D&d 5e Without Classes

[mr_odd]

Hey guys, I haven't been on in a while, but I wanted to share a mechanic for a new campaign I'm about to start. No classes. Essentially, the players will develop within the game world. See, each character will start with a base amount of health, skills, and proficiencies based off of their background. They will buy attributes as normal. That will be it for startup.

Within the world, the characters will all have an Ayce. Ayces are bracers that allow the wearer to manipulate the magic of the world. Each Ace has ten slots for "Permits," 1 major, 3 moderate, 5 minor, and then 1 converter. Permits are essentially class abilities, feats, spell packs, hp or attribute boosts, etc. Except for passive abilities or boosts, every spell or ability will cost spell points. The maximum amount of spell points a character has is determined by their Converter Permit.

Players will be able to buy, trade, and loot Permits for their progression.

What do you think? I'm hoping that this will create a more "organic" character development and will draw players into roleplay and get them interested in the game world. I also want to create within the players a sense of wonder and mystery similar to how you feel when you first picked up d&d and you do not know how any of the mechanics worked.

[ChubbyRain]

Way too troublesome for 5e. Also with a game that is unbalanced as 5e you will run into some VERY unbalanced combos by accident.

I like the idea but you may want to just use a different system for this.

[mr_odd]

Way too troublesome for 5e. Also with a game that is unbalanced as 5e you will run into some VERY unbalanced combos by accident.

I like the idea but you may want to just use a different system for this.

Yeah, right now that is my biggest concern. Part of me wants to go with it just to see how creative me and my players can get. I also plan on implementing prerequisite Permits for higher level abilities and spells. Eventually, the characters are going to start specializing in their choice of weapon and party role. I assume this would help with the issue, and also give the players a sense of identity.

[coredump]

It will be much easier to optimize or power-game the system set up like that.

How much easier will depend on how you break things down, what (if any) restrictions are in place, and how available the various options are.

Not that it can't work, just easier to break.

It also depends on the type of players you have.

[Easy_Lee]

I think that a system like this could work I'd you come up with a means of valuing the various features, equip features of a given value to specific slots, and ensure that no one can have more than one full progression (full extra attack, full sneak attack, full spell casting progression, full rage progression, don't combine these kinds of things in one character).

It could be fun, but you'll have to be changing things on the fly to maintain balance, most likely. Good luck.

[goto124]

It will be much easier to optimize or power-game the system set up like that.

How much easier will depend on how you break things down, what (if any) restrictions are in place, and how available the various options are.

Not that it can't work, just easier to break.

It also depends on the type of players you have.

The solution is to optimize the monsters and NPCs as well :smalltongue:

Okay I don't know if it'll work.

[ChubbyRain]

A game like 4e would work better since most things are already categorized and are pretty balanced for what they do.

I kinda see this like a Materia system in FF7 or a Junction System from FF8. The identity of a character is the background and how they act, not what they can specifically do. The only difference between the characters of each of those games mechanically is their Limit Breaks. So even if you made a system as the OP wants you could have identity and such even when each player has basically the same choices.

Hmmm... Maybe that would be a cool thing to bring into 5e, some sort of limit break ability based around your background? Hmm...

[Easy_Lee]

Hmmm... Maybe that would be a cool thing to bring into 5e, some sort of limit break ability based around your background? Hmm...

Kind of like the warlock's 9th level spell slot? That might be one way to do it: give the character a once a day spell slot that scales up with level, where they select one new spell that can be cast out of it each time they gain a spell level.

[Mellack]

It sounds fun, but working it all out so that it is reasonably balanced would be a terrible chore. You might be better off using an already made classless system, such as GURPS.

[ChubbyRain]

Kind of like the warlock's 9th level spell slot? That might be one way to do it: give the character a once a day spell slot that scales up with level, where they select one new spell that can be cast out of it each time they gain a spell level.

Yeah something like that.

I would leave the ability to be the same throughout the career, as in they can't change it once it is set. It does scale with level but it isn't like a Folk Hero will be able to change it to be the same as a Noble's limit break.

These don't have to be considered spells or not spells. These are just an ability that you can do.

[critter3of4]

Hey guys, I haven't been on in a while, but I wanted to share a mechanic for a new campaign I'm about to start. No classes. Essentially, the players will develop within the game world. See, each character will start with a base amount of health, skills, and proficiencies based off of their background. They will buy attributes as normal. That will be it for startup.

Within the world, the characters will all have an Ayce. Ayces are bracers that allow the wearer to manipulate the magic of the world. Each Ace has ten slots for "Permits," 1 major, 3 moderate, 5 minor, and then 1 converter. Permits are essentially class abilities, feats, spell packs, hp or attribute boosts, etc. Except for passive abilities or boosts, every spell or ability will cost spell points. The maximum amount of spell points a character has is determined by their Converter Permit.

Players will be able to buy, trade, and loot Permits for their progression.

What do you think? I'm hoping that this will create a more "organic" character development and will draw players into roleplay and get them interested in the game world. I also want to create within the players a sense of wonder and mystery similar to how you feel when you first picked up d&d and you do isn't know how any of the mechanics worked.

I'm tinkering with a low level campaign (0 level to 7-9).

