulsion, so only moves with sails, to a cost of 3600 GP, 4600 GP with air oars. Not terribly useful as it tops out at about 15 MPH.

Combine it with 500-1kgp, single-passenger gliders and I think this is exactly what's needed for low level characters.

[Fouredged Sword]

At that price, it would see use. 15MPH is fast enough to be useful and being able to float up and draw good maps from a stable platform would be plenty worth the cost for many wealthy kingdoms.

[GilesTheCleric]

The list of materials doesn't seem to allow for any materials other than the listed ones to be used to make hulls. Can you add a calculation for other unusual materials that have a cost/weight given?

In the engines section, there don't seem to be any allowances for mechanical engines. A Bottle of Air aimed at sails, a rudimentary steam engine with a Decanter of Endless Water and a furnace, waterwheel or propellers manipulated by manpower, or even more magical "mechanical" engines, like a winch system of immovable rods, spelljamming/portal-hopping, waterwheel or props manipulated by unseen servants/mage hand, etc. It looked like propellers are under piloting components, but for something like a zeppelin that stays aloft by itself, props can be an engine rather than just a maneuverability tool.

I didn't read through every word of the the document, but kept seeing the term "critical slot". It seems like this is another name for "hardpoint", yes? If it is, then why not go with hardpoint? Critical slot makes it sound like something has to go there, or that the ship can't function without it, or that the slot gets some sort of special ability or something. I stopped at seeing the "Mounting Weapons" heading on 112, but that section didn't say anything about critical slots. I'm sure it's explained somewhere in the document.

There's a whole bunch of tables about inclimate weather and other perils in the first 50-odd pages; are you planning on having all of those tables merged and summed up somewhere for ease of reference?

Lastly, do you mind sharing a list of sources that you're already looked at (Stronghold Builder's Guide, Arms and Equipment Guide, etc), so that we don't recommend you look at them when you already have?

[ghanjrho]

The tables are all reprinted at the end of the doc.

[Ironsides]

I am having trouble finding this bit of information is 1 Power Factor = to 1 ton of lift? I found it.

I just want to say that I find the engine costs for these ships to be unreasonably high. I would cut the costs of the engines by 50%-90% of what they are now. I calculated how much cost of the engines of the Dragonship to its stated cost. The wood-burning engines cost 627,000 gps for 418 power factor which is 94% of the final cost of the 665,440 gps ship. Also wood-burning engines are the cheapest engines you can get. I would significantly lower prices for the engines or add alternate rules stating that you can lower the costs of the engines by X amount. You can think of it as the commonality of firearms in your campaign like the Paizo did for firearms. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/firearms) Otherwise I wouldn't imagine much of anyone besides countries or major shipping guilds even owning one of these things.

Very Rare Airships: I would leave the engine prices where they are. Maybe a very powerful country would own one. (This is what I would consider the current pricing to be.)

Emerging Airships: Engines cost 50% of listed price. Airships are primarily military vehicles but maybe a powerful merchant house owns one or two.

Commonplace Airships: Engines cost 25% of listed price. Airships have been around for many years and commercial air-shipping is a viable means of making wealth.

Airships Everywhere: Engines cost 5-10% of listed price. Airships would be everywhere and wouldn't it be awesome.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You know... I've seen a lot of that material before, in particular the section on engines, arcane, elemental and the antimatter.. err Energy Engine that uses positive and negative energy. Oh yes there it is Airships by Sam Witt published by Bastion Press.

[Eox]

You know... I've seen a lot of that material before, in particular the section on engines, arcane, elemental and the antimatter.. err Energy Engine that uses positive and negative energy. Oh yes there it is Airships by Sam Witt published by Bastion Press.

Airships is OGL and credited on the last page, from the looks of it everything that could be considered "Brand identity" has rightfully been stripped (Ship descriptions, etc.) I'd say it'd be wise to give them more than a passing mention considering how much of the content is lifted though.

[pawsplay]

Airships, by Bastion Press, is an amazing book in scope and detail. It's a small world, and before this project began, DSP asked Bastion Press if they had any further plans for Airships, to which they said no. Airships is almost entirely 100% OGL, and I took care to strip out any direct references to the Oathbound setting.

Basically, I used that book as a starting point, updating from 3.0 to the rules engine used by Pathfinder. Then I harmonized the rules with the vehicles system found in Ultimate Combat. Finally, I made some adjustments based on my experiences with the system and to provide greater overall coherence. This playtest will show how good a job I did.

