PDA

View Full Version : [Trait] Asperger's Syndrome



RMS Oceanic
2007-04-16, 06:12 AM
I've heard of flaws you can have your character suffer from, so I came up with one that gives you benefits as well.

Asperger's Syndrome
AS is a mental condition, a variant of Autism. Those who have autism tend to see the world differently. While many people with Autism have difficulty communicating with others or social problems, this can be offset by remarkable talents of a savant level.

Autism is a trait that must be taken at the character's creation. It has the following effects on a character:
- +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. People with AS are capable of great feats of intellect, but are awkward in social situations and have a knack for saying the wrong thing.
- Alignment: Any nonchaotic. People with AS like routine, and are confounded by unexpected events and unpredictable people. As a result, they themselves don't tend to be compulsive or whimsical.
- A -2 penalty to bluff checks. People with AS do not understand that people do not know what they know. This belief that the person they are attempting to deceive already knows the truth makes them bad liars.
- A -2 penalty to sense motive checks. People with AS have a tendency to take what people say at face value, and believe what they are told. They also don't understand metaphors or implied meaning.
- A -2 penalty to diplomacy checks. People with AS tend to say what they think, and are usually oblivious to how other people might perceive it. This occasionally leads to trouble.
- For each point of Int bonus, a person with AS selects one craft(any), knowledge(any), profession(any) or perform(musical instrument or singing) skill. These skills are always considered class skills to the person with AS, regardless of which class they advance in.
- +2 bonus to all will saves. Despite his poor wisdom, a person with autism is usually stubborn and single-minded once he reaches a decision, and people find it difficult to change his mind, even through magic.

I haven't worked it out completely, and it's pretty much house-rule stuff. What do you think?

Who
2007-04-16, 06:17 AM
As a person with Autism I've got to say that covers it very well. Kudos

DarkLightDragon
2007-04-16, 06:23 AM
I'm also mildly autistic, and this seems okay. I'm definitely not lawful though.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-16, 06:23 AM
Would an autistic person like to adventure?

This flaw, like most flaws, is tailored to min-maxing casters. +4 to intelligence? Are ye mad?

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-16, 06:25 AM
Because this hasn't been done half a dozen times on this very board or anything.

DarkLightDragon
2007-04-16, 06:27 AM
Are you two trying to insult?

Yeah, I can assume things pretty quick.

Lòkki Gallansbayne
2007-04-16, 06:33 AM
As a represenation of Autism it's pretty good, even if it does represent the milder end of the spectrum. (I have two brothers on the autistic spectrum. One of them this flaw pretty much represents exactly - the bonus knowledge skills and stuff are an especially nice touch. The other one, if they were a D&D character, wouldn't even be able to speak Common).

However, it's not really comparable to the exist flaws (at least those in the SRD): most of those are purely negative in their effects. Remember that the point of taking flaws, other than for flavour, is that you get to a pick an extra feat at 1st level to make up for it, which is why flaws shouldn't confer benefits themselves. They are, in effect, negative feats: taking a flaw is like taking minus one feat. If anything, in purely crunch terms this is feels more like a template or a sub-race, especially with the bonuses/penalties to ability scores. As far as I know no flaw actually imposes penalties to ability scores themselves (although some impose penalties to ability score checks) and the only feats that allow you to permanently increase ability scores are class features of prestige classes and some epic feats.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-16, 06:34 AM
I don't need to try, buddy. jaykay.

From what I understand of those suffering from more severe cases of autism, they really, really don't like change. A steady, predictable, stable environment is a premium they strive for. As adventuring involves going places, meeting people, and a great deal of unpredictability, I think that autism, as a flaw, would need more 'flaws', esp. with that +4 to int, and all that knowledge skill goodies (that's like 2 or 3 feats!).

Reading the wikipedia entry on autism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#Key_behaviors, I'm suddenly struck by the number of PC adventurers that exhibit practically all those characteristics.

[edit]
Oh, right, and what you have here is more of a 'template' than a flaw.

