Help with Druid/Scout Swift Hunter Build

[somehownotsingl]

I need help choosing some feats for my Druid/Scout Swift Hunter Build. Please feel feel to suggest feats for the ??? sections, as well as critique overall feat choices.

BACK STORY: He's a guy who tried religious service (Cloistered Cleric Dip), but grew disillusioned with it and went to fight on the frontier (Scout). Eventually, he reconciled his religious leanings with his love of the outdoors (Druid).

A few things up front:
1) For now, he's a human, but this is negotiable. I picked human mainly for the free first level feat, but since I have feat spots to spare in my current build, I'm willing to consider other races.

2) The Druid's animal companion has been dropped as a way of nerfing the class in this campaign

3) I chose to give up wildshape for the swift and deadly hunter ACF (Gain Ranger Favored Enemy, Track, Swift Tracker, Monk AC bonus, Monk speed bonus). This is purely a character concept choice (I wanted a swift hunter with good spells). I don't want wildshape.

4) Though RAW for Swift Hunter feat refers to Ranger FE and Scout Skirmish stacking, I am allowed to use my Druid's FE (ACF) for the purpose of the feat.

Cloistered Cleric 1: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain); Travel Devotion (Travel Domain); Rapid Shot (Human); Precise Shot (Level 1 Character)
Scout 1
Scout 2 ??? (Level 3 character)
Scout 3
Scout 4 ??? (Scout's bonus feat)
Druid 1: Swift Hunter (Level 6 character)
Druid 2
Druid 3
Druid 4: Improved Skirmish (Level 9 character)
Druid 5
Druid 6
Druid 7: Manyshot (level 12 character)
Druid 8
Druid 9
Druid 10: Greater Manyshot (level 15 character)
Druid 11
Druid 12
Druid 13: Improved Precise Shot (level 18 character)
Druid 14
Druid 15

[somehownotsingl]

I considered a feat to get access to a better bow than the Scout's shortbow, but since the character's damage really comes from skirmishing, I didn't know if going from 1d6 to 1d8 or 1d10 was worth a feat.

[Troacctid]

I'd just drop the 4th level of Scout and replace it with another Druid level if you don't need the extra feat. It's going to be more valuable to accelerate your spellcasting than your BAB. Either that or delay it so you can get Improved Skirmish or Swift Hunter as the bonus feat.

Raptoran might be a fun race, since you're not getting flight from your wildshaping.

[Hiro Quester]

You might consider Anthropomorphic Bat for race: -4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft. (fly 20 ft. average), blindsense (ex), druid favored class, monstrous humanoid, (SS 215) all for 0LA.

The +6 wisdom helps Druid casting. Having a fly speed and monstrous humanoid makes flyby attack open as a feat.

[ace rooster]

Am I missing something; Isn't swift hunter explicitly ranger levels? Sure you qualify for it, but it is quite a stretch to go from stacking ranger to stacking a full casting class.

Anyway, assuming that is ignored, why not go with produce flame as your go-to attack? It is low damage, but touch attacks and can be rapid shotted. Complete arcane has a section on using spells for sneak attack and similar effects, so you get skirmish damage. I would try to fit in practiced spellcaster I think, rather than going for greater manyshot.

Incidently, what sort of back story cheese do you have for being a human with the elf domain? :smalltongue:

[somehownotsingl]

Am I missing something; Isn't swift hunter explicitly ranger levels? Sure you qualify for it, but it is quite a stretch to go from stacking ranger to stacking a full casting class.

Anyway, assuming that is ignored, why not go with produce flame as your go-to attack? It is low damage, but touch attacks and can be rapid shotted. Complete arcane has a section on using spells for sneak attack and similar effects, so you get skirmish damage. I would try to fit in practiced spellcaster I think, rather than going for greater manyshot.

Incidently, what sort of back story cheese do you have for being a human with the elf domain? :smalltongue:

Practiced Spellcaster is a great call!

As for the swift hunter house rule, all the feat does to help a ranger is advance FE. Given what the Druid gives up to get FE and given the non-game-breaking nature of FE, I really don't see any issue. It seems like you've been playing DnD much longer than me, so I'm genuinely curious why that bothers you (i.e. what am I missing?).

As for the elf domain ... yeah, haven't gotten around to justifying that in the backstory :-) In fact, since I have a few empty feat slots to work with, I might not even try, and just take point blank shot the old fashioned way.

[Theodred theOld]

If all you're looking for is the spell list, I would consider dropping druid entirely and going with spirit shaman. Gives you spontaneous casting from a small list that you can choose daily plus a small handful of situational spirit related powers and the ability to go incorporeal at higher levels. Could be useful for a skirmisher when the dm has you blocked in and you need to move.

[Troacctid]

If all you're looking for is the spell list, I would consider dropping druid entirely and going with spirit shaman. Gives you spontaneous casting from a small list that you can choose daily plus a small handful of situational spirit related powers and the ability to go incorporeal at higher levels. Could be useful for a skirmisher when the dm has you blocked in and you need to move.

Since Spirit Shaman doesn't give you Favored Enemy, that seems bad.

[Seharvepernfan]

Be an elf. You'll get proficiency with longbows, longswords, and rapiers, a bonus to important skills, and +2 dex. It also justifies your elf domain.

Don't you need precise shot at some point? You have improved precise shot, but no precise shot. Nevermind, I saw it.

[ace rooster]

Practiced Spellcaster is a great call!

As for the swift hunter house rule, all the feat does to help a ranger is advance FE. Given what the Druid gives up to get FE and given the non-game-breaking nature of FE, I really don't see any issue. It seems like you've been playing DnD much longer than me, so I'm genuinely curious why that bothers you (i.e. what am I missing?).

