Marvel Comics: Just wow

[Scowling Dragon]

I have been out of the loop for Marvel comics for a very long while, which is funny because Marvel was the first series of comics I consistently read, and stuff. I had a falling out when the trend of constant crossovers and combat crossovers started.

Now....I mean just. WOW. Im just stuttering at how bad it is. I mean. Its just ASTOUNDINGLY bad.

I thought DC was going through a Uber gritty time and constant universe bending . But this! This is just a Nuclear grit reactor powered by grit and darkness pumping full throttled grit through a heart of grit, going at a full throttle of edgy and dark, on a scale of supergrit the edgy, with the force of a thousand suns exploding at the speed of HARCORE!

Its not even depressing! Its just laughable!

How did things come to this?

[DiscipleofBob]

To my understanding, it depends a lot on the comic, title, and writer. Both Marvel and DC have "Gritty Gritty Dark Dark" going on, but more and more titles are venturing out into different, better styles. It's why you have things like Rocket Raccoon and Howard the Duck doing surprisingly well last I checked. I read that even one month Howard the Duck outsold the top-selling DC title, Batman.

I've only recently been daring to buy comics again due to DC's Convergence event, which, besides the main Convergence storyline, actually has some very good writing from a multitude of different DC times and universes.

[t209]

And Secret Wars is coming.
Unlike the original, not many will come out alive. The universe is pretty much Marvel: End Times except Papa Nurgle isn't going around sieging the capital.
I also kinda have bad feeling about "Renew Your Vows," especially the Spiderverse storyline (heck, even the Ultimate Spiderman cartoon's positive side is that they didn't relish on killing off other spiderman for entertainment) and Dan Slott's questionable writing. I am a fan of married Spiderman (:smalltongue: including the "fun" times they would have). If it wasn't for One More Day, we would have Peter claiming that how he's the only one with a kid or dropping off Mayday at Avengers Mansion as a playdate for Powerman's daughter. Maybe Spider Island and Superior Spiderman might turned out differently (How MJ having Spidey's "bodily fluids"* made her resistant to Spider virus along with their child's immunity, and Doc Ock's ploy was discovered by "daddy" sense).
*It's canon now, Spiderman has radioactive sperm.

[BRC]

Eh, it's not that bad.

Which is to say, there are some really terrible comics out there, but the Big 2 are publishing some comics that are quite good.

The general rule I find is that the bigger the comic is, in terms of scope and characters, the worse it gets, because it needs to be increasingly common ground, and the only common ground is "People Fighting Other People".

For example, right now there is a gorgeous Black Widow solo series drawn by Phil Noto. The art is amazing, and the plot is the action-espionage stuff you would expect from a book about a superspy like Black Widow. Occasionally you have cameos from other characters, but it tends to live somewhere between Bourne and Bond.

You put Black Widow in a big, crossover Avengers book, and she's just a catsuit with guns. Because the common ground is Fights!

Good comics tend to be a small creative team focused on a single character, or a small group of original characters, with minimal connection to the rest of the universe. Stuff like Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel, Hawkeye (if it ever finishes), the new Batgirl run, Gotham Academy (It's not for everybody, but I enjoy it), She-Hulk back when it was running, Black Widow. All three of the Spider-Lady books (Silk, Spider-Gwen, and Spider-Woman), Ant-Man, and others have been fun so far.
Don't tell Man on Fire, he explodes into rage that Dennis Hopeless is still allowed to write words.

And what these books have in common is that they don't really care about fitting into a larger continuity. They exist in their own little bubbles. Yeah, sure, theoretically the X-Men are fighting Sentinels in Colorado right now, or Dormammu is about to eat the world or something, but that's not the story these books are trying to tell. They're small scale, personal, and in many cases fun. Each has it's own unique feel.

Of course, few publishers can resist the siren call of the Crossover Event! Which usually means piling a bunch of beloved characters on the page again, making them all sad (because you need appropriately high stakes to justify all these supers working together), and then having them fight a lot.

