Max damage in single turn

[Paeleus]

So as the title says, what class/multi-class can deal the most damage in a single turn to any particular enemy. This can include conditionals within the turn, but should ignore all status effects from previous character's turns. No magic items bonuses to damage, just straight vanilla. Bonus points for keeping the character level as low as possible.

The best I can find is my current favorite build.

Fighter 11/Sorcerer 3
Battle Master/Wild Magic

Bonus action (quickened spell): Hold Person *target fails wisdom saving throw*

Great Weapon Master gives +10 damage/-5 to hit.

Triple attack with Great Sword

Apply 3 d10 maneuver die

Action Surge and triple attack once more applying remaining 2 d10 maneuver die.

The roll looks like 24d6+10d10+60+strength mod x6.

Plus, ability to reroll 1's and 2's if great weapon fighting style chosen.

[Easy_Lee]

I believe the general consensus was assassin 3, fighter 2, and vengeance paladin on a half orc. You action surge to get a huge number of critical smites vs. a surprised target, using great weapon mastery to get a bonus great axe attack and 10 damage extra per swing. The damage is 15d12 + 50 + smites and other modifiers

[Malifice]

Haste is third level is it not?

Try paladin 6/ fighter 3/ sorcerer 6/ assasin 3

(Assuming Crits via surprise), GWF, action surge, divine smite, haste cast, sup dice, attacking a fiend or undead, Str 20:

(20d6 + 75 + 60d8) + (4d6+15+10d8) + (8d8). Re roll 1 and 2.

Around 575 average damage. 850 maximum.

A flame tounge adds (24d6) to the above damage, pushing the average damage to around 670 and the maximum possible to around the 1000 mark.

Edit: Forgot an extra 5 per attack from charisma to damage, pushing the maximum over 1000. This requires rolled stats though as the class is feat starved.

Laughably, add in 2 more levels of sorc to 20th and it has 6th level spell slots, heavy armor prof, Cha to all saves, meta magic, expertise in 2 skills, lay on hands and cure wounds, chanel divinity, sneak attack, cunning action and can find and disarm traps.

A one man party.

[Person_Man]

Conjurer Wizard 2.

Look at the sun.

Use your Minor Conjuration ability to create 3 square feet of plasma. It has a temperature around 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit, which should definitely kill you and everyone remotely near you, and may possibly ignite the atmosphere and kill all life on the planet.

I win?

[Easy_Lee]

Conjurer Wizard 2.

Look at the sun.

Use your Minor Conjuration ability to create 3 square feet of plasma. It has a temperature around 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit, which should definitely kill you and everyone remotely near you, and may possibly ignite the atmosphere and kill all life on the planet.

I win?

Heh, yeah I've seen this one before. What followed was a discussion of what kind of universe FR is and whether the sun is actually a portal to the plane of fire.

[Person_Man]

Heh, yeah I've seen this one before. What followed was a discussion of what kind of universe FR is and whether the sun is actually a portal to the plane of fire.

Fair enough. Maybe I need to wait until I'm high enough level to use divination magic to see some Voldstone (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Voidstone). Or failing that, just cast Wish for infinite damage against my target, and accept whatever horrible Monkey's Paw consequences the DM inflicts on me.

[calebrus]

*counts off on all ten fingers*
Two. Not more than two.

[Malifice]

Is plasma an 'object' and doesn't the ability only conjure something 'in the form of' that object?

Putting aside the obvious RAI on that ability, how is it worded exactly?

[Easy_Lee]

Is plasma an 'object' and doesn't the ability only conjure something 'in the form of' that object?

Putting aside the obvious RAI on that ability, how is it worded exactly?

As I recall, it summons a magical replica of a nonmagical substance, reproducing all effects that the substance otherwise has. It does not specify that the substance cannot be used to damage a target, and one of the simplest uses of the ability is to conjure a magical weapon, such as a rapier.

In my opinion, they should have specified that the conjuration takes the desired shape but is made of a specific magical substance. As written, it's ripe for all kinds of abuse via summoning bombs, adamantite, poison, and basically anything not explicitly magical.

[Person_Man]

As I recall, it summons a magical replica of a nonmagical substance, reproducing all effects that the substance otherwise has. It does not specify that the substance cannot be used to damage a target, and one of the simplest uses of the ability is to conjure a magical weapon, such as a rapier.

In my opinion, they should have specified that the conjuration takes the desired shape but is made of a specific magical substance. As written, it's ripe for all kinds of abuse via summoning bombs, adamantite, poison, and basically anything not explicitly magical.

Yup. I would have preferred something like the Marvelous Pigments description. Must be common, non-magical, non-living, mundane, with a very limited gp value, and attempts to create anything valuable lead to shoddy replicas. Want to recreate a wagon or a weapon or tools? Fine. Want to create instant death? No.

[Tvtyrant]

As I recall, it summons a magical replica of a nonmagical substance, reproducing all effects that the substance otherwise has. It does not specify that the substance cannot be used to damage a target, and one of the simplest uses of the ability is to conjure a magical weapon, such as a rapier.

In my opinion, they should have specified that the conjuration takes the desired shape but is made of a specific magical substance. As written, it's ripe for all kinds of abuse via summoning bombs, adamantite, poison, and basically anything not explicitly magical.

So you can't summon a young girls heart (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuiNtC4kURk) with it. What is the point otherwise??!

[ChubbyRain]

Sorcerer with 9th level spells. Hold your action until your ally casts hold person/monster on the creature within 5' of you. Cast a full powered searing flame (is that the name? Damn...) at the target. Each attack auto hits as each attack is a critical hit. Each bolt will do double damage.

Have other party members hold their actions to perform whatever nova they want when that hold monster/person spell activates.

In one turn, technically, you will have done a crazy ton of damage.

I suggest Sorcerer (as above), Paladin (smite), Rogue (sneak attack), and Warlock (eldritch blast) for this trick.

[Malifice]

As I recall, it summons a magical replica of a nonmagical substance, reproducing all effects that the substance otherwise has. It does not specify that the substance cannot be used to damage a target, and one of the simplest uses of the ability is to conjure a magical weapon, such as a rapier.

In my opinion, they should have specified that the conjuration takes the desired shape but is made of a specific magical substance. As written, it's ripe for all kinds of abuse via summoning bombs, adamantite, poison, and basically anything not explicitly magical.

I assume the latter is inferred in the 'form of an object'.

Like - you could create a replica grenade that isn't an actual grenade, or something that looks like a hunk of plutonium without actualy being radioactive.

it turns rhe caster into effectively a walking 3D printer, substituting 'magical matter' for plastic. Magical matter being inert, stable and solid enough to be used effectively as a weapon.

