Aging

[ruy343]

Question:

There are a handful of magic items and abilities that could age a character, and two classes that gain benefits that avoid aging, but I can't find rules on the detriments of aging anywhere. Does anyone know where I might look to find them?

[Easy_Lee]

Question:

There are a handful of magic items and abilities that could age a character, and two classes that gain benefits that avoid aging, but I can't find rules on the detriments of aging anywhere. Does anyone know where I might look to find them?

We used to have rules that said wisdom and charisma increased while CON, DEX, and STR decreased, leading to hearing and eyesight actually improving with age. I don't think that we have any rules for 5e, though. Presumably, d&d people are just as strong and durable as they were in their prime until their dying day.

[ruy343]

We used to have rules that said wisdom and charisma increased while CON, DEX, and STR decreased, leading to hearing and eyesight actually improving with age. I don't think that we have any rules for 5e, though. Presumably, d&d people are just as strong and durable as they were in their prime until their dying day.

So I haven't been the target of a Blindness/Deafness spell then...

That makes the age-negating abilities of the druid and monk a little lame if no other character is affected either...

[Knaight]

So I haven't been the target of a Blindness/Deafness spell then...

That makes the age-negating abilities of the druid and monk a little lame if no other character is affected either...

There are no discrete rules for it; that's not the same thing as characters not being affected. It's not something I'd have left entirely to the GM as a designer (given that there are explicit aging effects and class features about not aging), but that's how the 5e team did it. Generally I'd expect a heavy reintroduction of 3e style stat changes (at least in part), along with it being pretty common for really heavy duty aging to prove fatal.

[Easy_Lee]

There are no discrete rules for it; that's not the same thing as characters not being affected. It's not something I'd have left entirely to the GM as a designer (given that there are explicit aging effects and class features about not aging), but that's how the 5e team did it. Generally I'd expect a heavy reintroduction of 3e style stat changes (at least in part), along with it being pretty common for really heavy duty aging to prove fatal.

To be fair, aging is a balance concern. Old age affects a barbarian more than it affects a wizard. A truly comprehensive list of debilitating aging effects, including slowed healing, hearing loss, waning eyesight, reduced stamina and speed, and requiring longer and more frequent rests may not be good for the game.

That said, a healthy diet and plenty of exercise and delay and reduce the negative effects of aging in real life, so perhaps characters in D&D just take that to an extreme.

[Ralanr]

To be fair, aging is a balance concern. Old age affects a barbarian more than it affects a wizard. A truly comprehensive list of debilitating aging effects, including slowed healing, hearing loss, waning eyesight, reduced stamina and speed, and requiring longer and more frequent rests may not be good for the game.

That said, a healthy diet and plenty of exercise and delay and reduce the negative effects of aging in real life, so perhaps characters in D&D just take that to an extreme.

Speaking of barbarians, maybe aging doesn't affect scores that break the cap? Just a thought.

[Knaight]

To be fair, aging is a balance concern. Old age affects a barbarian more than it affects a wizard. A truly comprehensive list of debilitating aging effects, including slowed healing, hearing loss, waning eyesight, reduced stamina and speed, and requiring longer and more frequent rests may not be good for the game.

That it's a balance concern is another reason it could afford to be codified - aging is in the rules, it warrants having mechanics, and the actual application of mechanics to aging is a bit of a delicate process.

[Rowan Wolf]

I could see more susceptibility to exhaustion being used as a mechanic and potentially a modified lingering wounds chart style for the effect of injuries, perhaps allowing magical healing to suppress, but not remove ailments from age.

[Chronos]

Quoth Easy_Lee:

Old age affects a barbarian more than it affects a wizard.
Tell that to Genghis Cohen.

(though I'm pretty sure that in 3e, he was actually mostly swordsage, not barbarian)

[Kiero]

All the older editions had rules on aging, usually based on fixed ages by race (I think the fixed business was heavily flawed, myself, you have people who age well and people who age badly).

If you want an example, I modified the standard aging from (B/X-derived) ACKS for my historical game (see here (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Tyche%27s_Favourites/Play#Aging_and_Death_.28p248.29)). I had a random roll (based on Hit Die) plus some constants (a fixed value for race, modified by Str and Con) which set your "Prime", which then told you when you'd change age categories. Point is healthy characters are affected by aging later than unhealthy ones.