You might want to look at the house rules for 0 level PCs from Rise of Heroes (DrivethruRPG $4). 0 levelers start without a class. Possibly extrapolate something from that?

Or

Eta Same yourself some dough and google "5e 0 level characters" there are similar ideas. Good luck!

[Person_Man]

Sounds like an awesome idea. For balance purposes, I suggest:
You may only have 1 ability/spell/etc that provides an ongoing benefit active at any given time. (Lets call it a Focus Ability). You may switch between Focus Abilities as a Reaction or Bonus Action, unless it normally requires an Action activate.

If an ability normally requires a Reaction to use (like Uncanny Dodge) then activating it as a Focus Ability also counts as using it for that specific instance. (Otherwise you'd have to activate it beforehand and hope you take damage).

You gain a Reaction at the end of your turn, not the start. This allows you to make an Opportunity Attack or activate an ability like Evasion or Uncanny Dodge when you need it during another creature's turn, without fear of wasting your Reaction if that trigger doesn't occur, since you can now use it during your turn to activate some other ongoing offensive ability.

Normal Concentration rules don't exist. Thus you don't have to worry about Constitution checks. But you can't stack them with any other abilities, since the Focus rule exists.

Everyone gets Extra Attack. Powerful Cantrip is built into every cantrip that deals damage by default. (The Warlock ability score which also adds Cha to damage doesn't exist, since its redundant). This does not count toward as a Focus ability or Ayces abilities. This basically starts everyone at 5th level. But presumably they're going to start with few Permits, so I think it balances out.

All spells use the Warlock casting mechanism of once per Short Rest, auto-scaling up to 5th level.

6th through 9th level spells can be used only once per Long Rest.

All spells/abilities/etc have to be found, and thus don't exist in the game world unless the DM puts them there.


The above suggestions should minimize game breaking optimization, while hopefully still providing for a fair baseline of at-will damage and interesting combos.

For logistical purposes, I also suggest that you print out index cards with the different "Permits" on them, with the activation, uses (at-will, short rest, long rest, Focus), effect, duration, etc, clearly described, so that players can very easily manage them and trade them as needed.

Possible examples of Permits:

Assassinate
Permit type: Major
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: Any attack against an enemy that has not yet acted in combat is made with Advantage, and if successful automatically deals maximum damage.

Rage
Permit type: Major
Use: Short Rest
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: You gain Resistance to all damage and Advantage on all Strength checks and attack rolls modified by Strength. Enemies gain Advantage on attack rolls made against you while you are under the effects of Rage.

Sneak Attack
Permit type: Major
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have Advantage on the attack roll. The
attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. This damage increases by an additional +1d6 for every Permit in your Ayce in addition to the one that grants this ability.

Action Surge
Permit type: Major
Use: Short Rest
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: You may take one Action at the end of this turn.

Evasion
Permit type: Moderate
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Uncanny Dodge
Permit type: Moderate
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction
Duration: Instantaneous
Range: Self
Effect: When an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can activate this ability to halve the attack’s damage against you.

Bless
Permit type: Moderate
Use: Short Rest
Activation: Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: You bless up to one creature of your choice (including yourself) within your sight. As long as that creature remains in your sight and this ability remains active, whenever they make an attack roll or a saving throw the target can roll 1d4 and add the number rolled to the result. For every Permit in your Ayce in addition to the one that grants this ability, you may target one additional creature with this effect.

Burning Hands
Permit type: Moderate
Use: At-Will
Activation: Action
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Each creature in a 15-foot cone must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 3d6+(primary mental ability score bonus) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The fire ignites any flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried. For every Permit in your Ayce in addition to the one that grants this ability, the base damage increases by 1d6.

[rzalph]

As previously mentioned, this totally reminds me a FF7 Materia.

I thought it was an awesome system, but obviously it's not balanced against the rest of the rules as written. I'm totally new so I wouldn't even begin to tell you how to balance it other than running it and seeing where the players take the game and adjust accordingly.

Very likely you'll have to increase encounter difficulty significantly after players reach a certain threshold of power, and ban certain combinations as there is a lot of room to break the game with this system.

[mr_odd]

Sounds like an awesome idea. For balance purposes, I suggest:
You may only have 1 ability/spell/etc that provides an ongoing benefit active at any given time. (Lets call it a Focus Ability). You may switch between Focus Abilities as a Reaction or Bonus Action, unless it normally requires an Action activate.

If an ability normally requires a Reaction to use (like Uncanny Dodge) then activating it as a Focus Ability also counts as using it for that specific instance. (Otherwise you'd have to activate it beforehand and hope you take damage).

You gain a Reaction at the end of your turn, not the start. This allows you to make an Opportunity Attack or activate an ability like Evasion or Uncanny Dodge when you need it during another creature's turn, without fear of wasting your Reaction if that trigger doesn't occur, since you can now use it during your turn to activate some other ongoing offensive ability.

Normal Concentration rules don't exist. Thus you don't have to worry about Constitution checks. But you can't stack them with any other abilities, since the Focus rule exists.