Reinboom
2007-04-16, 06:44 AM
As mentioned before, flaws don't naturally give bonuses because of their 'anti-feat' esque qualities.
Also, not all autistic people are strictly lawful in nature. I would consider myself to be neutral, for example. One of my nephues, also, is extremely chaotic in nature.

DarkLightDragon
2007-04-16, 06:52 AM
Some of us are also very good at paying attention/focusing on things that we find interesting. Maybe, for a template (since this does seem like one), there could be bonuses on search, spot and listen under certain circumstances.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-16, 06:58 AM
Maybe have the person fascinated on a single 'focus', like trains or clockmaking or something. They get +2 craft, profession and knowledge checks involving anything with their focus. Get rid of the current bonuses to those skills. The autistic creature become fascinated if within 60' of their focus, and must make a DC X will save. X scales with the magnitude of the presence of their focus. Or something.

XtheYeti
2007-04-16, 07:12 AM
The idea is good but it definitly should be a template. also the negitive should only affect dealing with people, because charisma is also how likeable you are, i have cousins with autism and the are adorible. i think that you should impose penalties on just bluff but not on diplomisy, because from my experience my cousins can change people's dispostion quite well.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-16, 07:34 AM
This should be a trait since flaws have to be completly negative. A flaw should only give an advantage in those rare times when you want to be bad at something.

If you want it to be a flaw then remove the benifits and take skill focus as your bonus feat.

Grey Paladin
2007-04-16, 07:41 AM
+4 to INT? riiiight.

Some autists (by far not the most) show intelligence higher then average by a significant amount, but this quality has nothing to do with their condition, the condition just seems to be more common in such people.

While a rather large -minority- of autists displays a larger degree of intelligence then the average person stat bonuses are there to represent the average within the group, and I am rather sure the average IQ of autists is not 140.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-16, 07:44 AM
+4 to INT? riiiight.

Yeah, that's like giving dyslexic people -2 int because they can't memorise pointless letter chains.

Gungnir
2007-04-16, 08:08 AM
I don't really like it, just because autism is such a variable thing. I have Asperger's Syndrome, one variety of it, and I'm best described as Chaotic Insane, as far as alignments go.

Although, it might make a fun template to apply to NPCs.

"WHY IS THIS KOBOLD BEATING MY WIZARD AT CHESS?!?!"

RMS Oceanic
2007-04-16, 08:22 AM
Thanks for your comments, everyone. I myself have Aspergers, so this flaw was based off my own experiences, as well as what I've read. Yeah, it does read like a template.

Lòkki Gallansbayne
2007-04-16, 08:44 AM
Thanks for your comments, everyone. I myself have Aspergers, so this flaw was based off my own experiences, as well as what I've read. Yeah, it does read like a template. That explains why it fits the first brother I mentionned so well; he's also Asperger's.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-16, 09:56 AM
As another person with Aspergers, I have to say this is a pretty good representation, but it is defintiely a trait and not a flaw.

I would also say that it might be best to have a range of traits to simulate the range of severity.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-16, 10:05 AM
The problem with the +4 Int is that it DnD already has rules for very intelligent people. I'd suggest giving it an Intelligence prerequisite instead.

Maldraugedhen
2007-04-16, 09:24 PM
With as powerful a stat bonus as that +4 is, this does strike me more as a Trait--although, it does not follow the Trait guideline of 'must provide penalty relevant to bonus'. This'd be a tough one to stat out for either Flaw or Trait--unless you cranked up the severity of the penalties and / or shrank the bonus down (for Flaw).

knightsaline
2007-04-16, 10:11 PM
I too have aspergers syndrome. I think that one of the downsides for this flaw is that the character has to take medication in order to function properly. failure to take this medication results in a will penalty. I base that on the fact that I do stupid things unmedicated. medicated or not, aspergers sufferers are chaotic, while autism sufferers tend to be lawful or True neutral (its hard to judge someones alignment when they don't speak or are even in touch with the world).

if you need a medication for this flaw, call it scriblin. it negates the will penalty assossiated with unmedicated people with the [Autism] family of disorders. selling the medication is a chaotic and evil act. the medication must be prescribed by a telepath with 10 ranks in Profession (psychologist) or Knowledge (mental disorders).