Age effects were (these are my modified ones, making Middle Aged and Old less punitive):

Youth: -2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis
Middle Aged: -1 Dex, -1 Con
Old: -1 Str, -1 Dex, -1 Con, -1 Cha (Cumulative: -1 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, -1 Cha)
Ancient: -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha (Cumulative: -3 Str, -4 Dex, -4 Con, -3 Cha)

[Wartex1]

Intelligence and Wisdom would also suffer heavily due to genetic decay from the lack of telomeres.

[ChubbyRain]

In a fantasy game there is no reason to have aging rules. The veteran old fighter archetype or the really old man with,add should both be playable as a PC.

Just imagine if all old characters in fantasy stories/movies/games acted their age.

I could see a list of adv/disadv that you get when you become "really old" just to appease players.

Old (last 50% of race's lifespan)
Unless you have a unnatural ability score increase (magic item) or a feature that brings an ability score above the normal cap, your ability score cap is reduced to 18. Any class feature that breaks the cap now works as if the cap was 18.*

Really Old (last 25% of a race's lifespan)
Unless you have a unnatural ability score increase (magic item) or a feature that brings an ability score above the normal cap, your ability score cap is reduced to 16. Any class feature that breaks the cap now works as if the cap is 16.*

The barbarian feature that brings your scores to 24 would bring your scores to a maximum of 22 (old) and then 20 (really old).

[Gritmonger]

I could see more susceptibility to exhaustion being used as a mechanic and potentially a modified lingering wounds chart style for the effect of injuries, perhaps allowing magical healing to suppress, but not remove ailments from age.

Add "Age Category" or "Age Threshold" - pass one, you make a DC 12 + Age Category Constitution save. Start at "40" for humans, every five years is another Age Threshold. So at 40 it's 13, at 50 it's 15, at age 90 it's 23...

If you fail, you pick up a permanent Long-Term Insanity or an injury from the Lingering Injury table as well as losing 1d6 from maximum hit-points for every age category failed. After any combat, you make the same save to avoid exhaustion.

[Kiero]

Intelligence and Wisdom would also suffer heavily due to genetic decay from the lack of telomeres.

However, greater experience and exposure to the world would result in them going up, as well. It's no coincidence that the winners of various general and specialist knowledge quizzes are usually people in their 60s.

[Maxilian]

So I haven't been the target of a Blindness/Deafness spell then...

That makes the age-negating abilities of the druid and monk a little lame if no other character is affected either...

Well... in the end, for a long campaing, your character won't die, also there are some spells and curses that could change your age, in these way it won't affect you also... Arakocras don't live long, so they would really like these boost

[Chronos]

Kiero, why do you penalize Cha for age? Most people get more charismatic with age, not less. There's a reason why most politicians are old.

[Mr.Moron]

I wouldn't do aging penalties, but if I did I wouldn't want anything too fiddly with a bunch of +/-, too 3.P-esque.

I'd go with something like:

Ravages of Time
When you pass 50* Years of age, your body fails you at times.
If you are over 50, each time you take a long rest roll a d%. If the result is lower than your age in years you gain 1 age point, if it is less than half your age gain 1d3 age points.

When you make a strength or dexterity based roll skill check/save or an attack roll, you may choose to have disadvantage on that roll to remove one age point from yourself. If you are attacked you may choose to grant the attack advantage to remove one age point from yourself. (if the roll is particularly inconsequential the GM may rule the point can't removed in this manner)

When you make a strength or dexterity based skill check/save, or an attack roll, if you have 2 or more age points the GM may choose to remove 2 age points from you to impose disadvantage on the roll. If you are attack and have 2 or more age points, the GM may choose to remove 2 age points to grant the attacker advantage against you.

So long as you have one or more age points, you can't gain advantage on any rolls.

EDIT:
Variant:
Failing Mind
When you pass 70 years of age, your mind may begin to fail you at times.
Each time you take a long rest, roll a D%. if it is less than half your age you gain 1 "Foggy Mind" point. If it is less than 1 quarter your age gain 1d3 "Foggy Mind" points.

These work the same as aging points, but applying to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma based checks/saves rather than Strength & Dexterity based ones. They may also apply to saving throws imposed by your spells or abilities, in addition to attack rolls.

Finally, each time you would regain spells after a long rest for each "Foggy Mind" point you have (including the one gained at the start of that day) roll a d10. You lose 1 spell slot of each level equal to or above the number rolled. On a 10, you lose 1d3 spell slots of each level until the next time you take a long rest (roll for each level individually).