The text is certainly broad enough to allow different interpretations, and the RAI itself is pretty clear.

Mileage may vary.

[Theodoxus]

cant sneak with spells

[Easy_Lee]

I assume the latter is inferred in the 'form of an object'.

Like - you could create a replica grenade that isn't an actual grenade, or something that looks like a hunk of plutonium without actualy being radioactive.

it turns rhe caster into effectively a walking 3D printer, substituting 'magical matter' for plastic. Magical matter being inert, stable and solid enough to be used effectively as a weapon.

The text is certainly broad enough to allow different interpretations, and the RAI itself is pretty clear.

Mileage may vary.

I'm more concerned about poison than anything. Say one conjures a whole vat of purple worm poison. The target dies, the poison disappears, and there's no way to tell what killed the victim.

So yeah, it's just one more thing for a DM to be mindful of. This forum ought to have a "Questionable RAW" sticky.

[calebrus]

The entire premise of the plasma argument is ridiculous anyway.
Plasma is not 10,000 degrees. Nothing is any temperature in and of itself, only by environmental effects does temperature come into play.
Plasma is a thing, yes, but it is not an exploding 10,000 degree thing. It's just a thing.
I have plasma in my blood. Do you see me spontaneously exploding and destroying the Earth?

[ChubbyRain]

cant sneak with spells
Do you mean my post? Cause the rogue would just attack a paralyzed creature and get an auto crit.

Each class would be level 20 and each would use an action to attack the paralyzed creature. But since they are using a reaction, it all happens on one turn.

:)

[Millface]

Do extra attacks stack when multiclassed?

[Alikat]

*counts off on all ten fingers*
Two. Not more than two.

I heart gully dwarves!

[Rowan Wolf]

Do extra attacks stack when multiclassed?

No. Basically only extra attack from the fighter class produces additional attack after the first extra one. The complete rule is found on page 164 of the players handbook*, under the Extra Attack section.

*That as with anything else in the game is subject to the house rules of the group playing. (Or the dreaded ask you DM)

[Jamesps]

The entire premise of the plasma argument is ridiculous anyway.

I have plasma in my blood. Do you see me spontaneously exploding and destroying the Earth?

Different definition of plasma. Physicists and biologists use the word for different things.

That said, plasma (physics plasma) is always very hot because it's a state of matter that only occurs at high temperatures.

[Theodoxus]

The entire premise of the plasma argument is ridiculous anyway.
Plasma is not 10,000 degrees. Nothing is any temperature in and of itself, only by environmental effects does temperature come into play.
Plasma is a thing, yes, but it is not an exploding 10,000 degree thing. It's just a thing.
I have plasma in my blood. Do you see me spontaneously exploding and destroying the Earth?

I hope you're being facetious, because elemental plasma and blood plasma are two completely different things (and states of matter)

Though conjuring corona material from the sun would indubitably be quite hot and deal a lot of damage. Conjuring the physical material type sans it being energized, would be less destructive - though I suppose having a small, but compressed sphere of pure hydrogen could be quite destructive if ignited / breathed before it dissipates... though I'd hate to have to calculate that using D&D physics.

[HoarsHalberd]

The entire premise of the plasma argument is ridiculous anyway.
Plasma is not 10,000 degrees. Nothing is any temperature in and of itself, only by environmental effects does temperature come into play.
Plasma is a thing, yes, but it is not an exploding 10,000 degree thing. It's just a thing.
I have plasma in my blood. Do you see me spontaneously exploding and destroying the Earth?

That's not the same kind of plasma. Plasma in physics terms is a gas ionised by heat and requires ridiculous heat. Plasma in the blood is just the liquid in your blood.

[Theodoxus]

Different definition of plasma. Physicists and biologists use the word for different things.

That said, plasma (physics plasma) is always very hot because it's a state of matter that only occurs at high temperatures.

High is relative. It's been proposed that lightsabers could be done with magnetic coils of plasma at temperatures barely hot enough to burn paper. So, yes, higher than you could stand, but significantly cooler than star matter.

[Jamesps]

I hope you're being facetious, because elemental plasma and blood plasma are two completely different things (and states of matter)

Though conjuring corona material from the sun would indubitably be quite hot and deal a lot of damage. Conjuring the physical material type sans it being energized, would be less destructive - though I suppose having a small, but compressed sphere of pure hydrogen could be quite destructive if ignited / breathed before it dissipates... though I'd hate to have to calculate that using D&D physics.

I think the compression is the key. Plasma is really really not dense, so if you conjured a standardized volume of it, it wouldn't do much. If you were conjuring some number of pounds (or kilograms) of it, it could be pretty destructive. I don't remember how the ability works though.

[Millface]

Haste is third level is it not?

Try paladin 6/ fighter 3/ sorcerer 6/ assasin 3

(Assuming Crits via surprise), GWF, action surge, divine smite, haste cast, sup dice, attacking a fiend or undead, Str 20:

(20d6 + 75 + 60d8) + (4d6+15+10d8) + (8d8). Re roll 1 and 2.

Around 575 average damage. 850 maximum.

A flame tounge adds (24d6) to the above damage, pushing the average damage to around 670 and the maximum possible to around the 1000 mark.

Edit: Forgot an extra 5 per attack from charisma to damage, pushing the maximum over 1000. This requires rolled stats though as the class is feat starved.

Laughably, add in 2 more levels of sorc to 20th and it has 6th level spell slots, heavy armor prof, Cha to all saves, meta magic, expertise in 2 skills, lay on hands and cure wounds, chanel divinity, sneak attack, cunning action and can find and disarm traps.

A one man party.

I'm seeing too many D8s there. You won't have that many spell slots would you? and none that boost each smite to 5d8. At level 6 you're looking at 16D8 total that you have for smites.

[Yuric the Bold]

Looking at the Sun does not give you the ability to summon plasma or coronal matter... lord thundering Zeus!
If you had a massive telescope and could witness the ejection of coronal matter... maybe just maybe as a plot device.

Go back to debating builds and how much E-peen you wield. It's more entertaining from the I don't care side of the seats.

I know this site is dedicated to helping the entire swath of the role-playing community; even the power gamers.

[Millface]

Ok, here's my epeen

15 Paladin/3 ass rogue/2 fighter

Great weapon master feat, surprise attack, with paladin Elemental weapon and Sacred Weapon on. 20 strength and Charisma, no magic items at all.

Accounting for spell slots I have available for smiting

3 great weapon attacks (because of GWM), all at -5 hit +10 damage and the 1d4 lets call it fire = 6D6+60+3D4 Add 3 divine smites used with two 4th level slots and one 3rd, thats 14D8, then another 3D8 for 3x improved divine smite.