I would love to see someone create an association which membership is limited to those with flaws from the [autism] family of flaws.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-18, 01:08 PM
I feel like this flaw plays into a negative stereotype of people with autism: that they are hyper-intelligent savants.

Furthermore, a -2 to bluff or sense motive does not do justice to the kind of social interactivity issues that autism can cause.

The "Rainman" image of Autism does not represent the condition as a whole, and many, if not most, people with autism are not defined by great intelligence but rather only extreme social withdrawal or great difficulty in interacting with the outside world.

Furthermore, as a Flaw it does not work in game terms: because flaws grant you a free feat; they must be entirely negative, which means no bonus to intelligence, skills or will saves.

Last_resort_33
2007-04-19, 02:38 AM
I take it that we're talking high functioning autism here... or Asperger's Syndrome. There is a vast gulf between high functioning autistics and low funtioning autistics

Caelestion
2007-04-19, 03:47 AM
Quite apart from the fact that it's drawing out all the autistic/AS people here and the fact that it has been done to death before (thank Asmodeus for no magic talking lightning rail carriages this time around), it's too powerful and tries to cover too many bases.

Amend the Int bonus to +2, as they can be quite smart but also distinctly average.
Give -2 to Listen, Search and Spot as well, as they can be thunderingly unaware. Visual defects are often associated with autism too.
Leave out the Perform bonuses and amend the Craft/Knowledge/Profession checks to include Perform.
While I agree with the alignment listed (I am definitely lawful), being any other alignment might indicate other conditions mixed in with the autism.

Serpentine
2007-04-19, 04:22 AM
Wow, there are rude people here.
I think I mostly agree with Caelestion, especially re. the reduced Int bonus. I also agree with others that it's much more a trait than a flaw or template. I also think it's quite reasonable to assume that this is based on milder cases, and that people with more severe cases are unlikely to be adventuring anyway, making different versions unneccessary. I don't know about the alignment restriction, but the reasoning given seems pretty sound.

Caelestion
2007-04-19, 06:05 AM
I feel like this flaw plays into a negative stereotype of people with autism: that they are hyper-intelligent savants.
The only positive stereotypes of autisim that I can think of is that they're generally dedicated and often excellent in jobs focussing on their specific interests. Then again, this IS a disability, so what do you expect?

paigeoliver
2007-04-19, 06:24 AM
That isn't a flaw, that is a template with about a +2 level adjust. A whole bunch of special abilities combined with a few drawbacks that can be completely ignored. If you introduced that as written every single wizard in your game (along with most rogues, fighters, and barbarians) would be suffer from autism.

That flaw is actually a lot better than most prestige classes and is way better than just about any player race. What that flaw will introduce is not people attempting to roleplay autistic characters, what it will introduce is wizards with 22 INT at first level (24 if you allow grey elves or any other +2 INT race), fighters and barbarians taking it because it doesn't hurt them at all but gives some nifty bonuses, and rogues taking it because +4 INT is enough to make a rogue forget about bluff, sense motive and diplomacy. Not to mention the fact that the extra 4 points of INT gives enough skill points to almost completely offset every negative effect on the skill checks via extra skill points (not just the specific -2 skills, even the effects of the lower wisdom and charisma).

knightsaline
2007-04-19, 07:53 PM
I feel sorry for trying to make this flaw with a fascination with magical caravans that are able to talk *raises hand* it was me.

I still think that part of the flaw should be a dependency on medication. have any of you non autistics ever met someone with ADD unmedicated? they do stupid things without medication. I myself used to be the impulsive afraid of nothing child who wasted his pocket money on stupid things, but medication calmed me down. I don't think I would have passed my final exams without medication. but thats just me.

the thing about magical caravans that are able to talk, that was from some research I personally did. most aspies seem to have an affinity with the train system and its complex timetables. that and most aspies loved thomas the tank engine at some point in their life.

