Need help bringing a concept to life; Medicine Man/Kahuna

[SouthpawSoldier]

So, an issue I've had with D&D is how Clerics are always dedicated to ONE deity, even within polytheistic cultures. Druids are shapeshifting manipulators of nature, and can serve as auxiliary healers. But what I desire to play is a version of the Hawai'ian kahuna; nature-themed divine healers and religious leaders. Shape shifting and dedication to one deity don't really fit the concept. They're ritualists, herbalists, and teachers, who interact with their entire pantheon. The default options don't really have a niche for the concept.

5E is generally more mutable than 3.5, but I'm still having difficulty. In 3.5, the method I approached was a hybrid class that changed domains similar to the spellscale race feature of meditations; per day (either WIS or CHA mod) switching of domains; no spells gained that way, but granted different features related to the deity and different aspects of Polynesian culture.

What I have in mind is a Cleric or Druid variant. Fluff-wise, Warlock could possibly work, but it would require more complex home brew.

*Nature-themed Divine, but calls on different deities for different needs; Pele to destroy something, Kane to heal, etc.; basically able to alter domains or spells prepared throughout the day. Prayers during a short rest seems a good method, with per day limitations to avoid abuse.

*No Wildshape or Armor; Turning Undead should be kept, but as an option for the aforementioned short rest prayers. Maybe the Monk's WIS to AC feature or Barbarian CON to AC; latter is MAD< but fits culture/fluff.

*A method of crafting healing, poisons, and anti-toxins; a derivative of the Healer feat, more feasible Potion crafting, and/or the Spell-less Ranger's Poultice as a class feature, or a blend of the three. Maybe include aspects of this discussion on herbalism/alchemy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409450-Herbalist-Feat-homebrew&p=19114816#post19114816); or this supplement. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7CIGCMCtoETbEhVTy0zSnFJNEE/view)



Method
HP
Frequency
Cost


Potions
2d4+2 [7]
Action to drink/apply; inventory
50g in shop; Craft 25g+8hr labor


Healer's Kit w/feat
1d6+4+Target's HD [7.5+HD]
Once per Target per Rest
5g/10 use kit


Poultice
1d6/2 Preparer Level (round up)*
WIS mod/day; takes one minute to apply, 1hr/day to resupply
Foraging/ DM discretion


*Starts at 3rd; avg 14hp, +7HP every odd level. At 9th level, removes one poison condition in addition to healing.


*Limited spell list, mostly [Ritual]. Maybe picking a number of spells from other classes (like Bards and Warlocks do), and only able to cast them as Rituals.

Role in combat would be buffing/healing, with enhanced versions of both out of combat. Some utility (mostly Divination related). Not a blaster caster, though a few spells could fit. Lots of nature related abilities and Proficiencies, like finding/purifying food, animal handling, navigation, etc.

[MrStabby]

I like the sound of this concept. One thing that I think it needs is a bit more by way of themes so it can maintain its power. As it is, if you simply go for "healer" you are very much stepping on the toes of the life cleric. It doesn't sound like you are going to be packing many offensive spells or much combat ability so keeping your healing balanced might be difficult. Ritualists and herbalist are great aspects to have to a character but you may want some more combat crunch.

I will throw a few ideas out there - some very much echoing yours. I would be happy to try and pull the ones you like together into a class.

Firstly I think it is worth laying out the archetypes you want for your class. It also sounds like you done want the god or the domain to be part of the archetype as the ability to switch is a key component of the class. I would suggest that the archetype maybe provides a string of abilities for casting spells (rather than extra spell options). Maybe one casts more powerfully (able to cast at higher spell levels more easily), maybe one of them casts longer(getting more spell slots or better recovery), maybe one of them casts faster (using bonus actions instead of actions to cast). A weak/narrow set of spells but with powerful class abilities to augment them would have certain aspects of the Sorcerer class to them.

You will want your spell list. I am not familiar with the traditions you are talking about so may need some more help but playing by your themes so far there should be some options.

Guidance, Divination spells, communication spells all can help fill the role of "teacher". These are generally non combat spells.

Healing spells and abjuration spells are straightforward for the healing/protecting role. These can be used in combat but often are not.

Destruction spells. These are probably going to need a bit of a theme to work with - simply picking every damage spell would be a very broad list. How does the god destroy? Necromancy? Fire? Physical force?

I like the idea of being able to take only one of these aspects at once and switching between aspects being an important tactical mechanic for the class. I would argue that we will need some new spells if this is to work though, as I believe that each aspect should have spells useful both in and out of combat.

I would suggest not using the pact magic progression simply because this would be a class that would have few at will resources that could regularly be used. No super-damage cantrip or great attacks. The low number of spells available in the absence of other abilities would be a bit crippling.

So a few ability ideas

1) Change aspect. Takes an action. Changes your available spell list. If I get what you are saying this would be a core mechanical thing.

2) Improved healing. Any spell that heals that takes an action you can use a bonus action to cast instead

3) Numinous Guidance. Once per short rest (possibly going up with levels, or if there is a class resource system you might use this to expend) whenever a spell or ability targets you or a friendly creature you can use your reaction to cast a spell targeting that creature.

4) Servant of many masters. Allows two concentration spells simultaniously. At very high levels allows a third. This would be a very powerful ability but might be a way of helping to bring the healing/teaching aspects of the character out in combat a bit more.

4) A cantrip that heals people up to half hit-points (small, but can possibly scale well)

5) A cantrip that poisons someone's weapon (poison is pretty good for scaling - would suggest a once only effect so it wouldn't use concentration as there may be a lot of concentration based spells needed).

6) A higher level spell that works like call lightning - an initial effect + can use bonus action to invoke other effects for the duration. A healing wave with targeted restorations or healing effects would be situational but very useful indeed. Possibly even more important if you want to get a feel of separation from the cleric or druid by not having the same high level spells but don't want your quite dedicated healer to fall behind.

7) Knowledge/teacher role gets access to ritual casting.



