PDA

View Full Version : Charm person and interrogations



kamikasei
2007-04-16, 05:58 AM
So my new group finished our first adventure, The Burning Plague off the Wizards' website. It was fun! (There may be minor spoilers for it ahead.) However, there was a major oddity and I'm not sure whether I handled it correctly.

The oddity was that we had a Beguiler along, and twice a battle ended with one surviving enemy, unconscious (including the main villain - curse you, nonlethal damage spells!). Twice, therefore, the party decided to try
- tying up the enemy
- waiting for them to regain consciousness
- hitting them with charm person to interrogate them.

Now, what has me confused here is how good a tactic this seems to be! There's nothing I can see limiting the number of times a charm spell may be attempted on the same target, and Beguilers spontaneously cast them, so the player was able to spam the enemy until it failed its will save quite easily. I'm not sure if being tied up but otherwise unmolested counts as being "currently threatened or attacked", but even if it does it's only a +5 on the save. The spell seems reliably able to take a just-defeated enemy and make him willing and eager to answer any question you ask.

I guess what I'm asking is whether there's something I was missing in how to handle this situation. The player's didn't really abuse it - all they were able to do was to ask for information, and in one case, convince a kobold that they were friendly helpful demon-hunters and he should go tell all his friends to come out and say hi (his friends didn't buy it). They didn't otherwise try to order their captives about or make them do anything harmful - they just asked questions. It was simply odd - a way of handling situations that I'm pretty sure the module designer didn't envision - and rather anticlimactic. That's okay if it's legit, it just means I have to take it into account for future adventures.

What I wonder is:
- will a charmed person, even one who had been fighting the party not long before, just answer any question asked of it as if helping out a buddy?
- will being tied up and surrounded, etc., affect the spell beyond perhaps a +2 to the save?
- is repeatedly casting charm until a save is failed a legitimate tactic? Do bonuses to the save accumulate with each attempt, or anything like that? I don't see anything to that effect in the spell description, but I suppose it might be tucked away elsewhere.

Thanks for the help!

Ikkitosen
2007-04-16, 06:10 AM
I don't think they'd answer questions. If your best mate went to work for [insert evil organisation here] you'd still love them as a friend but you heck as like would co-operate with them on "official business", would you?

Saph
2007-04-16, 06:22 AM
I play enchanter-characters all the time, so this is the kind of thing I often run into. :)


I guess what I'm asking is whether there's something I was missing in how to handle this situation. The player's didn't really abuse it - all they were able to do was to ask for information, and in one case, convince a kobold that they were friendly helpful demon-hunters and he should go tell all his friends to come out and say hi (his friends didn't buy it). They didn't otherwise try to order their captives about or make them do anything harmful - they just asked questions.

Sounds just fine to me. All they're doing is using magic to accelerate the interrogation process. They could have accomplished the same thing with Intimidate, or some good use of the Bluff/Diplomacy skills, and they'd have had the same advantage (if one approach fails, try another). This is one of the standard uses of charm spells, so any decently designed WotC module ought to anticipate it.


What I wonder is:
- will a charmed person, even one who had been fighting the party not long before, just answer any question asked of it as if helping out a buddy?

Any question he'd answer to a good friend, yup. This is the fun part of playing an enchanter.

"I'm going to cut your eyes out and shove them down your throat! Then I'll-"
"Charm Person."
"And then I'll take your arms and . . . oh. Huh. Hi there, nice to see you."
"Hi. So, can you tell me how to get through this maze?"
"Sure!"


- will being tied up and surrounded, etc., affect the spell beyond perhaps a +2 to the save?

From the SRD:

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

I'd say that having a target tied up and surrounded counts as 'threatening' them, so they would get the full +5 bonus on the save. This is DM's call, though.


- is repeatedly casting charm until a save is failed a legitimate tactic? Do bonuses to the save accumulate with each attempt, or anything like that? I don't see anything to that effect in the spell description, but I suppose it might be tucked away elsewhere.

It's perfectly legitimate - no different from casting finger of death or any save-or-X spell over and over.

Remember, though, that once you get past low levels, you'll probably find that very few of the dangerous enemies you go against have the humanoid type, so charm person stops working. Charm monster is level 4, so unless you have a Beguiler around of level 8+, it's hard to spam casting it over and over.

And once you get into the higher levels, it seems like practically everything dangerous is immune to mind-affecting things, so charm spells become only indirectly useful - although they're still good.

- Saph

its_all_ogre
2007-04-16, 06:29 AM
if they have spellcraft and pass the check they could fake it though.
could lead to fun RP!