Double for crits

12D6+60+6D4+34D8
Action Surge
Now this time I only have 1 3rd and 2 2nd Level Slots for my Divine Smite, so its 12D6+60+6D4+26D8

24D6+120+12D4+60D8 then your 4D6s for sneak which is once per turn


Grand Total: 60D8+28D6+12D4+120

220-816 with a garden variety Great Sword.

[Finieous]

How many humanoids can you fit in a 40-ft.-radius sphere?

[Easy_Lee]

Ok, here's my epeen

15 Paladin/3 ass rogue/2 fighter

"3 ass rogue" made me laugh more than it should have. This was the same one I suggested earlier. I think that we can take this one step further with a half orc and great axe.

[Person_Man]

I wonder if there's some Conjure Animals or Animate Objects shenanigans we're missing here. Fighter 2/Bard or Druid X should be able to flood the zone with minions that all attack on the same turn.

[Easy_Lee]

I wonder if there's some Conjure Animals or Animate Objects shenanigans we're missing here. Fighter 2/Bard or Druid X should be able to flood the zone with minions that all attack on the same turn.

Presumably, a dedicated finger of death zombie maker has infinite potential DPR.

[RulesJD]

I did the math and lost it, but there is a way to get higher fairly easily.

Held Target that is vulnerable to fire damage that you have hexed. Evocation Wizard 12/Red Dragon Sorc 6/Fighter 2/Elemental Affinity Fire/Max Cha and Int. Cast 9th level Scorching Ray from within 5ft of the target. Each ray will do 4d6+10 (Empowered Evocation + Red Dragon Sorc damage) and 2d6 Hex damage.

Each ray = 4*4 (elemental affinity)= 16 fire damage damage per ray = 32 fire damage against vulnerable target + 10 from Empowered Evocation + Red Dragon Sorc. Total average ray damage = 42 + 2d6 Hex = 49. That's 490 damage.

Action Surge to do it all over again as an 8th level spell. Total average damage would be 441. Total AVERAGE damage in a turn = 931.

There are ways to get higher with having a non-concentration bonus action to attack, but not bothered to calculate that at the moment.

[Fwiffo86]

Pretty sure that regardless of the source, you can only cast one spell (as a bonus action) and a cantrip (as a normal action) per turn.

No action surge.

No casting spells from items using "use item" because its actually casting the spell and thus must use the cast a spell action.

I could be wrong, and I smell an argument, but there it is.

[RulesJD]

Pretty sure that regardless of the source, you can only cast one spell (as a bonus action) and a cantrip (as a normal action) per turn.

No action surge.

No casting spells from items using "use item" because its actually casting the spell and thus must use the cast a spell action.

I could be wrong, and I smell an argument, but there it is.

My "added" damage was wrong because there wasn't enough levels for Overchannel. However, you are very wrong about everything you said. Action Surge = you can cast 2 spells on a turn because you are not using your Bonus action to cast a spell. Use Item can be used to activate an item.

Please read this: http://merricb.com/2015/04/21/the-attack-action-extra-attacks-and-other-attacks/

[Easy_Lee]

In the evocation wizard / Dragon sorcerer example above, I think that we could twin both rays and quicken a firebolt for higher theoretical damage, assuming we have enough sorcery points.

Edit: nope, bonus action not possible due to the rule discussed below. Twinning should be fine.

[Fwiffo86]

My "added" damage was wrong because there wasn't enough levels for Overchannel. However, you are very wrong about everything you said. Action Surge = you can cast 2 spells on a turn because you are not using your Bonus action to cast a spell. Use Item can be used to activate an item.

Please read this: http://merricb.com/2015/04/21/the-attack-action-extra-attacks-and-other-attacks/

As I said, an argument. Since attack spells (requiring attack rolls) actually fall under the "Cast a spell" action, I can see your thinking.

I did not see anything in the linked article that states clearly that you can cast two spells using action surge.

The following point that "Cast a spell" action is used when casting spells from items. That includes all items, and is not governed by the "use an item". Or at least, I don't think it does, as I have not seen clear rules governing this. I am AFB after all.

[Easy_Lee]

As I said, an argument. Since attack spells (requiring attack rolls) actually fall under the "Cast a spell" action, I can see your thinking.

I did not see anything in the linked article that states clearly that you can cast two spells using action surge.

The following point that "Cast a spell" action is used when casting spells from items. That includes all items, and is not governed by the "use an item". Or at least, I don't think it does, as I have not seen clear rules governing this. I am AFB after all.

Hmm, that could get tricky. From the free PDF, the rule in question prevents the casting of non cantrip spells in the same turn as a bonus action spell is cast. In other words, if you bonus action cast anything, you can only cast a cantrip with you action(s) that turn. So action surge is okay, twinning is okay, but the bonus action firebolt I suggested is not okay.

I always forget about this rule; it's a bit silly, particularly in this context.

[Doug Lampert]

Different definition of plasma. Physicists and biologists use the word for different things.

That said, plasma (physics plasma) is always very hot because it's a state of matter that only occurs at high temperatures.

What you are seeing when you look at the sun is also not very dense, because it's the outer layer of the sun's atmosphere basically.

http://www.smartconversion.com/otherInfo/Surface_pressure_of_planets_and_the_sun.aspx

Note that the sun's surface pressure is about 1/10,000th the pressure at the surface of the earth, so you summon some plasma.

The density difference is VASTLY larger as the Earth's atmosphere has a much lower temperature and much higher molecular mass.

So the plasma collapses under the vastly higher pressure of the earth's atmosphere (imploding rather than exploding), it cools because it mixes with a vastly larger, vastly denser atmosphere. Basically, you get a "pop" only slightly different from what you'd get from summoning a hard vacuum.

[Easy_Lee]

What you are seeing when you look at the sun is also not very dense, because it's the outer layer of the sun's atmosphere basically.

http://www.smartconversion.com/otherInfo/Surface_pressure_of_planets_and_the_sun.aspx

Note that the sun's surface pressure is about 1/10,000th the pressure at the surface of the earth, so you summon some plasma.

The density difference is VASTLY larger as the Earth's atmosphere has a much lower temperature and much higher molecular mass.

So the plasma collapses under the vastly higher pressure of the earth's atmosphere (imploding rather than exploding), it cools because it mixes with a vastly larger, vastly denser atmosphere. Basically, you get a "pop" only slightly different from what you'd get from summoning a hard vacuum.