That said, I'm actually kind of looking forward to Secret Wars. Not the Secret Wars storyline itself, which looks stupid and like everything I hate about comics (LETS STOP EVERYBODY'S ONGOING STORIES TO DO A THING WHERE PEOPLE ARE SAD AND FIGHT A LOT), but because it's an excuse to let creators do short runs of fun ideas, like Wild-West Avengers, or 1602 Young Avengers (Okay, those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head).

Like, I don't really care about spider-verse, but Spider-Gwen? Anarchic Spider-Man fighting a bunch of VENOM-boosted riot cops with three Chords and the power of Punk Rock? Sign me up for that.


Basically, Creators having fun with characters, and exploring themes and ideas with occasional nods to continuity = :smallcool:

Massive crossover events where EVERYTHING IS HOPELESS and EVERYBODY MUST FIGHT, so they can put lots of characters on the cover, and everybody who liked those characters from the ongoings buys the book in order to see that two-panel sequence of the character they like acting out of character = :smallfurious:

[Devonix]

oh I thought this thread was going to be about the astonishing stupid revelation that young Ice man is apparently gay.

[Psyren]

I don't think it was stupid at all - in fact, I like the fact that they're not afraid to point out that someone can be gay while still making a go of it by attempting to date the opposite sex.

[Devonix]

I don't think it was stupid at all - in fact, I like the fact that they're not afraid to point out that someone can be gay while still making a go of it by attempting to date the opposite sex.

When a character has decades of consistent internal dialogue and none of it even hinted at him being bi let alone homosexual. And when the reveal is done in such a way as to come from nowhere. I find it poorly done.

It was literally. An out of nowhere retcon and not even having the character in question being the one to bring it up. Someone tells him he's gay and always has been.

As for present day Bobby, well he apparently stopped being gay as a choice.

[t209]

oh I thought this thread was going to be about the astonishing stupid revelation that young Ice man is apparently gay.
Umm, 1960's and Comics Code Authority. Speaking of olden times, do you think Cap will be like Black Adam (as in his "heroics" in ancient time were now considered as barbaric in modern standard) if he was awaken after many decades (though the mainstream might be justifiable since he was awoken in time that isn't too outdated for his values).
Also Mr. Dragon, did you happen to read Ms. Marvel? Before I read it, I though she was just "some a bland token minority to fill racial quota" before I read it for my comic class and got into Marvel comics (favorite included Sam Alexander Nova though). It's kinda like Plastic Man (stretch, fun personified, shapeshifting, and suck it, Mr. Fantastic) but Muslim and taking the name of white blonde woman to get promotion. I hope he didn't got turn away by My Little Pony references.
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ms-marvel-1-avengers.png
Dibs on Nova X Rainbowdash.

[Lurkmoar]

Umm, 1960's and Comics Code Authority. Speaking of olden times, do you think Cap will be like Black Adam (as in his "heroics" in ancient time were now considered as barbaric in modern standard) if he was awaken after many decades (though the mainstream might be justifiable since he was awoken in time that isn't too outdated for his values)..

Ah, the 60s, when a husband could hit his wife (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/electricpetertork/media/reedslap.jpg.html) in the funny pages(okay, that's not from the 60s but the point stands) and Jean Grey was expected to do the cooking because she was a girl. (http://www.cracked.com/funny-4139-jean-grey/)

As for current Marvel Comics I'm reading...I'm not reading any currently. Mostly waiting for the fall out from Secret Wars to see what's what. I'll probably pick up Deadpool if he gets a comic again. Better go look it up...

[Metahuman1]

BRC: JLA/Titans: The Technas Imperative would beg to differ.


To the OP: It got this way because Joe Quesada got to be Editor in Chief, Mark Miller, Brian Micheal Bendez, Jeph Lobe and Chuck Austin got to be prominent at Marvel, and first they were allowed to do the treat it like crap thing in the ultimate universe and it sold well for awhile on previous momentum, so they got to transfer it to main canon.

Thus, Civil War and M Day Happened, which opened the flood gates for One More Day, Sin's Past, Avengers Arena, Avengers Undercover, Avengers vs. X-men, Brand New Day, Killer Genocidal Cyclops who's Magneto 3.0 and now Secret Wars 2 and Civil War 2 happening.

