Rogue/Ranger Build Help.

[Takamari]

Its me again. Turns out that the dervish didn't pan out...alas. They need a rogue and I wanted to multi-class my favorite combo, the rogue ranger. I think that combination compliments each other very well. I'm stuck on feats, and any help would be great.

I'm Rogue 5/Ranger 4, and will be playing the archer.

H. Point Blank Shot
1. Precise Shot
3. Canny Sniper (my DM's version of the Swift Hunter so that rogue sneak attack and ranger favored enemy continue to progress, did I mention I have a nice DM, sometimes)
6.???
9.???

I was thinking of picking up Ranged Disarm at 6th and I'm still stuck with my 9th level feat. Any advise on other feats. I can think of some, but I want to know what others think.

Other ideas: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initative, Luck of heroes at 1st.

[Takamari]

17 Views and not a single suggestion...I'm almost hurt, lol. Come on People.

:D

[Lolzords]

Hmm, I don't have any advice for you. However, a coincidence, I'm multiclassing my ranger to rouge next level. Kind of coincidence?

Maybe?

[Takamari]

I like the build. Since it is a dungeon delve game, I'm passing on urban tracking, otherwise, I play the bounty hunter type. I don't believe in coincidence, it is simply great minds thinking alike!

[Flawless]

Take the peerless archer PrC from Silver Marches if you have a nice DM. It has full BAB and sneak attak progression (although, only for ranged attacks) and you get to use power attack with your bow and eventually you will be threatening squares with your bow as with a polearm (glaive, ranseur. etc.) Really nice for those sneak attacks, as you now can flank. And you get AoOs.

[Thelion]

Improving the chance to attack your enemies while they're still flat-footed is ALWAYS a good thing, I would recommend Improved Initiative!

[Rad]

another vote for Improved initiative here!

[Ranis]

Ranged Pin is much, much, much better than Ranged Disarm.

[Telonius]

If you don't mind my asking, why Ranger4? I would say cap out the Ranger levels at 2 or 3, unless you take it out to 6 for Improved Combat Style. Level 4 doesn't give you much, unless you're planning to use your Animal Companion as Fido the Flanker.

[Takamari]

Ranger 4 gives me access to spells. I agree on Improved initative, so I've still got one left. If I were full ranger, I'd take improved Rapid Shot, but that isn't an option

[Telonius]

Honestly, the Ranger spells aren't all that useful, in my experience. First, you'll have to have a Wisdom of at least 12 (gaining one extra spell per day)to use any of them at all. Even then, you will get a grand total of one spell per day. Now, one is much better than zero, but take a look at the spells you'll have available to you. They aren't all that terrific. Resist Energy is probably the best of the bunch. But that spell can also be cast by your Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Paladin.

If you really, really want spellcasting, take a level of Druid or some kind of Nature-related Cleric instead of that fourth Ranger level. It'll get you more spellcasting slots than Ranger would, and will help out with your puny Will save. Druid in particular would be great, since it'd also give you the animal companion you'd have gotten at fourth level Ranger.

[Person_Man]

I don't have any suggestions because its a weird and generally sub-optimal combination.

The main benefit of taking Rogue (as opposed to some other Skill Monkey class) is Sneak Attack. By combining it with some other Skill Monkey class, you screw your Sneak Attack progression.

The main benefit of Ranger is that its a full BAB specialized Skill Monkey and half-caster that gets a lot of help from the Spell compedium. By combining it with Rogue, you screw your BAB, your spells, and your animal companion.

May I ask what you want to do with this build?

[Takamari]

I'm taking Ranger for the BAB and the flavor. The Ranger also gets Hunters Mercy, Snipers Shot, and Arrow Mind, all really good spells. I'm trying to keep my classes ballanced as well.

The group just kicked out the guy playing the Scout/Ranger. My character is built to fill that void, and since I know the classes so much better than mr. x, I'm trying to make a character that isn't the exact same. I know the two are really close and it is a problem for me, but its what the party needs.

I was planning to go rogue 10/ranger 10. I have not seen a good PrC that I have access to, maybe the Order of the Bow Initiate, so I'm stuck in base classes, but thats ok. I'm just at a loss for feats.

I could rotate my feats and take luck of heroes for a bit better saves and a small bonus to AC. Two weapon fighting would be handy for when the enemies close on me or I'm stuck in close quarter, though thats what Arrow Mind is for, and I figure I'm going to pick up a light shild to compinsate for my horrible AC. I've got my combat feats: Point Blank, Rapid, Prescice, so I'm looking for something else. I've considered Weapon Focus, but again, I'm not sure it is really worth it.