Everyone gets Extra Attack. Powerful Cantrip is built into every cantrip that deals damage by default. (The Warlock ability score which also adds Cha to damage doesn't exist, since its redundant). This does not count toward as a Focus ability or Ayces abilities. This basically starts everyone at 5th level. But presumably they're going to start with few Permits, so I think it balances out.

All spells use the Warlock casting mechanism of once per Short Rest, auto-scaling up to 5th level.

6th through 9th level spells can be used only once per Long Rest.

All spells/abilities/etc have to be found, and thus don't exist in the game world unless the DM puts them there.


The above suggestions should minimize game breaking optimization, while hopefully still providing for a fair baseline of at-will damage and interesting combos.

For logistical purposes, I also suggest that you print out index cards with the different "Permits" on them, with the activation, uses (at-will, short rest, long rest, Focus), effect, duration, etc, clearly described, so that players can very easily manage them and trade them as needed.

Possible examples of Permits:

Assassinate
Permit type: Major
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: Any attack against an enemy that has not yet acted in combat is made with Advantage, and if successful automatically deals maximum damage.

Rage
Permit type: Major
Use: Short Rest
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: You gain Resistance to all damage and Advantage on all Strength checks and attack rolls modified by Strength. Enemies gain Advantage on attack rolls made against you while you are under the effects of Rage.

Sneak Attack
Permit type: Major
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have Advantage on the attack roll. The
attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. This damage increases by an additional +1d6 for every Permit in your Ayce in addition to the one that grants this ability.

Action Surge
Permit type: Major
Use: Short Rest
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: You may take one Action at the end of this turn.

Evasion
Permit type: Moderate
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction or Bonus Action
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Uncanny Dodge
Permit type: Moderate
Use: At-Will
Activation: Reaction
Duration: Instantaneous
Range: Self
Effect: When an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can activate this ability to halve the attack’s damage against you.

Bless
Permit type: Moderate
Use: Short Rest
Activation: Action
Duration: Focus
Effect: You bless up to one creature of your choice (including yourself) within your sight. As long as that creature remains in your sight and this ability remains active, whenever they make an attack roll or a saving throw the target can roll 1d4 and add the number rolled to the result. For every Permit in your Ayce in addition to the one that grants this ability, you may target one additional creature with this effect.

Burning Hands
Permit type: Moderate
Use: At-Will
Activation: Action
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Each creature in a 15-foot cone must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 3d6+(primary mental ability score bonus) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The fire ignites any flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried. For every Permit in your Ayce in addition to the one that grants this ability, the base damage increases by 1d6.


This is awesome!!! Thank you so much!

[Person_Man]

This is awesome!!! Thank you so much!

No problem. I'm always happy to contribute to worthwhile homebrew, and I would enjoy reading a campaign log if you posted one on this forum, so that we could all see how it works out for you and your players.

[mr_odd]

No problem. I'm always happy to contribute to worthwhile homebrew, and I would enjoy reading a campaign log if you posted one on this forum, so that we could all see how it works out for you and your players.

I think I will. In all reality, that will help me manage the campaign in a tremendous way, and if it is entertaining for anyone else to read, then awesome!

[Malifice]

I love the idea.

I could build an entire RPG around this.

[Person_Man]

I love the idea.

I could build an entire RPG around this.

I've been thinking about it.

If you're willing to throw the simulationist stuff overboard, the entire game could be a 5-10 page rule book (basics about what roleplaying is, how to resolve checks, etc) and a deck of 100ish large cards (abilities/spells/feats/equipment/etc, all standardized into Permits).

As long as you keep the math in line with 5E (not difficult), you wouldn't even have to come up with monsters/adventures/etc (though you could easily sell them as supplements). You could just say "compatible with 5E Dungeons and Dragons (trademark of Hasbro) and be done with it."

Default setting would be super easy to write. Basically just rip off The Matrix + Jack Vance + Dragons. World grows in population to a trillion people, creating massive supercities that stretch deep beneath the earth and high into the atmosphere. Society learns how to distill knowledge and psychic energy into Permits, rendering formal education meaningless. Widespread genetic manipulation quickly follows, and the first thing people do (after curing baldness and erectile dysfunction) is genetically modify themselves into elves/cat-people/etc, give themselves technologically advanced powers indistinguishable from magic, and create new creatures from their fantasies, like dragons and unicorns. Then society collapses for whatever reason (lets go with something other then artificial intelligence, nuclear holocaust, or zombies). 99.9999% of the population die off, and virtually all of the technology. Fast forward 1,000 years. All that remains are the endless maze of former cities, far flung but tiny community trying to cling to some semblance of civilization, and the occasional adventurer who seeks out the few remaining Permits that continue to function.

Then I remember that I have a day job and a son, and whoever owns the rights to Gamma World is probably already doing something very similar.

