Lucha Libre!

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't know why, but I woke up this morning with an intense desire to build a Luchador character. Thing is, I avoid anything grapple related like the plauge, so I have no idea how to build one. I know brawlers, monks, and barbarians have decent grapple archetypes, but if I'm going to do this, I want to do it right. So I'm looking for build suggestions, feats, etc.

The guy should be human(ish), and he needs a stylish mask. Other than that, go nuts.

[Jurai]

Well, my initial idea was Scarred Witch Doctor/White-Haired Witch, but the archetypes clash.

Hmmmmmm...

[atemu1234]

Gestalt Bard // Some-form-of-monk?

[Elricaltovilla]

Gestalt Bard // Some-form-of-monk?

What would bard bring to the table? I mean, bard brings a lot to the table, but for grappling specifically.

[atemu1234]

What would bard bring to the table? I mean, bard brings a lot to the table, but for grappling specifically.

It is a performance art. Don't kill me.

[avr]

A Tetori monk is the best grappler you'll find. The archetype almost builds itself; for your normal feats you might find the Snapping Turtle Style line or the Kraken Style line useful.

A Nature Fang druid with the Crocodile domain and the faithful (Kurgess) ranger style could work if you want more magic, but it doesn't sound like you do.

[Elricaltovilla]

Man, it'd be great if Tetori and Master of Many Styles stacked... I'm pretty disappointed in the Snapping Turtle Style feats, but Kraken and Grabbing Style are pretty good.

Is brawler any good for grappling?

[Kaidinah]

I know Red Goblin Games made a book called King of the Ring. Other than that, Tetori is probably best.

[avr]

Man, it'd be great if Tetori and Master of Many Styles stacked... I'm pretty disappointed in the Snapping Turtle Style feats, but Kraken and Grabbing Style are pretty good.

Is brawler any good for grappling?
The base brawler is ... OK. An unarmed fighter would be better at it. The strangler brawler is better once you invest the necessary feats (for no obvious reason it loses unarmed strike & has to buy Improved Unarmed Strike & Improved Grapple with normal feats), but still worse than Tetori.

Tetori gets a chunk of what Grabbing Style provides with its own class features. Snapping Turtle Clutch lets you grab anyone who misses you in melee, check the full description; the style's worth it for that alone IMO. No argument on Kraken Style, it's good.

[Squirrel_Dude]

So if you're going to build a Luchador, you absolutely need three things well. I'm not familiar enough with Pathfinder anymore to comfortably give you advice, but I do know enough about wrestling to give you advice.

- A lot of charisma (not so much talking, but sheer unadulterated style (http://prowrestlingvortex.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/cuerno2.png))
- Grappling would be important, but not as much as speed and acrobatics. You'd want to be able to deal short bursts of damage as a high flyer
- Mobility, and the ability to fly around a battlefield

Sounds like some kind of martial initiator that fights for the honor of their family

[Elricaltovilla]

The base brawler is ... OK. An unarmed fighter would be better at it. The strangler brawler is better once you invest the necessary feats (for no obvious reason it loses unarmed strike & has to buy Improved Unarmed Strike & Improved Grapple with normal feats), but still worse than Tetori.

Wow... that's disappointing. I guess chalk it up to more ACG editing issues.


Tetori gets a chunk of what Grabbing Style provides with its own class features. Snapping Turtle Clutch lets you grab anyone who misses you in melee, check the full description; the style's worth it for that alone IMO. No argument on Kraken Style, it's good.

Sounds like Tetori is where its at then.

[(Un)Inspired]

You're gonna want to get your CMD to sky-high level so no one can successfully disarm or sunder your mask.

[Goblite]

Specializing in grappling will probably be a lot of fun but you'll want to consider what happens when you face something that you can't grapple effectively such as a large or huge monster. Since you will almost certainly get "improved unarmed strike" in order to get "improved grapple" I would recommend considering "Hammer Fist" from races of faerun (D&D3.5) and maybe "Power Attack" as well. Hammer Fist allows you to make your unarmed strikes two-handed so you get 1.5x your STR modifier and thus also allowing you to double the bonus damage from power attack. Both of these can greatly help offset the small damage dice of human fists giving you a way to attack when grappling isn't really an option.

[Geddy2112]

I add another vote for Tetori-it is one of the few grapplers out there that will have a chance at scaling with enemy CMD.