Personally I would look to having a class resource like Ki or Sorcery points or battle-master manoeuvre dice. You could expend these for things like turn undead, recovering spell slots, enhanced effects etc. Possibly you would use a small amount to switch aspect? If these recovered on a short rest and could be used to buy spell slots you would have a half long rest and half short rest caster - and the main spellcasting classes generally have a way of recovering slots.

Would you give the character access to all gods or would they be polytheistic but for a partial range? Five gods available and they pick three? Are there any other gods under this system you would want to incorporate?



Sorry if this has come across as a bit disjointed. I am also aware that this is a long way off giving you the finished product you want but if you would be happy to accept my input I would be very happy to offer whatever help I can with this.

[SouthpawSoldier]

The idea was a few times a day, could make an offering or prayer to a different deity; abilities were somewhat related to Domains (Pele would be written with Fire, Destruction, and Chaos as Domains). Healing was to be a focus, but really, the core mechanic revolves around a character that's truly polytheistic. Hawaiians had dozens of deities and variants. I also incorporated a little from other Polynesian cultures; haka are a Maori thing, but modern Hawaii is really a melting pot of Asian an Pacific cultures.

I also wanted to incorporate kapu; taboos that were an inherent part of Hawaiian culture. Then there's the 'aumakua; an ancestor that comes back in animal form to provide guidance (think Eddie Murphy's dragon character from Mulan).

The difficulty is the nuances to worship and culture, and transcribing enough to maintain variety, but not so much to overcomplicate things. I like the idea of using a version of Ki/sorcery points or superiority dice as a consumable resource to select deities, refreshed after resting.

As far as offensive abilities; at most, I would say something volcanic in nature, or something weather themed. Shamanistic magic wasn't really flashy in nature. Kahuna were generally only involved so far as blessing the field of battle and the troops.

Here's a rough list I had done up when working the 3.5 version. This was only for a few deities; I stuck with the ones most relevant to play, and never really finished the list. The various crafting aspects were left out (for example, War was only one aspect of Ku's nature)*.

Calling upon deities may be used WIS/Day, as a full-round action. Encounter duration, unless otherwise specified.
+Kane : Combine CHA and WIS for Heal Checks; may Lay on Hands as Paladin of equal level. Lasts 1hr/level

+Kanaloa : Treat Caster Level of spells as one higher (Encounter). Combine WIS and CHA for Survival checks for navigation at sea or to find safe drinking water for WIS+CHA hours. Gain Aquan as bonus language (spoken only) for WIS+CHA hours.

+Ku: Add WIS to Appraise checks for CHA minutes. Perform (haka) for one round to use one of the following:
*Inspire Courage as Bard of 1/2 Level (minimum 1)
*Enemies with INT of 3 or greater within sight and hearing must make WILL save (Fear Effect) or become Shaken for CHA rounds. DC=10+CHA+ECL.
*Add WIS to AC as if Monk. Gain bonus feats as Fighter of equal level. Must meet all prerequisites for these feats (Encounter).
*Rage as Barbarian of 1/2 level (minimum 1).
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, may combine 2, 3, and all options, respectively.

+Pele: Gain Smite (any) as Paladin of equal level; additional CHA damage has (Fire) type. Treat [Fire], [Destruction], and [Chaos] spells as +1 CL [Encounter].

+Milu: May Turn Undead as Cleric of 1/2 level. Gain Speak with Undead as (su) for WIS+CHA minutes.

*Kūmauna—Kū of the mountain, a rain god of Kaʻū, Hawaiʻi

Kūkaʻōʻō—Kū of the digging stick, god of farming

Kūkeolowalu—Kū of wet land farming

Kūʻulakai—Kū of the abundant sea, god of fishing

Kūmokuhāliʻi—Kū, god of canoe builders

Kūnuiākea—Kū, god of government

Kūkāʻilimoku—Kū, snatcher of islands, a feathered war god

Kūwahailo—Kū, god of sorcery

[eleazzaar]

So, an issue I've had with D&D is how Clerics are always dedicated to ONE deity, even within polytheistic cultures.

That's fluff, and thus easily mutable.
Playing a polytheistic cleric wouldn't require any new mechanics. In fact you could say spell X comes from detiy A, Spell Y comes from B-- and so on. If you want to cast burning hands, you pray to the fire god in the morning. It's all how you describe it.



Nature-themed Divine, but calls on different deities for different needs; Pele to destroy something, Kane to heal, etc.; basically able to alter domains or spells prepared throughout the day. Prayers during a short rest seems a good method, with per day limitations to avoid abuse.

That sounds rather powerful. The different domains are specialized for different things. Being able to switch to a different specialist character a few times a day is a major increse in versatility and thus power -- even if you don't get all the domain powers (or their aproximate equivalents). There's a reason that classes with daily access to their entire spell list (Clerics, Druids) don't get to switch their spell choices around much except once per day.

Not saying it couldn't work, but you would need to give up something significant in excange for the versatility.

[MrStabby]

That's fluff, and thus easily mutable.
Playing a polytheistic cleric wouldn't require any new mechanics. In fact you could say spell X comes from detiy A, Spell Y comes from B-- and so on. If you want to cast burning hands, you pray to the fire god in the morning. It's all how you describe it.




That sounds rather powerful. The different domains are specialized for different things. Being able to switch to a different specialist character a few times a day is a major increse in versatility and thus power -- even if you don't get all the domain powers (or their aproximate equivalents). There's a reason that classes with daily access to their entire spell list (Clerics, Druids) don't get to switch their spell choices around much except once per day.

Not saying it couldn't work, but you would need to give up something significant in excange for the versatility.

For me I was thinking it would look like the class was very underpowered without some significant boosts. Whilst it might easily get three "domain" type areas it would lose a huge amount of the generic cleric spells. Things like spiritual weapon would be missed quite badly. In addition there would be a cost to switching between specialisms so that would further narrow your abilities down.