[djreynolds]

You know in the original Advanced D&D they used to have examples of real world things. An example, not accurate, was if you military press 145lbs you had a 14 strength. So with this in mind we did a fitness test back in the day to determine you physical skills. If you were smart in school, you had a higher intelligence. This was fun because it really focused the player being a class closer to themselves. Often I find the guy playing the fighter would be dictating to the wizard what spells to use. I said maybe you should be the wizard. Obviously having a twenty strength is fantastical, but remember there were no ability increases. If your friend was a football player maybe he plays the fighter, the chemistry guy was a wizard, the emt was the cleric, the Army Ranger played a ranger, and the hippie kid was the druid, the delinquent played the thief, and the guitar kid was the bard. I think this is a way maybe to play with classes that real person might fall in line with. Maybe the football kid later had really hit the books for awhile for a science test and became a wizard/fighter or the Army Ranger left the service to become a nurse and now he's ranger/cleric multiclass. This way you could forbid ASI's unless they did it real life. What do you guys think?

[JellyPooga]

I would honestly suggest simply using a different system.

I would suggest FATE Core;

1) It's a new system that has no default setting. This will help to give your players that "new game wonder", you talk about.

2) It's really easy. This means you and your players won't have to spend too much time learning rules/ system mastery to have fun with it.

3) Your stats in FATE boil down to 1 High Concept, 1 Flaw, 3 Aspects, 10 "points" of Skills and optional extras. I saw an immediate parallel with your Ayces idea.

4) FATE is a more narrative based game. If you're looking to try and get your players more into the roleplaying aspects of the hobby, than the roll-play, then FATE encourages this.

In short, check out FATE Core (it's also optionally free to download, though I recommend donating; it's worth it...check it here (http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core-downloads/))

[djreynolds]

Very ,very cool. Yeah remember a system like this. Thank you. I hate too much optimization, I remember playing 3.5E NWN2 and they had a MOD called Battle of the Builds. Totally optimized characters, they were cool no doubt but nothing you could really play outside of video game where you could save and prepare for each specific battle ahead of time. "Joe Average" was 30 level fighter and you used him as gauge if you were good or not. Don't get me wrong, its fun to try to number crunch and really optimize a combatant, but people forget about teamwork. You can't possess every skill or ability. I really like this FATE site. I also enjoy number crunching aspect of D&D but also the theater of the mind. I enjoy miniatures and graph paper. Its all cool. But thanks for the FATE site, my kid and I will play this too.

[I3igAl]

What do you think? I'm hoping that this will create a more "organic" character development and will draw players into roleplay and get them interested in the game world. I also want to create within the players a sense of wonder and mystery similar to how you feel when you first picked up d&d and you do isn't know how any of the mechanics worked.

If your group is roleplay heavy, this will work greatly. I would make shure to toss in lots of Inspiration to develop your character in certain directions. NPCs, who could inspire you to share their Faith or copy their fighting style or Shape Changing abillities.
If the group tries optimizing too hard it will end terrible and the flavour might get lost due to weird combos.

[Celcey]

This sounds super cool, and I hope you keep us updated on how it works. However, a word of caution before you proceed: know your players.

If your group is easygoing, willing to work with you, and just looking to have a good time, go ahead. But if they're the type to try and squeeze every last drop of optimization out of everything, and whose main goal is to make the best build, this will fail. Horribly. Because there are going to be times when something doesn't work, or is to OP, or unfair, or is this that and the other thing. There will probably be times when you'll have to take back something you gave the players because it just doesn't work, and they have to be willing to accept that. If they're not, then I recommend sticking to normal 5e. If they are, though, I can't wait to hear what happens.

[mr_odd]

Just to give everyone an update, we finally ran our first session last week. The homebrew seems to be working well. The group I'm DM-ing is excited about the system and they understand that this is an "alpha" run for the system. This week's session is when we will really put the system through the ropes.

[ImSAMazing]

Way too troublesome for 5e. Also with a game that is unbalanced as 5e you will run into some VERY unbalanced combos by accident.

I like the idea but you may want to just use a different system for this.

How is 5e unbalanced?

[Easy_Lee]

How is 5e unbalanced?

There are quite a few threads debating this very thing. To save some time, I believe that the general consensus is as follows:

Some casters feel weak for the first few levels, 1-4ish, due to having few spell slots.
Full casters are very strong at later levels, 13 and onwards, due to spells of 6th level and above.
Game's fine between levels 5 and 12.
Some individual archetypes have some balance concerns depending on the DM, such as beast master.

[Cybren]

There are quite a few threads debating this very thing. To save some time, I believe that the general consensus is as follows:

Some casters feel weak for the first few levels, 1-4ish, due to having few spell slots.
Full casters are very strong at later levels, 13 and onwards, due to spells of 6th level and above.
Game's fine between levels 5 and 12.
Some individual archetypes have some balance concerns depending on the DM, such as beast master.


Define "unbalanced" though. Do you feel like some archetypes or classes just aren't given a chance to do something meaningful?

[Easy_Lee]

Define "unbalanced" though. Do you feel like some archetypes or classes just aren't given a chance to do something meaningful?

Personally, I think that the classes are overall balanced. I feel that some archetypes, such as beast master, require a cooperative DM to work. I feel that some choices, such as frenzy barbarian or blade pact warlock or elements monk, don't offer as much as their competing archetypes / pacts. And I think that spells of level 6+ shouldn't be cast on a daily basis and likely shouldn't be automatically gained by players, due to their high relative power compared to other abilities.

However, these are just my opinions. The correct answer depends heavily on one's DM, which is something I don't like about d&d in general and 5e in particular. You really have to trust your DM in 5e, since this edition gives DMs absolutely all of the power.