Epiphanis
2007-04-16, 06:31 AM
I concur that its a totally legit tactic. However, I'd like to point out that the tying-up thing isn't a great thing combined with charm person. Charms make the target regard the caster as a friend, not make him a mind slave. Now, if I woke up and found that my new friend (or even an old friend) had tied me up, I wouldn't be agreeable to answering questions ("Dude, would you untie me? Dude? Come on, this isn't funny. Look, just untie me, okay?")

SMDVogrin
2007-04-16, 06:44 AM
Now, what has me confused here is how good a tactic this seems to be! There's nothing I can see limiting the number of times a charm spell may be attempted on the same target, and Beguilers spontaneously cast them, so the player was able to spam the enemy until it failed its will save quite easily. I'm not sure if being tied up but otherwise unmolested counts as being "currently threatened or attacked", but even if it does it's only a +5 on the save. The spell seems reliably able to take a just-defeated enemy and make him willing and eager to answer any question you ask.

I guess what I'm asking is whether there's something I was missing in how to handle this situation. The player's didn't really abuse it - all they were able to do was to ask for information, and in one case, convince a kobold that they were friendly helpful demon-hunters and he should go tell all his friends to come out and say hi (his friends didn't buy it). They didn't otherwise try to order their captives about or make them do anything harmful - they just asked questions. It was simply odd - a way of handling situations that I'm pretty sure the module designer didn't envision - and rather anticlimactic. That's okay if it's legit, it just means I have to take it into account for future adventures.

What I wonder is:
- will a charmed person, even one who had been fighting the party not long before, just answer any question asked of it as if helping out a buddy?
- will being tied up and surrounded, etc., affect the spell beyond perhaps a +2 to the save?
- is repeatedly casting charm until a save is failed a legitimate tactic? Do bonuses to the save accumulate with each attempt, or anything like that? I don't see anything to that effect in the spell description, but I suppose it might be tucked away elsewhere.

Thanks for the help!
Wizards actually addressed this a bit in their "Save My Game" column. Might be of interest to you.

Adjudicating Charm Spells, Parts 1 and 2:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050812a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050819a

kamikasei
2007-04-16, 07:38 AM
Thanks for the advice. I think I did okay in that session, so I guess the key thing for future adventures will be to have a decent idea in advance of what would be "normal" behavior for an enemy that they'd resist acting outside of.

I'm thinking that "tie them up and charm them" can be handled with a +5 for the being-tied-up, and a +2 for the fact that they were just in combat watching their friends die (applied to the will save). I'll also make it clear to the players that keeping the captive tied up after they're charmed will reduce their cooperativeness, and that Charisma or other checks will be necessary to issue commands or extract information the target wants to keep secret. That seems fair...

Again, thanks to all for the advice.

Ethdred
2007-04-16, 07:43 AM
I concur that its a totally legit tactic. However, I'd like to point out that the tying-up thing isn't a great thing combined with charm person. Charms make the target regard the caster as a friend, not make him a mind slave. Now, if I woke up and found that my new friend (or even an old friend) had tied me up, I wouldn't be agreeable to answering questions ("Dude, would you untie me? Dude? Come on, this isn't funny. Look, just untie me, okay?")


Oh come on, live a little :)

Seriously, I think the tying up thing would nullify the charm unless they were able to explain it away and untie him pretty quickly. Especially since the charmee would remember having fought against the party and presumably remember being tied up. (It's easier if they are tied up while unconscious as then you can try the 'I came in and found you this way' trick)

Epiphanis
2007-04-16, 07:55 AM
Hey, some people like being tied up. I don't judge.

kamikasei
2007-04-16, 08:04 AM
Seriously, I think the tying up thing would nullify the charm unless they were able to explain it away and untie him pretty quickly. Especially since the charmee would remember having fought against the party and presumably remember being tied up. (It's easier if they are tied up while unconscious as then you can try the 'I came in and found you this way' trick)

Nullify is a strong word and smells somewhat of DM fiat. If the fact that your fighter buddy is swinging a greataxe at the target's head only gives him a +5 to his will save, the fact that you've tied him up "to keep him from attacking you long enough to let you explain yourselves" (or whatever) shouldn't be a harsher penalty, I think.

NullAshton
2007-04-16, 08:15 AM
if they have spellcraft and pass the check they could fake it though.
could lead to fun RP!

Actually, a caster automatically knows if someone succeeded or not on a save.

There is a feat that does that though. Spelltouched feats from UA, it's in the SRD. It makes casters believe that you failed on your save for a charm or compulsion effect.

Diggorian
2007-04-16, 09:08 AM
Not only a legit tactic, I'd say its favorable in some situations where you have Good party folk with a distaste for torture.