For races, an Oread(particularly one in a lucha costume) can pass for human easily and has perfect stat adjustments. Take crystaline form to replace earth affinity(which is useless for a monk) and treacherous earth to help prevent anybody from escaping.Suli also looks human, has OK stat adjustments, but the elemental assault and resistances make it good, but inferior to the Oread. Vanarans have good bonuses and racial traits but probably are not human enough for your concept.

Kraken style is best because of the free damage, the choking is meh and tetori gets chokehold as a bonus feat at higher levels. Take the quinggong archtype as well-the only class feature you can swap is wholeness of body, but it is pretty bad. Ki stand is OK, acrobatic steps and gaseous form are both great.

For a sweet mask, you could take the stalker's mask-stealth is a class skill and disguising yourself helps be "human" if needed. The +1 to attacks never hurts either. The medusa mask is also pretty good. Also pick up gauntlets of the skilled maneuver(grapple) and a monks robe designed as your favorite luchador to complete the look.

[Elricaltovilla]

Specializing in grappling will probably be a lot of fun but you'll want to consider what happens when you face something that you can't grapple effectively such as a large or huge monster. Since you will almost certainly get "improved unarmed strike" in order to get "improved grapple" I would recommend considering "Hammer Fist" from races of faerun (D&D3.5) and maybe "Power Attack" as well. Hammer Fist allows you to make your unarmed strikes two-handed so you get 1.5x your STR modifier and thus also allowing you to double the bonus damage from power attack. Both of these can greatly help offset the small damage dice of human fists giving you a way to attack when grappling isn't really an option.

Pathfinder tag, bro.

I know how to do damage though. It's the grappling stuff I have trouble with because its convoluted and involves a lot of silliness.

[Red Fel]

Sounds like Tetori is where its at then.

If your goal is grappling? Very much so. For one thing, Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/freedom-of-movement) is still a colossal pain. For another, you've heard the complaints about CMD scaling.

Tetori deals with all of that neatly. Add BAB to CMB/CMD for grapples. Gain the Grab and Constrict abilities, pretty much ensuring that you can enter a grapple anytime. And best of all, take a look at the Inescapable Grasp ability - shut down Freedom of Movement, shut down teleportation, make your unarmed strikes ghost touch weapons, and automatically grapple incorporeals you hit. You can also shut down polymorph effects, which is sick against a shapechanging spellcaster.

Grappling is still a pain, but Tetori makes it palatable.

[Elricaltovilla]

For another, you've heard the complaints about CMD scaling.



Heard them? I wrote them!:smalltongue:

I'm well aware of issues with CMB/CMD. Its why I avoid combat maneuvers. I've been looking through the Tetori archetype and it's nice. Freedom of Movement is definitely the bane of my existence.

Any thoughts on a name/title for my luchador?

[(Un)Inspired]

Any thoughts on a name/title for my luchador?

El Sin Esperanza.

[Red Fel]

Heard them? I wrote them!:smalltongue:

I'm well aware of issues with CMB/CMD. Its why I avoid combat maneuvers. I've been looking through the Tetori archetype and it's nice. Freedom of Movement is definitely the bane of my existence.

Any thoughts on a name/title for my luchador?

El ____ del fuego.

Always something del fuego. Double points if you make it something silly. For example, an Oread might be la roca del fuego - the rock... of fire. Because del fuego makes everything +2 more awesome.

Also, you'll be a wrestler named "The Rock." Take ranks in Profession (Chef) so that we can smell what you're cooking.

[Elricaltovilla]

Also, you'll be a wrestler named "The Rock." Take ranks in Profession (Chef) so that we can smell what you're cooking.

Are we going back to your allegory thread again? Cuz I'm down with that.

[Vhaidara]

Always something del fuego. Double points if you make it something silly. For example, an Oread might be la roca del fuego - the rock... of fire. Because del fuego makes everything +2 more awesome.

Close to the top. You don't want an Oread, however. You want an Ifrit. La fuego del fuego.

[MyrPsychologist]

I want to be different and say synthesis summoner or Abherrant aegis. Become the masked tentacle and fight people via grapples and constrict damage.

[Psyren]

Man, it'd be great if Tetori and Master of Many Styles stacked... I'm pretty disappointed in the Snapping Turtle Style feats, but Kraken and Grabbing Style are pretty good.