As for the elf domain ... yeah, haven't gotten around to justifying that in the backstory :-) In fact, since I have a few empty feat slots to work with, I might not even try, and just take point blank shot the old fashioned way.

You are giving up a lot, but favored enemy is not the only thing you are getting, and frankly druid has class features out it's eyeballs. Wis to AC (including touch and flat footed) is really not something to ignore on a wisdom based full caster, especially on a dex build with extra dodge bonus built in.

I'm not saying it is game breaking (or even on par with a standard druid), just considerably more powerful than a standard swift hunter. Produce flame and Flame blade mean that they can always go with touch attacks, while barkskin, cats grace, and owls wisdom all boost their AC further. This is only the stuff they can do with 2nd level spells.


Further to what Seharvepernfan said, a wild elf in particular gets you back the con, but I think I would go with kobold.

[Dolour]

looking at how you give up on your companion and shapeshift, plus the desired feats, lead me to question weather druid would be your best pick...
if your GM allows for zen archery to qualify your racial favored weapon(elf, longbow) as KI weapon, and work with flurry of throws,
"monkcher" (11monk/6ranger/2shunter/1ccleric for example) is great fun, and a crapton of arrows flying through the air.

/edit: make sure your GM's fine with flurry and manyshot stacking tho...

[Seharvepernfan]

Produce flame and Flame blade

You are correct, but I just want to point out that produce flame can also be used in melee. It's pretty much the perfect weapon spell for precision damage users.

Faerie fire is also nice in that it will let you deal precision damage to enemies you otherwise wouldn't be able to.

[PseudoPanda]

If Produce Flame does become your attack of choice (which is a good idea at higher levels) then I suggest Searing Spell from Sandstorm and Extend Spell in order to make sure you actually damage opponents and don't have to constantly renew the spell (since it's duration reduces every time you throw it). Energy Substitution can replace searing spell but that requires some foresight into what you'll be facing.

Your turn undead attempts are probably exclusively for Travel Devotion but your Druid spell can be modified with Divine Metamagic.

[Dolour]

produce flame becomes real fun when beefed by fell drain, using it "just" as a source of damage is sort ofa waste. ;)

[ace rooster]

produce flame becomes real fun when beefed by fell drain, using it "just" as a source of damage is sort ofa waste. ;)

yeah, but some druids are not fond of the idea of creating wights from any enemies that they cannot dispose of the bodies of. :smalltongue:

[Doctor Awkward]

I considered a feat to get access to a better bow than the Scout's shortbow, but since the character's damage really comes from skirmishing, I didn't know if going from 1d6 to 1d8 or 1d10 was worth a feat.

It's not.



Improved Precise Shot is also a waste of a feat.

Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) weapon property does everything that you need from that feat.

This build also needs more Zen Archery, on account of the BAB lost from not being a ranger, and ESPECIALLY with Wis to AC. No reason not to be a one-stat class.

Definitely drop Rapid Shot. It does not function with Manyshot, which is a far better choice for Swift Hunters.
That level of Cloistered Cleric is also nothing but clutter that you don't need (since you are clearly trying to write a character history around it).


Maybe something like this would work better for you:

Scout 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (Human)
Druid 1
Scout 2: Zen Archery
Scout 3:
Scout 4: Swift Hunter (Scout Bonus)
Druid 2: Improved Skirmish
Druid 3:
Druid 4:
Druid 5: Practiced Spellcaster
Druid 6:
Druid 7:
Druid 8: Rapid Shot
Druid 9:
Druid 10:
Druid 11: Manyshot
Druid 12:
Druid 13:
Druid 14: Greater Manyshot
Druid 15:
Druid 16:

For other miscellaneous bits consider the skill trick Spot the Weak Point, from the same book as Swift Hunter. For 12 Ranks in Spot, once per combat, you can roll a Spot check vs their AC (trivial, since you are wisdom-based) and roll your next attack as a touch attack.
Also see if you can find a way to snag the 3rd level ranger spell Find the Gap (either ask to gank it from the Ranger list, or get it in a wand), which lets you resolve your first attack every round for rounds/caster level as a touch attack. Manyshot only uses one attack.

You don't qualify for Manyshot until level 9, on account of BAB issues. Other than that, you can shuffle the feats around however you like. I only put them in that order because spells are generally better than shooting things.

[ace rooster]

It's not.



Improved Precise Shot is also a waste of a feat.

Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) weapon property does everything that you need from that feat.

This build also needs more Zen Archery, on account of the BAB lost from not being a ranger, and ESPECIALLY with Wis to AC. No reason not to be a one-stat class.

Definitely drop Rapid Shot. It does not function with Manyshot, which is a far better choice for Swift Hunters.
That level of Cloistered Cleric is also nothing but clutter that you don't need (since you are clearly trying to write a character history around it).


Maybe something like this would work better for you:

Scout 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (Human)
Druid 1
Scout 2: Zen Archery
Scout 3:
Scout 4: Swift Hunter (Scout Bonus)
Druid 2: Improved Skirmish
Druid 3:
Druid 4:
Druid 5: Practiced Spellcaster
Druid 6:
Druid 7:
Druid 8: Rapid Shot
Druid 9:
Druid 10:
Druid 11: Manyshot
Druid 12:
Druid 13:
Druid 14: Greater Manyshot
Druid 15:
Druid 16:

For other miscellaneous bits consider the skill trick Spot the Weak Point, from the same book as Swift Hunter. For 12 Ranks in Spot, once per combat, you can roll a Spot check vs their AC (trivial, since you are wisdom-based) and roll your next attack as a touch attack.
Also see if you can find a way to snag the 3rd level ranger spell Find the Gap (either ask to gank it from the Ranger list, or get it in a wand), which lets you resolve your first attack every round for rounds/caster level as a touch attack. Manyshot only uses one attack.