One thing I looked at changing was going from (power factors - tons) to (power factors/tons) as the basis for acceleration. I ended up scrapping that idea because it required a lot of other changes. It also meant that, at the top end, I had math like 75,000 power factors divided by 500 tons. However, one thing I'm hearing is that many people are wanting smaller, fast ships to be somewhat more affordable. That may be one way of tackling that. It probably won't affect PCs too much if the cost of the very largest airships goes up somewhat, by compensation. How do you all feel about division, rather than subtraction? It also adds a splash of, ahem, realism. (Yes, I know we're talking about ships that fly.)

[Ilorin Lorati]

Personally I'm fine with small, slow ships being the cheap ones, and small, fast ships being more expensive. As long as the division doesn't need to happen mid-combat, I'm fine with whatever is needed to get the system as flexible as necessary.

[yakri]

Initial thoughts: 200mph max speed seems low, and I don't like max speed in general. I'll probably bump it to like 1400mph for my first playtest with this material

Engines stop working at 500ft? That makes no sense at all. Try more like 6,000ft+

Maybe normal opperations would be more like 1000ft, but 500 is very very low even for a normal zepplin, let alone a magically powered airship.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

My problem with the pricing is that at the higher levels, you're dealing with enough wealth to make the Tippyverse possible. If you want to match the airship from UC up, remember it had: no fuel requirements, and ridiculously easy piloting. Since it didn't have rules for an engine, it was made super-easy to maintain. Also, carried a fair amount of cargo.

[Tvtyrant]

My problem with the pricing is that at the higher levels, you're dealing with enough wealth to make the Tippyverse possible. If you want to match the airship from UC up, remember it had: no fuel requirements, and ridiculously easy piloting. Since it didn't have rules for an engine, it was made super-easy to maintain. Also, carried a fair amount of cargo.

Yeah after a certain point it becomes cheaper to buy Spelljammer Helms, which have much bigger ships.

[pawsplay]

Although there are other ways of getting thrust, such as propellers and turbines, all of the airship engines are based on using some kind of magical or alchemical process to turn a kind of energy into motive power. Some of the feedback I've heard is that some folks are interested in mechanical engines, magical spouts, and so forth. What would you think of the idea of offering different types of engines, including the reactor types already described, but also mechanical engines, levitationals, mechanical, anti-grav, and so forth? What about airships pulled by creatures?

[yakri]

if you were going to do that I would consider grouping engine types by themes where each theme has a fairly full featured set of engines, then suggest DMs pick one or more groups of engines based on the intended feel of their campaign

[stack]

I think it would complicate my spreadsheet.:smalltongue:

[pawsplay]

I was definitely thinking in terms of themes. Most of the existing types would be "reactors," I guess. The anti-grav template would go under a "levitational" type. Props and turbines would still be piloting aids but you could have a "mechanical type" if your airship is primarily moved by mechanical action.


I think it would complicate my spreadsheet.:smalltongue:

I feel your pain. :smallamused:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I can't find it right now, but there is also a mythic spell intended to make floating cities. I'll find it later, but it was intended for collaborative groups of wizards to power.

Edit: Found it, Imbue With Flight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/fire-mountain-games/imbue-with-flight). For some reason its under 3rd party publishing, but its in Mythic Origins. A toned-down version of the magic the Shory used to make flying cities, but with eight uses of Mythic Power (which can be shared), it could give a Colossal object a fly speed of 40 (average), under one caster's control, using his Fly skill.

[stack]

Two questions: do altitude cap increases stack?

When I get my spreadsheet in a form someone other than me could use, should I put it online and post a link?

[pawsplay]

Two questions: do altitude cap increases stack?


High Flying
Benefit: The first time this template is applied to an airship, the vessel'’s maximum cruising altitude
is increased to 1,500 feet. The template may be applied more than once, but subsequent applications,
while costing the same and reducing the speed and maneuverability of the vessel, only increase the
cruising altitude by 250 feet.

So, yes.

[stack]

I meant between high flying, air elemental engines, etc.

Also, thoughts on the spreadsheet question?

[pawsplay]

I meant between high flying, air elemental engines, etc.


As written, the air elemental engine and the high flying adjustments don't stack. I think that should probably be changed.