If I designed the flaw, it would have may feats based upon it, building up to a +10 on spellcraft checks regarding creating new spells/maneuvers/finding new vestiges/ chicken sacrifices/ whatever. I still think auties are mildly psionic.

Demented
2007-04-19, 09:18 PM
I myself used to be the impulsive afraid of nothing child who wasted his pocket money on stupid things

Y'know, that alone doesn't sound so awkward to me. ...Impulsively spending all your money on gumballs so you can make a gumball pyramid in the middle of an intersection... that is awkward. And entirely fictional, of course.



As for the flaw... Such a flaw would be better as a generic or fictional mental disorder, with non-specific penalties. Not only does it toss out the need to make the idea socially "correct" (though there are still some practical limits), but you can ignore the desire for "realistic"* symptoms.

* Actually, 'characteristic' would be a more appropriate term. Since D20 is built arbitrarily, realism is in the eye of the beholder.

Icewalker
2007-04-19, 09:21 PM
I like it. Reminds me of me. I'd throw in a bonus language though.

knightsaline
2007-04-19, 09:57 PM
yeah, but make it a really obscure language, like al bhed

Icewalker
2007-04-19, 10:04 PM
Yeah, that'd be fun. Should be just one free obscure language. Could have to be a dead language, that'd be awesome.

paigeoliver
2007-04-21, 07:24 AM
Ok, lets do the real and total math on this flaw. Before I just did the math quickly in my head.

First just the effects of the ability score changes without considering extra skill points from int. Considering a character to have only a single perform, profession and craft since those are open ended and few characters have more than a single one.

Loosing 2 points of wisdom has an overall effect of -6 on skill checks. Losing 2 points of charisma has an overall effect of -8 on skill checks. Gaining 4 points of intelligence adds 34 overall on skill checks.

So far we are at +20.

Specific penalties add another -6.

We are now at +14 on skills.

Specific bonuses add another plus 10. We will ignore the perform bit since that is variable.

Now we are at +24 on skills.

An autistic character will recieve 8 more skill points than normal at 1st level because of a higher intelligence, and will continue to receive 2 extra skill points per level forever.

Meaning that the autistic FLAW gives a BONUS of +32 skill points at first level and a +1 overall on will saves. Normally a feat (not a flaw) gives you about 4 skill points or +2 on a save. So at first level this flaw would cost 8 and a half feats. By second level it is worth 9 feats, and is worth another feat every other even numbered level after that.

As far as the ability score adjustments themselves? It drops the 2 easiest to ignore scores and raises one of the strongest ones.

My suggestion is a minimum level adjust of +3. This character means a 1st level wizard tossing spells with a save DC of 20, or a first level rogue with a disable device of +17.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-21, 03:30 PM
I like it. Reminds me of me. I'd throw in a bonus language though.
I really don't think people here are fully respecting how debilitating autism can actually be. Although high-functioning autistics can indeed sometimes exhibit some of the "talents" discussed here, low-functioning autistics are extremely limited in social and interactional capabilities with none of these "funny bonuses."

RMS Oceanic
2007-04-21, 04:32 PM
You're right. This reads more as Asperger's Syndrome, rather than Autism. I'm gonna clarify it.

Lòkki Gallansbayne
2007-04-21, 04:38 PM
^ ^ Aye, from my experiences of low-functioning autistics (as I say, I have a brother who suffers from it), they'd be pretty much unplayable due to the social difficulties. I'd assumed pretty much from the get-go that this was more intended to represent something on the higher-functioning end of the spectrum, such as Asperger's Syndrome, which my other brother has and it, like I say, it matches him pretty well. Naturally neither of them is going to be an accurate representation of the condition in general, but I reckon they give me a good feel for it.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-21, 09:11 PM
You're right. This reads more as Asperger's Syndrome, rather than Autism. I'm gonna clarify it.
Alright, seems good then. I'm sorry if I came off as critical, but my mother has dealt with the Autistic for most of her life and I didn't feel like it was fair to only represent the high-functioning while calling it basic Autism.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-22, 12:46 PM
In my opinion if you roll a 3 and an 18 you can put the 18 in Int and the 3 in Cha and say that a modern psychologist would diagnose him as autistic.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-22, 01:53 PM
In my opinion if you roll a 3 and an 18 you can put the 18 in Int and the 3 in Cha and say that a modern psychologist would diagnose him as autistic.