The specification that the class shouldn't have the flashy spells is also quite restrictive. Spells that do damage or have big visible effects tend to be the good spells. Of those that are left the good ones tend to be the ones that need concentration.

So I am keen to try and make this work but the way I see it the class is looking something like:

against:
Low hit die
Narrow spell selection
No significant weapon or armour proficiency or fighting style
Requirement that spells not be too flashy

For:
Full spell progression
Some kind of bonus to healing sometimes?
Some kind of bonus to divination sometimes?
Maybe some kind of bonus to other spells?

Now given the downsides and the limit on spells I see this as requiring some hefty bonuses through other abilities (although less on the damage dealing path as it certainly should not be comparable with the sorcerer).

[SouthpawSoldier]

For me I was thinking it would look like the class was very underpowered without some significant boosts. Whilst it might easily get three "domain" type areas it would lose a huge amount of the generic cleric spells. Things like spiritual weapon would be missed quite badly. In addition there would be a cost to switching between specialisms so that would further narrow your abilities down.



Now given the downsides and the limit on spells I see this as requiring some hefty bonuses through other abilities (although less on the damage dealing path as it certainly should not be comparable with the sorcerer).

How much of an effect would the 3.5 Deity effects I shared have on your opinion? how hard would they be to transcribe over to 5e and maintain balance? Not an all inclusive list; planned and expected to add more of the pantheon.

[Wartex1]

Actually, how about instead of spells, you get special rituals? You can cast the ritual spells, and you can "prepare" a ritual ahead of time, storing the effects of a ritual for later use, gaining more ritual storage as you level up. More powerful rituals require more slots to store.

[eleazzaar]

For me I was thinking it would look like the class was very underpowered without some significant boosts. Whilst it might easily get three "domain" type areas it would lose a huge amount of the generic cleric spells. Things like spiritual weapon would be missed quite badly. In addition there would be a cost to switching between specialisms so that would further narrow your abilities down.

I didn't get the impression that this could only use domain spells. If that's the case, it is beyond my competence to judge the ballance.

[SouthpawSoldier]

I didn't get the impression that this could only use domain spells. If that's the case, it is beyond my competence to judge the ballance.

What I had in mind was an independent, abbreviated spell list, and the option of selecting from Domain abilities, but not getting the whole suite of an active Domain. Adding [Ritual] to a few spells, or Concentration, to allow their use in very specific manners or situations.


Example: my 3.5 version; prayer to Pele (Goddess of Volcanoes; associated with Fire, Destruction and Chaos Domains) doesn't grant all the domains, or the features of all of those domains. Instead, it grants a bump to associated spells, and Smite (also types Smite damage, so it's possible resistance could come into play). No additional Domain spells, etc. Still pretty potent, but not game breaking.

The way I see it, there's three options;

Getting one of a Domain's features, for a set duration;

Getting access to Domain spells, for a set duration;

A homebrewed feature that matches thematically. Random, off the cuff example (AFB); Life Domain feature would be Advantage on the Channel Divinity feature; instead of 1d8+2+target's HD, roll 2d8 and choose the higher.

[MrStabby]

How much of an effect would the 3.5 Deity effects I shared have on your opinion? how hard would they be to transcribe over to 5e and maintain balance? Not an all inclusive list; planned and expected to add more of the pantheon.

The 3.5 deity list was reassuring. I think that in practice we will not be able to create all of them but the fact that there is a broad range means that we can select a small number to create themed spell lists and abilities for. I was thinking before that three or maybe four would be a good number to begin with and you have picked out some good ones. There are a couple of other themes that I think are missing though.

Choosing the three might be difficult but some options may be:
Kane - gives healing and restoration spells, purify food and anti-toxin and disease abilities

Kanaloa - I am not quite getting ta strong theme from this, at least not strong enough to take as a whole spell progression

Ku - as you have it this seems to be a kind of warrior god type worship. I would suggest that we take warrior focus and make it an archetype within the class?

Pele - destruction god. This would be the source of all damage dealing spells in the class. The spells as a selection would probably be relatively weak as damage is not a focus of the class.

Milu - seems to be a god of the dead? This would work well as a necromancy aspect but the necromancy spells often do damage so that would conflict with Pele's role. I am sure that this can work though if we add a couple of bespoke class spells.

A divination/teacher/guidance god - there are a lot of solid divination spells and they perfectly fit the theme of not being flashy but giving awesome support.

I think there is also a protection god missing. This would give access to counterspell, dispell magic, shielding or toughening spells and their like.

Likewise I saw Kūkaʻōʻō in your list and thought this could go is as a kind of got of weather/farming/plants type thing. It would have spells like plant growth/spike growth, control weather, fog etc..




How do you feel about removing the warrior aspect? I say this as I am not sure it would implement well with the others- I think that given the rest of the class and what is added you would never be a good fighter and it would take away from what you get in the other aspects.

I would suggest that otherwise the list above is the list of gods you can chose from. For balance/interesting play I would suggest that at level 1 the player picks three of these to worship/have access to. This means that the class has to pick a narrow range of things it can do, but the rest of the class features should help it fulfil that role very well. The choice of gods would then mean that there would be lots of different combinations and two different Medicine Men could play very differently.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Here's a write up of Kanaloa that may explain his nature better: http://www.kumukahi.org/units/ke_ao_akua/akua/kanaloa (hovering over "Ke Ao Akua" from the home page http://www.kumukahi.org/ will show a list of prominent deities (Akua; the "Mana" selection lists important aspects of Hawai'ian spirituality).

He's included mainly because he's one of the four principal deities; Kane, Ku, Kanaloa, and Lono. There is a LOT of overlap though; Lono is THE agriculture god, but Ku has agricultural roles as well. Lots of situational overlap and nuance. Hawai'ian culture is one of subtlety, in a lot of ways; slight differences inperceptible to an outsider.