[Yagyujubei]

I'm seriously considering bringing this system into a sci-fi campaign i've been building up. I really like the idea so when I get off work I'll think up some permit examples myself and post them here.

maybe it would help to come up with guidelines/rules for how to appropriately classify and slot abilities and feats into the permit system?

[Person_Man]

Just to give everyone an update, we finally ran our first session last week. The homebrew seems to be working well. The group I'm DM-ing is excited about the system and they understand that this is an "alpha" run for the system. This week's session is when we will really put the system through the ropes.

Awesome. Looking forward to future updates.

[mr_odd]

I'm seriously considering bringing this system into a sci-fi campaign i've been building up. I really like the idea so when I get off work I'll think up some permit examples myself and post them here.

maybe it would help to come up with guidelines/rules for how to appropriately classify and slot abilities and feats into the permit system?

I can post my starting permit list, character sheet, character creation guide, and just general guidelines at a later time for all to see!


Awesome. Looking forward to future updates.

I will keep it updated! I have a group of players that are really intrigued by the system and want to help make it work, so it looks promising.

[TheOOB]

Just to note, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of PnP RPG systems, and the heavy majority of them have no classes to speak of. A class and level based system is one of D&D's distinct things(and a major design element that allows for play options that would be difficult if not impossible to do without it). Taking the class system out of D&D seems kind of counter productive, it's like playing world of darkness without supernatural horror, or Shadowrun without cyberware and guns. If you want to play a system without classes, your first step should be to start with something other than D&D.

[mr_odd]

Just to note, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of PnP RPG systems, and the heavy majority of them have no classes to speak of. A class and level based system is one of D&D's distinct things(and a major design element that allows for play options that would be difficult if not impossible to do without it). Taking the class system out of D&D seems kind of counter productive, it's like playing world of darkness without supernatural horror, or Shadowrun without cyberware and guns. If you want to play a system without classes, your first step should be to start with something other than D&D.

It isn't necessarily destroying classes, it is more like a "Build Your Own Class" system. One of the players is a mage who's entire goal is to bring natural magic back to the world and he only relies on magic to solve problems. While D&D offers him Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock (and other casting classes, I know), he is able to create his own mage through the system. Wizard allows you to pick a school and specialize in it. But what if you wanted to go further than that? What if you wanted to focus on only illusion magic or summoning? What if he only wanted to focus on a particular element like fire, or electricity? You can technically do that in 5e, but the game does not give you much if you go that route. So what I have done is allow for that kind of play.

Each player's build boils down to this: 1 Major Permit, 3 Moderate Permits, 5 Minor Permits, 1 Converter, and Natural Abilities. Your Major Permit is what really defines the direction you want to take. Your Moderate Permits create the core abilities you use. Minor Permits are passive buffs, cantrips, and smaller abilities. Converters determine how many E.V.s (spell points) you have per day. Natural abilities are smaller abilities and proficiencies that your character has without any AYCE magic (base attributes, skill proficiencies, etc.)

Yes, I understand it has the potential to be broken. Yes, I understand there are other systems. I'm not interested in other systems. I want to play D&D. I want to use D&D rules, class abilities, spells, themes, etc. I just want to twist it into my own version of D&D.

Also, this system places a large emphasis on me as DM as a creator of abilities. This gives me several options though. I can copy/paste from 5e. I can modify pre-existing 5e abilities. I can scour the depths of 4, 3.5, 2, Adv, and even Basic to find different spells or abilities that I can tweak to fit the system. I can completely create my own. I can take input from players and allow them to be exactly who they want.

For instance, I will scour the history of D&D to find spells for my mage and do my best to balance them according to 5e. Another player is a shaman/paladin-esque character. I will likely pull class abilities from 5e, while flavor texting them to fit what he wants. Another player wants to be a "Copycat." He wants to be able to mimic other character's abilities (think Taskmaster from Marvel). I will have to create my own Major Permit for him along with a few Moderate Permits, but the rest can be passive buffs for him.

I apologize if that sounded "rant-y," it was not supposed to be. I just really think this system has a future, at least for my group.

[mr_odd]

Update: So, we have played two sessions so far. We have not been able to play in the past two weeks due to work/general life. Over the next three or four sessions, I'm going to progress the players rapidly with much combat to really test how the system works. The permit system seems to work well. I will post my current list of permits that are either in play or will be soon. I will also post my character creation guide.

So, I have permit lists organized into five tiers. These tiers are comprised of abilities that are comparable to two levels in typical D&D 5e (for example, tier 1 is relatively comparable to levels 1 and 2, while tier 3 is relatively comparable to levels 5 and 6).

Permit List Tier I
Major - 12
Summoner’s Blood
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous, Special
Effect: Your Aptitude score modifier increases by +2 when casting any conjuration spell or cantrip. Creatures you summon gain an increased ten hit points.

Visionary
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous, Special
Effect: Your Aptitude score modifier increases by +2 when casting any divination spell or cantrip. At the beginning of each day. You may roll two D20s as “vision dice.” These values may be used to replace any two rolls throughout the day.