Also, thoughts on the spreadsheet question?

You might ask Andreas about that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I will say that 500 feet seems really low as a maximum height. I mean, that's well below the cloud layer most of the time, which is one of the instantly recognizable visuals associated with airships: a majestic ship emerging from the clouds. Also rules out mountaintop communities from most airship services. I mean, its not even enough to get altitude sickness (5,000 feet), which I would think would be equivalent to seasickness in airmen.

[Milo v3]

Going to watch this, even though I've never seen an airship system I've liked. Though, the playtest document seems to crash each time I attempt to go into viewing mode. Hopefully there will be some way to get elementals to be both power-sources and pilots simultaneously.


If they have Fantasy Physics and Fantasy Engineering as skills, I'm sold.
I think that'd be covered by Knowledge (Engineering).

EDIT: Just skimming, but I am really hoping that some engines can ignore the 500 ft. height thing, since I'm struggling to see how it would effect multiple engine types.

2 What's with the "No airship can travel at more than 200 mph." thing?

3 Profession (Airship Sailor), Profession (Airship Engineer), Profession (Airship Navigator), Profession (Airship Pilot), etc.. Really? They're so... niche.... painfully niche.

4 IMO, you should abstract the fuel as part of the engine.

5 Is there going to be a way to extrapolate in other materials for hulls?

6 Shouldn't crystal be equal in cost to iron, according to the psionics rules?

7 Add in psychic engines.

8 Would lightning elementals and plasma elementals (wyrd's or something, forget their name) use the air or fire elemental engine rules?

9 I'd like to suggest a non-evil version of the vampiric engine for celestials and celestial-to-be petitioners to use, where the fuel has to be willing.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Actually, yeah. I thought there should be all sorts of aligned engines; maybe even a Djinni engine. Entropic engines for pirates, Axiomatic engines that prevent their ships from smuggling, Celestial engines that can only do charitable missions. Also, am I the only one that thinks the Elemental engines are just a tad evil...?

[stack]

I can see speed limits for certain types of airship. A semi-rigid would tear itself apart going at half that speed. The altitude restrictions could use some modification, I agree.

pawsplay - I'll look for Andreas' contact info of the site I guess.

[Milo v3]

Also, am I the only one that thinks the Elemental engines are just a tad evil...?
Just use Planar Ally rather than Planar Binding, makes it a service rather than servitude.

[pawsplay]

The hit points and hardness of common materials were created by reverse-engineering from the UC vehicles rules. The unusual materials I basically estimated in relation to the common materials. You can always do the same! If there are some specific materials you think should be included, let me know. I'm also open to ideas for enhancing existing options so they are more distinctive.

The crystal hull, as currently written, is probably not exactly like the alchemically treated crystal that can be used in place of metal in weapons, although it is probably not entirely dissimilar, either. I'll look at that again; maybe it should be the same.


I can see speed limits for certain types of airship. A semi-rigid would tear itself apart going at half that speed. The altitude restrictions could use some modification, I agree.


It's an area where the source material provided a simple and usable limitation. It does make sense for the rigging and lift options to factor into that. In the case of more aerodynamic airships, it may be a non-issue if I change acceleration to a ratio rather than an arithmetic difference. I am increasingly inclined to do that, even with the challenges it presented during development.

[Milo v3]

Well from Ultimate Equipments material list your missing: Silver (or alchemical silver), Blood Crystal, Cold Iron, Darkwood, Elysian Bronze, Fire-Forged Steel, Frost-Forged Steel, Greenwood, Griffon mane (even though it wouldn't be suitable for hull material, it would be perfect material for magic sails), Living steel, whip wood, and wyrwood.

[pawsplay]

Obviously, alchemical silver would come in handy if you needed to ram a giant werewolf. :smallcool:

[Prime32]

Obviously, alchemical silver would come in handy if you needed to ram a giant werewolf. :smallcool:...I want to play in this campaign.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I was thinking about how I'd insert airships into the campaign I have been working on, and I realized that it would be really fun to have Thriae and Formian (B4 monsters) hive-ships. Would have to do some finagling with crew, but...

[pawsplay]

Okay, formian hive-engines are going in as a possible power source.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I was thinking of a crew that all shared the Formian's hive mind. Would make command much easier...