Further, there's many ways to accurately roleplay a now friendly captive as Epiphanis points out. If low level he may not have alot of info to tell, "I just follow the boss and fight. Dont know, or wanna know, his big plan. He's crazy!" If in the know, I could see playing them with divided loyaty as well.

ocato
2007-04-16, 09:38 AM
"Why am I tied up?!"
"You were trying to kill us, we don't know what came over you so we knocked you out and tied you up so no one got hurt."
"Oh, I... I'm very sorry for trying to hurt you."
*unties him* "It's okay friend. So, which way to the throne room?"
"Oh, you just take a left at the chasm of unhallowed earthly delights, then go on down to the stop light and take a right at burger duke."

Mewtarthio
2007-04-16, 02:49 PM
"Why am I tied up?!"
"You were trying to kill us, we don't know what came over you so we knocked you out and tied you up so no one got hurt."
"Oh, I... I'm very sorry for trying to hurt you."
*unties him* "It's okay friend. So, which way to the throne room?"
"Oh, you just take a left at the chasm of unhallowed earthly delights, then go on down to the stop light and take a right at burger duke."

Charm spells don't say anything about selective amnesia. If the kobold recognizes (via Spellcraft or simply from knowing he's up against a Beguiler) a Charm spell, he'll still be friendly, but he'll know he's been Charmed. Still, this won't make any difference as far as what you can get him to do: You can play it either as willful ignorance (eg You don't erase his memory, but he refuses to think about what you did) or as outright thankfulness ("Wow! Thanks for casting that spell on me! Now I can really see what a great guy you are! I've been an idiot this whole time!") or even mind control ("Strike, hero, if you can muster the will to do so!").

PaladinBoy
2007-04-16, 03:59 PM
I think that charm spells are an excellent interrogation method, but they do have limits. The best one I can think of is that if that evil villian is particularly paranoid, he may have secrets which he wouldn't tell his closest friends about. The charm spell, whether it actually affects him or not, then wouldn't really help.

It is mostly based on DM fiat, though, so I wouldn't use it too often. Could be a valuable tool if your players get lucky and capture someone who was supposed to get away, though.

Matthew
2007-04-16, 09:18 PM
I have to agree that this was a valid (and often used) tactic. However, you should feel free to grant substantial Circumstance Modifiers to any Saving Throw when appropriate, in my opinion

Ethdred
2007-04-17, 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by Ethdred http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2409995#post2409995)
Seriously, I think the tying up thing would nullify the charm unless they were able to explain it away and untie him pretty quickly. Especially since the charmee would remember having fought against the party and presumably remember being tied up. (It's easier if they are tied up while unconscious as then you can try the 'I came in and found you this way' trick)
Nullify is a strong word and smells somewhat of DM fiat. If the fact that your fighter buddy is swinging a greataxe at the target's head only gives him a +5 to his will save, the fact that you've tied him up "to keep him from attacking you long enough to let you explain yourselves" (or whatever) shouldn't be a harsher penalty, I think.


Yeah, like I said, unless they could explain it away.

Back in the old days, any hostile action would immediately break a charm ('cos how long would you remain friends with someone who was stabbing you?) but I would say they got a resave every round they were tied up, so it wouldn't last long.

EvilElitest
2007-04-18, 10:23 PM
Depends on how smart this guy is and how important hte plot is

If my best friend asked me about the answer to the homework, i'll tell him
If he asked me my bank acount number without a reason, hell no
I'll trust him if need him to know for some reason, but i need a reason

How does this guy rate it?
As for legit, i think most enchantments are legit from a good perspetive excepte domanate maybe?

from,
EE

Ramza00
2007-04-19, 11:12 AM
I concur that its a totally legit tactic. However, I'd like to point out that the tying-up thing isn't a great thing combined with charm person. Charms make the target regard the caster as a friend, not make him a mind slave. Now, if I woke up and found that my new friend (or even an old friend) had tied me up, I wouldn't be agreeable to answering questions ("Dude, would you untie me? Dude? Come on, this isn't funny. Look, just untie me, okay?")

At his lave to effectively create a mind slave you just have to add 1 more spell. Hypnotism

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnotism.htm

Make the target who has 2d4 hd friendlyness rating go up 2 ranks. 2 ranks above friendly (which you achieve by charm person), wait for it...2 ranks above friendly is fanatic.

Attitude: Fanatic
Means: Will give life to serve you
Possible Actions: Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon

Note though you only have 2d4 rounds to state this request while he is under fanaticism before he returns back to friendly. Of course the spell description says once you state the request and make it, he will keep that NPC state for only that one request.

Ask him something like I am your friend, you can trust me, or answer my questions if so I will do X for you (when X being good) and suddenly you have effectively a mind slave.

Runolfr
2007-04-19, 11:38 AM
I think it's important to note that while charm person makes the target friendly, it doesn't eliminate the target's existing loyalties.

"Intruders! I'll destroy you all!"
"Charm person!"
"Oh, well, I guess you're not so bad. Still, I'm going to have to ask you to leave."