Autism as a condition has nothing to do with high intelligence.
This person would probably be considered autistic, but only because he had the 3 in Charisma, he could have had anywhere from 18-5 Int and it wouldn't have changed the diagnosis.

Many autistics struggle terribly in life and the idea that they're super-genius savants who can count cards and play perfect piano solos is not helping them.
This is a debilitating condition and it is highly innappropriate to treat it so casually.

Demented
2007-04-22, 05:26 PM
Sans the penalty to Sense Motive, the trait could easily be applied as College Professor (Template). It could even be Eccentricity (Flaw) if you turn the int bonus into a prerequisite and skip the will save bonus.

Which just goes to show that, in psychology, the sum is more than the whole of its parts.
/butcher:phrase

Kamakazee_Gnome
2007-04-23, 12:57 AM
As someone with Asperger's, I think I can reliably object to the WIS penalty (WIS is basically my top stat), the Bluff penaly (While I can't relate to others, I can be sure they can't relate well to me.), and the craft/preform/profession thing (honestly, I have very little in the way of such skills)

The CHA penalty needs to be more, though. And there should possibly be a Concentration penalty (Us Aspy's + Noisy enviornments = bad). Also, possibly Knowledge being an untrained skill (We remember random things, sometimes they're even relevent... but rarely)

Also, remove the allignment restriction. I know others with aspergers that simply despise authority (heck, I was like that once).

So, here's what I'd put:

- +2 int, -4 CHA
- no allignment restrictions
- -2 sense motive
- -2 Diplomacy
- -2 Concentration (and -2 to Int, Wis, and Cha while in a noisy enviornment, unless a concentration check is made (not sure on the DC)
- -+2 to will saves
- Knowledge skills can be used untrained.

Of course, this is just my perspective. Your expirience may vary.

Caelestion
2007-04-24, 11:55 AM
Many autistics struggle terribly in life and the idea that they're super-genius savants who can count cards and play perfect piano solos is not helping them.
This is a debilitating condition and it is highly innappropriate to treat it so casually.
The irony of course is that quite a lot of people with high-functioning autism have some outstanding talents - and they still suffer terribly...


[Various rebuttals to the comments so far...]
Well, going on the "expected" person, they are hidebound, very slow to change or adapt, hopeless at telling lies or spotting them, sometimes very unaware of their own surroundings (Wisdom, Listen, Spot) and can often find great pleasure and skill in an entirely personal activity, such as music or crafts.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-04-24, 06:01 PM
Having this exact diagnosis myself, I must say that it looks like you did your homework on this one. I know nothing of optimization, I'm not qualified to talk about balance issues or such. However, why exactly is this a flaw? I do not consider my neurological condition as such, and I certainly hope you don't either. Besides, this includes potential benefits in with the penalties. This would probably be best described like it is in the title, rather than in your post.

Caelestion
2007-04-24, 07:39 PM
Well, generally those smart and clued-up enough to even be here debating the pros and cons of Asperger's are clearly gifted enough not to necessarily consider it a completely bad thing. Let's not be coy - Asperger's is definitely a disability (or "difficulty" if you will), but then I can't really imagine myself without it (which I guess, is half the point).

mikeejimbo
2007-04-24, 07:49 PM
Sans the penalty to Sense Motive, the trait could easily be applied as College Professor (Template). It could even be Eccentricity (Flaw) if you turn the int bonus into a prerequisite and skip the will save bonus.

Which just goes to show that, in psychology, the sum is more than the whole of its parts.
/butcher:phrase

I tried to make an Eccentricity flaw once. Or maybe it was a trait, and kind of similar to this.

RMS Oceanic
2007-04-25, 03:46 AM
Zousha, if you look at the title, I've reclassified it as a trait, not a flaw.