[Ironsides]

One thing I looked at changing was going from (power factors - tons) to (power factors/tons) as the basis for acceleration. I ended up scrapping that idea because it required a lot of other changes. It also meant that, at the top end, I had math like 75,000 power factors divided by 500 tons. However, one thing I'm hearing is that many people are wanting smaller, fast ships to be somewhat more affordable. That may be one way of tackling that. It probably won't affect PCs too much if the cost of the very largest airships goes up somewhat, by compensation. How do you all feel about division, rather than subtraction? It also adds a splash of, ahem, realism. (Yes, I know we're talking about ships that fly.)

I like realism but to me Simplicity>Realism. D20 can simulate stuff pretty well but it isn't a computer program, people are the ones who have to manually crunch the numbers it is way to easy to over complicate stuff in d20.

[(Un)Inspired]

Obviously, alchemical silver would come in handy if you needed to ram a giant werewolf. :smallcool:

Yes! Like, a Godzilla sized werewolf? Didn't Rampage have one of those? What a cool idea.

There needs to be monsters stated up in this guide for airships to fight.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes! Like, a Godzilla sized werewolf? Didn't Rampage have one of those? What a cool idea.

There needs to be monsters stated up in this guide for airships to fight.

Storm/Cloud Giant sky chariots pulled by Rocs...

[stack]

Too much complexity added to a complex rule-set is a significant danger to watch out for. With that said, I am going to propose complications!

Regarding max speed, it seems certain components should have max speeds, while the bonuses from others should not apply beyond certain thresholds. Airoars and sails shouldn't be doing anything if your engines cruise you along at 150 mph. No semi-rigid dirigible should be going over 100 or so (I see a reference to the Hindenburg doing 84 mph, which would apply to rigid dirigibles)

Found this online: "The highest speed officially measured for an airship, according to the Federation Aeronautique Internationale (FAI), is 112 km/h (69.6 mph), by Steve Fossett (USA) flying a Zeppelin Luftshifftechnik LZ N07-100 airship on 27 October 2004 over Friedrichshafen, Germany. The large rigid airships built by the USA and Germany in the 1920s and 30s could reach higher speeds (up to 140 km/h or 87 mph according to some sources), but these were never officially measured to FAI standards." (www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/fastest-speed-for-an-airship)

Maybe just cap dirigibles at 100 mph and have sails/oars stop helping above X mph?

[stack]

I don't see the listings for the actual size of the shipboard weapons in terms of tonnage, where is it?

[(Un)Inspired]

Storm/Cloud Giant sky chariots pulled by Rocs...

That does sound awesome but I'd love to see entirely new creatures that one might encounter while flying an airship.

Things like Skybwhales and air sharks and skarracuda (sky-barracuda). Ozone Elementals, stratosphere dragons, stuff like that.

[stack]

Andreas gave me the green light on the spreadsheet...

Now I have to finish the blasted thing. :smalleek:

[pawsplay]

Very cool.

[stack]

I don't see the listings for the actual size of the shipboard weapons in terms of tonnage, where is it?

This listed somewhere in the doc, or do we just assume based on size?

[pawsplay]

I don't see the listings for the actual size of the shipboard weapons in terms of tonnage, where is it?



This listed somewhere in the doc, or do we just assume based on size?

bottom of page 107

[stack]