Right, and the next step in the thread I remember was to use a divination spell to scry the sun's core, have a Cleric on hand to regenerate your poor, destroyed eyes, then just keep that memory in mind for when you feel like going boom. If you're high enough to create a clone, then it doesn't have to be suicide.

I don't think any DM would allow it, all things considered.

[MerricB]

I did not see anything in the linked article that states clearly that you can cast two spells using action surge.

The better article to reference is this one: http://merricb.com/2015/04/14/dd-5e-spellcasting-in-combat-clarifications-and-restrictions/

Action surge does allow you to cast two spells in a round, and both can be non-cantrips!

However, there's a weird interaction with bonus action spells, so that if you cast a bonus action spell and use action surge, both other spells must be cantrips!

(Jeremy Crawford has confirmed this; there are links in the article above).

Cheers!

[Easy_Lee]

The better article to reference is this one: http://merricb.com/2015/04/14/dd-5e-spellcasting-in-combat-clarifications-and-restrictions/

Action surge does allow you to cast two spells in a round, and both can be non-cantrips!

However, there's a weird interaction with bonus action spells, so that if you cast a bonus action spell and use action surge, both other spells must be cantrips!

(Jeremy Crawford has confirmed this; there are links in the article above).

Cheers!

Like I thought. Yeah, I still think that rule is weird. I'd probably ignore it, personally, but it's most certainly the RAW.

[RulesJD]

The only question is whether Haste permits you to cast a spell from an item through the Use an Object, such as a Staff of Fire or Ring of Spell Storing. So far that hasn't received any clarification. There is a question about whether "use your action" items differ from ones like the Ring of Spell Storing that do not require you to use your action.

[Giant2005]

No-one feels bad for ignoring the OP's "no pre-buffing" condition?

[ChubbyRain]

No-one feels bad for ignoring the OP's "no pre-buffing" condition?

Hey, I didn't ignore that. I don't think having a group use held action is "pre-buffing".

[Malifice]

I'm seeing too many D8s there. You won't have that many spell slots would you? and none that boost each smite to 5d8. At level 6 you're looking at 16D8 total that you have for smites.

Sorcerer 6/ Paladin 6 = 9th level caster. 5 slots of 4th and 5th level and one of 3rd.

Add an extra 6d8 for attacking an undead or fiend, and an extra 4d8 for BM.

Thats 39d8, doubled on a crit to 78d8 from smites and manouver dice alone.

Tack on 2 more levels of either Sorc or Paladin (to bring it to 20th) and you gain an extra 5th level slot increasin nova smite damage to a total of 80d8 on a crit from smites and superiority dice, plus 12d6 from weapon damage (doubled to 24d6 for crits) plus 120 damage from Charisma, Strength and GWM.

Youre also rerolling all the 1's and 2's.

Having a friendly Sorcerer nearby casting elemental weapon or getting yourself a flametongue adds a ton more.

[Paeleus]

I'm seeing too many D8s there. You won't have that many spell slots would you? and none that boost each smite to 5d8. At level 6 you're looking at 16D8 total that you have for smites.

That is what I'm seeing... Paladin seems super handy for nova damage. I guess two clerics are better than one. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, here's my epeen

15 Paladin/3 ass rogue/2 fighter

Great weapon master feat, surprise attack, with paladin Elemental weapon and Sacred Weapon on. 20 strength and Charisma, no magic items at all.

Accounting for spell slots I have available for smiting

3 great weapon attacks (because of GWM), all at -5 hit +10 damage and the 1d4 lets call it fire = 6D6+60+3D4 Add 3 divine smites used with two 4th level slots and one 3rd, thats 14D8, then another 3D8 for 3x improved divine smite.

Double for crits

12D6+60+6D4+34D8
Action Surge
Now this time I only have 1 3rd and 2 2nd Level Slots for my Divine Smite, so its 12D6+60+6D4+26D8

24D6+120+12D4+60D8 then your 4D6s for sneak which is once per turn


Grand Total: 60D8+28D6+12D4+120

220-816 with a garden variety Great Sword.

Very cool, but where are the crits coming from? Are they just assumed to be from godtier rolling?


"3 ass rogue" made me laugh more than it should have. This was the same one I suggested earlier. I think that we can take this one step further with a half orc and great axe.

lol me too


Pretty sure that regardless of the source, you can only cast one spell (as a bonus action) and a cantrip (as a normal action) per turn.

No action surge.

No casting spells from items using "use item" because its actually casting the spell and thus must use the cast a spell action.

I could be wrong, and I smell an argument, but there it is.

That would be correct sir. It's in the PHB.


No-one feels bad for ignoring the OP's "no pre-buffing" condition?

What mean? Like prefight or turn before prep? To get my crit damage on hits, my concentration is on Hold Person. Or does pally have a non-concentrate aura?


Sorcerer 6/ Paladin 6 = 9th level caster. 5 slots of 4th and 5th level and one of 3rd.

Add an extra 6d8 for attacking an undead or fiend, and an extra 4d8 for BM.

Thats 39d8, doubled on a crit to 78d8 from smites and manouver dice alone.

Tack on 2 more levels of either Sorc or Paladin (to bring it to 20th) and you gain an extra 5th level slot increasin nova smite damage to a total of 80d8 on a crit from smites and superiority dice, plus 12d6 from weapon damage (doubled to 24d6 for crits) plus 120 damage from Charisma, Strength and GWM.

Youre also rerolling all the 1's and 2's.

Having a friendly Sorcerer nearby casting elemental weapon or getting yourself a flametongue adds a ton more.

Sick. This is only aimed at the undead?

[calebrus]

I hope you're being facetious,

At least someone got it. :biggrin:

[Battlebooze]

Bard, 20th level, angry and mad at the world. Uses Wish to force everyone in the prime material plane to listen to his rendition of "A Kender's love song."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ira4vELy1iM

[Malifice]

Sick. This is only aimed at the undead?

Nah, you only add 12d8 vs undead (an extra 1d8 per attack from smite, doubled thanks to crits).

Assuming you have two friendly casters drop a Haste and an Elemental weapon on you before you sneak into the room and attack an undead creature, and you yourself cast hunters mark, (and you surprise your target for crits thanks to assassin) you wind up with:

6 attacks doing (6d6+12d8+6d4+23) each plus 8d8 from Superiority die. Adds up to a sum total of (36d6+80d8+36d4+138).

Maximum of 1138 damage. Around 770 damage on average.

Better as a half-orc with a greataxe:

6 attacks doing (3d12+2d6+12d8+6d4+23) each plus 8d8 from Superiority die. Sum total is (18d12+12d6+80d8+36d4+138).