Spotter
Use: At-Will, costs 3 E.V.
Duration: Until the beginning of your next turn; requires Focus.
Effect: As your standard action, you may spot an opening or weak spot in an enemy within 60 ft. for an ally within 15 ft. That ally gains advantage on the next attack they make against that specific enemy. That ally also increases their weapon’s damage die by one die for all attacks made against that specific enemy until this ability ends.

Gambler of Fate
Use: Passive
Duration: Special
Effect: This permit reacts differently every day, and most adventurers avoid permits like these all together. You however love the risk and believe that luck is on your side. At the beginning of each day, roll percentage dice to see the effects. 01-08 -> Gain three luck points to spend throughout the day to gain advantage on any roll. 09-16 -> Your Strength score is increased by +3. 17-24 -> Your Dexterity score is increased by +3. 25-32 -> Your Aptitude ability modifier is increased by +2. 33-40 -> You gain one level of exhaustion. 41-48 -> You lose 5 max hit points. 49-56 -> You may cast the spells Witch Bolt, Healing Word, Absorb Elements, Magic Missile, and Burning Hands at 2 E.V. each. 57-64 -> Choose two ability scores to increase by +2. 65-72 -> You may use the Action Surge ability four times today at 3 E.V. each time. 73-80 -> Choose two ability scores to decrease by -2. 81-88 -> Your proficiency bonus is decreased by -1. 89-96 -> Your proficiency bonus is increased by +1. 97-99 -> Your max hit points increase by +12.

Beast Master
Use: Passive
Duration Special
Effect: You can develop a magical bond with any naturally willing animal. The animal becomes your companion and will follow your commands to the best of its ability (assuming the animal has no reason not to obey you). In combat, you may use an attack action to command your companion to attack, help, dash, or any other action it is capable of performing. The companion will act as directed until the action has been completed or it is given a new command. A companion that is not currently committing an action and has not been given a new action will act in whatever manner best preserves the animal itself.

Assassinate
Permit type: Major
Use: At-Will, costs 5 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous, requires Focus
Effect: Any melee weapon attack against an enemy that has not yet acted in combat is made with Advantage, and if successful automatically deals maximum damage.

Rage
Use: At-Will, costs 7 E.V.
Duration: 5 Minutes, requires Focus
Effect: You gain Advantage on all Strength checks and Strength saving throws. You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. Melee weapon attacks made by you deal an additional 3 damage.

Sneak Attack
Use: At-Will, costs 3 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Once per turn, you can deal an extra 2d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have Advantage on the attack. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You do not need advantage on the attack if there is another enemy of the target within 5 ft. of the target.

Action Surge
Use: 2/Short Rest, costs 4 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: You may take an additional action on your turn.

Illusionist
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous, Special
Effect: Your Aptitude ability modifier increases by +2 when casting spells from the Illusion school or when you cast any cantrip. Healing spells cast by you are able to appear to heal more than they actually do, including removing scars. This illusion lasts until the target loses all of the hit points that have been healed. When making a ranged or touch spell attack, you gain a +1 to hit.

Spell Slinger
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Your Aptitude ability modifier increases by +2 when casting spells from the Evocation school or when you cast any cantrip. When casting damage dealing area-of-effect spells, you may choose one target to not receive damage. Damage dealing cantrips deal +2 damage.

Spell Protector
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous, Passive
Effect: Your Aptitude ability modifier increases by +2 when casting spells from the Abjuration school or when you cast any cantrip. Whenever you cast a spell, you gain 5 temporary hit points that last until they are lost due to damage or until the beginning of your next turn. Your max hit points increase by +5.


Moderate - 16

Spell Pack – Burning Hands, Mage Armor, Magic Missile
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Burning Hands, Mage Armor, and Magic Missile spells.

Spell Pack – Witch Bolt, Feather Fall, False Life
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Witch Bolt, Feather Fall, and False Life spells.

Spell Pack – Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Absorb Elements
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Absorb Elements spells.

Spell Pack – Disguise Self, Comprehend Languages, Dissonant Whispers
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Disguise Self, Comprehend Languages, and Dissonant Whispers spells.

Spell Pack – Color Spray, Silent Image, Sleep
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Color Spray, Silent Image, and Sleep spells.

Spell Pack – Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Detect Poison and Disease
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Healing Word, Cure Wounds, and Detect Poison and Disease spells.

Spell Pack – Animal Friendship, Ensnaring Strike, Speak With Animals
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Animal Friendship, Ensnaring Strike, and Speak With Animals spells.

Spell Pack – Compelled Duel, Heroism, and Searing Smite
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous, Requires Focus
Effect: Allows you to cast the Compelled Duel, Heroism, and Searing Smite spells.

Spell Pack – Hex, Hunter’s Mark, and Wrathful Smite
Use: At-Will, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous, Requires Focus
Effect: Allows you to cast the Hex, Hunter’s Mark, and Wrathful Smite spells.

Fighting Style – Archery
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with bows and crossbows.

Fighting Style – Dueling
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Fighting Style – Protection
Use: At-Will, Reaction
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. In order to use this ability, you must be wielding a shield.

Fighting Style – Versatile
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: When wielding a versatile weapon as a two-handed weapon, you gain +1 to hit. When wielding a versatile weapon as a single-handed weapon, you gain +1 AC.