So, you can blame those guys, and marvels flagrant insistence NOT to do what DC does and Reboot every 30-50 years or so, or take a leaf out of what some of the better Image comics do and just retire characters and have Legacy characters take over form time to time. (Savage Dragon form Image comes to mind. The early stuff is a big hard to get through cause it was decidedly Rob Liefield influenced early 90's comics, but by that standard it's good, and it just gets better as time moves on.)

[BRC]

BRC: JLA/Titans: The Technas Imperative would beg to differ.


In terms of the "Smaller Scale books tend to be better?"

[Metahuman1]

In terms of the "Smaller Scale books tend to be better?"

More in terms of insistence that as soon as you go big scale your quality goes down the crapper as a direct consequence of this.


Actually now that I think about it All Star Superman also begs to differ.

[Devonix]

Umm, 1960's and Comics Code Authority. Speaking of olden times, do you think Cap will be like Black Adam (as in his "heroics" in ancient time were now considered as barbaric in modern standard) if he was awaken after many decades (though the mainstream might be justifiable since he was awoken in time that isn't too outdated for his values).
Also did Dragon read Ms. Marvel since it's like plastic man but brony.

The comic's code would only come into play if the character was intended to be gay but couldn't because of the time period.

But this is just out of left field

[Kitten Champion]

Anything here that couldn't be in the General Marvel Comics thread?

I wouldn't complain if there was some kind of specific criticism being produced, but not so much.

[Devonix]

Anything here that couldn't be in the General Marvel Comics thread?

I wouldn't complain if there was some kind of specific criticism being produced, but not so much.

I'm seeing this as a general complaint thread keeping this stuff from derailing real discussion

[Kitten Champion]

I'm seeing this as a general complaint thread keeping this stuff from derailing real discussion

But most of the General Marvel Thread is complaining too.

This is the internet, most of everything is complaining.... or porn.

[Metahuman1]

Or meme's. Or Pony's. Or Cat Video's.

[Sith_Happens]

Or all of the above.

[Thrudd]

I have been out of the loop for Marvel comics for a very long while, which is funny because Marvel was the first series of comics I consistently read, and stuff. I had a falling out when the trend of constant crossovers and combat crossovers started.

Now....I mean just. WOW. Im just stuttering at how bad it is. I mean. Its just ASTOUNDINGLY bad.

I thought DC was going through a Uber gritty time and constant universe bending . But this! This is just a Nuclear grit reactor powered by grit and darkness pumping full throttled grit through a heart of grit, going at a full throttle of edgy and dark, on a scale of supergrit the edgy, with the force of a thousand suns exploding at the speed of HARCORE!

Its not even depressing! Its just laughable!

How did things come to this?

What did you read that was so dark and gritty and depressing? I haven't noticed much like that, unless you're talking about ultimate marvel Ultimatum, or something.

There's a lot of good stuff.

[Metahuman1]

Civil War. M-Day. One More Day. Brand New Day. Sin's Past. Avengers Arena. Avengers Undercover. Avengers vs. X-men. Basically anything X-men set AFTER AvX. Battle World. Or if they've started either of them yet and I missed it, I'd Wager Secret Invasion 2 or Civil War 2.

Take your pick.

[TheThan]

I hope that all this grim-darkness is leading up to some sort of universe reboot.

wishful thinking i know.

[Psyren]

When a character has decades of consistent internal dialogue and none of it even hinted at him being bi let alone homosexual. And when the reveal is done in such a way as to come from nowhere. I find it poorly done.

It was literally. An out of nowhere retcon and not even having the character in question being the one to bring it up. Someone tells him he's gay and always has been.

As for present day Bobby, well he apparently stopped being gay as a choice.

What kind of internal dialogue was contradicted? "Man, being straight is so awesome! Totally not gay over here. Boobs sure are great. Yep, still not gay!" :smallbiggrin:

Also, your close friends bringing up your orientation even when you have trouble admitting it yourself is indeed a thing that happens. Without telepaths, even!