That's around 1200 points of damage max.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

How many humanoids can you fit in a 40-ft.-radius sphere?
172.

I think the original post is asking for single target. Otherwise, yes, the answer to what does the most damage in one round is "meteor swarm", which can theoretically hit 688 creatures for an average of 140 damage each if they all fail their saves or 70 each if they all make them, doing either 96,320 or 48,160 damage.

But you're probably never going to be in a situation where you can hit that many creatures at once. At best, maybe if you fired on an army or a crowded marketplace you'd average 1 creature per 4 squares, for 24,080 or 12,040 damage. And even that's probably not going to come up too often, hilarious that level of damage output in one action is.

[Battlebooze]

Earthquake can do off the scale damage if you cast it at the right location. The collapse of multi-floor buildings crammed full of people could beat Meteorswarm by a huge margin.

[MrStabby]

Earthquake can do off the scale damage if you cast it at the right location. The collapse of multi-floor buildings crammed full of people could beat Meteorswarm by a huge margin.

This may depend on how long the building takes to fall. If it is ruled to be in the next round you might miss it.

Storm of vengeance is pretty good as well; it has about 10 times the area of meteor swarm so hits more targets. Unfortunately it is a 9th level spell so I cant think of many ways to boost its damage.

If you are allowing spells like hex, cast in previous turns to have an effect how about an extended delayed blast fireball as a contributing factor: 12+5+6=23d6 damage that requires ending concentration rather than an action or bonus action? With draconic background you could add 5 to this.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Earthquake can do off the scale damage if you cast it at the right location. The collapse of multi-floor buildings crammed full of people could beat Meteorswarm by a huge margin.

Most multi-floor structures in D&D are made out of stone. If item durability rules are anything like previous editions, 1 round of Earthquake isn't going to collapse them.

Storm of vengeance is pretty good as well; it has about 10 times the area of meteor swarm so hits more targets. Unfortunately it is a 9th level spell so I cant think of many ways to boost its damage.
It also suffers from doing 1/20th the damage per target the first round, so you'd need to have a lot of targets clustered under your storm. Still, you're theoretically right about potentially beating Meteor Swarm with enough creatures in the area, though it'll be even harder than getting close to full use out of Meteor Swarm.

[Battlebooze]

Most multi-floor structures in D&D are made out of stone. If item durability rules are anything like previous editions, 1 round of Earthquake isn't going to collapse them.


Damn, you're probably right.

Ok, here's another idea, deep into the realm of the insane.

20th level wizard, and some minimal prep time.

Wizard finds a really big room, with a very high ceiling. 99 and 1/2 feet high, if he can find it.

On the ceiling of the room he places a 7th level Glyph of warding, triggered when the floor is struck. He puts a level 7 Dispel magic in the Glyph that will target his own Reverse Gravity.

The wizard holds a big party, feeding everyone as he secretly plots to set the new most damage record. He makes sure there are no objects securely attached to the floor...

When the room is stuffed with people, he casts Reverse gravity on the center of the room. Everyone within a 50 foot radius goes up, takes 10d6, then falls back down for another 10d6.

It would at least be fun to watch. :D

[MrStabby]

Damn, you're probably right.

Ok, here's another idea, deep into the realm of the insane.

20th level wizard, and some minimal prep time.

Wizard finds a really big room, with a very high ceiling. 99 and 1/2 feet high, if he can find it.

On the ceiling of the room he places a 7th level Glyph of warding, triggered when the floor is struck. He puts a level 7 Dispel magic in the Glyph that will target his own Reverse Gravity.

The wizard holds a big party, feeding everyone as he secretly plots to set the new most damage record. He makes sure there are no objects securely attached to the floor...

When the room is stuffed with people, he casts Reverse gravity on the center of the room. Everyone within a 50 foot radius goes up, takes 10d6, then falls back down for another 10d6.

It would at least be fun to watch. :D


Its concentration - you don't even need to dispel it.

[ProphetSword]

24D6+120+12D4+60D8 then your 4D6s for sneak which is once per turn


How are you getting the sneak damage?

[jkat718]

This may depend on how long the building takes to fall. If it is ruled to be in the next round you might miss it.

Storm of vengeance is pretty good as well; it has about 10 times the area of meteor swarm so hits more targets. Unfortunately it is a 9th level spell so I cant think of many ways to boost its damage.

If you are allowing spells like hex, cast in previous turns to have an effect how about an extended delayed blast fireball as a contributing factor: 12+5+6=23d6 damage that requires ending concentration rather than an action or bonus action? With draconic background you could add 5 to this.

Because I'm not too familiar with Storm of Vengeance, I looked it up in the PHB, and...wow. Now I want to make lower-level versions of this, and give it NPCs for dramatic effect. :smallsmile:


How are you getting the sneak damage?

What do you mean? Are you asking where he got the calculations, or what the source of the damage is?

[Millface]

"3 ass rogue" made me laugh more than it should have. This was the same one I suggested earlier. I think that we can take this one step further with a half orc and great axe.

Wow, I had no idea Savage Attacks existed. That's sick.

I see now why min maxers keep saying DW isn't really viable.

[Millface]

How are you getting the sneak damage?

2d6 for a level 3 rogue's sneak damage, double it for the crit.



Sorcerer 6/ Paladin 6 = 9th level caster. 5 slots of 4th and 5th level and one of 3rd.

.

Divine Smite has to use Pally spell slots, it can't use sorcerer slots. Unless I'm misunderstanding the spell slot system entirely. Can I use cleric spell slots to cast Wizard spells if I'm a Wiz/Cleric?

Edit, read up on multiclass spell slots, your build is better!

[Paeleus]

2d6 for a level 3 rogue's sneak damage, double it for the crit.




Divine Smite has to use Pally spell slots, it can't use sorcerer slots. Unless I'm misunderstanding the spell slot system entirely. Can I use cleric spell slots to cast Wizard spells if I'm a Wiz/Cleric?

I believe Font of Magic is flexible with all spell slots, regardless of caster class.




Also, while I'm cracking up over some replies, I can't help but realize that I need to be a bit more specific with the goal of this post. So...

Consider you're the last man standing in the party, on a solo mission, or in an epic 1 v. 1 duel of sorts. Prep is allowed, but I think it should be regulated to one action. Think: ****s about to go down all of a sudden, it's do or die time. :smallcool:

[ProphetSword]

What do you mean? Are you asking where he got the calculations, or what the source of the damage is?

