TWF feats/features on multi-weapon fighters?

[martixy]

Say you were a character with more than two arms and wish to fight using all of them.

There are many feats and other features made for TWF, where it isn't clear what happens if the creature is a MWFighter.

For example:
How would that interact with the Tome of Battle two-weapon focused features?
Examples being some tiger-claw maneuvers and the prestige class Bloodclaw Master.

Just for reference here are the offending bits:
Entry Requirements
Skills: Jump 9 ranks.
Feats: Multiattack or Two-Weapon Fighting.
Martial Maneuvers: Must know three Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you attack with two daggers or Tiger Claw weapons, you do not take the –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.

Questions that arrise are:
Does Multi-weapon fighting qualify you for that, given that it says it replaces TWF for multi-arm characters?

Now the mongoose maneuvers are worded unambiguously enough(they just tell you you can't make more than x extra attacks).
But then Wolf Fang strike is rather weird. It says "you must fight with two weapons", not "you must fight with more than one weapon". Basically it's rather narrowly specific. The question being - is that expressly intentional? Or could you argue that you should be able to make 1 attack with each weapon you wield?

Other general feats also suffer from the same problem
Dual Strike: Requires TWF and Imp. TWF.
This is standard action for a double-slice.

Same for Double Hit, but dealing with AoOs.
And for Two-Weapon Pounce.

Now unlike TWF, MWF does not have a progression of feats, it's just the one.
So there's that.

On the other hand, there are templates from official books(Multiheaded; SS125) which provide features such as this one:
Superior Two-Weapon Fighting or Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): Because each head controls one arm (or analogous weapon-using limb), a multiheaded creature has no penalty on attack rolls for attacking with multiple weapons, and the number of attacks and the damage bonus for each weapon are calculated as though the weapon were held in a primary hand.
This is like the entire progression of all TWF feats rolled up into one feature. Sidenote: Along with a literal crapton of other perks for a measly LA+2, which IMHO make this the single best template for a martial character that exists in the history of the universe! And pretty decent for other folks too.
Aaanyway...

In the absence of a MWF progression this seems like basically the only reasonable option of qualifying for the aforementioned feats.

Then there's the issue of if and how they'd actually work. I mean do you make the logical leap from TWF to MWF as to the mechanical nature of the ability or what (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHGTppKiLjE)...

[Darrin]

It may be best to think of MWF and TWF as being two sides of the same coin. They are, for most mechanical purposes, the same feat except the name changes slightly if you have more than two hands. So anywhere you read TWF, you can replace it with MWF.

The other thing to keep in mind is MWF wasn't entirely updated all that well in 3.5. MWF itself was updated in the Monster Manual, but Improved MWF and Greater MWF were not included. Those were printed in Savage Species, but that's often considered a "3.25" book as it came out just before the rules transitioned to 3.5. Improved/Greater MWF weren't officially "published" until WotC released the Epic Rules update (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greaterMultiweaponFighting) of the SRD online, but we don't have a firm publication date for that. Unfortunately, no one noticed that the BAB/Dex requirements for the TWF feats had changed, so Improved/Greater MWF have higher prereqs than their TWF counterparts. I think the best way to deal with this is to invoke the "minor adjustment" clause on page 4 of the PHB/DMG and adjust how MWF works so it fits better into your game.



For example:
How would that interact with the Tome of Battle two-weapon focused features?
Examples being some tiger-claw maneuvers and the prestige class Bloodclaw Master.

Just for reference here are the offending bits:
Entry Requirements
Skills: Jump 9 ranks.
Feats: Multiattack or Two-Weapon Fighting.
Martial Maneuvers: Must know three Tiger Claw maneuvers.


Since TWF/MWF are interchangeable, I don't see any problems here. If you have MWF, you qualify has having TWF.



Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you attack with two daggers or Tiger Claw weapons, you do not take the –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.

Questions that arrise are:
Does Multi-weapon fighting qualify you for that, given that it says it replaces TWF for multi-arm characters?


The attack penalties for MWF are calculated using the same TWF rules, so I don't see any problems here. If all your offhand weapons are light, your penalties are reduced to +0 primary/+0 offhand. If your offhand weapons are not light, then you still have -2 primary/-2 offhand.