I like the idea of progressive access; maybe a fledgling kahuna doesn't merit the more powerful deities' attention yet. Start with some of the lower ranks, and gradually gain renown. issue with that is the lower ranked deities are more obscure, meaning more research.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Just had a thought, while discussing and reading on healing methods.

There are three methods of healing, aside from the HD gain during rests and healing spells; potions, Healer's Kits, and Poultices. Why not make these the main method of healing for the class? These are fitting for the concept, since there's no [Ritual] healing. Save the in-combat spells for buffs; works for crunch too, since healing is bad action economy.

Maybe write in some alterations;

Allowing application of Life Domain effects to these healing methods;
Allowing potions and healer's kit use to scale, as long as they remain behind the poultices;
Using foraging to replenish the Healer's Kit and to find potion ingredients, as well as poultice ingredients.

[MrStabby]

Just had a thought, while discussing and reading on healing methods.

There are three methods of healing, aside from the HD gain during rests and healing spells; potions, Healer's Kits, and Poultices. Why not make these the main method of healing for the class? These are fitting for the concept, since there's no [Ritual] healing. Save the in-combat spells for buffs; works for crunch too, since healing is bad action economy.

Maybe write in some alterations;

Allowing application of Life Domain effects to these healing methods;
Allowing potions and healer's kit use to scale, as long as they remain behind the poultices;
Using foraging to replenish the Healer's Kit and to find potion ingredients, as well as poultice ingredients.

Well I am most of my way through the first attempt at this. I think it may have wandered away a little from your current vision - I can either post it here, if you like, or in a new thread if you think it more appropriate.

Regarding using healing kits etc. I think that this is a useful secondary ability but you may need a broader theme than this to make a playably powerful character. You could broaden it to general alchemy or similar but you will probably be wanting quite a bit more.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Well I am most of my way through the first attempt at this. I think it may have wandered away a little from your current vision - I can either post it here, if you like, or in a new thread if you think it more appropriate.

Regarding using healing kits etc. I think that this is a useful secondary ability but you may need a broader theme than this to make a playably powerful character. You could broaden it to general alchemy or similar but you will probably be wanting quite a bit more.

Go ahead and throw it up here; use this as a page to review and adjust drafts, as needed. Once my concept and your writing match well enough, it can go into it's own PEACH thread. Honestly isn't set in stone; fully expect to do some compromising of my concept. Not trying to roll an entire religion and culture into one class (impossible); just trying to create a class that's a better expression of said culture.

With luck, we can whip up something that not only matches my Polynesian theme, but also can be fluffed into a Voodoo themed houngan or bokor.

Something I hadn't thought of until now; subclasses. Have you had any ideas? The only thing I can think of is division based on the cultural roles, leaving the healing as a base class feature across all subclasses. Maybe one teaching subclass that gets knowledge/lore related features; one that's more combat related that gets better/more buffing spells/features; maybe a more nature themed one that gets an 'aumakua (shapeshifting ancestor spirit that can appear as a variety of animals) and eventually Wildshape features. Trick is avoiding stepping on the toes of other classes too much.

[Wartex1]

The main chassis could just be the general medicine man theme, while each subclass would be a different culture.

One could be a Kahuna, another could be a Bokor, and maybe an Onmyoji for the last one.

[MrStabby]

At level 1 you chose three gods to worship each of them provides spells that represent an aspect of your character. At any one time you may only cast spells from the list associated with that aspect. After completing a short or long rest you may chose a new aspect from within the three you selected when taking this class. You know every spell in the list of each of your aspects when you reach that level but you can only cast spells from the list of the aspect you are currently representing.

The aspects are:
Healing
Protection
Destruction
Learning
Death

Empowered healing whenever you cast a spell that recovers hit points or cause another creature through other means to recover hitpoints you may chose to re-roll any number of dice used to determine the number of hitpoints recovered. You must use the new number even if it is lower.

At level two you chose an archetype that reflects a casting style.

At level two you gain two spirit points that you may use to power additional abilities. You gain an additional spirit point each level. You recover your spirit points after a short rest.

At level two you may expend two spirit points and use your action to change your aspect

At level three you gain proficiency in medicine and survival if you do not have it. If you do have it you learn one additional skill of your choice. Whenever you make a medicine check you may add double your proficiency to the result instead of your proficiency.

Lvl 4 ASI

At level 5 whenever you cast a spell you may use your bonus action and expend two spirit points to recover a used spell slot of a level lower than the spell you cast. At level 14 the cost falls to one spirit point for spells slots of level 3 or below. None of the spell slots recovered in this way can be for spells of level six or higher.

At level 6 you can channel divinity as a cleric to turn undead once per long rest. You gain an alternative use depending on your current aspect:
Healing
For one minute you may use your bonus action to heal a creature d8 hitpoints. This rises to 2d8 at level 11 and 3d8 at level 16.

Protection
For one minute friendly creatures gain a +2 bonus to their armour class and saves

Nature
You magically transform the terrain within 60 feet of you to a fog covered marshland. Enemy creatures gain disadvantage on attack rolls and move at half speed.

Destruction
For one minute all of your spells that deal damage do an additional d8 thunder damage

Learning
You gain truesight as per the truesight spell for one minute

Death
For the following minute the first time each friendly creature would be reduced to zero hitpoints it is instead reduced to 1 hitpoint. All friendly creatures gain advantage on saves vs death and saves against spells from the school of necromancy.

You may expend 4 spirit points as an action to recover a use of your channel divinity.

At level 7 ARCHETYPE

At Level 8 ASI

At level 9 -

At Level 10 you chose one. Whenever you roll a die to deal poison damage you add one additional damage to the damage dealt, or whenever you roll a die to determine how much healing you do you add one point to the amount of healing done or you may re-roll all 1s on a d20 that you roll.

At level 11 whenever you cast a spell you may expend two spirit points, if you do you may cast a copy of that spell again as a bonus action in your next turn without expending a spell slot. You must still provide any expended material components for the copied spell. The copied spell may not be of level 6 or higher.