[Devonix]

What kind of internal dialogue was contradicted? "Man, being straight is so awesome! Totally not gay over here. Boobs sure are great. Yep, still not gay!" :smallbiggrin:

Also, your close friends bringing up your orientation even when you have trouble admitting it yourself is indeed a thing that happens. Without telepaths, even!

No I'm talking about his attraction to female characters, his desire for relationships and even jealousy. Hell He shared a body with Emma Frost, and there was so much flirting between them. As well as his pining over other girls.

That as well as the implication that older iceman Outgrew being gay.

[Devonix]

When you see someone in their private moments and they show no inclination towards something until someone else just says oh you were always gay, it is just dumb.

[Psyren]

All I can say is I haven't seen anything out of him previously (or in his future self) that's incompatible with this reveal. And even if I did and it's a total retcon, well, retcons are the bread and butter of this medium anyway.

Now, could he have just as easily been bisexual, probably, but ultimately he's their character and they can do with him as they like.

[Scowling Dragon]

I don't even care about Iceman. Usually stuff like that ticks me off because its very hard to pull off properly (And Never is), and like a truckload of other things about this sort of stuff. And I learned never to argue about a characters sexuality because when you reveal a character as gay or bi, people will automatically just grab whatever elements they like that supports that characterization and everything that goes against it is just repression. Its like a always win logical fallacy.

But Marvel Get your priorities straight (http://instantrimshot.com/)! Get some better writing staff before you start on about this!

As for Grim and gritty stuff, as well as way to overblown in scope stories Im talking about the stuff where they literally go around Blowing Up Alternate Universes left and right and everybody is utterly miserable and committing atrocities, selling their souls, dysfunctional. Its just insane!

[Kitten Champion]

As for Grim and gritty stuff, as well as way to overblown in scope stories Im talking about the stuff where they literally go around Blowing Up Alternate Universes left and right and everybody is utterly miserable and committing atrocities, selling their souls, dysfunctional. Its just insane!

I don't think you know what "gritty" means.

[Devonix]

All I can say is I haven't seen anything out of him previously (or in his future self) that's incompatible with this reveal. And even if I did and it's a total retcon, well, retcons are the bread and butter of this medium anyway.

Now, could he have just as easily been bisexual, probably, but ultimately he's their character and they can do with him as they like.

I retcon I could buy, I dislike them but that's what happens in comics. But here they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Here's young iceman from the past and he's completely gay pretending to be straight , he're older Iceman from the present, he's straight because being gay was hard. Not, Older Iceman is still pretending to be straight, he flat out is straight.

[Dragonus45]

I'll just toss in that I think universally in all circumstances the creation of new characters is better than tinkering with the sexuality or gender of existing ones, unless the existing one is less than a year old or so. It not only avoids a lot of the argument and controversy but give the new character room to grow and be as their own character instead of coming across as a cheap gimmick.

[Tiki Snakes]

No I'm talking about his attraction to female characters, his desire for relationships and even jealousy. Hell He shared a body with Emma Frost, and there was so much flirting between them. As well as his pining over other girls.

That as well as the implication that older iceman Outgrew being gay.

Actually, I read a very interesting blog yesterday about how, as much as Iceman being both gay and firmly in the closet is a surprise from the perspective of straight readers, it's a bit of a "well, duh!" moment for gay readers. Apparently he's been sending off signals since pretty much day one. And that Marvel toyed with revealing him as gay previously in regular continuity, only kinda pulling back at the last minute without actually closing the door on it.

The blog suggested that having a character, a major X-Man character and one of the original line-up being gay and not being comfortable and accepting and out about it is actually a really, really good thing because that's something that so many people in the real world struggle with. An interesting viewpoint that hadn't occurred to me.

EDIT - Ah, here we go. (https://nerdist.com/for-lgbt-fans-of-x-men-iceman-coming-out-as-gay-has-been-a-long-time-coming/)

[Devonix]

Actually, I read a very interesting blog yesterday about how, as much as Iceman being both gay and firmly in the closet is a surprise from the perspective of straight readers, it's a bit of a "well, duh!" moment for gay readers. Apparently he's been sending off signals since pretty much day one. And that Marvel toyed with revealing him as gay previously in regular continuity, only kinda pulling back at the last minute without actually closing the door on it.