You don't qualify for Manyshot until level 9, on account of BAB issues. Other than that, you can shuffle the feats around however you like. I only put them in that order because spells are generally better than shooting things.

This build is limited to using items to get more than one skirmish damage a round till level 18, (manyshot explicitly only gives it once, and is dreadful for skirmish) which was the whole point of the level of cleric (travel devotion granting skirmish to rapid shot). Asking the DM to add more spells to the druid list is a little obnoxious, and you can't cast spells not on your list from a wand without UMD, but the skill trick is definately worth considering. It will only grant you one touch attack per encounter though.

If you want to get manyshot you are going to need a dex of 17 anyway, at which point you can't be a single stat character.



For other feats that might be worth looking into, Expeditious dodge from races of the wild gives you a +2 to AC when you move 40' (ie always) and can be used as dodge for prerequisites. Sidestep charge (complete psionics or srd psionics secion) is then nice, but even mobility becomes an option (Against enemies with only one AoO a round, getting them to waste it can be very effective. It removes the primary defense against grapples and disarms from anyone on your team. It also means that team-mates without tumble access are free to disengage, which if they are prone can be tricky), and shot on the run is viable. If you go that way don't forget your spiked gauntlet, and to always end your move flanking with someone (rogue) or threatening a caster (covering all the squares they could 5' adjust into is good enough)! If your team is organised then a rogue can ready an action to full attack when they get flanking, and you can grant a flank in the middle of your move.

I'm not saying that this is 'optimal', but they do all suit the archetype very well. This sort of build works really well as a team player, as well as being non trivial to play well (lots of options). These things are more important for how fun a build is to play than outright power in my experience, provided the party is not unbalanced in terms of power.

[Theodred theOld]

Since Spirit Shaman doesn't give you Favored Enemy, that seems bad.
It is bad, but giving up wildshape as a druid seems....also not good.

[Doctor Awkward]

This build is limited to using items to get more than one skirmish damage a round till level 18, (manyshot explicitly only gives it once, and is dreadful for skirmish)

Not even remotely true, but w/e

I suppose you have a way of proving that dealing not-pitiful skirmish damage for one minute per day (or two minutes to three minutes a day with a level of cleric) with Rapid Shot is somehow better than doing it all day with Manyshot? Travel Devotion requires you to give up your swift action every round it's active. No swift action spells, no swift action magic items (like Skirmisher's Boots).

For this particular build, that level of cloistered cleric is a dead albatross which adds nothing that can't be accomplished more efficiently in other ways.

And the earliest he can qualify for Greater Manyshot is level 12 regardless because he's lost so much BAB.



Asking the DM to add more spells to the druid list is a little obnoxious, and you can't cast spells not on your list from a wand without UMD, but the skill trick is definately worth considering. It will only grant you one touch attack per encounter though.
Considering what he's already given up I disagree. Asking for ONE spell (which he would have anyway with any normal Swift Hunter build) is a perfectly reasonable, and preferable, alternative to spending encounters raining nature's unbridled wrath down upon enemies he can't otherwise shoot in the face.


If you want to get manyshot you are going to need a dex of 17 anyway, at which point you can't be a single stat character.
Cat's Grace is a druid spell.

Dex of 13 + Cat's Grace = Prereq.

When funds become available he can buy a +4 Dex item.

This isn't something he even needs to seriously consider until level 12




For other feats that might be worth looking into, Expeditious dodge from races of the wild gives you a +2 to AC when you move 40' (ie always) and can be used as dodge for prerequisites. Sidestep charge (complete psionics or srd psionics secion) is then nice, but even mobility becomes an option (Against enemies with only one AoO a round, getting them to waste it can be very effective.

No. Just... just no.

This is awful advice. Giving your enemies free shots at you is a terrible idea, no matter the justification. The correct answer is to never give them the shot in the first place. 4 levels of scout gives him an extra 10 feet of movement. That means he moves 20 feet when he tumbles, which is enough to activate Improved Skirmish. It's a DC 15 Tumble check to deny one enemy his AoO. It's not that hard to hit, even with cross-class ranks. He auto-succeeds by level 7 with a Cat's Grace buff just by maxing tumble. Beyond that, competence bonus magic items are extremely inexpensive, a +5 is within the WBL of a level 3 character.

If you think enemies are going to try to charge you, then you end your movement behind one of your allies who would like to be charged, like the tank, an NPC meat shield, or a summoned critter (DRUID... remember??)

Swift Hunters are a feat-starved concept as it is, and you want him to take garbage like Mobility?


It removes the primary defense against grapples
What, you mean the size modifier?


and disarms from anyone on your team.
Because people who don't take Improved Disarm are the ones that attempt to disarm enemies the most?

I want you to seriously consider what you are suggesting here for one moment:
You encounter a humanoid enemy, and for some bizarre reason someone in the group decides they want to grapple it instead of hitting it with their vicious weaponry. Your recommended tactic is to have the ranged character run through his threatened area to deliberately provoke an AoO which (probably) won't hit, and then have the someone make a grapple attempt and hope he doesn't have combat reflexes so that their action for that round won't be completely wasted?

Do I even need to explain in all the ways in which that is a terrible plan?


It also means that team-mates without tumble access are free to disengage, which if they are prone can be tricky), and shot on the run is viable.

Anyone is free to disengage at no risk so long as their first square of movement takes them out of an opponents threatened range. If they are prone, tumble isn't going to help them anyway, since there is no "Tumble to standing" to avoid AoO's. And seriously, what lone enemy that is built for tripping is only going to have one AoO?

