Natural Attacks and Unarmed Strikes

[glitterbaby]

Example: 8th level druid has IUS, Wild Shape, and +6/+1 BAB. Druid Wild Shapes into a tiger with pounce. Druid charges enemy and full attacks. What does his full attack look like? If I'm not mistaken the primary natural weapons are supposed to move to secondary, suffering the -5 penalty unless multiattack, if a creature has a manufactured weapon or uses unarmed strikes. Would the full attack then be +6US/+1US/+1Claw/+1Claw/+1Bite (ignoring everything but BAB)? If not, what would it be?

[Bronk]

Yes, plus a rake as well.

[glitterbaby]

Ok great, thanks!

[lagninja]

Yes, plus a rake as well.

I'm pretty sure that the claws replace the unarmed strikes, much like a dagger would if it was being weilded. And natural attacks consider you to be "armed," negating the ability to use an US at the same time.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure that the claws replace the unarmed strikes, much like a dagger would if it was being weilded. And natural attacks consider you to be "armed," negating the ability to use an US at the same time.

That's incorrect. You don't need to take your unarmed attacks with the same appendage as your claw attacks, so there is no conflict there. Also, simply possessing natural weapons has no bearing on your ability to make an unarmed strike, just like holding a sword doesn't stop you from kicking someone.

[danzibr]

I'm pretty sure that the claws replace the unarmed strikes, much like a dagger would if it was being weilded. And natural attacks consider you to be "armed," negating the ability to use an US at the same time.
I think you're thinking about weapons and claws, maybe. Yes, if you held a sword in your right hand, and your right hand had a claw, you could not attack with both in the same round.

However, keep in mind unarmed attacks may be made with any part of the body.

And what's this "armed" business? You could totally be holding a staff or something if you're a monk, then Chuck Norris them in the face.

EDIT: Swordsage'd. Man, what I said is eerily close to KillianHawkeye's text.

[Hiro Quester]

Though officially you must use headbutt, knee, elbow, etc. for unarmed strikes. Something other than the ends of front paws, rear paws or bite.

I'm playing a Druid with one Monk level for (in addition to having +Wis to AC) this ability to add iterative attacks on top of natural weapons.

My big cat full attack often begins with a spinning unarmed strike using my tail.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I'm not sure if this helps but if I recall there was a Dragon magazine (DR355 p76) feat called Beast strike that gave this effect, "When making an Unarmed Strike or Grapple check to deal damage, add your Claw or Slam damage." I always debated it's usefulness in certain builds and actually am trying it out on a current played character.

[bekeleven]

Does the druid have any levels in monk?

Does the druid have Improved Unarmed Strike?

[Curmudgeon]

Though officially you must use headbutt, knee, elbow, etc. for unarmed strikes.
Here's what the Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_unarmedstrike&alpha=U) says:
unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. You exclude strikes typically dealing lethal damage (most natural attacks like claws, slams, & c.) but every other type of unarmed blow is allowed. Head butts and so on are just examples, not a limiting specification.

[Necroticplague]

I think you're thinking about weapons and claws, maybe. Yes, if you held a sword in your right hand, and your right hand had a claw, you could not attack with both in the same round.

Citation on the bolded part? I don't think the rules actually state that.

[ace rooster]

Why do you think that primary attacks move to secondary ones, rather than just being lost when you use a different primary attack type (unarmed or manufactured)? There are some examples where they can (with limitations), but I don't think it is a general rule.

[danzibr]

Citation on the bolded part? I don't think the rules actually state that.
IIRC, it comes from scouring many stat blocks.

EDIT: Memory serves me correctly.

Third, there's an "unwritten rule" when you mix manufactured weapons with natural attacks, you "lose" a natural attack when the associated appendage is busy wielding a manufactured weapon. Unfortunately, this rule is not written down anywhere. It's based mostly on common sense (which often reacts violently when brought into close proximity with Rules As Written) and a close reading of the stat blocks of creatures wielding weapons in the various Monster Manuals.

[Necroticplague]

Why do you think that primary attacks move to secondary ones, rather than just being lost when you use a different primary attack type (unarmed or manufactured)? There are some examples where they can (with limitations), but I don't think it is a general rule.

Because of the SRD 'Manufactured and Natural Weapon Fighting section', where there is a general rule.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.
For these purposes, an unarmed strike is a manufactured weapon, so punching a dude then carving him with your claws is the same as shanking him then using your claws. So the OP's math is spot-on (assuming no multiattack feat)

[lagninja]

I'm confused by this all now.

If we had a Thri-keen monk with a BAB of +6/+1, it could make two unarmed attacks and then it's four claws, right? But if we add four daggers, would he only be able to make the dagger attacks (using multi weapon fighting for one primary and three off hand) or the unarmed attacks? Or would he be able to make the two unarmed and all four daggers?

[Urpriest]

I'm confused by this all now.

If we had a Thri-keen monk with a BAB of +6/+1, it could make two unarmed attacks and then it's four claws, right? But if we add four daggers, would he only be able to make the dagger attacks (using multi weapon fighting for onetwo primary and three off hand) or the unarmed attacks? Or would he be able to make the two unarmed and all four daggers?

The former. Unarmed Strikes and Weapon Attacks both come from the same pool, using your iterative attacks, while claw attacks come from a different pool, being non-unarmed strike natural weapons.

[Necroticplague]

I'm confused by this all now.

If we had a Thri-keen monk with a BAB of +6/+1, it could make two unarmed attacks and then it's four claws, right? But if we add four daggers, would he only be able to make the dagger attacks (using multi weapon fighting for one primary and three off hand) or the unarmed attacks? Or would he be able to make the two unarmed and all four daggers?

He would be able to use the daggers and the unarmed strike. For purposes such as these, an unarmed strike uses the same rules as a manufactured weapon. So you'd get 1 attack at +4, then 5 at -1. You could decide whether your +4 is one of your daggers or your unarmed strike.

[Hiro Quester]

There are two options, to be thorough. Though the one you have cited is usually the best.

This Rules of the Game article on unarmed attacks http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a explains that you can add an unarmed strike in after all your natural attacks, too. But you take -4 on all attacks, as with TWF penalties, since this extra attack interferes with your natural attacks. This will usually be less than optimal, since all but your first natural weapon attacks already have -5.

So it's better to take UASs first, as iterative attacks, and then take -5 on all natural attacks. Esp if you have IUAS, and your unarmed strike actually does decent damage.

Edit:
The next installment of rules of the game ( http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a ) further explains how a monk with natural weapons can combine their attacks:


A creature with natural weapons can use them for secondary attacks when using the full attack action. A monk character with natural weaponry has the same option.

For example, an 8th-level lizardfolk monk with a Strength score of 17 has a base attack bonus of +7 (+1 for its 2 humanoid Hit Dice and +6 for its monk levels). The character has three natural weapons: two claws (1d4) and one bite (1d4). For this example, we'll assume the character also has the Multiattack feat.

With the full attack action, our example monk can make two unarmed attacks thanks to its +7 base attack bonus. After adding in the +3 bonus from the monk's Strength score of 17, our example character's unarmed attacks have the following attack bonuses: +10/+5. Thanks to the monk's class level and Strength score, damage for the unarmed strikes is 1d10+3.

The example monk also can attack with its claws and bite as secondary natural attacks at a -2 penalty (thanks to the character's Multiattack feat). Each natural weapon uses the character's +7 base attack bonus and +3 Strength modifier, except that the Strength bonus on damage is halved because these are secondary attacks: 2 claws +8 (1d4+1) and bite +8 (1d4+1).

As noted last week, there are no two-weapon or off-hand penalties for these attacks.