I'm asking how sneak attack damage is being applied to a non-ranged non-finesse weapon. Did I miss something in the description?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Consider you're the last man standing in the party, on a solo mission, or in an epic 1 v. 1 duel of sorts. Prep is allowed, but I think it should be regulated to one action. Think: ****s about to go down all of a sudden, it's do or die time. :smallcool:

Ah, so all these posts based on the target already being paralyzed so you can auto-crit aren't what you're looking for and neither are the AoE spell ones. Fair enough.

[Paeleus]

Ah, so all these posts based on the target already being paralyzed so you can auto-crit aren't what you're looking for and neither are the AoE spell ones. Fair enough.

Correct. Single target damage, but AoE gets bonus points if it can stay relevant damage wise in comparison to single target spells, melee attacks or certain skills. I'm surprised Warlock's Hurl through Hell hasn't popped up.

[Giant2005]

Also, while I'm cracking up over some replies, I can't help but realize that I need to be a bit more specific with the goal of this post. So...

Consider you're the last man standing in the party, on a solo mission, or in an epic 1 v. 1 duel of sorts. Prep is allowed, but I think it should be regulated to one action. Think: ****s about to go down all of a sudden, it's do or die time. :smallcool:

These are batter parameters.

These are the guys I used to beat the crap out of Tiamat: Fighter 3 (Battle Master), Rogue 3 (Assassin), Monk 2, Paladin 12 (Oathbreaker). Give them GWM, a Greatsword and extremely fortunate rolls on Str and Cha.
Use the prep turn to cast Divine Favor and take the Hide Action.
When attacking, he ambushes with all of his Superiority Dice, Action Surge, Flurry of Blows and as many Smites as he can muster. The damage rolls look like this:
16D6+62D8+12D4+102 for an average of 467 with re-rolls on 1s and 2s.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Correct. Single target damage, but AoE gets bonus points if it can stay relevant damage wise in comparison to single target spells, melee attacks or certain skills. I'm surprised Warlock's Hurl through Hell hasn't popped up.
Really? The best thing about that is taking a single target out of combat for a round, with no chance to resist, not damage.

Compare Meteor Swarm- 40d6 is a lot better than 10d10 and while Hurl through Hell doesn't seem to offer a save, it averages 55 damage, whereas Meteor Swarm averages 70 even if they make their save (provided the target doesn't have evasion). And Meteor Swarm's AoE. Though being a ninth level spell limits it's repeatability, even combined with extra action effects.

[Malifice]

Really? The best thing about that is taking a single target out of combat for a round, with no chance to resist, not damage.

Compare Meteor Swarm- 40d6 is a lot better than 10d10 and while Hurl through Hell doesn't seem to offer a save, it averages 55 damage, whereas Meteor Swarm averages 70 even if they make their save (provided the target doesn't have evasion). And Meteor Swarm's AoE. Though being a ninth level spell limits it's repeatability, even combined with extra action effects.

You're missing the fact that HtH is a rider effect on a potentially powerful strike.

Warlock 14/ fighter 2/ sorcerer 3 can hit with 3 x EBs in a single turn with Hex and HtH stacked on the top

22d10+12d6+60 damage is nothing to sneeze at.

[Fwiffo86]

4 Eldritch Blasts. Higher than 17th level.

[Malifice]

4 Eldritch Blasts. Higher than 17th level.

Nah three eldritch blasts. Each with 4 bolts. Total of 12.

[Easy_Lee]

4 Eldritch Blasts. Higher than 17th level.

Assuming sorcerer 16 / fighter 2 / warlock 2, we could fire six of them by twinning two (assuming DM allows given that EB can have multiple targets), and bonus action casting two. However, that's still only 252 average damage if they all hit.

[Yagyujubei]

My drow paladin should be able to pull off 6d10+34d8+45+22d6 if i ever get to max level. not the highest nova but its over 300 without action surge.

it could be considerably high depending on how my weapon die will change when my snake headed whip gets more heads...its a heavily home brewed weapon though so it doesnt really count here i guess.

[Paeleus]

So same fighter/sorc idea

Bonus Action via quickened spell: Hold person - Advantage on attack, auto crit if it connects if within 5 ft.
Triple Attack: Scorching Ray - ranged disadvantage cancels advantage.
1st attack - Level 5 spell slot = 12d6
2nd & 3rd attack - 2 Level 4 spell slots = 20d6
Action Surge
This time 4, 3, and 3 level spell slots = 26d6
Add em all up and what do you get?
You hurling 29 rays (wut) in 6 seconds.
Which equals to 116d6 ~= 400 plus or minus if they all hit.

[Easy_Lee]

So same fighter/sorc idea

Bonus Action via quickened spell: Hold person - Advantage on attack, auto crit if it connects if within 5 ft.
Triple Attack: Scorching Ray - ranged disadvantage cancels advantage.
1st attack - Level 5 spell slot = 12d6
2nd & 3rd attack - 2 Level 4 spell slots = 20d6
Action Surge
This time 4, 3, and 3 level spell slots = 26d6
Add em all up and what do you get?
You hurling 29 rays (wut) in 6 seconds.
Which equals to 116d6 ~= 400 plus or minus if they all hit.

Not sure where you got some of those casts, but I will say that the PHB prevents casting a non-cantrip in the same turn as one bonus casts a spell. If you quicken hold person, you cannot cast scorching ray that turn.

[Malifice]

So same fighter/sorc idea

Bonus Action via quickened spell: Hold person - Advantage on attack, auto crit if it connects if within 5 ft.
Triple Attack: Scorching Ray - ranged disadvantage cancels advantage.
1st attack - Level 5 spell slot = 12d6
2nd & 3rd attack - 2 Level 4 spell slots = 20d6
Action Surge
This time 4, 3, and 3 level spell slots = 26d6
Add em all up and what do you get?
You hurling 29 rays (wut) in 6 seconds.
Which equals to 116d6 ~= 400 plus or minus if they all hit.

What? Scorching ray isnt an attack. Its a spell. You cant cast extra spells with the extra attack class feature; you can only make extra weapon attacks.

Also, if you cast a spell as a bonus action you then cast anything else (other than cantrips) on the same turn.

[Paeleus]

Not sure where you got some of those casts, but I will say that the PHB prevents casting a non-cantrip in the same turn as one bonus casts a spell. If you quicken hold person, you cannot cast scorching ray that turn.

It's the subtle differences of words that's not explicitly stated (unless I'm wrong, which is possible). As stated on pg. 194 right above Attack Rolls, "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making a roll, you're making an attack."

Scorching Ray is the highest lvl roll to hit though Chromatic Orb sounds interesting, I just need to learn the rules for vulnerability. Doing that kind of thing comes at a heavy cost of all the spell slots consumed. Fireball on the other hand targets a location and has the target make a dex saving throw. So that's an "action spell" vs. an "Attack Spell" though they both are attacking.