*goes back to books grumbling*

[Takamari]

Person Man, I know it is a little wierd, but not that sub optimal. Like I said, I have a nice DM that allows a feat that lets my rogue and ranger levels stack for the purposes of sneak attack and favored enemy. Yes, my Base Attack isn't that great, but at level 9 it is +7/+2. I'm using a +2 morphing longbow, so I'm getting a +14/+9 to my attacks. I know that isn't that great, but as a straight rogue, I wouldn't get better.

The group is in a dungeon and has NO rogue. They cannot even find magic traps. I think this build is actually good multi-classing rogues, since search, spot, listen, hide, and move silently are on both lists. Rangers get enough skill points to buy the cross class open lock, UMD, and disable device that it isn't a problem.

I view this character as a sniper type character. I shoot them, getting my 1d8+5+9d6 sneak attack, then beat them on initative and do it again, three more times. For non combat, I'm looking at the skill monkey.

Oh, and I lose the animal companion for the Distracting Shot alternate class feature. Ranger Animal companions suck-I've played druids. There is no comparison.

[Indon]

Rapid Shot isn't a bad feat; it's one extra attack on a full attack in exchange for -2 to all your other attacks (Oh, hey, it's the original Snap Kick, isn't it?).

[Takamari]

Already have rapid shot as a bonus feat from ranger. I just Read The woodland archer tactical feat...it sounds interesting, but nothing as good as elusive target.

[Person_Man]

Then I would just go with Rogue 1/Ranger 19. That way you get full Sneak Attack and 19/20 of all your BAB, Ranger spells, animal companion, etc.

As long as you're getting Sneak Attack from your Houserule feat, there's really no other reason to take levels of Rogue.

For feats, consider Able Learner, Greater Manyshot and its many pre-reqs. That way you won't have any Skill problems, and you can apply Sneak Attack to all of your arrows.

If you want a real animal companion, I would suggest being a Whisper Gnome with a medium sized companion that you Ride. You can also take the Natural Bond feat from Comp Adventurer, Exalted Companion from Book of Exalted Deeds, and/or Totem Companion from Eberron.

[Takamari]

Normally, you would be correct, but that is really, and I do mean really cheesy. My dm would punish me for trying to get a full progression sneak attack that way. I'm looking for a fun character, and I like the abilities of each class.

Where do I find Greater Manyshot?

[Indon]

Well, at 10/10, at Rogue 10 you could grab Skill Mastery, which is IMO very nice (dice, uh, don't like me much so taking 10 is good for me).

You could take Improved Critical in your favored ranged weapon.

[Annarrkkii]

...and get an extra 5% chance to crit? Improved Critical is not that worthwhile for natural 20 weapons, in general.

Ditch the ranger. It's not worth it. Building a rogue that specializes in ranging is hurting yourself, as you can't flank to get your sneak attacks. If you're doing a Ranger x/Rogue x, go Ranger 6/Rog x/Dervish x. A TWF build is a much better idea for a Rogue/Ranger.

And never forget Tome of Battle. A swordsage level or two could provide you with a couple of useful Shadow Hand maneuvers, including, if you wait long enough, Assassin's Stance, which gives an extra 3d6 sneak attack, and things like Wolf Fang Strike, Child of Shadow, Fleshripper, and other useful moves.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First off, there's a simple Cleric spell called Find Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm) which gives the Cleric Trapfinding. So unless the party has no cleric, there's no particular desperate need for it.

Furthermore, if your party's main tank has many levels in Barbarian, he won't CARE about traps, due to Trap Sense and D12 hit die. To be blunt, he'll either make his save, or soak the effect.

Either way, there is absolutley no need for a Rogue for Trapfinding.

Rogues are Skillmonkeys. That's their job. Trapfinding is part of being a Skillmonky, but not the whole thing.

If you want a ranger who can spot locks, then go Rogue1/Ranger XX. Blow a feat on Talented to make two cross-class skills class skills and choose Open Locks and Disable Device as your two skills. Rangers get 6+int mod skills, you can afford it. They already get Search, Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Hide as class skills. Grab Survival as well so you can do all the nature and track stuff. With an Int over 14, you should be able to keep close to max ranks in all of these.

Going up equal in rogue and ranger is just asking for trouble. You're watering down both classes without getting many benifits from either one.

Having said that, from Complete Warrior, the PrC Order of the Bow Initiate sounds like it's right up your alley. +1d8/2 levels if you're sniping with a single ranged attack, with Sharp Shooting as a free feat, negates the AoO for shooting a bow in melee, free Greater Weapon Focus, and the capstone ability lets you sneak attack/precise shot out to 60'.

Of course, the feat Crossbow Sniper from PhB II also lets you hit targets out to 60' with a sneak attack as well, so that isn't so uber.