Just be a Tetori with Combat Style Master. If you're grabbing someone with one hand, end your turn in Snapping Turtle Style so you can grab someone else. At the start of your turn, switch to Grabbing Style before you make the checks, and then switch to Kraken Style after you roll with the bonuses. Rinse and repeat. (You can explicitly take free actions while taking other actions, though of course your GM may step in if you take too many free actions during your turn.)

[Squirrel_Dude]

Any thoughts on a name/title for my luchador?

- Prince Jaguar
- El Torito
- Rojo Demon
- Patada voladora ("Flying Kick")
- The Gordian knot

[Red Fel]

Are we going back to your allegory thread again? Cuz I'm down with that.

Tempting, but no.

I do have an alternative name, though:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-22-2015/fyDmT6.gif

iEl Toro Fuerte!

[Elricaltovilla]

- Prince Jaguar
- El Torito
- Rojo Demon
- Patada voladora ("Flying Kick")
- The Gordian knot

I feel like calling myself the Gordian Knot would be a good way to get cut.

[danzibr]

El ____ del fuego.

Always something del fuego. Double points if you make it something silly. For example, an Oread might be la roca del fuego - the rock... of fire. Because del fuego makes everything +2 more awesome.

- Prince Jaguar
- El Torito
- Rojo Demon
- Patada voladora ("Flying Kick")
- The Gordian knot
- El Prince Jaguar del fuego
- El El Torito del fuego
- El Rojo Demon del fuego
- El Patada voladora ("El Flying Kick") del fuego
- El The Gordian knot del fuego

[Fenryr]

Close to the top. You don't want an Oread, however. You want an Ifrit. La fuego del fuego.

My apologies but in Spanish that makes NO SENSE. La is The for female. El is The for male. You're basically saying The fire from the fire. Probably La llama del fuego was your intention but it would be like saying The flaming flame.

Some real names from Luchadores listed for inspiration:
El Santo (The Saint)
Blue Demon
La Sombra (The Shadow)
Villano V (Villain V)
El Mesías (The Messiah)
Hijo del Santo (Son of The Saint)
Dos Caras (Two Face)
Black Shadow

[Elricaltovilla]

My apologies but in Spanish that makes NO SENSE. La is The for female. El is The for male. You're basically saying The fire from the fire. Probably La llama del fuego was your intention but it would be like saying The flaming flame.

Some real names from Luchadores listed for inspiration:
El Santo (The Saint)
Blue Demon
La Sombra (The Shadow)
Villano V (Villain V)
El Mesías (The Messiah)
Hijo del Santo (Son of The Saint)
Dos Caras (Two Face)
Black Shadow

None of them make sense. I'm pretty sure they're just jokes. I'm thinking of going with El Carnero Negro and seeing if I can't squeeze a gore or slam attack and some bull rush stuff into the build.

[Prime32]

Warlord seems like one of the best classes if you want to be a técnico - Charisma focus, daring gambits, emphasis on teamwork...


Luchadores are traditionally more agile and perform more aerial maneuvers than professional wrestlers in the United States, who more often rely on power and hard strikes to subdue their opponents. The difference in styles is due to the independent evolution of the sport in Mexico beginning in the 1930s and the fact that luchadores in the cruiserweight division (peso semicompleto) are often the most popular wrestlers in Mexican lucha libre. Luchadores execute characteristic high flying attacks by using the wrestling ring's ropes to catapult themselves towards their opponents, using intricate combinations in rapid-fire succession, and applying complex submission holds. Rings used in lucha libre generally lack the spring supports added to U.S. and Japanese rings; as a result, lucha libre does not emphasize the "flat back" bumping style of other professional wrestling styles. For this same reason, aerial maneuvers are almost always performed to opponents outside the ring, allowing the luchador to break his fall with an acrobatic tumble.

Lucha libre is also known for its tag team wrestling matches. The teams are often made up of three members, instead of two as is common in the United States. These three man teams participate in what are called trios matches, for tag team championship belts. Of these three members, one member is designated the captain. A successful fall in a trios match can be achieved by either pinning the captain of the opposing team or by pinning both of the other members. A referee can also stop the match because of "excessive punishment". He can then award the match to the aggressors. Falls often occur simultaneously, which adds to the extremely stylized nature of the action. In addition, a wrestler can opt to roll out of the ring in lieu of tagging a partner or simply be knocked out of the ring, at which point one of his partners may enter. As a result, the tag team formula and pacing which has developed in U.S. tag matches is different from lucha libre because the race to tag is not a priority. There are also two-man tag matches (parejas), as well as "four on four" matches (atomicos)