(example: you have 2 foggy mind points after a long rest, and roll a 2 and an 5. You lose 2 spell lots of level 5-9, and 1 spell slot of levels 2-4. You don't lose any 1st level slots).



*This is for human years. Other species would just have their age converted at some rate. Like a dwarf divides their age by 4 or 5 to get their age in "Human Years".

[Forum Explorer]

How often does aging come up in your games? It's pretty rare for most, beyond the end of a game.

But if I were asked to make a call on it, I'd implement lingering injuries (I like the concept so I would likely do that anyways), and then for each 'age category' I'd have the creature's healing (by all sources) be halved. So first age category is normal (adventuring age), second age category is 1/2 healing (retirement age), third age category is 1/4 healing (elderly), fourth age category is 1/8 healing (extremely old)

[Kiero]

Kiero, why do you penalize Cha for age? Most people get more charismatic with age, not less. There's a reason why most politicians are old.

I don't; ACKS/B/X does. I reduced it for Old Age (it's -2 as written), but I could see the argument that it shouldn't change at all. If not increase.

[DanyBallon]

On Wizard's forums, there's a similar topic, and someone thought about linking aging with exhaustion level. While the first level of exhaustion giving you disadvantage on your rolls, it's quite harsh on an adventurer and counter productive for a player who want to play a old age character for flavor.

So I thought, what if instead, when you reach a certain threshold, you need to make a % check at the end of each day of adventuring (i.e. 5% at 40, 50% at 60, 75% at 85,...) and if you fail you get an exhaustion level for the next day. It adds to any exhaustion level you may already have. A full day of rest let you remove one level of exhaustion. Each exhaustion level add +5% to the check DC.

P.S. Since this is a % check, advantage/disadvantage don't apply to the roll.

[Giant2005]

Kiero, why do you penalize Cha for age? Most people get more charismatic with age, not less. There's a reason why most politicians are old.

I disagree. There are entire tropes devoted to pointing out that people don't like to be around old people and I imagine that would be even more true in medieval times where modern conveniences designed to mask smells and such are less available.


On Wizard's forums, there's a similar topic, and someone thought about linking aging with exhaustion level. While the first level of exhaustion giving you disadvantage on your rolls, it's quite harsh on an adventurer and counter productive for a player who want to play a old age character for flavor.

So I thought, what if instead, when you reach a certain threshold, you need to make a % check at the end of each day of adventuring (i.e. 5% at 40, 50% at 60, 75% at 85,...) and if you fail you get an exhaustion level for the next day. It adds to any exhaustion level you may already have. A full day of rest let you remove one level of exhaustion. Each exhaustion level add +5% to the check DC.

P.S. Since this is a % check, advantage/disadvantage don't apply to the roll.

I quite like this but I think it would be better if the exhaustion checks happened far more rarely (The first starting at 60% of the character's lifespan and then another check after however many years it takes for every 5% of that character's lifespan). When lost those exhaustion levels are not recoverable until eventually they stack enough to kill the old person.

[DanyBallon]

I quite like this but I think it would be better if the exhaustion checks happened far more rarely (The first starting at 60% of the character's lifespan and then another check after however many years it takes for every 5% of that character's lifespan). When lost those exhaustion levels are not recoverable until eventually they stack enough to kill the old person.

The problem with permanent exhaustion level, is that the first level give you disadvantage on all your rolls, so it's quite harsh on someone who'd like to play an old hag of 60 years old. By having the check done at the end of an adventuring (working, training...) day, you get a chance to be exhausted the day after, but if you rest, then you'll be able to go adventuring again right after that, and if you decide to continue adventuring while exhausted, then you risk pushing yourself a bit too much, needing more recovery time.

[Giant2005]

The problem with permanent exhaustion level, is that the first level give you disadvantage on all your rolls, so it's quite harsh on someone who'd like to play an old hag of 60 years old. By having the check done at the end of an adventuring (working, training...) day, you get a chance to be exhausted the day after, but if you rest, then you'll be able to go adventuring again right after that, and if you decide to continue adventuring while exhausted, then you risk pushing yourself a bit too much, needing more recovery time.

Surely that old hag would have other advantages to compensate for it though right? Experience is the obvious one, unless that old person has gained no experience throughout their life... That campaign would probably have bigger issues than aging penalties.