And also you are right. I probably need to put the PHB down haha

EDIT: I derped up. No way to cast the two spells.

[Paeleus]

What? Scorching ray isnt an attack. Its a spell. You cant cast extra spells with the extra attack class feature; you can only make extra weapon attacks.

Also, if you cast a spell as a bonus action you then cast anything else (other than cantrips) on the same turn.

No, it says "...you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." - pg 72

[Easy_Lee]

No, it says "...you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." - pg 72

That isn't how that works. You don't take the "Attack" action to cast a spell; you take it to make melee attacks. When you're casting a spell, that's the "Cast a spell" action, which costs one action unless otherwise specified. Furthermore, the PHB clearly states that you cannot cast a non-cantrip spell in the same turn as you have cast any spell as a bonus action.

So those things you're saying don't work.

[Paeleus]

That isn't how that works. You don't take the "Attack" action to cast a spell; you take it to make melee attacks. When you're casting a spell, that's the "Cast a spell" action, which costs one action unless otherwise specified. Furthermore, the PHB clearly states that you cannot cast a non-cantrip spell in the same turn as you have cast any spell as a bonus action.

So those things you're saying don't work.

I want to agree with you and in fact I think you should be right to prevent this kind of abuse. If you can throw me some page numbers to help show me, I'd be very grateful.

[Easy_Lee]

I want to agree with you and in fact I think you should be right to prevent this kind of abuse. If you can throw me some page numbers to help show me, I'd be very grateful.

PHB 202: Casting Time - "Most spells require a single action to cast"

[HoarsHalberd]

Most spells require a single action to cast, but some
spells require a bonus action, a reaction, or much more
time to cast.

One action, not one attack.



Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of
once, whenever you take the Attack action

And on Page 192 the "Attack" action and the "Cast a Spell" action are two separate entries.


Assuming sorcerer 16 / fighter 2 / warlock 2, we could fire six of them by twinning two (assuming DM allows given that EB can have multiple targets), and bonus action casting two. However, that's still only 252 average damage if they all hit.

Ignoring the dubious nature of twinning EB. You could still only cast 5. 1 bonus action per round, one metamagic per spell unless stated otherwise.

[Easy_Lee]

Ignoring the dubious nature of twinning EB. You could still only cast 5. 1 bonus action per round, one metamagic per spell unless stated otherwise.

Reread and you can't apply two metamagics to one spell. So yeah, five.

[Paeleus]

One action, not one attack.

pg. 195 of PHB. Under Ranged Attacks & Melee Attacks. Last sentence in each respective section's first paragraph.

"A few spells also involve making a ranged/melee attack."

So my interpretation is: if I have to make a ranged or melee attack roll, it's the same as swinging a sword or shooting a bow in the system. This assumption is further backed up by the the sentence just above Attack Rolls on page 194.

That would make max damage around 220.

So nevermind.

[Easy_Lee]

pg. 195 of PHB. Under Ranged Attacks & Melee Attacks. Last sentence in each respective section's first paragraph.

"A few spells also involve making a ranged/melee attack."

So my interpretation is: if I have to make a ranged or melee attack roll, it's the same as swinging a sword or shooting a bow in the system. This assumption is further backed up by the the sentence just above Attack Rolls on page 194.

That would make max damage around 220.

So nevermind.

Extra attack affects the attack action, not all sources of attack rolls. That's the part that seems to be confusing you.

[Paeleus]

Extra attack affects the attack action, not all sources of attack rolls. That's the part that seems to be confusing you.

Incorrect. Think of it this way.

During your turn you have one Bonus Action and one Action. Per page 192, Actions in combat, notice how Attack, but not action, is capitalized in the first sentence. The first sentence of the following paragraph states, with this action, you make one melee or ranged attack.

Now, though both Attack and Cast A Spell have a different header, the Cast A Spell section is just further elaboration upon what 1 allowable action you can take if you're a level 1 wizard. Midway through the Cast A Spell paragraph we see "Most spells do have a casting time of 1 action (again, not capitalized), so a spellcaster often uses his/her action in combat to cast such a spell.

Fighter's extra attack does not state anything about a weapon attack, only an extra action, when you choose to Attack. AKA roll to hit.

Let me know if that's not sound logic. I think it's pretty balanced though. Higher damage = more resources. Realize that this only works with spells that require an attack roll.

[Easy_Lee]

@Paeleus, the extra attack feature specifically states that you may make X extra attacks when you take the "Attack" action. The "Attack" action can only be used to make weapon attacks. Spell attacks are made via casting a spell. If extra attack affected all attacks, not just the "Attack" action, then it would yield infinite attacks by creating new attacks off of itself recursively.

So you can't use extra attack to cast two attack spells. It just doesn't work that way.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

That's a weird interpretation. Fighter 20 with magic initiate, high elf or EK becomes the best cantrip caster, even surpassing a warlock? Why would you think that's intended?

[Paeleus]

@Easy_Lee this whole argument we are having is actually resolved in the book. Like this very situation. pg. 194 - "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."
What would you consider swing a sword to be? 1 action? Now what about firebolt? 1 action. Both roll to hit. Extra attack gives you another Attack action, which as the argument solver shows that roll to hit spells are included in extra attacks.

[Ramshack]

Yup. I would have preferred something like the Marvelous Pigments description. Must be common, non-magical, non-living, mundane, with a very limited gp value, and attempts to create anything valuable lead to shoddy replicas. Want to recreate a wagon or a weapon or tools? Fine. Want to create instant death? No.

I'm not sure how every reads the conjuration ability, but it's pretty clear it creates a magical replica of an item you've seen. To me that doesn't mean it can create substances like food, water, poisons, spell reagents that's clearly not what the ability was intended to do. To me it clearly means you can make mundane tools or weapons. Need a table? Chair? Wheel? Hammer? Sword? Create specific alchemical properties is abusing the ability and would never fly at my table.

I picture it as being Green lantern and being able to items out of magical energy. I can't make poison but I can make a vial or a bucket or a syringe.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Yes it's an attack, since it has an attack roll. But as previously said by others, you don't use the attack action. You cast a spell. They are still spells. The only reason the attack action doesn't specifically say "Weapon attack" is to not disallow unarmed or special attacks.

[Malifice]

@Easy_Lee this whole argument we are having is actually resolved in the book. Like this very situation. pg. 194 - "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."
What would you consider swing a sword to be? 1 action? Now what about firebolt? 1 action. Both roll to hit. Extra attack gives you another Attack action, which as the argument solver shows that roll to hit spells are included in extra attacks.