Fighting Style – Gunslinger
Use: Passive
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Reloading firearms only costs you your action instead of your entire turn.

Evasion
Use: At-Will, Reaction, costs 2 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you may use your reaction to instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Uncanny Dodge
Use: At-Will, Reaction, costs 3 E.V.
Duration: Instantaneous, requires Focus
Effect: When an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack’s damage against you.

Minor - 3

Cantrip Pack – Fire Bolt, Light, Mage Hand
Use: At-Will
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Fire Bolt, Light, and Mage Hand cantrips


Cantrip Pack – Blade Ward, Mending, Shocking Grasp
Use: At-Will
Duration: Instantaneous
Effect: Allows you to cast the Blade Ward, Mending, and Shocking Grasp cantrips.

Hardened
Use: Passive
Duration: Passive
Effect: Your max hit points increase by +5.




Legends of Aerythul Character Creation
Step 1: Choose Race and Name

Step 2: Select starting attribute scores from this list: 13, 12, 10, 10, 9, 8

Step 3: Apply racial bonuses to attributes. After base attributes are finalized, determine your Aptitude ability score by taking the average of your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

Step 4: Apply racial proficiencies and abilities (racial abilities are placed under “Natural Abilities”).

Step 5: Select one attribute save to gain proficiency in.

Step 6: Select four skills to gain proficiency in.

Step 7: Select one weapon type from the following list to gain proficiency in: Melee Weapons, Bows/Crossbows, and Firearms or select three more skills to gain proficiency in.

Step 8: Your HP equals 10 + your Constitution ability score. Your proficiency bonus is +2.

Step 9: Write down your physical description. Congratulations, your character’s natural, unmodified physicality has been completed!

Step 10: Write down two personality traits that make your character distinct, one ideal the character holds tightly to, one bond to someone or something that the character is immensely drawn to, one flaw that could potentially hurt the character, one dream the character wishes would happen, and one goal that the character strives to accomplish. These may be similar, but similarities should be used to complement each other!

Examples:
Personality traits- I received a medal for my time served in the local militia. I like to read books when I am troubled.
Ideal- I believe that all honorable species that work to live peaceably should be treated with equal respect.
Bond- I carry my father’s golden pocket watch with me at all times.
Flaw- Sometimes my quickness to defend others results in making rash decisions without understanding the situation.
Dream- I want to marry a beautiful elven girl and settle down outside the city.
Goal- I want to keep the islands safe. In order to do that, I must be knowledgeable and aware of the growing ability to use magic once again.

Step 11: Write down your background information. This is how people in the world will know who you. The islands are host to a variety of professions and places called home. Your accomplishments are notable events that you have succeeded in according to you. Your mistakes represent areas in your life in which you feel as though you have failed or have caused a detrimental impact upon your life today. Family and friends are pretty self explanatory.
Example Hometowns: Aerythul (Capital), the mob run town of Crimora (mainland), the port city of Amity (mainland), the farm town of Hallstead (Korradon), the voodoo town of Opal (Raven’s Point), the trader city of Firestone (Raven’s Point), the prestigious city of Enfield (Korradon), or the quiet farming village of Castella (mainland).
Example Professions: Pilot, Doctor, Priest, Thief, Merchant, Mercenary, Soldier, Militia, Scholar, Engineer, Alchemist, Farmer, Sailor, Hunter, Ranger, Herbalist, Beggar, Gambler, Bartender, Mad Prophet, Treasure Hunter, etc.
Accomplishment Examples: Received your piloting license, got married, joined a guild, stole a prized possession and never got caught, etc.
Mistake Examples: Indebted to a mob boss, lost a friendship, was seriously scarred/injured, failed to steal a prized possession and are now on the run from the authorities, etc.

Step 12: List your prominent religious and political beliefs.
Religion: The Kingdom’s official religion is the Church of Eldir, which is monotheistic. The prominent religion in Raven’s Point is a blend between pantheism and polytheism. Atheism is most prominent among sailors, but is still a minority.
Politics: The Kingdom’s government is a monarchy. The Kingdom lives under a list of universal laws, while towns and cities develop their own codes for anything not covered by the universal laws. Most citizens are happy with the government as it stands, but there are some citizens with differing opinions. Some citizens wish to create a democratic form of government, while other citizens believe the kingdom should be dissolved and each city and town should be in complete control over themselves. Other citizens wish for a reversion to magocracy.

Step 13: All tendencies start in the “neutral” position. Select three tendencies to move one step.

Step 14: Receive starting equipment from DM based off of background.


http://s674.photobucket.com/user/xiaxou6464/media/Legends%20of%20Aerythul%20Character%20Sheet.jpg.ht ml
http://s674.photobucket.com/user/xiaxou6464/media/Legends%20of%20Aerythul%20Character%20Description. jpg.html

[Gurka]

Just to note, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of PnP RPG systems, and the heavy majority of them have no classes to speak of. A class and level based system is one of D&D's distinct things(and a major design element that allows for play options that would be difficult if not impossible to do without it). Taking the class system out of D&D seems kind of counter productive, it's like playing world of darkness without supernatural horror, or Shadowrun without cyberware and guns. If you want to play a system without classes, your first step should be to start with something other than D&D.