At level 12 ASI

At level 13 Archetype

At level 14 Enhanced Spell recovery

At level 15 whenever a friendly character takes damage you may expend 2 spirit points to use your reaction to cast a spell on that character. This spell must be of third level or lower and restore hitpoints.

At level 16 ASI

At level 17 Archetype

At level 18 Whenever you cast a divination spell of level 2 or higher you may recover a Spirit point.

At level 19 -

At level 20 Whenever a spell you cast heals a creature that creature gains advantage on any attack it makes in the next round of combat.



Archetype - Conduit
This archetype focuses on managing the flow of divine power through themselves more capably - casting more spells, more often.

At level 2 you may cast ritual spells faster. The additional time for casting as a ritual is three turns

At level 7 you may spend two spirit points to cast a spell with a casting time of one action as a bonus action.

At level 13 whenever you use an action to cast a spell of level 4 or greater at a single target you may cast an additional spell of level one or two at that same target by expending a spell slot of the appropriate level. At level 17 you may cast a level three spell this way.


Archetype - Shaman
This archetype concentrates on building a more powerful connection to the natural world. It emphasises poison, plants and small creatures. The spells are known in all aspects.

At level 2 you know the spells Speak with Animals and Entangle and the cantrip Poison Spray.
You may expend one spirit point when you cast a spell, if you do you may count it as being cast from a spell slot one level higher.

At Level 7 You know the spells Grasping Vine and Giant Insect

At level 13 You know the spells insect plague and Regenerate

Spell Lists:
Healing
0 Spare the Dying
1 Cure Wounds, Healing Word
2 Lesser Restoration
3
4 Aura of Life
5 Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds
6 Heal
7
8
9 Power word heal, Mass Heal

Protection
0 Resistance
1 Protection from evil and good, Shield, Shield of Faith
2 Barkskin, Protection from Poison
3 Meld into Stone, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic, Counterspell
4 Stoneskin
5
6
7
8 Antimagic Field
9

Environment
0 Poison spray
1 Goodberry, Purify food and Drink
2 Spike Growth, Protection from animals and Plants
3 Plant Growth, Speak with Plants, Sleet Storm
4
5 Commune with Nature
6 Transport via Plants, Wall of Thorns
7
8 Control Weather
9

Destruction
0 Shocking Grasp
1 Searing Smite, Hellish Rebuke
2 Shatter
3 Blinding Smite
4 Staggering Smite
5
6 Eyebite
7 Firestorm
8
9 Meteor Swarm

Learning
0 Message
1 Detect Magic, Identify, Illusory Script
2 See Invisibility
3 Tongues, Clairvoyance
4 Arcane Eye
5 Scrying
6 True Seeing
7
8 Maze
9 Time Stop, Wish

Death
0 Chill Touch
1 Bane, Hex
2
3 Feign Death, Speak with Dead
4 Death Ward
5 Raise Dead
6 Create Undead
7 Etherealness
8 Trap the Soul
9 Astral Projection, True Resurrection, Power Word Kill

[MrStabby]

This still needs a lot of work and all the fluff written.

The aim is that it lets you fulfill one very narrow role at a time, your spells are great for some things but much weaker for others.

Your spell efficiency is the big feature of this class with the ability to make your spells go much further with spirit points. Getting these on a short rest lets you burn your substandard or situational spells with much greater abandon.

[SouthpawSoldier]

At first glance, I like it. Will take me a bit to parse in detail, but it fits the points needed:

*Nature themed, but focused on how a tribe interacts with nature, not the "Divine Avatarof Nature" feel one gets from Druids.
*Variety of skills, but not Batman;
* General enough to fit a mix of cultures when fluffed properly; could be from any polytheist culture.

The herbalism stuff I posted can still work with this too; potions just require proficiency and caster level 3rd; Healer is a feat open to anyone; and, adding the Poultice feature shouldn't break the game.

Ill go over the spell list and study features in detail later today or tonight, life permitting.

[MrStabby]

OK cool.

I think the spell list is the tricky bit to get right. Being able to do only a very limited range of things at once (and with varying degrees of efficiency) is a needed balance to things like the powerful spell recovery options.

Generally speaking, with a few exceptions, destruction is a weak aspect compared to other damage focussed classes simply through poor spell selections. I imagine many people would take it if only to give them some combat options till the need to heal kicked in.

I believe that there are multiple options at each level so it shouldn't be too hard to have at least one spell of every spell level as you ascend although obviously not in any single given aspect.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Level
Proficiency Bonus
Spirit Points
Features


1
2
-
Spellcasting, Personal Pantheon, Empowered Healing


2
2
2
Archetype, Spirit Points, Change Aspect*


3
2
3
Herbalism+


4
2
4
Ability Score Improvement


5
3
5
Spell Recovery


6
3
6
Channel Divinity


7
3
7
Archetype Feature


8
3
8
Ability Score Improvement


9
4
9
-


10
4
10
Choice Feature*


11
4
11
Copy Spell


12
4
12
Ability Score Improvement


13
5
13
Archetype Feature


14
5
14
Enhanced Spell Recovery


15
5
15
Reactive Healing


16
5
16
Ability Score Improvement


17
6
17
Archetype Feature


18
6
18
Divine Inspiration


19
6
19
-


20
6
20
Advantageous Healing


*Need a name for this

+Herbalism
At third level, you gain Expertise in Medicine, even if you didn't previously have Proficiency. You also gain Proficiency in Survival, and Expertise to use Survival to find medicinal herbs. You also gain Proficiency with the Herbalist’s Kit.

AS far as my earlier post re: herbal medicine; adding herbalist kit proficiency doesn't do much. It's one requirement from a list (caster level 3rd, able to cast spell the potion mimics, crafting cost). Poultices and Healer feat may be an issue. Maybe a weakened hybrid of the two, and rolled into the Shaman archetype.