Youre wrong.

Extra attack does not give an extra attack action. It lets you make an extra melee or ranged attack when you take the attack action.

[Paeleus]

That's a weird interpretation. Fighter 20 with magic initiate, high elf or EK becomes the best cantrip caster, even surpassing a warlock? Why would you think that's intended?

Magic initiate can only cast the spell once a day so that takes care of that, totally possible for high elf to become crazy good, and it's possible. EK all of a sudden turns into a badass and it would explain why he is the only fight/caster who is capped at 4th lvl spells.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Magic initiate can only cast the spell once a day so that takes care of that, totally possible for high elf to become crazy good, and it's possible. EK all of a sudden turns into a badass and it would explain why he is the only fight/caster who is capped at 4th lvl spells.

You say badass, I say "totally out of step numerically with every other baseline mode of attacking". The high elf fighter for instance with max DEX and max INT does more than double damage using Firebolt instead of a bow.

[Paeleus]

You say badass, I say "totally out of step numerically with every other baseline mode of attacking". The high elf fighter for instance with max DEX and max INT does more than double damage using Firebolt instead of a bow.

And what powerful trope does WotC take care of that a number of players have been clamoring for since the dawn of time?

I even think that Warlock is a bit over praised for this very reason. Be pact of the fiend and be able to hit multi or single, be able to double range, push, and add charisma mod to damage? Plus be able to add 10d10 psychic damage if you connect with one? I'd say that's pretty equal to an EK who can triple attack, or quadruple attack at level 20, with a firebolt. No mods to damage. Or shocking grasp 3 or 4 times to make sure they can't take a reaction. Heck yeah, sounds pretty balanced to me.

[Malifice]

And what powerful trope does WotC take care of that a number of players have been clamoring for since the dawn of time?

I even think that Warlock is a bit over praised for this very reason. Be pact of the fiend and be able to hit multi or single, be able to double range, push, and add charisma mod to damage? Plus be able to add 10d10 psychic damage if you connect with one? I'd say that's pretty equal to an EK who can triple attack, or quadruple attack at level 20, with a firebolt. No mods to damage. Or shocking grasp 3 or 4 times to make sure they can't take a reaction. Heck yeah, sounds pretty balanced to me.

Play how you want man. But youre wrong.

[Paeleus]

Youre wrong.

Extra attack does not give an extra attack action. It lets you make an extra melee or ranged attack when you take the attack action.

Go read your PHB. No where does it state that extra attack gives you and extra ranged or attack. It says an extra action. A roll to hit spell is an available action, unlike fireball or lightening bolt.

[Easy_Lee]

@Paeleus, making an attack and taking the "attack" action are two different things. See the combat chapter for clarification.

[Paeleus]

Play how you want man. But youre wrong.
Aww bb, don't be like that. Open your mind to what the game really let's you do. Only then can you be the best adventurer you can be.

[Malifice]

Go read your PHB. No where does it state that extra attack gives you and extra ranged or attack.

You sure homie? From the PHB:

Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.


Also see actions from the PHB:

Attack
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.

With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.

Take the Attack action and you have the extra attack class feature? You get to make two ranged weapon or melee weapon attacks. Not spell attacks.


It says an extra action.

No, it doesnt. Read the damn rule!

[Paeleus]

You sure homie? From the PHB:

Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.


Also see actions from the PHB:

Attack
The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.

With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.

Take the Attack action and you have the extra attack class feature? You get to make two ranged weapon or melee weapon attacks. Not spell attacks.



No, it doesnt. Read the damn rule!

I again shall refer you to page 194, sir.

Firebolt requires a ranged spell attack. Even though it's a spell, it's still an attack. Only under bonus action spells does it stipulate against other spells, excluding cantrips, being used as an action.

[Easy_Lee]

I again shall refer you to page 194, sir.

Firebolt requires a ranged spell attack. Even though it's a spell, it's still an attack. Only under bonus action spells does it stipulate against other spells, excluding cantrips, being used as an action.

Extra attack only affects the "attack" action. It does not affect attacks. One needs look no further than the free PDF to confirm this.

[Malifice]

Firebolt requires a ranged spell attack.

It requires the cast a spell action NOT the attack action.

You dont cast Firebolt by using the attack action. You use the cast a spell action to cast the spell: Firebolt.

Extra attack only applies when you take the attack action NOT when you take the cast a spell action.

Look bro, rulings not rules and play it how you want, but your wrong.

[hawklost]

I again shall refer you to page 194, sir.

Firebolt requires a ranged spell attack. Even though it's a spell, it's still an attack. Only under bonus action spells does it stipulate against other spells, excluding cantrips, being used as an action.

It helps to continue to refer to the book and not just stop at the parts you like the most.

Page 202
In the section appropriately called Casting a Sepll
under Casting time:
Most spells require a single action to cast, but some spells require a bonus action, a reaction, or much more time to cast.

Nowhere does it say that the spell is an attack action, and nowhere does it say that a spell can be cast as part of an Attack Action. It requires an Action to cast.

Cantrip = Spell of lvl 0
+
Spells require an action to cast (except in special cases where stipulated like Bonus action)

Ergo, you cannot use an Attack Action to cast a spell.

Heck, even on page 192, where it talks about Actions in Combat Casting a Spell and Attack are two separate types of actions. They even have a special section on page 205 about spells that make an attack roll (and they are not called Attack Action there)

[jkat718]

@Paeleus: I think the best way I've heard this (admittedly confusing) rule explained is like this:

According to p. 192, the Attack action is taken when "you make one melee or ranged attack."
According to p. 192, "casting a spell is...not necessarily an action. Most spells do have a casting time of 1 action, so a spellcaster often uses his or her action in combat to cast such a spell."
According to p. 194, "if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."
According to p. 202, "Most spells require a single action to cast."
According to p. 205, "some spells require the caster to make an attack roll."


Now, all of this seems to point to your being correct, right? But here's the catch: the rules say "if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack." Not "you're taking the Attack action," but "making an attack." That is, while you are making an attack, you could be taking another action (or a reaction, or a bonus action, it really doesn't matter). Ergo, a spell can require an attack roll (as point 5), which means that it requires making an attack (as per point 3), which you argue means that you are taking the Attack action (as per point 1), but it can also mean that, because the spell has a duration of 1 action (as per point 2), it is assumed that casting the spell requires a single action (as per the second part of point 2). Not a single attack, a single action.

Does that help explain it? I can try to clarify further if need be.

[ProphetSword]

Perhaps the wise words of MerricB can help:

http://merricb.com/2015/04/21/the-attack-action-extra-attacks-and-other-attacks/