EDIT: And getting Improved Critical for a Bow is VERY good. Why? Your crit chance goes from 5% to 10%, a 50% increase in crit rating. Your crit multiplier of X3 will love you for being able to be used twice as much.

[Annarrkkii]

Crossbow Sniper is actually sweat—combine it with Rapid Reload to full attack away with a light crossbow, adding 1/2 your Dex to damage, and being able to peg targets out to 60 ft. with sneak attack and the like.

And, incidentally, 5% to 10% is a 100% increase in rating. Now, instead of 1 out of every 20 shots, 1 out of every 10 crits. At mid-levels, that's a crit threat every 3.33 rounds, and high attack bonus means you're liable to confirm. But it still isn't that great. An ability that allows you to do something once every 10 rounds isn't so great. Improved Critical really shines with things like Scimitars or even Longswords, where it's an increase from 10% to 20%, or 15% to 30%. Sure, it's only x2, but that's x2 every 1.33 rounds, if you dual wield.

[Takamari]

I guess this build gets no love, lol. I was looking into changing it up a little. Taking Rogue 3/ Ranger 6. And using Deadeye Shot with Manyshot. I'm not looking for optimization. If I were, I'd go straight fighter archer that goes into order of the bow, or play the cleric archer. Besides, I maxed UMD and have a wand of invisibility and some scrolls of Improved Invisibility for when my wizard doesn't show me love.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Crossbow Sniper is actually sweat—combine it with Rapid Reload to full attack away with a light crossbow, adding 1/2 your Dex to damage, and being able to peg targets out to 60 ft. with sneak attack and the like.

And, incidentally, 5% to 10% is a 100% increase in rating. Now, instead of 1 out of every 20 shots, 1 out of every 10 crits. At mid-levels, that's a crit threat every 3.33 rounds, and high attack bonus means you're liable to confirm. But it still isn't that great. An ability that allows you to do something once every 10 rounds isn't so great. Improved Critical really shines with things like Scimitars or even Longswords, where it's an increase from 10% to 20%, or 15% to 30%. Sure, it's only x2, but that's x2 every 1.33 rounds, if you dual wield.

I disagree... with X3 or X4 weapons, it is in every way advantagous for you to get Improved Critical.

Consider if you will, you're not just doubling, but tripling or even quadrupling the damage your weapon does on a confirmed critical. With an X3 weapon, you're doing just 1.5X as much damage as a X2 weapon, which puts a 20/X3 weapon with improved critical now 19-20/X3 at the same crit damage as a 19-20/X2 now 18-20/X2. An X4 weapon, likewise, does as much crit damage as an 18-20/X2 weapon when both are Improved Critical'd.

It's no more or less effective on X3 or X4 weapons than it is 19-20/X2 or 18-20/X2, however I will agree that 20/X2 weapons should not bother with Improved Critical.

[storybookknight]

Ranger/Rogue isn't really all that bad... looking at it another way, you're a fighter/rogue gish that specializes in light armor and (in your case) rapid archery.

Do you have access to Complete Scoundrel? You could take some Ambush feats.

[Annarrkkii]

Hmph. Fine. Burn your level 9 slot on Improved Critical. See if I care. :P

Anyway, Ambush feats might be a worthwhile plan, but it doesn't look like he's planning on going high enough with the rogue to dabble in the ones that are worth it for an archer. Other than Merciful Strike (a "meh" ability, at best), he only qualifies for Throat Punch with Rogue 3, which is not going to help him in the least.

I can't stress enough that you are giving up a large number of sneak attacks by choosing to range instead of melee. With a ranged weapon, flanking is out of the question, meaning you have to rely on flat-footed foes to add in the extra 2d6 damage. If you're only going Rogue for skill monkeying, I'd strongly advise switching out for Scout. While Scout is mediocre class, in many cases, it works decently as a Manyshot Archer, since you can continue to use its abilities throughout the combat. You could also look into Improved Skirmish from Complete Scoundrel, if you think you can afford to move 20 ft. every round. It grants trapfinding, so you're set there, as well.

Rogues and archery tend to mesh with far less satisfaction than one would hope.

EDIT: Nevermind. Forgot about his custom feat. In that case, Persistent Attack is a nice choice, since your number of sneak attacks would otherwise be limited. Impeding Strike is also a possibility if you have a trip/disarm guru in the party.

[Takamari]

Persistaent Attack, Impeding strike? what book?

[Person_Man]

Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot) is right in the SRD. Even though its in the Psionic section, its a normal feat. Every archer build should have it.