Luchadores are traditionally divided into two categories, rudos (lit. "tough guys", who are "bad guys", or "heels"), who bend or break the rules, and técnicos (the "good guys", or "faces", literally "technicians"), who play by the rules and their moves are much more complex and spectacular. Técnicos tend to have very formal combat styles, close to Greco-Roman wrestling and martial arts techniques, whereas rudos tend to be brawlers. Técnicos playing the "good guy" role, and rudos playing the "bad guy" role is very characteristic of Mexican lucha libre, which differs from U.S. professional wrestling, where many technical wrestlers play the role of heels (e.g., Randy Orton), and many brawlers play as "faces" (e.g., John Cena). Although rudos often resort to using underhanded tactics, they are still expected to live up to a luchador code of honor. For instance, a luchador who has lost a wager match would prefer to endure the humiliation of being unmasked or having his head shaved rather than live with the shame that would come from not honoring his bet. Rudos have also been known to make the transition into técnicos after a career defining moment, as was the case with Blue Demon, who decided to become a técnico after his wrestling partner, Black Shadow, was unmasked by the legendary Santo. Tag teams are sometimes composed of both rudos and técnicos in what are called parejas increibles (incredible pairings). Parejas increibles highlight the conflict between a luchador's desire to win and his contempt for his partner.

I actually tried my hand at a Luchador archetype for Warlord a while back, but I was having trouble making it distinct from Tetori and Steelfist Commando.
Mask Bond (Su): At 1st level a luchador gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, except that he may only choose a bonded item, and this item must be a mask or helmet. The luchador may use Diplomacy or Intimidate for the skill checks required to add enchantments to his mask.
A luchador gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks made to conceal his identity, as long as his mask is part of the disguise. In addition, while the luchador is wearing his mask, any creature attempting to detect his magical auras must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 + half his class level + his Charisma modifier) or detect the auras of his mask instead; this benefit otherwise functions as the misdirection spell.
At 6th level a luchador is immune to fear and compulsion effects while wearing his mask.
At 12th level, a luchador's mask becomes like his own flesh and blood. While worn it can no longer be targeted or damaged separately from the luchador himself. The mask counts as part of the luchador's body for the purpose of spells such as resurrection.
At 18th level, if a luchador dies while wearing his mask then part of his soul comes to reside within it. The dead luchador may communicate telepathically with any creature who wears his mask, and can attempt to possess them unless they succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 + half his class level + his Cha modifier) – this otherwise functions as a magic jar effect with his mask as the receptacle, except that it lasts until the mask is removed, destroyed or subjected to a remove curse spell. Possessed creatures are entitled to another Will save every 24 hours to break this control.
This ability replaces Dual Boost and the warlord's bonus feat at 1st level.

Tactical Presence (Ex): This ability functions only while the luchador wears his mask.
This modifies but does not replace the Tactical Presence ability.


Tempting, but no.

I do have an alternative name, though:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-22-2015/fyDmT6.gif

iEl Toro Fuerte!I see your El Toro and raise you Los Tiburon (http://1d4chan.org/images/b/b1/This-is-how-i-monk.jpg). :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I see your El Toro and raise you Los Tiburon (http://1d4chan.org/images/b/b1/This-is-how-i-monk.jpg). :smalltongue:

I'm getting 403 forbidden on that pic, can't see it

[MyrPsychologist]

None of them make sense. I'm pretty sure they're just jokes. I'm thinking of going with El Carnero Negro and seeing if I can't squeeze a gore or slam attack and some bull rush stuff into the build.

Lucha is like...a soap opera. With suplexes. The characters are heros or villains and they're telling a VERY over the top silly story. Like fighting the devil himself to win back your wife sort of thing.

[Psyren]

Lucha is like...a soap opera. With suplexes. The characters are heros or villains and they're telling a VERY over the top silly story. Like fighting the devil himself to win back your wife sort of thing.

So basically it's just like the WWE in spanish, with masks :smallbiggrin:

[Prime32]

I'm getting 403 forbidden on that pic, can't see itThis work? (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:This-is-how-i-monk.jpg)

[Psyren]

This work? (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:This-is-how-i-monk.jpg)

Yep. Slurs aside, great story!

[Elricaltovilla]

Lucha is like...a soap opera. With suplexes. The characters are heros or villains and they're telling a VERY over the top silly story. Like fighting the devil himself to win back your wife sort of thing.