And, wow: Manyshot is "dreadful" but Shot on the Run is not? Even if it wasn't an awful feat by itself, it has a sunk cost of not one, but two, feats that are.


If you go that way don't forget your spiked gauntlet, and to always end your move flanking with someone (rogue) or threatening a caster (covering all the squares they could 5' adjust into is good enough)! If your team is organised then a rogue can ready an action to full attack when they get flanking, and you can grant a flank in the middle of your move.

Holy crappin' Christ, no!

If you are an archer and a primary spellcaster, you do not go running or standing around in melee combat when you don't belong there.


I'm not saying that this is 'optimal', but they do all suit the archetype very well. This sort of build works really well as a team player, as well as being non trivial to play well (lots of options). These things are more important for how fun a build is to play than outright power in my experience, provided the party is not unbalanced in terms of power.

...

Because, full skirmish progression with 8th level Druid spellcasting would, by itself, be "trivial"?

Oh wait, no, this is much more interesting... "how 'fun' a build is to play" is more important than "outright power?"

Because real roleplayers don't have good characters, right? Like, being a "team player" and having an effective build are mutually exclusive concepts?

[ace rooster]

Not even remotely true, but w/e

I suppose you have a way of proving that dealing not-pitiful skirmish damage for one minute per day (or two minutes to three minutes a day with a level of cleric) with Rapid Shot is somehow better than doing it all day with Manyshot? Travel Devotion requires you to give up your swift action every round it's active. No swift action spells, no swift action magic items (like Skirmisher's Boots).

erm...


Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once




For this particular build, that level of cloistered cleric is a dead albatross which adds nothing that can't be accomplished more efficiently in other ways.

And the earliest he can qualify for Greater Manyshot is level 12 regardless because he's lost so much BAB.



Considering what he's already given up I disagree. Asking for ONE spell (which he would have anyway with any normal Swift Hunter build) is a perfectly reasonable, and preferable, alternative to spending encounters raining nature's unbridled wrath down upon enemies he can't otherwise shoot in the face.


Cat's Grace is a druid spell.

Dex of 13 + Cat's Grace = Prereq.

When funds become available he can buy a +4 Dex item.

This isn't something he even needs to seriously consider until level 12



No. Just... just no.

This is awful advice. Giving your enemies free shots at you is a terrible idea, no matter the justification. The correct answer is to never give them the shot in the first place. 4 levels of scout gives him an extra 10 feet of movement. That means he moves 20 feet when he tumbles, which is enough to activate Improved Skirmish. It's a DC 15 Tumble check to deny one enemy his AoO. It's not that hard to hit, even with cross-class ranks. He auto-succeeds by level 7 with a Cat's Grace buff just by maxing tumble. Beyond that, competence bonus magic items are extremely inexpensive, a +5 is within the WBL of a level 3 character.

If you think enemies are going to try to charge you, then you end your movement behind one of your allies who would like to be charged, like the tank, an NPC meat shield, or a summoned critter (DRUID... remember??)

wis to AC, natural armor access, and extra dodge bonus means that you are the tank. The idea is that the shot at you is instead of at one of your allies, it is not free.


Swift Hunters are a feat-starved concept as it is, and you want him to take garbage like Mobility?


What, you mean the size modifier?

Well obviously you don't grapple the ogre, you grapple the pixie wizard.



Because people who don't take Improved Disarm are the ones that attempt to disarm enemies the most?

Improved Disarm is two feats and an int of 13. Being able to grant half of the effect of the feat to an ally is big, and makes disarm a viable tactic.



I want you to seriously consider what you are suggesting here for one moment:
You encounter a humanoid enemy, and for some bizarre reason someone in the group decides they want to grapple it instead of hitting it with their vicious weaponry. Your recommended tactic is to have the ranged character run through his threatened area to deliberately provoke an AoO which (probably) won't hit, and then have the someone make a grapple attempt and hope he doesn't have combat reflexes so that their action for that round won't be completely wasted?

Do I even need to explain in all the ways in which that is a terrible plan?

Is it always a terrible plan, or is it just usually a terrible plan? It is an option, and an option you did not previously have. There are occasions when a disarm or a grapple is an appropriate attack, despite not having the feats to make it your primary attack. In these cases someone will be getting hit with an AoO, so it makes sense for the party tank to take the AoO instead.



Anyone is free to disengage at no risk so long as their first square of movement takes them out of an opponents threatened range. If they are prone, tumble isn't going to help them anyway, since there is no "Tumble to standing" to avoid AoO's. And seriously, what lone enemy that is built for tripping is only going to have one AoO?

Wolves for one, mounted enemies with trample are another, dragons with various feats, some spells, some metamagics, some traps, and any mook with a flail. Focused trippers are not the only way to end up prone, or even the most common one.



And, wow: Manyshot is "dreadful" but Shot on the Run is not? Even if it wasn't an awful feat by itself, it has a sunk cost of not one, but two, feats that are.

Manyshot makes you less likely to hit, for a small increase in damage. Your main damage output is going to be skirmish, and using manyshot will generally reduce your average damage unless you are hitting on a 6. Shot on the run lets you hit a target and finish your turn 50' away from the target, and out of line of effect. This can be far more useful.



Holy crappin' Christ, no!

If you are an archer and a primary spellcaster, you do not go running or standing around in melee combat when you don't belong there.

It is a swift hunter build; the whole point is that you keep moving and pick your fights. If you find an enemy who wants to be in melee less than you, then you want to be in melee with them.




...

Because, full skirmish progression with 8th level Druid spellcasting would, by itself, be "trivial"?

Oh wait, no, this is much more interesting... "how 'fun' a build is to play" is more important than "outright power?"