which non-airship targets may well take cover. Note that a weapon' s arc of fire is not a function of its type, but of how it is mounted (see below).
Proficiency: Siege engines are exotic weapons. A creature with the Siege Engineer feat is proficient with all siege engines, including siege firearms. A creature that is proficient in firearms is also proficient in siege firearms, but not other siege engines.
Crew: The sheer size of a siege engine often necessitates a crew for its use. One person of that crew is the crew leader. Usually the crew leader targets or controls the movement of a siege engine; sometimes the crew leader does both. Often the crew leader is required to take actions and make specific checks in order for a siege engine to function. The rest of the crew members are required to spend actions and make checks in order for a siege engine to function.
Magical and Masterwork Siege Engines: Siege engines can be masterwork, increasing their Craft DC by 5 and costing an additional 300 gp. A masterwork siege engine can be enchanted at twice the cost for a normal magical weapon. The enhancement bonus of a siege engine applies on attack rolls and targeting checks (in the case of indirect ranged siege engines), and in the case of magical spell engines, the enhancement bonus also applies on damage rolls.
Defense and Hit Points: All siege engines are objects. A siege engine has a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty) and a further penalty based on its size. Each type of siege engine has its own hardness and hit points.
Moving Siege Engines: Airship weapons must be disassembled to be moved. Otherwise, they move with the ship to which they are mounted.
Ranged Attacks: Unlike normal ranged weapons, siege engines do not deal half damage when attacking objects.
Critical Hits: When a direct-fire siege engine or a close assault siege engine scores a critical hit, it confirms the critical and deals critical hit damage just like any other weapon. If an indirect-fire ranged siege engine rolls a natural 20 on its targeting check, it can also score a critical hit. The crew leader must re-roll the targeting check to confirm the critical. If the confirmation targeting check is successful, the attack is a critical hit, and the siege engine multiplies its damage by its critical multiplier. Unlike normal attacks, siege engines attacks can deal critical hit damage to objects. Siege engines do not gain the benefit of critical feats the crew or the crew leader may have. Critical hits against airships are handled differently; see the Aerial Combat chapter.
Mishaps and Misfires: Rolling a natural 1 on an attack roll or a targeting check made by an indirect-fire ranged siege engine produces a mishap. Usually, a mishap applies the broken condition. A non-firearm siege engine with the broken condition takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, targeting checks, and damage rolls. It also moves at half its normal speed.
If the creature that serves as crew leader has the Siege Engineer feat, that creature does not generate a mishap on a natural 1 when firing the siege engine.
Firearm siege weapons do not gain a mishap on a natural 1, but instead have a misfire value, like other firearms do. An attack roll or targeting check that falls within the misfire range causes the firearm siege engine to misfire. A misfire always misses, and applies the broken condition to the siege engine firearm. A firearm siege weapon with the broken condition takes all of the penalties and limitations that non-firearm siege engines do, and the misfire range of the firearm siege engine is increased by 4. If the firearm siege engine already has the broken condition when it misfires, it explodes. When a firearm siege engine explodes, it deals its damage to all creatures within a blast range (those within the blast

Where?

[pawsplay]

Sorry, my pagination may be off. I forgot there are small differences with the Drive version. It's the first sentence of Siege Weapons for Airships.

[stack]

So a cannon, which a large character (or a medium one with powerful build), can fire form the shoulder, takes up 8 tons of space? Is this including space for the weapon crew and such? If it is, it really should vary more from weapon to weapon, as a light ballista (1 crew) and a razer launcher (5 crew) occupy the same tonnage. If it is just the weapon and operator, then 8 seems punitively high, denying even basic weapons to small airships (the lower half of the huge category).

[ghanjrho]

So a cannon, which a large character (or a medium one with powerful build), can fire form the shoulder, takes up 8 tons of space? Is this including space for the weapon crew and such? If it is, it really should vary more from weapon to weapon, as a light ballista (1 crew) and a razer launcher (5 crew) occupy the same tonnage. If it is just the weapon and operator, then 8 seems punitively high, denying even basic weapons to small airships (the lower half of the huge category).

Remember that each airship-ton is a 5'x5'x5' cube. So 8 tons is a 10'x10'x10' cube, which hardly seems unreasonable.

[stack]

It also adds up vary quickly. I am no expert in matters nautical, but I doubt a ship of the line gave an entire ten foot cube to every gun.

[Kaidinah]

I am going to give you disclosure. I already put $100 into Skybourne’s kickstarter, so I probably am not going to buy this book since their book is built with their campaign setting in mind. That won’t stop me from giving you my 100% truthful feedback. I read your whole playtest document, and this is what I think:

A lot of this book feels a little too much like a simulation to me. There are a lot of rules for a lot of things, and I think that some sections probably aren’t needed. The system feels more complicated than Rogue Trader’s space ship combat system.
The 500 foot height limit goes against many of the common perceptions of airships, from early Final Fantasy games, to the more recent Girl Genius webcomic. There should probably be a section somewhere that changes this rule based on the setting, just like how airship prices should change with setting.

Airship weapons also deal low damage. The strongest one deals 36 damage on an average role. A 24 ton wooden ship has 360 hp and 5 hardness. I can say from personal experience that this is not fun. Ship combat from Paizo’s Skulls and Shackles was played with the vehicle rules. Plinking away at a ship for 20 turns was never fun. Eventually, our group decided to ditch all ranged combat, and force boarding as early as possible to make this element of the game disappear. We weren’t happy getting a cannon because it still did no damage.