I know what Lucha is, I was commenting about the grammatically incorrect names that I was getting as suggestions for naming my character.:smalltongue:

[Squirrel_Dude]

None of them make sense. I'm pretty sure they're just jokes. I'm thinking of going with El Carnero Negro and seeing if I can't squeeze a gore or slam attack and some bull rush stuff into the build.Nope, those are actual names of famous wrestlers. El Santo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo) and Blue Demon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Demon), in particular, are two the most storied and influential Mexican wrestlers in history.


So basically it's just like the WWE in spanish, with masks :smallbiggrin:Pretty much. Luchador style wrestling is typically more high-flying, faster paced, and has more complex moves than stereotypical American wrestling, though. It's often described as a dance between the two competitors.

[Elricaltovilla]

Nope, those are actual names of famous wrestlers. El Santo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo) and Blue Demon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Demon), in particular, are two the most storied and influential Mexican wrestlers in history.

Pretty much. Luchador style wrestling is typically more high-flying, faster paced, and has more complex moves than stereotypical American wrestling, though. It's often described as a dance between the two competitors.

I meant, specifically, these:


- El Prince Jaguar del fuego
- El El Torito del fuego
- El Rojo Demon del fuego
- El Patada voladora ("El Flying Kick") del fuego
- El The Gordian knot del fuego


- Prince Jaguar
- El Torito
- Rojo Demon
- Patada voladora ("Flying Kick")
- The Gordian knot

Rojo Demon is backwards. El El Torito Del Fuego should be obvious.

[danzibr]

I meant, specifically, these:

Rojo Demon is backwards. El El Torito Del Fuego should be obvious.
Well, there goes my attempt at humor.

[Elricaltovilla]

- El Prince Jaguar del fuego
- El El Torito del fuego
- El Rojo Demon del fuego
- El Patada voladora ("El Flying Kick") del fuego
- El The Gordian knot del fuego


- Prince Jaguar
- El Torito
- Rojo Demon
- Patada voladora ("Flying Kick")
- The Gordian knot


Well, there goes my attempt at humor.

I got the joke. I even laughed at it. I was replying to someone else who didn't get the joke. Man, this is starting to give me a headache :smalltongue:

[T.G. Oskar]

Actually, Prince Jaguar kinda fits. There's "Prince Puma" on Lucha Underground, after all.

Another thing: when a son, nephew, or a wrestler adopted by a famous Luchador dons its own mask, it typically adopts either the "El Hijo de" (the Son of) or the Junior moniker. That is how you get El Hijo del Santo (the Son of The Saint; IIRC the biological son of El Santo), Blue Demon Jr., Dos Caras Jr. (Two-Faces Jr.; aka, Alberto del Rio, Alberto El Patrón) and so forth. If it's a Small character, then it has to be a diminutive name (Mascarita Sagrada, or "Little Sacred Mask")

The key on making a good Luchador name is to reflect on something. Prince Puma and King Cuervo, for example, exemplify animals as royalty. Mil Mascaras and Dos Caras represent the mask itself, amongst others. Using references to the character's birthplace also works - for example, the Luchador son of an Eagle Knight could be called "Hijo del Caballero Aguila", and probably have the emblem of the Eagle Knights engraved on its mask, and probably make a reference to the knightly order. A heel Luchador from Cheliax, whose family worshipped the Kytons, could be known as "El Hijo del Cadenas" (the Son of the [guy known as] Chains), and maybe wears a chain shirt and a spiked chain (and is a Fighter or Brawler, of course).

In this case, an appropriate way to exemplify the fighting style you want and still have a relatively good Lucha name would be El Señor del Tetori (the Lord of [the style of] Tetori), and your mask could have a reference to the style of combat you practice, with that dash of over-the-top madness.

That said: a way to find a Flying Kick maneuver would be appreciated. The difference between typical wrestling and Lucha is the penchant for high-flying and risky maneuvers, and specifically lots of mobility. Jump should be one of the skills you consider.

[Anlashok]

OP are you distressed at all by how poorly your own martial supplement supports this character of yours?

[Elricaltovilla]

OP are you distressed at all by how poorly your own martial supplement supports this character of yours?

Anlashok do you think you're being funny or do you have something actually useful to add to the conversation?

[Anlashok]

Anlashok do you think you're being funny or do you have something actually useful to add to the conversation?

I ... asked a question. PoW does not have any real support for an archetype like this one and I was curious as to whether or not this character concept has made you think about that at all.