Because real roleplayers don't have good characters, right? Like, being a "team player" and having an effective build are mutually exclusive concepts?

By non-trivial I am comparing it to most of the other martial builds I see, which often have a very set combat routine and will employ it mechanically against whatever enemy they come up against (how many chargers can do anything but charge, or trippers trip). Casters are far less trivial, typically having at least a few good options, but I find that there is less scope for making up plans as you go instead of having a few premade routines.

I play to have fun, so I regard how much fun I am having as the primary concern. Would I choose to spend 50 hours of my life having to think about every turn, taking considered risks that could get my character killed, or go with a more "effective" uberdamage build, doing the same thing every turn. The second option doesn't look like a game to me. I agree that massively effective fun builds do exist (full casters), but they are not really related to the discussion, unless you want to suggest that the OP remove the scout from their build too. The advice I was giving was for building an effective swift hunter build that is fun to play, based on my experience of swift hunter builds. My experience is that mobility turned out to be hugely useful for the party on many occasions, to the surprise of all concerned. That particular character was the most fun I have had too, which is why I am not ashamed to push mobility, which is truly garbage on 99.9% of builds.

[Doctor Awkward]

erm...
...Greater Manyshot is skirmish damage all day.

It's more reliable than travel devotion, and more likely to fly at tables where fluff is an issue.




wis to AC, natural armor access, and extra dodge bonus means that you are the tank. The idea is that the shot at you is instead of at one of your allies, it is not free.

No it doesn't. That is the opposite of a tank.

This isn't a video game.
Enemies do not have programmed combat routines that they constantly follow any more than the players do.

The ability to draw the attacks of your enemies in table-top D&D is vaguely crucial to the concept of a tank. Otherwise, any enemy with an Intelligence higher than 1 will ignore a target it can't hit in favor of one that it can.
It will take precisely one round for opponents to stop taking AoO's against an unhittable target.

If you are not actively preventing it, and in fact are actively causing it, it's free.



Is it always a terrible plan, or is it just usually a terrible plan? It is an option, and an option you did not previously have. There are occasions when a disarm or a grapple is an appropriate attack, despite not having the feats to make it your primary attack. In these cases someone will be getting hit with an AoO, so it makes sense for the party tank to take the AoO instead.
If there is ever a reason you want to take a target alive, there is never a better choice than bludgeoning it unconscious with subdual damage.

Combat is already one of the most stilted and time-consuming aspects of the game, and you want to drag it out longer than it needs to be by wasting rounds on maybes and hopefullys?


Wolves for one
You never ever fight just ONE wolf. They are pack hunters. You going to provoke from all of them?


mounted enemies with trample
...do not knock you down. And give you a reflex save. You have evasion.


dragons with various feats
...don't trip you. They cast spells and breath weapons until you stop moving.


some spells, some metamagics, some traps
Explain to me the threatened area the swift hunter is going to move through in order to provoke an AoO from those?


and any mook with a flail.
...is NOT going to succeed in tripping a proper melee character! Come on now.


Manyshot makes you less likely to hit, for a small increase in damage. Your main damage output is going to be skirmish, and using manyshot will generally reduce your average damage unless you are hitting on a 6.
Before Travel Devotion, Greater Manyshot was the only way to get decent skirmish damage. Period.

Now, for no reason, it's considered bad because Travel Devotion is marginally more effective for some part of the day. Because apparently, no DM ever does more than the recommended three to four encounters per day, and always follows the Sorting Algorithm of Evil by politely doing the weakest encounters first.
Spoiler alert: It never stopped being good. It's just now differently viable.


It is a swift hunter build; the whole point is that you keep moving and pick your fights. If you find an enemy who wants to be in melee less than you, then you want to be in melee with them.

It's a ranged swift hunter build backed by DRUID full spellcasting. There is no one who wants to be in melee combat less than he does.



By non-trivial I am comparing it to most of the other martial builds I see
It's not a martial build. It's an archery build. With druid spellcasting.


which often have a very set combat routine and will employ it mechanically against whatever enemy they come up against (how many chargers can do anything but charge, or trippers trip). Casters are far less trivial, typically having at least a few good options, but I find that there is less scope for making up plans as you go instead of having a few premade routines.

Well-played spellcasters do nothing but make up plans as they go along. Your spells are catch-alls, that can be used in a wide variety of situations with a little creativity.

A gish build like this has nothing but options every round of combat. There is no need for him to threaten his existence by attempting to wade into melee combat like he was one of the meatshields he can spontaneously summon if he needs to.



I agree that massively effective fun builds do exist (full casters), but they are not really related to the discussion, unless you want to suggest that the OP remove the scout from their build too.
No, the OP is asking for advice on choosing feats, as well as a critique on the feats he has chosen. You made (admittedly) terrible feat recommendations, followed by atrocious gameplay advice for the concept he is building towards.


The advice I was giving was for building an effective swift hunter build that is fun to play, based on my experience of swift hunter builds. My experience is that mobility turned out to be hugely useful for the party on many occasions, to the surprise of all concerned. That particular character was the most fun I have had too, which is why I am not ashamed to push mobility, which is truly garbage on 99.9% of builds.
Then you play in an exceedingly sub-optimal environment. I mean, like a 'Weapon-Focus-is-one-of-your-best-choices' level of suboptimal. And the OP wasn't asking for what you personally consider fun, he was asking for what was good.

[ZupaK]

I was about to start a thread on my build question when I saw this one. And since my indeas are quite similar, here goes:

I am also planning on playing a skirmishing druid and I'd like to make something interesting out of the swift hunter variant from UA page 58.