For geographical navigation, I noticed that knowledge (geography) was not included. I believe it would make sense as a good 3rd option. In fact, it feels like it applies to most rolls located in the Geographical Navigation section. Same with overland navigation and celestial navigation. Knowledge (Geography) specifically states that it covers astronomy too. Actually, as I read I realize Knowledge (Geography) could be used in many other sections as a third possible skill to roll.

Speaking of skills, having 4 different Profession (Airship X) doesn’t feel right. I think Profession (Air Sailor) could replace pilot and navigator with no complaints. Profession (Sailor) does almost everything in sea ship stuff.

I love the section that explains the different kinds of crewman and officers. This is really useful for most people who will use the book.

Archetypes are very cool! I especially like the Wind Singer, but I think its Air Shanty should get some kind of clause such as “He can extend this duration to 1 hour by playing for 5 consecutive rounds.” Also his bonus to knowledge (geography) would be much more useful if the above suggested changes are made to navigation.

Airship subdomain is simple, but it is exactly what it needed to be.

I think I recognize some of the “new rogue talents” from some Paizo books. Did you mean to say recommended?

The Aerial Saboteur is quite cool! Though I think you should be more liberal with its class features. For instance, its bomb class feature should probably have scaling uses equal to their level + intelligence modifier, and have its damage dice stack with any damage dice gotten from alchemist levels. Currently, their Mayhem stacks with any sneak attack dice from previous rogue levels, but alchemist bombs are kind of hosed. Currently, an alchemist gives up a lot to take this archetype, so throwing them a bone here shouldn’t be a problem. Also, a good fortitude save wouldn’t hurt. I would reduce the disable device prerequisite to 5, so that the class can be enjoyed for a good portion of the campaign instead of the very end.

The Ship Mage requires you to take Arcane Strike, so I think some text that lets it count its entire Ship Mage level towards its caster level for arcane strike is warranted, considering how many spell levels are lost. Also its capstone is very strong, but entirely defensive. It might never get to see use in some games, and people might leave the class past level 9 for it.

I can’t help but feel that Sky Slayer has really really steep feat requirements. Deadly Aim, Power Attack, and Vital Strike all for one prestige class? Vital strike also pushes the minimum level up since it’s basically a 7th level feat. I don’t know if this steps outside your bounds, but I think the Sky Slayer could be a very cool initiating prestige class, bridging this project to another DSP product.

The traits all seem solid. While usually adding more than a trait normally adds, their bonuses are far more situational. Good design calls here.

The spells, such as Earthen Conversion, Storm Prow, and Call Thermal are all very cool. I love the spell support.

Magic items are very cool, with Kestrel being an invaluable enchantment to any archer.

Gotta love that appendix! Perfect for learning all the terminology, and perfect for scanning and printing out one for all your players.

[pawsplay]

I have concerns about "plinking" as well. However, those damage values come from UC, and at the end of the day, a cannon is a cannon. The critical slot system is intended, in part, to mitigate this problem.

I spent a lot of effort on integrating the Aerial Saboteur's bomb ability. My concern was properly scaling the ability for non-alchemists. However, letting mayhem add to alchemist bombs is a straightforward change. I'll look at that some more.

Thanks for the in-depth analysis!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think its a nice balance. On the one hand, I wouldn't expect airship battles to be as short as on-foot battles, but on the other hand, it makes the actual attrition of battle exciting. Might I suggest some variety of item or spell that allows someone to teleport back to a ship, even if its in motion? Unless its line-of-sight, normal teleportation spells don't work since the ship is in motion.

On a sillier aside, an expensive ship addon could be something like Star Trek's transporters that work on a similar function. Maybe they can't teleport to another ship with the same addon because of conflicting energies? At the costs you're dealing with, a teleport trap is practically a drop in the bucket.

Also, where can I find how many passengers/how much cargo a ship can carry?

[Kaidinah]

As someone who has played a few ship battles with Paizo vehicles larger than 25 tons (Sailing ships had something like 900 hitpoints and 5 hardness), there is no excitement in the attrition. Waiting for your ships to slowly whittle away at eachother's HP is not fun. Keeping in mind that cannons are expensive, and that there is limited weapon space on ships, you really will take upwards of 20 to 30 rounds for anything meaningful to happen.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I meant attrition from the critical slots. And if cannons are expensive, just fill out the weapons with ballistae. Keep in mind prices of siege firearms/other equipment may go down depending on what rules for firearms are for the world. For example, with Commonplace Guns they are 25%, and an explosive satchel would be 250 gp. 25 gp if its made by someone with gunsmithing.