The blog suggested that having a character, a major X-Man character and one of the original line-up being gay and not being comfortable and accepting and out about it is actually a really, really good thing because that's something that so many people in the real world struggle with. An interesting viewpoint that hadn't occurred to me.

EDIT - Ah, here we go. (https://nerdist.com/for-lgbt-fans-of-x-men-iceman-coming-out-as-gay-has-been-a-long-time-coming/)

Didn't know about the Chuck Austin thing, but didn't really like most of his stuff so blew a lot of it off. Still seems like it isn't out of nowhere. But just doesn't click for me.

[t209]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicBook/Nova
So anyone wanted to help me edit Nova tv trope page? If you have account, I would be more glad.
I also have a character page and moved some parts from New Warriors for that.
I don't know but Sam Alexander's Nova is one of my favorite character from Marvel Comics. Way more better than the brat from Ultimate Spiderman unless some writers gave him a backstory that would have enough fridges (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge) to start a market.

[Aotrs Commander]

What strikes as slightly odd is that there are already at least four or so gay X-Men I can think of off the top of my head, so it's not like it would seem to be just them going "we need a gay X-Man!". (I mean, Northstar getting married was kind of made a big deal of, sufficiently big it appeared to make DC try to do sort of follow suite, except they are even more anti-marriage than Marvel is...) It just seems a little odd, with all the many, many, many telepaths that have been in contact with Bobby, it's never come up before - especially with him being seriously involved with... rather a lot of women over the years.

(I suppose it's not totally impossible, though, given he actually made himself not have powers for a bit after M-Day through his own mental blocks and most of those relationships ended... poorly. It just seems maybe... slightly more forced than it should be; that if it is going to be something they want to do, it ought to maybe be given the considerable build-up that a really major bit of character development of a long-standing character ought to warrent.)

I'm actually a bit worried for poor Northstar and his husband - because this upcoming Secret Wars nonsense seems like they are both - the husband especially - very much in the "characters in refridgerators" or "killed to show how badarse/evil something is" category.



So, it occurs to me, this whole "warworld" thing... Does anyone actually think they're actually really going to address the ramifications - outside of Having Adventuring Locations For Easy Crossovers - of the wider world? Like, how screwed up the ecomony is going to be, what, presumably becomes of the world outside of America (since nearly all of the "zones" appear to be America) and in general, the actual knock-on effects of a major shift in the very fabric of the world? Because if they are really trying to make a new fantasy planet to play on, it means they... can't just keep aping Earth anymore as a baseline, since the changes are kinds of beyond major.

I am very much afraid that they won't, and what we'll get a sort of pseudo-Ravenloft (or, as I noted in the other thread, Pathfinder's Malabolge), except that (unless the plot demands it) each zone is somehow pretty much self-sufficient.

[Thrudd]

What strikes as slightly odd is that there are already at least four or so gay X-Men I can think of off the top of my head, so it's not like it would seem to be just them going "we need a gay X-Man!". (I mean, Northstar getting married was kind of made a big deal of, sufficiently big it appeared to make DC try to do sort of follow suite, except they are even more anti-marriage than Marvel is...) It just seems a little odd, with all the many, many, many telepaths that have been in contact with Bobby, it's never come up before - especially with him being seriously involved with... rather a lot of women over the years.

(I suppose it's not totally impossible, though, given he actually made himself not have powers for a bit after M-Day through his own mental blocks and most of those relationships ended... poorly. It just seems maybe... slightly more forced than it should be; that if it is going to be something they want to do, it ought to maybe be given the considerable build-up that a really major bit of character development of a long-standing character ought to warrent.)

I'm actually a bit worried for poor Northstar and his husband - because this upcoming Secret Wars nonsense seems like they are both - the husband especially - very much in the "characters in refridgerators" or "killed to show how badarse/evil something is" category.