Your build isn't getting any love because it doesn't make any crunch sense. No clever feat choices can fix that. If you want to play a Rogue, play a Rogue. If you want to play a Ranger, play a Ranger. If you want to play some combination of the two, play a Scout or the UA variant Wilderness Rogue (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#wilderness-rogue) or Urban Ranger (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#urban-ranger). Or find a PrC you like. Or if you want a Rogue 10/Ranger 10 and don't care about what people think, that's fine too.

But don't expect people to accept something that's plainly a bad idea.

[Takamari]

Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot) is right in the SRD. Even though its in the Psionic section, its a normal feat. Every archer build should have it.

Your build isn't getting any love because it doesn't make any crunch sense. No clever feat choices can fix that. If you want to play a Rogue, play a Rogue. If you want to play a Ranger, play a Ranger. If you want to play some combination of the two, play a Scout or the UA variant Wilderness Rogue (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#wilderness-rogue) or Urban Ranger (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#urban-ranger). Or find a PrC you like. Or if you want a Rogue 10/Ranger 10 and don't care about what people think, that's fine too.

But don't expect people to accept something that's plainly a bad idea.

I know it isn't crunched. I didn't mean it to be. I actually like the concept and I don't care too much about what everyone else thinks either. I have seen many other builds that sound like a plainly bad idea and people have a blast playing them.

I'm not asking how to crunch this character. I can read and I am fairly canny when it comes to putting things together, so I can crunch and munch just about anything given the time and books. I'm just looking for advise and thoughts about this build.

Though, Thanks Person, I had never seen improved Manyshot, and that is a really good feat! My build is already stronger because of it. Ha Ha!

So this is what I'm going to do:

Rogue 3/Ranger 4

stats: 16/20/14/16/14/12

+2 Morphing Mighty (3) Composite Longbow +15/+10 1d8+5

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Swift Hunter (DM Varient) lets rogue and ranger levels stack for sneak attack
and favored enemy
Deadeye Shot
Improved Manyshot

*Track, Endurance, Rapid Shot, Manyshot

I know it isn't optimized, but thats it. I don't think it looks too bad, what does everyone else say?

Oh, and is the Morphing enhancement worth it? I figured for a standard action, I dont' need to drop my bow to get my sword AND I keep my enhancement bonus...

[Takamari]

Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot) is right in the SRD. Even though its in the Psionic section, its a normal feat. Every archer build should have it.

Your build isn't getting any love because it doesn't make any crunch sense. No clever feat choices can fix that. If you want to play a Rogue, play a Rogue. If you want to play a Ranger, play a Ranger. If you want to play some combination of the two, play a Scout or the UA variant Wilderness Rogue (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#wilderness-rogue) or Urban Ranger (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#urban-ranger). Or find a PrC you like. Or if you want a Rogue 10/Ranger 10 and don't care about what people think, that's fine too.

But don't expect people to accept something that's plainly a bad idea.

I know it isn't crunched. I didn't mean it to be. I actually like the concept and I don't care too much about what everyone else thinks either. I have seen many other builds that sound like a plainly bad idea and people have a blast playing them.

I'm not asking how to crunch this character. I can read and I am fairly canny when it comes to putting things together, so I can crunch and munch just about anything given the time and books. I'm just looking for advise and thoughts about this build.

Though, Thanks Person, I had never seen improved Manyshot, and that is a really good feat! My build is already stronger because of it. Ha Ha!

So this is what I'm going to do:

Rogue 3/Ranger 4

stats: 16/20/14/16/14/12

+2 Morphing Mighty (3) Composite Longbow +15/+10 1d8+5

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Swift Hunter (DM Varient) lets rogue and ranger levels stack for sneak attack
and favored enemy
Deadeye Shot
Improved Manyshot

*Track, Endurance, Rapid Shot, Manyshot

I know it isn't optimized, but thats it. I don't think it looks too bad, what does everyone else say?

Oh, and is the Morphing enhancement worth it? I figured for a standard action, I dont' need to drop my bow to get my sword AND I keep my enhancement bonus...

[Takamari]

*$%^ GRRRR....Double post, sorry everyone!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, for feat ideas...

Crossbow Sniper is good. 60' range for Sneak Attacks is a VERY good thing. It's in PhB II.

I'd also suggest you grab Improved Precise Shot (from the PhB) as soon as it's available. Negate concealment or cover modifiers on anything less than total cover/concealment, permanently? Sign me up! And if negating that isn't good enough, concealment/cover normally negates sneak attacks, however this will penetrate just about everything short of a Cloak of Displacement or hiding completely being something. Plus, the sheer cool-factor of seeing a Kobold stick his head out from behind a rock, at two hundred yards, and nailing him with a full round of attacks with uncanny accuracy, is worthy of bragging rights.

Improved Critical (longbow) is also a good idea. Double the Crit chance of your weapon.