[Elricaltovilla]

I ... asked a question. PoW does not have any real support for an archetype like this one and I was curious as to whether or not this character concept has made you think about that at all.

Then you should have asked that question instead of implicitly denigrating the work that I and several other people spent several hard months on.

To answer that question, no it hasn't.

[Anlashok]

Then you should have asked that question instead of implicitly denigrating the work that I and several other people spent several hard months on.

There's nothing denigrating about pointing out that there isn't a lot of support for a grappler or wrestler in PoW. That doesn't reflect on the quality of the system any more than pointing out that there isn't a lot of support for ninth level casters.

But that's all I'll say on the subject.

[Elricaltovilla]

There's nothing denigrating about pointing out that there isn't a lot of support for a grappler or wrestler in PoW. That doesn't reflect on the quality of the system any more than pointing out that there isn't a lot of support for ninth level casters.

But that's all I'll say on the subject.

Reread what you wrote. The way you word things is important, Anlashok.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Actually, Prince Jaguar kinda fits. There's "Prince Puma" on Lucha Underground, after all.
Prince Puma's spirit animal is, you guessed it, a jaguar.

[T.G. Oskar]

Prince Puma's spirit animal is, you guessed it, a jaguar.

It's relative.

"Puma" and "Jaguar" refer to the same kind of big cat, but you can give them a distinction - the black-fur big cat often ends up being called the "Puma", while the spotted-fur big cat gets called the "Jaguar". As well, it can be a regional difference, the same way the official term for corm/Maize is "maíz", but in Mexico, it's also called an "elote". However, try using the term "elote" in the Caribbean islands, and it'll bring a lot of weird looks. Mexico also makes use of "maíz", but the region has a specific synonym not used anywhere else in the Hispanic-speaking world. Same thing with "papa" and "patata", where the first word is used everywhere in the Hispanic-speaking world except Spain, which uses the latter.

Almost literally, it's "I say 'po-tay-to', you say 'po-tah-to'", except the Spanish version (and for a different reason - Incas called it "papa", Arawaks called it "batata", and Spaniards turned it into "patata") So, if anyone goes and asks Prince Jaguar "hey, your spirit animal is the same as Prince Puma", he can say "you call it 'puma', I call it 'jaguar'!"

...darn, now I want to see Prince Jaguar vs. El Hijo del Cadenas at el ánfiteatro de Guanajuato el Starstone, on a "mask vs. chain shirt" fight...

[Squirrel_Dude]

It's relative.

"Puma" and "Jaguar" refer to the same kind of big cat, but you can give them a distinction - the black-fur big cat often ends up being called the "Puma", while the spotted-fur big cat gets called the "Jaguar". As well, it can be a regional difference, the same way the official term for corm/Maize is "maíz", but in Mexico, it's also called an "elote". However, try using the term "elote" in the Caribbean islands, and it'll bring a lot of weird looks. Mexico also makes use of "maíz", but the region has a specific synonym not used anywhere else in the Hispanic-speaking world. Same thing with "papa" and "patata", where the first word is used everywhere in the Hispanic-speaking world except Spain, which uses the latter.

Almost literally, it's "I say 'po-tay-to', you say 'po-tah-to'", except the Spanish version (and for a different reason - Incas called it "papa", Arawaks called it "batata", and Spaniards turned it into "patata") So, if anyone goes and asks Prince Jaguar "hey, your spirit animal is the same as Prince Puma", he can say "you call it 'puma', I call it 'jaguar'!"

...darn, now I want to see Prince Jaguar vs. El Hijo del Cadenas at el ánfiteatro de Guanajuato el Starstone, on a "mask vs. chain shirt" fight...I was unaware of that, but I was just quoting Konnan from the first episode of Lucha Underground. I still find it a pretty funny line.

[Necromancy]

Heard them? I wrote them!:smalltongue:

I'm well aware of issues with CMB/CMD. Its why I avoid combat maneuvers. I've been looking through the Tetori archetype and it's nice. Freedom of Movement is definitely the bane of my existence.

Any thoughts on a name/title for my luchador?

*ahem*

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406156-Dragon-wrestling-or-proof-that-CMB-CMD-is-attainable-to-the-point-of-being-broken

[danzibr]

*ahem*

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406156-Dragon-wrestling-or-proof-that-CMB-CMD-is-attainable-to-the-point-of-being-broken
Still a great thread.

I should've remembered to link it earlier.