Also, a question; Aspect spell restriction is only for standard casting, correct? [Ritual] casting still works with any spell on the class list, regardless of Active or Pantheon Aspects selected. That's the way I interpreted it, at least. Otherwise don't see the point of knowing all spells. Make sense, since it's standard for all other casters.

Edit: sticking this here to save it somewhere handy; may lift from this for herbal potions feature.

Infuse Potions
Starting at 2nd level, you can produce magic potions. You spend 10 minutes focusing your magic on a vial
of mundane water and expend a spell slot to transform it into a potion. Once you have expended a spell
slot to create a potion, you cannot regain that slot until the potion is consumed or after 1 week, at which
time the potion loses its effectiveness. You can create up to three potions at a time; creating a fourth
potion causes the oldest currently active one to immediately lose its potency. If that potion has been
consumed, its effects immediately end.
The spell slot you expend determines the type of potion you can create. See chapter 7 of the Dungeon
Master’s Guide for complete rules on potions.
Spell Slot Potion Created
1st Climbing, growth, or healing
2nd Mind reading or greater healing
3rd Invisibility, superior healing, or water breathing
4th Resistance

[MrStabby]

Level
Proficiency Bonus
Spirit Points
Features


1
2
-
Spellcasting, Personal Pantheon, Empowered Healing


2
2
2
Archetype, Spirit Points, Change Aspect*


3
2
3
Herbalism+


4
2
4
Ability Score Improvement


5
3
5
Spell Recovery


6
3
6
Channel Divinity


7
3
7
Archetype Feature


8
3
8
Ability Score Improvement


9
4
9
-


10
4
10
Choice Feature*


11
4
11
Copy Spell


12
4
12
Ability Score Improvement


13
5
13
Archetype Feature


14
5
14
Enhanced Spell Recovery


15
5
15
Reactive Healing


16
5
16
Ability Score Improvement


17
6
17
Archetype Feature


18
6
18
Divine Inspiration


19
6
19
-


20
6
20
Advantageous Healing


*Need a name for this

+Herbalism
At third level, you gain Expertise in Medicine, even if you didn't previously have Proficiency. You also gain Proficiency in Survival, and Expertise to use Survival to find medicinal herbs. You also gain Proficiency with the Herbalist’s Kit.

AS far as my earlier post re: herbal medicine; adding herbalist kit proficiency doesn't do much. It's one requirement from a list (caster level 3rd, able to cast spell the potion mimics, crafting cost). Poultices and Healer feat may be an issue. Maybe a weakened hybrid of the two, and rolled into the Shaman archetype.

Also, a question; Aspect spell restriction is only for standard casting, correct? [Ritual] casting still works with any spell on the class list, regardless of Active or Pantheon Aspects selected. That's the way I interpreted it, at least. Otherwise don't see the point of knowing all spells. Make sense, since it's standard for all other casters.

Edit: sticking this here to save it somewhere handy; may lift from this for herbal potions feature.

Infuse Potions
Starting at 2nd level, you can produce magic potions. You spend 10 minutes focusing your magic on a vial
of mundane water and expend a spell slot to transform it into a potion. Once you have expended a spell
slot to create a potion, you cannot regain that slot until the potion is consumed or after 1 week, at which
time the potion loses its effectiveness. You can create up to three potions at a time; creating a fourth
potion causes the oldest currently active one to immediately lose its potency. If that potion has been
consumed, its effects immediately end.
The spell slot you expend determines the type of potion you can create. See chapter 7 of the Dungeon
Master’s Guide for complete rules on potions.
Spell Slot Potion Created
1st Climbing, growth, or healing
2nd Mind reading or greater healing
3rd Invisibility, superior healing, or water breathing
4th Resistance


Ah! Fantastic. Good work with the table.

I agree that a bit of extra crafting support would be in keeping. I am still trying to gauge power on this. There are a few Major Strengths and a few Major weaknesses so I don't know if this will be strong, weak or just challenging to play.

[SouthpawSoldier]

The frustrating thing is my unending habit of making fun NPCs that are difficult to play. When I bard it up in 3.pf, I invariably make a Rain Man professor or a linguist. Never a Diplomancer; never got the feel of being the face, and my rl group always expected Bards to Face so they could dump CHA. But a Bard, Cloistered Cleric, or other historian/librarian role always fell flat. Great for deus ex answers and such, but not popular with the tactical player.

A potion and poultice crafting, out of combat healer and diviner, can be great role play. Lots of fantastic sources to draw on. But making it useful and balanced for the rest of what goes into TTRPGs is tricky. Especially without stepping on the toes of other classes.

Back to the task at hand; I've been toying with adding/shifting the archetypes. Keep the Conduit concept as is; details may need ironing. Shaman I think of as a quasi-druid, interacting with nature SPIRITS, not manipulating nature. Maybe lift from Voodoo loa, or even the rest of that faith. Maybe getting Find Familiar, to represent a family spirit. *shrug* just brainstorming, since afb and using tablet right now.

Roll the crafting into a new archetype; Medicine Man. Artificer potion crafting, and poisons as well. Poultices and such too. No healing spells, though. Really limit standard casting with that one. Focus on out of combat healing and buffs through potions.

[MrStabby]

Just wondering if you have had a chance to play a game with something like this yet?

[Ragnar Bloodaxe]

I can't give you any advice on game mechanics, but I might be able to help your thinking on the character's concept and background. While I also have little knowledge of traditional Hawaiian culture, I know a little about how some pre-modern societies function, but these points are from different traditions and are not all compatible with each other. Some will not apply to a character with a Hawaiian background or upbringing. Here are some thoughts about these differences that might give you some ideas.

1. Shamanistic societies do not view religion as modern westerners do; these traditions take a radically different approach to life than monotheistic ones, and shamans do not have the same function as priests. Worship is not approached as an entirely intellectual exercise, but as an emotional and physical one as well. Mythos and story telling are used to ingrain local understandings and truths on a deeply instinctive level, much as western fairy tales do. Ceremonial activity and events serve to connect the community with the spiritual and to reaffirm such bonds. In cases where there is a separate spiritual world alongside the everyday, the shaman often serves as the bridge between them.