This is what I have in mind so far, driven by flavour:
- Halfling, subtype to be discussed
- First Druid level will be the racial substitution level for Halflings from RotW (is the combination with the swift hunter variant possible?)
- Animal companion must be something I can ride and don't need to leave outside once I enter a city (nothing too weird)
- Probably will use a sling as missile weapon

Now I need to complete the picture, driven by viability, but not ruining flavour.
Any suggestions are welcome, including multiclassing with the scout class, feat selection, and ways to expand general usefulness outside combat (healing comes to mind, as we're always short on healers).

[Extra Anchovies]

Swift Hunter only stacks Ranger and Scout levels. The feat makes no mention of Druid. Although it has favored enemy as a prerequisite, the actual benefit of the feat is this:

Your ranger and scout levels stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage and bonus to Armor Class granted when skirmishing.
Sorry to disappoint. Ask your DM if you can stack scout and deadly hunter via houserule, but by RAW you can't.

[nedz]

Be an elf, dip Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine p61), grab the travel domain and swap it for Travel devotion.
This will save you needing the Cleric dip - good though that is.

Elf
Scout 1 / Druid 3 / Scout +1 / SotMI 1 / Druid +1 / Scout +1 / Druid +X
Travel Devotion at 6th, Swift Hunter at 9th
or
Scout 1 / Druid 3 / Scout +2 / SotMI 1 / Druid +X
Travel Devotion at 7th, Swift Hunter at 6th

[eggynack]

- Halfling, subtype to be discussed
Best option in this area is the strongheart halfling from the forgotten realms campaign setting. They get a bonus feat, and feats are good on druids, as they are for everything else in existence.

- First Druid level will be the racial substitution level for Halflings from RotW (is the combination with the swift hunter variant possible?)
Sure. As long as you don't trade anything away twice, and this combination doesn't, you can use both things. That particular sub level isn't exactly my favorite, as spontaneous summoning is massively better than the swapped list, but it's not the absolute worst.


- Animal companion must be something I can ride and don't need to leave outside once I enter a city (nothing too weird)
Riding dogs are always a solid option.

- Probably will use a sling as missile weapon
If you have dragon magazine access, then issue 331 contains the environmental weapon lists ACF, of whom the grasslands environment offers shortbow proficiency. Solid deal if that's up your alley.


Any suggestions are welcome, including multiclassing with the scout class, feat selection, and ways to expand general usefulness outside combat (healing comes to mind, as we're always short on healers).
I'm inclined to think that you'd be best off just going straight druid. You don't get all that much by going scout, in the grand scheme of things, and if you seek out of combat capabilities, druids are excellent at it. I'm also inclined to think that you'd be better off skipping swift hunter, because wild shape is amazing, and the stuff that ACF offers isn't amazing, but taking it won't destroy a druid.

[ZupaK]

Swift Hunter only stacks Ranger and Scout levels. The feat makes no mention of Druid. Although it has favored enemy as a prerequisite, the actual benefit of the feat is this:

Sorry to disappoint. Ask your DM if you can stack scout and deadly hunter via houserule, but by RAW you can't.

Right, so the viable option is to go for a mounted Halfling Ranger/Scout then?
Is there any way to create a decent skirmishing druid? What other options are possible?

I need to let you know that I have trouble understanding abbreviations/acronyms, since last time I roleplayed it was still only AD&D 2nd.

[eggynack]

Right, so the viable option is to go for a mounted Halfling Ranger/Scout then?
Is there any way to create a decent skirmishing druid? What other options are possible?
You don't really have to do that much. Be a druid, have a ranged weapon, and hit folk with it. Maybe ride around on an animal companion if you like. Maybe also pick up zen archery from complete warrior to narrow your required ability scores some, and maybe also also use a non-humanoid race (anthropomorphic bat from savage species is likely the best option), take fangshields druid substitution levels from champions of valor, and manifest hands in a wild shape so that you can be an animal while using a ranged weapon. Of course, druids also have a good variety of ranged damage spells to rely on, so that could partially do the job.


I need to let you know that I have trouble understanding abbreviations/acronyms, since last time I roleplayed it was still only AD&D 2nd.
RAW stands for rules as written, and denotes direct use of the game rules without any outside agency. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?18512-Common-Acronyms-Abbreviations-and-Terms) a list of abbreviations and acronyms.

[ZupaK]

Be an elf, dip Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine p61), grab the travel domain and swap it for Travel devotion.
This will save you needing the Cleric dip - good though that is.

Elf
Scout 1 / Druid 3 / Scout +1 / SotMI 1 / Druid +1 / Scout +1 / Druid +X
Travel Devotion at 6th, Swift Hunter at 9th
or
Scout 1 / Druid 3 / Scout +2 / SotMI 1 / Druid +X
Travel Devotion at 7th, Swift Hunter at 6th

Altough it looks interesting, it forfeits the option of playing one of the small folk, which is what I'm after. Thanks for your thoughts.

[ZupaK]

You don't really have to do that much. Be a druid, have a ranged weapon, and hit folk with it. Maybe ride around on an animal companion if you like. Maybe also pick up zen archery from complete warrior to narrow your required ability scores some, and maybe also also use a non-humanoid race (anthropomorphic bat from savage species is likely the best option), take fangshields druid substitution levels from champions of valor, and manifest hands in a wild shape so that you can be an animal while using a ranged weapon. Of course, druids also have a good variety of ranged damage spells to rely on, so that could partially do the job.


RAW stands for rules as written, and denotes direct use of the game rules without any outside agency. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?18512-Common-Acronyms-Abbreviations-and-Terms) a list of abbreviations and acronyms.

Thanks. So suppose I become a Halfling Druid (with the substitution level and variant class) what kind of AC and damage output am I looking at as opposed to the scout build from the original poster?