Now the mongoose maneuvers are worded unambiguously enough(they just tell you you can't make more than x extra attacks).
But then Wolf Fang strike is rather weird. It says "you must fight with two weapons", not "you must fight with more than one weapon". Basically it's rather narrowly specific. The question being - is that expressly intentional? Or could you argue that you should be able to make 1 attack with each weapon you wield?


The maneuver allows you to make two attacks, so that's why it mentions the "two weapons" requirement. Even without MWF, it's easy to imagine a character with multiple weapons. For example: longsword, dagger, armor spikes, unarmed strike. Does this character have exactly two weapons? No, he has four that he can use for any attack. Can he use Wolf Fang Strike? Yes, he just needs to pick two weapons out of his four. MWF would work the same way: you have multiple weapons you can attack with, presumably at least one in each hand. Pick two of them, and follow the text of the feat. I don't see anything in the text to suggest that if you had multiple offhand weapons, then you get to make more than two attacks.

Wolf Fang Strike is an oddball that has a couple quirks to it... for example, the -2 penalty on both attacks *replaces* the normal TWF penalty, so you could attack with a one-handed weapon as your offhand attack and take advantage of the lower penalty.



Other general feats also suffer from the same problem
Dual Strike: Requires TWF and Imp. TWF.
This is standard action for a double-slice.


The specific text of this feat overrides MWF. I'd say you still get only two attacks, one primary and one offhand. Yes, you may have multiple offhand weapons, but to use this feat you'd have to pick one. Also, this is a terrible feat, and you should never allow yourself to get into any kind of situation where you might even be tempted to use this feat.



Same for Double Hit, but dealing with AoOs.


Gonna have to stick with the specific text here... it only mentions one offhand attack, so that's all you get.



And for Two-Weapon Pounce.


Same here... text only mentions two weapons. However, you may have a stronger argument that the intent here was to allow an attack with a weapon in each hand. But that would likely be a house rule.



Now unlike TWF, MWF does not have a progression of feats, it's just the one.
So there's that.


Well, not exactly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greaterMultiweaponFighting).



On the other hand, there are templates from official books(Multiheaded; SS125) which provide features such as this one:
Superior Two-Weapon Fighting or Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): Because each head controls one arm (or analogous weapon-using limb), a multiheaded creature has no penalty on attack rolls for attacking with multiple weapons, and the number of attacks and the damage bonus for each weapon are calculated as though the weapon were held in a primary hand.
This is like the entire progression of all TWF feats rolled up into one feature. Sidenote: Along with a literal crapton of other perks for a measly LA+2, which IMHO make this the single best template for a martial character that exists in the history of the universe! And pretty decent for other folks too.
Aaanyway...


It's not quite just a LA+2 template, as it also adds two racial hit die to the creature per head. So ECL goes up by at least +4. However... if you have multiple arms, then you can eliminate *ALL* TWF/MWF penalties, regardless of whether your weapons are light/one-handed/etc.

[Psyren]

Now unlike TWF, MWF does not have a progression of feats, it's just the one.
So there's that.

In Pathfinder, you're encouraged to let ITWF and GTWF work with MWF. However they've said that you should only get the extra attacks for one of your offhands rather than all of them to try and keep things sane.

[atemu1234]

In Pathfinder, you're encouraged to let ITWF and GTWF work with MWF. However they've said that you should only get the extra attacks for one of your offhands rather than all of them to try and keep things sane.

Is it really that much of a grey area?

[Psyren]

Is it really that much of a grey area?

Not sure what you're asking here, can you clarify?

[atemu1234]

Not sure what you're asking here, can you clarify?

That they need to say you should allow it, rather than you are supposed to allow it?

[Psyren]

That they need to say you should allow it, rather than you are supposed to allow it?

Oh, you mean why didn't they just mandate it?

I assume they left it more open so that GMs who want to keep multi-armed characters from getting those two feats (since they have the same number of attacks at a GTWFer anyway even without them) could feel more comfortable restricting them if they chose. But I'm not a dev, so take that with however much salt you deem necessary.