2. Spiritual life is not separate from the rest of life, but is instead an integral part of it, influencing how everything is done, and how people understand the meaning of everything in their lives. This can lend a ritualistic flavor to both everyday activities as well unusual events, such as emergencies requiring a special ceremony to contain (the virgin jumping into Mona Loa to keep her from erupting).

3. The spirits are usually not thought of as separate from the physical world (though in some cases there is a spiritual realm for the dead that exists alongside the land of the living). A spirit can be a plant or an animal. One story I've read tells of an Asian woman (Thai, if I remember correctly) who would leave out small amounts of cooked rice to "placate the spirits". The writer, a western woman who was her guest, discovered that the spirits her host meant to appease were several ant hills; she would place her offerings of rice to draw the ants away from her home.

4. Gods and spirits are not viewed as all knowing or as differing from humans in character. They have personalities as well as typically human flaws. They can be lied to or tricked. (Greek gods give a well known example, behaving much like one big, dysfunctional family. In the Old Testament of the Christian bible the Hebrew god asks one of his prophets, who has returned from a trip to Egypt, how things were there. A singular omniscient and all powerful god would not need to ask this question.)

5. Gods and spirits are not truly immortal and can be killed or die just as humans do, and often are not the world's creators. Where creator gods do exist they are often seen as too powerful and distant to have any interest in the doings of humans, which concern only the lesser gods or spirits.

6. The gods and spirits who do interact with humans are not their friends. They do not have our best interests in mind, and are in no way the benevolent parent figures many modern folk would wish them to be. It is one of the responsibility of religious experts to placate them to keep the local community from harm. Ancient temples in the Mesopotamian region were built as pretty prisons for the gods, to keep them distracted, happy, and most importantly under control. Unsupervised they could cause all manner of mischief, and it was considered to be a major disaster for them to roam freely. (I read a translation of an ancient tablet from Babylon in college that describes this, but I can't remember its exact phrasing.)

7. Worship and sacrifice are not given freely, but with the expectation of an equal return. Some societies will cease worship of a god or spirit who does not perform up to par. This conception of sacrifice shows that the gods and spirits can be bargained with as equals or near equals, in a business like manner. In most cases anyone can make these bargains; religious professionals are simply subject area experts who are more skillful at such transactions, as they are better versed in the particular individual desires or taste of different spirits or gods. Food or drink, cherished possessions, as well human sacrifice are common. Human sacrifice in this context does not refer to killing a person, but to the gift of perhaps a bit of blood, some hair, or some semen. (I've wondered if the Jewish rite of circumcision may have begun as a type of sacrifice.)

8. Ancient worshipers of one god did not generally deny the existence of other gods, and for the most part did not object to their worship, partly because these gods were mostly seen as regional powers. Even the old Hebrews only objected to the worship of outside gods by members of their own community, and this is clearly stated in the Christian bible where their god is quoted as saying "You are to place no other gods before me." This might also be read as "I am the most important of the gods that you worship", though mileage may vary on this one. (Translations often differ as to exact wording.)

These are a few concepts that I have gleaned in my readings. I hope you find them helpful. I have a few books around somewhere that go into specifics if you need more.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Still need a name for the class. Here's a rough writeup; still needs LOTS of proof reading, let alone getting the archetypes structured right. Goal is no dead levels, so archetype features need to be synchronized and adapted around the universal class features. Then there's coming up with starting equipment, and then it'll be ready for a PEACH thread.

Skills: Choose 3 from Insight, Perception, Medicine, Survival, Performance, Nature, Religion

Armor Light armor, non-metal

Weapons: Simple

Hit Die: D6

Starting Equipment: _____?



Level
Proficiency
Feature
Cantrips Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th



1
2
Spellcasting, Personal Pantheon, Ritualist














Spirit Points, Shifting Devotion












3
2
Archetype












4
2
ASI












5
3
Spell Recovery












6
3
Channel Divinity












7
3
Archetype Feature












8
3
ASI












9
4













10
4
Wild Shape












11
4
Archetype Feature












12
4
ASI












13
5













14
5
Wild Shape Improvement












15
5
Archetype Feature












16
5
ASI












17
6













18
6
Wildshape Improvement












19
6
ASI












20
6














1st Level
Spellcasting
Drawing on your connection to the Spirit World and Nature, you can cast spells to affect the world around you. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability.

Personal Pantheon:
At first level, choose three deities from your religion's pantheon with which you have a strong affinity. Each deity must represent an Aspect (detailed below). You choose one Aspect to remain active per Long Rest.

Ritualist:
You gain knowledge of spells from all Aspects, but only spells from the currently active Aspect use the standard casting time. Spells from your second and third Aspect may be cast as rituals, even if they do not usually have the [Ritual] tag. Spells from the Aspects you did not choose may also be cast as Rituals, but will still expend a Spell Slot, to reflect to personal energy required to commune with relevant deities.

Spirit Points:
At second level you gain Spirit Points. Your maximum Spirit Points are equal to your Class Level. You regain Spirit Point after a Long Rest.

Shifting Devotion:
At second level you can expend two Spirit Points to use one Round to change Aspects. If you are attacked during the process, you must succeed on a Concentration check.

3rd:

Archetype:
At third level, choose an Archetype; Spiritual Conduit, Medicine Man, or Shaman (detailed below).

4th:
Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by two, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by one. As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 with this feature.

5th:
Spell Recovery
At fifth level, whenever you cast a spell you may expend two Spirit Points to use your Bonus Action to recover a used spell slot of a level lower than the spell you cast. At 14th level the cost falls to one Spirit Point for spell slots of 3rd level and below. All spell slots recovered in this manner must be of 5th level and below.