[DanyBallon]

Surely that old hag would have other advantages to compensate for it though right? Experience is the obvious one, unless that old person has gained no experience throughout their life... That campaign would probably have bigger issues than aging penalties.
Not everyone starts their career at 20. Some character spent a lot of time in their "background" life prior to adventuring.
Best example, is Ezren, the Pathfinder iconic wizard, he started his career at 42.
Previous edition gave you bonus to metal stats, but penalties to physical stats, this was more profitable to spellcaster than martial classes. By doing temporary exhaustion, you simulate the effects of old age, but it's not too much penalizing the characters who can manage to stay put a day or two if he overtax himself one day (failing a % save).

[Malifice]

Quick solution:

I'll probably just drop 2 points from each physical stat, and 5' of movement at old age, then 4 more at venerable with another 5' of movement.

[Kiero]

Quick solution:

I'll probably just drop 2 points from each physical stat, and 5' of movement at old age, then 4 more at venerable with another 5' of movement.

It might be quick, but it's totally unrealistic. Strength doesn't actually decline that much (for men at least), unless you are completely idle in your old age. Flexibility and recovery do, but again their decline is governed by your activity levels. There are 70-year-old ballerinas who can still dance to a high standard, for example.

[Giant2005]

It might be quick, but it's totally unrealistic. Strength doesn't actually decline that much (for men at least), unless you are completely idle in your old age. Flexibility and recovery do, but again their decline is governed by your activity levels. There are 70-year-old ballerinas who can still dance to a high standard, for example.

You do realize why professional sportsmen retire so early right? That fact is even true in relatively less physically-inclined sports like cricket.
The simple truth is that old people just can't physically compete on the same level as equally skilled people in their prime. Stat reductions are the easiest way of representing that in DnD.

[Malifice]

It might be quick, but it's totally unrealistic. Strength doesn't actually decline that much (for men at least), unless you are completely idle in your old age. Flexibility and recovery do, but again their decline is governed by your activity levels. There are 70-year-old ballerinas who can still dance to a high standard, for example.

The higher level of those 70 year olds, and higher proficiency bonus in the dance skill, counteracts the stat loss.


As people age, their skeletal muscle mass starts to deteriorate. Your skeletal muscles (also known as lean muscle) are the muscles that attach to your bones and are under voluntary control.

As a result of deterioration, people begin to look, well, flabby as they get older. You may see these changes start as early as your 30s, but most people see the biggest changes between their 40s and 50s.

A recent study concluded that total muscle mass decreases by nearly 50 percent for people between the ages of 20 and 90. On average, people lose about 30 percent of their strength between ages 50 and 70, and another 30 percent of what's left per decade after that. Generally, people lose about 1 percent of their lean muscle mass per year after age 40.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/what-happens-to-aging-muscles.html

And:


Background:

The aim of this study was to investigate changes in muscle mass and strength after the 30th life year..

Patients & Methods:

for this analysis 26 participants were subdivided in two groups. Group 1 comprises participants aged <40 years (n=14), group 2 those >40 years (n=12).

We assessed anthropometrics, range of motions, leg circumferences and isometric strength values of the knee joints.

Conclusions:

aging process leads to distinct muscle mass and strength loss. Muscle strength declines from people aged <40 years to those >40 years between 16.6% and 40.9%.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940510/

[Kiero]

You do realize why professional sportsmen retire so early right? That fact is even true in relatively less physically-inclined sports like cricket.
The simple truth is that old people just can't physically compete on the same level as equally skilled people in their prime. Stat reductions are the easiest way of representing that in DnD.

It's not that simple. Often there are other factors, such as them not wanting to put the training hours in any more (see Steve Redgrave on his retirement from Olympic rowing) and wanting a slower pace of life. Additionally, some sports are just bad for you, injury-wise. Footballers, for example, pick up huge numbers of groin and knee injuries (some of it because they don't train properly and pay too little attention to their core)

Furthermore, we're not talking about them continuing to compete at the highest professional level, but rather than not turning decrepit in old age just because they're old. People who look after themselves don't decline that fast, or that far. Not everyone is the same, which, far too often, fixed, age-based modifiers imply.