[pawsplay]

Also, where can I find how many passengers/how much cargo a ship can carry?

Under Space Needed by the Crew and Officers, you have a range from 1 to 16 tons, and passengers "get what they pay for." I could whip up a table menu if that would be helpful. You can figure on about 1 ton for steerage, 2 tons for a bunk, 4 tons for a private room, 8 tons for fine traveling conditions.

The section on Trade gives cash value per ton for a wide variety of goods. You can squeeze cargo into any unused below-deck space, at about 500 lbs. of weight per airship ton. There aren't specific rules for carrying very heavy freight, something that I should perhaps address. If you overload an airship with something heavy, the extra weight would probably amount to an extra airship ton per ton occupied.

[stack]

Alpha spreadsheet here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qLg9qUhP9NB1FIIGRz8zXMWpeeFTWckg_eg3LijNgWM/edit?usp=sharing). Haven't checked all the functionality after the move to google and almost certainly needs fixes, but I'm tired of working on it at the moment and want to see people use it.

[ghanjrho]

Alpha spreadsheet here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qLg9qUhP9NB1FIIGRz8zXMWpeeFTWckg_eg3LijNgWM/edit?usp=sharing). Haven't checked all the functionality after the move to google and almost certainly needs fixes, but I'm tired of working on it at the moment and want to see people use it.

Are you sure you enable use? It's only letting me comment.

[stack]

I figured people would save a copy and use it. I didn't want to have people accidentally break a formula for everyone. This way you can make a copy for each ship you want to build. I should have clarified that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The reference to Spain's gold rush in the Trade is amusing, since I believe the very same crashed their economy.

So let me get this straight: Cargo space is (Total ship tonnage) - (crew cabin space, weapon space, etc)?

[Tvtyrant]

Alpha spreadsheet here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qLg9qUhP9NB1FIIGRz8zXMWpeeFTWckg_eg3LijNgWM/edit?usp=sharing). Haven't checked all the functionality after the move to google and almost certainly needs fixes, but I'm tired of working on it at the moment and want to see people use it.

It seems to break if tonnage goes up to 1,000. The size seems to become something other than colossal, which the cost cannot register.

[stack]

I believe that is the max for 'normal' ships, so I haven't accounted for higher yet. Thought about how, then never got back to it. I'll try to fix it when I get a chance, thanks for the catch.

[pawsplay]

Wow! The feedback we have received has been tremendous. Thank you for taking the time to read the material. We will be using your valuable comments as a guide as we revise the rules. Perhaps more importantly, we have a better idea of where we want to go with expanding campaign options.

This concludes this phase of the open playtest. If you want to offer any final additional comments, please do so. We now enter another round of development. I'll pop up later in the year with more news.

Thank you all so much! Salud,
- RJ

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I did another big readthrough of the document, and I know the playtest is over, but I think I found some points I would like to say:

1) airships are amazing The prices are actually alright in most cases; expensive yes, but not ridiculous. Instead of a near-global reduction, though, the only thing I think needs slashing are the engine prices. Also, raising the flight celieng, and some more clarification on that (do they go down when flying at max height and hitting a valley? Are mountains just slightly more dangerous speedbumps?)

2) Alternative methods of piloting/crew. At the very least, I think a mention should be made of alternative methods to both piloting or crew requirements. Yeah, a wizard could hire crew... or he could invent a spell to consolidate need for crew. Mass Unseen Servant or similar? Also, some more support for more spell lists for the spells would be interesting.

3) Well, actually, these are just some cool ideas I had. Ideas for more hazards that would deal with airships: a section for GMs on encounters involving airships that aren't just bad weather or pirates, stuff like flying monsters, haunted ships, intelligent ships... I would really really like ye olde HAL 9000. Maybe some offense-oriented spells; a spell that lets you vampirize another ship's power factors, or other some unique form of battlefield control.

Some things I definitely want to try out: a sloop of war that is build for speed and manueverability before size

[Milo v3]

I hope that Engines don't get forgotten by DSP. I mean, if you have a magic power source, why limit it to only one type of device.