6th:
Channel Divinity
At 6th level you gain the Channel Divinity feature as a Cleric of equal level. You may use this to Turn Undead as a Cleric of ½ your level, rounded up. You gain an alternative use based on your active Aspect. You may expend 4 Spirit Points to regain a use of Channel Divinity.

7-16:????

Divine Inspiration
At 18th level you regain one Spirit Point whenever you cast a [Divination] spell of 2nd level or higher.

Capstone: ????



This archetype focuses on managing the flow of divine power through themselves more capably - casting more spells, more often.

At 3rd level, you may cast your Aspects' ritual spells faster. The additional time for casting these spells as a ritual is one minute. Unchosen Aspect spells require 5 min.

At 7th level, you may choose one of the following Metamagic options:
Distant Spell
Empowered Spell
Extended Spell
Heightened Spell
Quickened Spell
Use of this option expends Spirit Points equal to the spell's level.


At 11th level, whenever you use an action to cast a spell of level 4 or greater at a single target you may cast an additional 1st or 2nd level spell at that same target by expending a spell slot of the appropriate level. At level 17 you may cast a 3rd level spell this way. This expends Spirit Points equal to the Spell Level.

At 15th level, you gain an additional Aspect. You may cast from an inactive Aspect as if it was active. This ability expends Spirit Point equal to the spell's level.




This Archetype focuses on Healing through herbal medicine. Goal is to be a bit weaker than a Life Cleric, but able to heal in an anti magic field.

At 3rd level, whenever you cast a spell that causes Hit Point recovery, you may choose to reroll any number of dice used to determine HP recovered. You may use the higher roll. You also gain the Herbalist Feature.

At 7th level, when a friendly creature takes damage you may expend two Spirit Points to use your reaction to cast a healing spell of third level or lower on that creature.

At 11th Level, whenever a spell you cast heals a creature during combat, that creature gains Advantage on all attacks it makes in the next round.

At 15th Level, _______.

Herbalist: You gain Proficiency in Medicine and Survival; if you already had Proficiency, you gain Expertise. You gain Proficiency with the Herbalist’s Kit, and Healer as a bonus Feat. With a successful Survival check, you can spend one hour each day to regain uses of a Healer’s kit equal to your Proficiency bonus. You may also prepare Medicine*.

*Medicine is a cross between the Spell-less Ranger's Poultices and the Eberron Potion, detailed below. No plan on the math involved yet.




This archetype concentrates on building a more powerful connection to the natural world. It emphasizes poison use, and connection with nature. The spells are known regardless of Active or chosen Aspects, and do not expend spell slots when cast.

At 3rd level, you know the spells Speak with Animals and Entangle and the cantrip Poison Spray. You gain the ability to craft poisons (need to work on details).

At 7th level, you know the spells Grasping Vine and Giant Insect

At 15th level, you know the spells Insect Plague and Regenerate




Destruction
Channel Divinity: For one minute all of your spells that deal damage do an additional d8 thunder damage
0 Shocking Grasp
1 Searing Smite, Hellish Rebuke
2 Shatter
3 Blinding Smite
4 Staggering Smite
5
6 Eyebite
7 Firestorm
8
9 Meteor Swarm

Death
Channel Divinity: For the following minute the first time each friendly creature would be reduced to zero hitpoints it is instead reduced to 1 hitpoint. All friendly creatures gain advantage on saves vs death and saves against spells from the school of necromancy.

0 Chill Touch
1 Bane, Hex
2
3 Feign Death, Speak with Dead
4 Death Ward
5 Raise Dead
6 Create Undead
7 Etherealness
8 Trap the Soul
9 Astral Projection, True Resurrection, Power Word Kill
Healing
Channel Divinity: For one minute you may use your bonus action to heal a creature d8 hitpoints. This rises to 2d8 at level 11 and 3d8 at level 16.
0 Spare the Dying
1 Cure Wounds, Healing Word
2 Lesser Restoration
3
4 Aura of Life
5 Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds
6 Heal
7
8
9 Power word heal, Mass Heal

Learning
Channel Divinity: You gain truesight as per the truesight spell for one minute.
0 Message
1 Detect Magic, Identify, Illusory Script
2 See Invisibility
3 Tongues, Clairvoyance
4 Arcane Eye
5 Scrying
6 True Seeing
7
8 Maze
9 Time Stop, Wish

Nature
Channel Divinity: You magically transform the terrain within 60 feet of you to a fog covered marshland. Enemy creatures gain disadvantage on attack rolls and Perception rolls involving vision, and move at half speed.
0 Poison spray
1 Goodberry, Purify food and Drink
2 Spike Growth, Protection from animals and Plants
3 Plant Growth, Speak with Plants, Sleet Storm
4
5 Commune with Nature
6 Transport via Plants, Wall of Thorns
7
8 Control Weather
9

Protection
Channel Divinity: For one minute friendly creatures gain a +2 bonus to their armour class and saves.
0 Resistance
1 Protection from evil and good, Shield, Shield of Faith
2 Barkskin, Protection from Poison
3 Meld into Stone, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic, Counterspell
4 Stoneskin
5
6
7
8 Antimagic Field
9




Infuse Potions
Starting at 2nd level, you can produce magic potions. You spend 10 minutes focusing your magic on a vial
of mundane water and expend a spell slot to transform it into a potion. Once you have expended a spell
slot to create a potion, you cannot regain that slot until the potion is consumed or after 1 week, at which
time the potion loses its effectiveness. You can create up to three potions at a time; creating a fourth
potion causes the oldest currently active one to immediately lose its potency. If that potion has been
consumed, its effects immediately end.
The spell slot you expend determines the type of potion you can create. See chapter 7 of the Dungeon
Master’s Guide for complete rules on potions.
Spell Slot Potion Created
1st Climbing, growth, or healing
2nd Mind reading or greater healing
3rd Invisibility, superior healing, or water breathing
4th Resistance

[MrStabby]

I think these are looking pretty reasonable.

If you want something exciting at every level for the class dont forget that some levels will give you additional spells known/spell levels which can be very exciting.