[Knaight]

It's not that simple. Often there are other factors, such as them not wanting to put the training hours in any more (see Steve Redgrave on his retirement from Olympic rowing) and wanting a slower pace of life. Additionally, some sports are just bad for you, injury-wise. Footballers, for example, pick up huge numbers of groin and knee injuries (some of it because they don't train properly and pay too little attention to their core).
Then there's the other football, where the endless tackles will completely wreck ankles, cause severe head injuries, and probably take a decade off your lifespan. Getting a bit weaker and slower while aging is part of the reason people quit, but a big part is the sheer amount of permanent damage they pick up from the sport.

[ruy343]

Intelligence and Wisdom would also suffer heavily due to genetic decay from the lack of telomeres.

For the record, telomere shortening is really only a concern with cells that are dividing frequently. Neurons aren't among those cells.

One hypothesis is that stem cells, which are used to repair damage to various parts of your body because they can become any cell they are needed to be, begin to run out as telomeres shorten and they're exposed to a variety of mutagenic factors that make them less-viable. some believe that's why your skin wrinkles: there's not enough stem cells to replenish your collagen-producing cells to keep your skin as firm as in youth.

Neurons don't need to be replaced that often: they're strangely long-lived. Senility is caused by a buldup of unwanted cellular by-products, ingestion of neurodegenerative toxins, cells can die from lack of oxygen flow (lack of stem cells prevents blood vessel regeneration, potentially leading to small strokes, or sometimes it's idiopathic (meaning we don't know why it's caused in a particular individual).

Fun neuroanatomy fact: you're actually born with far more neurons than you have as an adult. They die off if they're not used within the brain. The neurons that die don't have important connections to external systems or thought processes, so only the important ones survive because they make connections to other neurons in real-time. This is believed to explain the reason why children can pick up on languages so easily, but adults struggle so much: There aren't neurons already making connections to speed up the process of learning!

[Kiero]

Then there's the other football, where the endless tackles will completely wreck ankles, cause severe head injuries, and probably take a decade off your lifespan. Getting a bit weaker and slower while aging is part of the reason people quit, but a big part is the sheer amount of permanent damage they pick up from the sport.

I didn't mention it, because it's rather specialist, but Muay Thai at a professional level is worse. Most professionals last 2-3 years before the damage to their shins means they can't fight any more, then they retire to coaching. I train Muay Thai, but I want to still be able to walk and continue training when I'm 50 and beyond, so I don't fight "full Thai" (meaning no shin pads).

[Clistenes]

I think the game designers didn't consider age a concern because they assumed most characters would start young and would either be ditched or reach 20th level before it would be a problem. Or they thought that the players wouldn't bother themselves with how age would affect their characters (if you want to roleplay somebody old, give him or her physical stats that aren't too high).

I wonder if they will introduce some lore about age-staving magic. Forgotten Realms is the new default world, and you can't throw a stone there without hitting somebody who has lived far beyond his/her natural lifespan thanks to magic.

[Thrasher92]

For the most part, I almost never run into an issue in regards to age in any campaign. Even when I send a character through multiple campaigns, it usually will amount to, at most, maybe 2 years or so.

However, I did have a character go from level 1 to 20 over several years (game time of course) and eventually earn himself an epic boon of immortality.

[Clistenes]

For the most part, I almost never run into an issue in regards to age in any campaign. Even when I send a character through multiple campaigns, it usually will amount to, at most, maybe 2 years or so.

However, I did have a character go from level 1 to 20 over several years (game time of course) and eventually earn himself an epic boon of immortality.

I guess the Epic Boon could be refluffed as one character researching the Elixir of Eternal Life or finding and drinking from the Fountain of Youth or something like that...

I have skimmed through the books and we have Potions of Longevity (dangerous and unreliable, not a solution in the long term), the Rod of Refuge (get two so you can spend all your life inside the Paradise demiplane and you will never age...it will get boring, however) and using True Polymorph to turn you into an Immortal Deva or Planetar at the price of losing all your hard-won class features and powers (Devas are weaker, but they can change their shape into your own so you can carry on with your life to some extent).

It sounds reasonable to allow 20 level characters to get some extraordinary magic and become immortal.

[Kane0]

I wonder if they will introduce some lore about age-staving magic. Forgotten Realms is the new default world, and you can't throw a stone there without hitting somebody who has lived far beyond his/her natural lifespan thanks to magic.

Say a 4th or 5th level transmutation spell that stops you from aging for 24 hours? And another that allows you to ignore the effects of age for 24 hours?
For one spell slot a day, you could be timeless. Unless you forget or run out of spell slots every now and again.