[nedz]

Altough it looks interesting, it forfeits the option of playing one of the small folk, which is what I'm after. Thanks for your thoughts.

My suggestion was for the OP. He's playing under a house-rule which allows his Druid levels and Scout levels to stack for the purpose of Swift hunter — this isn't a normal rule. Unless you can persuade your DM to make a similar house-rule, and it's likely that they won't, you need a different build entirely.

You might want to look at this one.

Halfling Wilderness Rogue 1 / Halfling Deadly Hunter Druid 5 / Spellwarp Sniper 5
PBS [1], Track {2}, Extend Spell [3], PS [6], Split Ray [9], Deadeye Shot {9}, Dimensional Jaunt[12]

ACFs
Wilderness Rogue (UA, p 56): Modified skill list.
Halfling Rogue Substitution Levels (RW, p 160)
1st level: Ranged Sneak Attack +1d6 Ranged sneak, -1d6 Melee sneak
Deadly Hunter (UA, p 58): Gain bonus to AC when unarmored and fast movement (as monk). Gain favored enemy, track, and swift tracker as a ranger. Lose armor and shield proficiency and wild shape.
Halfling Druid Substitution Levels (RW, p 157) add climb, jump, move silently, and hide to skill list (6 skills points per level)
1st level: Spontaneous Casting, Enhanced Link (bonus to ride animal companion)
1st – Jump, 2nd – Spider Climb, 3rd – Protection from Energy, 4th – Freedom of Movement, 5th – Tree Stride
6th – 9th – Summon Nature’s Ally
Elemental Companion (CM, p 33) Know (the Planes) 1, speak Auran. No AC, no Wild Empathy.

Basically you're companion is an Air elemental, which you should be light enough to ride around on, at least after 5th.
You start by using a sling, but later warp spells into rays and use those instead.

[Troacctid]

If your DM lets you go for it, a Druid-based Swift Hunter build is going to be more powerful than a Ranger-based one. You're only giving up a couple points of BAB, a bonus feat, and some skill points in exchange for vastly improved spellcasting and a much stronger animal companion. That's a very good trade.

[nedz]

If your DM lets you go for it, a Druid-based Swift Hunter build is going to be more powerful than a Ranger-based one. You're only giving up a couple points of BAB, a bonus feat, and some skill points in exchange for vastly improved spellcasting and a much stronger animal companion. That's a very good trade.

I believe he traded away the pet when he went Avenger but the spells are the big thing anyway.

[Troacctid]

You should not go Druidic Avenger. Rage is not useful for an archer.

[Darrin]

You should not go Druidic Avenger. Rage is not useful for an archer.

It is if you can swap it for Whirling Frenzy.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
You should not go Druidic Avenger. Rage is not useful for an archer.

The OP specified he was taking the swift-and-deadly-hunter variant (UA, p. 58) and made no mention of Druidic Avenger.

No one mentioned Avenger until nedz' post in the second page of the thread. Not sure where he got that from.

[somehownotsingl]

I'm glad this post resurrected. I got some more good insights out of it. Thanks, everyone!

[ZupaK]

My suggestion was for the OP. He's playing under a house-rule which allows his Druid levels and Scout levels to stack for the purpose of Swift hunter — this isn't a normal rule. Unless you can persuade your DM to make a similar house-rule, and it's likely that they won't, you need a different build entirely.

You might want to look at this one.

Halfling Wilderness Rogue 1 / Halfling Deadly Hunter Druid 5 / Spellwarp Sniper 5
PBS [1], Track {2}, Extend Spell [3], PS [6], Split Ray [9], Deadeye Shot {9}, Dimensional Jaunt[12]

ACFs
Wilderness Rogue (UA, p 56): Modified skill list.
Halfling Rogue Substitution Levels (RW, p 160)
1st level: Ranged Sneak Attack +1d6 Ranged sneak, -1d6 Melee sneak
Deadly Hunter (UA, p 58): Gain bonus to AC when unarmored and fast movement (as monk). Gain favored enemy, track, and swift tracker as a ranger. Lose armor and shield proficiency and wild shape.
Halfling Druid Substitution Levels (RW, p 157) add climb, jump, move silently, and hide to skill list (6 skills points per level)
1st level: Spontaneous Casting, Enhanced Link (bonus to ride animal companion)
1st – Jump, 2nd – Spider Climb, 3rd – Protection from Energy, 4th – Freedom of Movement, 5th – Tree Stride
6th – 9th – Summon Nature’s Ally
Elemental Companion (CM, p 33) Know (the Planes) 1, speak Auran. No AC, no Wild Empathy.

Basically you're companion is an Air elemental, which you should be light enough to ride around on, at least after 5th.
You start by using a sling, but later warp spells into rays and use those instead.

Wow, this looks really interesting. Could you perhaps explain why the rogue level is included? Also, I need to further look up all the feats, because most don't mean anything to me yet. But I really do like the idea of a build that rides around and shoots slings and spells, that doesn't suck. It has to be kept "normal" though, as we generally only play things that would fit the Tolkien setting, and bats riding air elementals will definitely be frowned upon.

[nedz]

The OP specified he was taking the swift-and-deadly-hunter variant (UA, p. 58) and made no mention of Druidic Avenger.

No one mentioned Avenger until nedz' post in the second page of the thread. Not sure where he got that from.

Ooop, my BAD. I meant swift and deadly.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by nedz
Ooop, my BAD. I meant swift and deadly.

No worries. When I first read your comment I thought it was a Hawkeye reference. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by nedz
You might want to look at this one.