While I don't disagree that it's a whole lot easier to use a different system than D&D if you want to go without classes or levels, I don't really agree with the rest.

I'm pretty sure that the beauty of one of the many game systems that are not class-level based is that they CAN and DO accommodate all of the play elements you get in a class-level system like D&D, along with many, many more. D&D is the Duplo of RPG's, and there are a lot of others that offer the complexity of Legos. There are many drawbacks to the added complexity and options of many other systems, and I'm not saying that either is inherently superior or inferior. Just that they're different, and while you can (in theory) build anything you want to out of Duplo blocks, it's gonna look a lot less like that you were going for than one built from legos, unless what you're going for is a square.

And playing world of darkness without supernatural horror is like playing D&D without swords and sorcery. It's the genre, not a game mechanic. Does D&D still feel like D&D without classes and levels? Probably not, but it can still feel like an epic swords and sorcery game. I've also played games using Forgotten Realms as the setting, but using a different system, and it didn't feel any different to me, outside of the way combat functions.

[mr_odd]

While I don't disagree that it's a whole lot easier to use a different system than D&D if you want to go without classes or levels, I don't really agree with the rest.

I'm pretty sure that the beauty of one of the many game systems that are not class-level based is that they CAN and DO accommodate all of the play elements you get in a class-level system like D&D, along with many, many more. D&D is the Duplo of RPG's, and there are a lot of others that offer the complexity of Legos. There are many drawbacks to the added complexity and options of many other systems, and I'm not saying that either is inherently superior or inferior. Just that they're different, and while you can (in theory) build anything you want to out of Duplo blocks, it's gonna look a lot less like that you were going for than one built from legos, unless what you're going for is a square.

And playing world of darkness without supernatural horror is like playing D&D without swords and sorcery. It's the genre, not a game mechanic. Does D&D still feel like D&D without classes and levels? Probably not, but it can still feel like an epic swords and sorcery game. I've also played games using Forgotten Realms as the setting, but using a different system, and it didn't feel any different to me, outside of the way combat functions.

That... is a pretty good illustration. That kind of really is my mentality though, like I want to use Duplo instead of Lego. While I'm changing a major mechanic, I don't want to change the rest of the system.

[djreynolds]

I think in a sci-fi setting this could work. Over even a present day setting. But in a medieval setting, people were apprenticed with masters. A rogue was either trained by a master, or learned his craft on the streets. D&D allows pretty easy multi-classing requirements so a character can easily cherry pick. You can pretty much cover all the skills with multi-classing and spell progression is character based now and spell slots can be used for all your classes. You can make a grappling wizard or barbarian/monk or bard/paladin, there's no restrictions now. Could you make an armored monk or gut-buster brigade type? Yes. you just won't be optimized. A 5th level Eldritch Knight/ 11th level wizard is a pretty formidable character. You have some cool homebrewed characters out there, the swashbuckler is cool. But any historic type is possible. Samurai can be strength or dexterity type two-weapon type (katana/wakizashi) that can switch to a two handed katana. You could have him as a fighter or paladin with some monk or rogue or both and get the skills needed to flesh out character.

[djreynolds]

I think that a system like this could work I'd you come up with a means of valuing the various features, equip features of a given value to specific slots, and ensure that no one can have more than one full progression (full extra attack, full sneak attack, full spell casting progression, full rage progression, don't combine these kinds of things in one character).

It could be fun, but you'll have to be changing things on the fly to maintain balance, most likely. Good luck.

Didn't 2nd edition allow players to play classes that allowed you to buy options for the class. A wizard had 80 points, and if he went standard would use them all, but instead he could purchase martial weapons or armor but lost out on hit die or spells, (I know eldritch knight). But it was an option system, a paladin could give up heavy armor and hit die for specialization. Of course this was before the better multiclass system we have now.

[aspekt]

Didn't 2nd edition allow players to play classes that allowed you to buy options for the class. A wizard had 80 points, and if he went standard would use them all, but instead he could purchase martial weapons or armor but lost out on hit die or spells, (I know eldritch knight). But it was an option system, a paladin could give up heavy armor and hit die for specialization. Of course this was before the better multiclass system we have now.

Are you meaning the class kits in 2e? I'm not too familiar with 2e, but this sounds like the kits that set your character up.

I know folks that played a lot of 2e really liked them.

There were also 2 books at the end run of 2e called Player Options: ______. Most 2e folks I know thought they were a bit overpowered and not well balanced.

[djreynolds]

There were both, and the kits were real cool. I'm just trying to add some additional flavor to the discussion. I like the idea of no classes only because of the feeling of freedom, but how did you learn those skills? I think with multi-classing you can cover almost any design or concept you have. But the premise proposed could be cool. Especially for characters who want like a spell-less ranger. Who knows? You can make a spell-less ranger just out of multi-classing but I would just like more archetypes. Sometimes homebrews, just like the 2nd edition options create out of balance characters.

[mr_odd]

I think a class system similar to Borderlands would work really well in a pen and paper rpg. The ability to have three skill trees and work through them would be cool.