Halfling Wilderness Rogue 1 / Halfling Deadly Hunter Druid 5 / Spellwarp Sniper 5

This is a really cool little build, actually. I might have to steal this for my own campaign.


Originally Posted by ZupaK
Wow, this looks really interesting. Could you perhaps explain why the rogue level is included?

The wilderness rogue allows for the halfling rogue substitution at first level, which is on p. 160 of Races of the Wild. This delays melee sneak attack damage in exchange for bonus damage on ranged sneak attacks.

Ranged SNAs, in turn, stack with Sudden Raystrike, a second-level class feature of the Spellwarp Sniper PrC, on p. 64 of Complete Scoundrel.

There are probably more subtleties involved beyond this, which I'll let nedz explain.

.

[nedz]

Wow, this looks really interesting. Could you perhaps explain why the rogue level is included?
Pre req for Spellwarp sniper.
Also skills and +2d6 sneak when using ranged attacks.
It starts off as a spell using slinger but then turns into slinging warped spells around - kind of a ray-druid.
It's also quite stealthy


This is a really cool little build, actually. I might have to steal this for my own campaign.

The wilderness rogue allows for the halfling rogue substitution at first level, which is on p. 160 of Races of the Wild. This delays melee sneak attack damage in exchange for bonus damage on ranged sneak attacks.

Ranged SNAs, in turn, stack with Sudden Raystrike, a second-level class feature of the Spellwarp Sniper PrC, on p. 64 of Complete Scoundrel.

There are probably more subtleties involved beyond this, which I'll let nedz explain.

.
You can do stun-locking or more damage.
Sandblast (Druid 1 - SpC) goes from being meh to stun-no save
otherwise there is a shortage of warpable Druid spells, but there are enough.

You prepare various AoEs and then can choose to use them as written or turn them into a ranged touch attack on an individual for more damage (sneak) with no save.

3rd Thunderous Roar(sonic)
4th Flame Strike(fire), Arc of Lightning(lightning), Boreal Wind(cold)

You take split ray at 9th, and can swap out the 2nd Precise Shot from SS for Deadeye Shot at 9th also.

Ed: more
You could choose any kind of elemental, but Air gives you a useful tool (kind of the ultimate Mage Hand) from 2nd and it may even be able to carry you. At 5th it becomes medium size and can definitely fly a hobbit around with a perfect fly speed of 100'. You probably need to speak Auran to use this properly.

Halfling Druid Substitution Levels give you tree stride spontaneously, which enables Dimensional jaunt.

[ZupaK]

You could choose any kind of elemental, but Air gives you a useful tool (kind of the ultimate Mage Hand) from 2nd and it may even be able to carry you. At 5th it becomes medium size and can definitely fly a hobbit around with a perfect fly speed of 100'. You probably need to speak Auran to use this properly.

What about the Halfling bonus to ride animal companion? Does that work on an elemental companion?

[nedz]

What about the Halfling bonus to ride animal companion? Does that work on an elemental companion?

No - but you can't have everything. It shouldn't be relevant anyway.

[ZupaK]

No - but you can't have everything. It shouldn't be relevant anyway.

So, this is definitely going to be my build. One question in general remains though. When I take a level in Spellwarp slinger, it counts as though I advanced a level as Druid, with regard to spell progression. But what would happen when I would take another levels Druid at a later stage? Would I have skipped levels and forfeited the special abilities gained? Can I even take alternating levelling Druid and Spellwarp slinger?

[Urpriest]

So, this is definitely going to be my build. One question in general remains though. When I take a level in Spellwarp slinger, it counts as though I advanced a level as Druid, with regard to spell progression. But what would happen when I would take another levels Druid at a later stage? Would I have skipped levels and forfeited the special abilities gained? Can I even take alternating levelling Druid and Spellwarp slinger?

Since the level of Druid also treats you as if you had advanced a level of Druid with regard to spell progression, there's nothing to be confused about here. You just add together Druid and Spellwarp Sniper levels, and consult the table. You don't skip special abilities, because you're still taking the same Druid levels you would ordinarily, you don't get to skip levels.

[nedz]

Well you would need to pick up Speak Auran at level 1, if you are going for the Elemental companion.
You also need 1 rank in Know (the Planes).
IIRC Both of these are cross class.

You cannot take spellwarp sniper before level 7 because you won't meet the prerequisites. You could interleave Druid and SS levels thereafter.

If you went Rogue 1 / Druid 5 / SS 5 / Druid +1, say, then you would have 11 levels of Druid casting and gain the class features of Druid 6.
This would normally be Wild shape (2/day) but Deadly Hunter changes that to an increase in unarmoured speed of 10' (via Monk 6)

You would gain Swift Tracker at Rogue 1 / Druid 5 / SS 5 / Druid +3 and a 3rd Favoured enemy at Rogue 1 / Druid 5 / SS 5 / Druid +5

[eggynack]

Well you would need to pick up Speak Auran at level 1, if you are going for the Elemental companion.
You also need 1 rank in Know (the Planes).
IIRC Both of these are cross class.

True, though it's possible to make them less so. Voice of the city (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) offers speak language as a class skill, along with some other things, in exchange for wild empathy, and planar druid substitution levels (PlH, 31) adds knowledge (the planes) at the relevant levels, which in this case are four, nine, and thirteen. The latter's probably too late to matter, but the former seems like it could help.

[nedz]

True, though it's possible to make them less so. Voice of the city (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) offers speak language as a class skill, along with some other things, in exchange for wild empathy, and planar druid substitution levels (PlH, 31) adds knowledge (the planes) at the relevant levels, which in this case are four, nine, and thirteen. The latter's probably too late to matter, but the former seems like it could help.

Doesn't really help since the first level of the build is Rogue — and it would only save you 2 skill points.