So, it occurs to me, this whole "warworld" thing... Does anyone actually think they're actually really going to address the ramifications - outside of Having Adventuring Locations For Easy Crossovers - of the wider world? Like, how screwed up the ecomony is going to be, what, presumably becomes of the world outside of America (since nearly all of the "zones" appear to be America) and in general, the actual knock-on effects of a major shift in the very fabric of the world? Because if they are really trying to make a new fantasy planet to play on, it means they... can't just keep aping Earth anymore as a baseline, since the changes are kinds of beyond major.

I am very much afraid that they won't, and what we'll get a sort of pseudo-Ravenloft (or, as I noted in the other thread, Pathfinder's Malabolge), except that (unless the plot demands it) each zone is somehow pretty much self-sufficient.

I'm not thinking battleworld is going to last all that long, that they will need to address that stuff. It will last for the length of the event and I would assume be resolved into a normal single earth afterwards. I don't get the idea it is going to be a long term setting.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm not thinking battleworld is going to last all that long, that they will need to address that stuff. It will last for the length of the event and I would assume be resolved into a normal single earth afterwards. I don't get the idea it is going to be a long term setting.

I thought that WAS the point.

I will be really, really, REALLY glad if I'm wrong.

Though as it will likely ential a reboot in all but name in the end... It may not even matter.

[Psyren]

I'll just toss in that I think universally in all circumstances the creation of new characters is better than tinkering with the sexuality or gender of existing ones, unless the existing one is less than a year old or so. It not only avoids a lot of the argument and controversy but give the new character room to grow and be as their own character instead of coming across as a cheap gimmick.

Except that's not really how it happens in the real world. That coworker/boss/sibling/son/daughter/parent you've known for years, or even your entire life? They can suddenly come out one day too. And unless they were human torch levels of obviously flaming, it's likely going to surprise someone close to them when they do, or a lot of someones.

They didn't tinker with his sexuality - they tinkered with what people thought it was.


What strikes as slightly odd is that there are already at least four or so gay X-Men I can think of off the top of my head, so it's not like it would seem to be just them going "we need a gay X-Man!". (I mean, Northstar getting married was kind of made a big deal of, sufficiently big it appeared to make DC try to do sort of follow suite, except they are even more anti-marriage than Marvel is...) It just seems a little odd, with all the many, many, many telepaths that have been in contact with Bobby, it's never come up before - especially with him being seriously involved with... rather a lot of women over the years.

I'm actually a bit worried for poor Northstar and his husband - because this upcoming Secret Wars nonsense seems like they are both - the husband especially - very much in the "characters in refridgerators" or "killed to show how badarse/evil something is" category.


That just lends credence to the fact that the telepaths close to him don't go digging through his mind at random moments. So, Jean picked up on something this time that wasn't on the surface before that moment.

As for Northstar - you're right, he's a B-lister, and B-listers are prime Fridge candidates (especially when there's another compelling reason to kill them off. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuryYourGays)) But Iceman - he's a major character, so even if he dies it likely won't be for long. So this is a big step for Marvel because now that one of their A-list mutants is revealed to be gay, they'll face a lot of backlash if they revert that.

But that's not even the main reason this is a big deal. Northstar is not on kids' lunchboxes or backpacks. He's barely in any of the cartoons. He doesn't have nearly as many toys as the key players. He's not in any of the video games, or at least not nearly as many as Iceman. Taking this step is a clarion call from Marvel that, hey, we're cool with it and you should be too.

[Aotrs Commander]

That just lends credence to the fact that the telepaths close to him don't go digging through his mind at random moments.

Well... the whole "possessed by Emma" thing is the major point on that, since she's... kinda not nearly ethical as the others. (Don't get me wrong, Emma is awesome, there are reasons why she's an EX-supervillian!)



I should also say, it doesn't particularly bother me much either way (though I would have expected Hank to be a better candidate; though to be fair, he'd likely be kinda open about it), but the way comics are being marketed, as opposed to merely being written... I am carefully sceptical of anything like this, lest it be just ANOTHER publicity stunt.

(And hey, he's alive, not lost his powers and got turned into a Vampire, so really, as far as major character developments go Bobby fans are already infinitely up on, say, Banshee or Jubilee fans, since it's merely a neutral change, not a negative one. (And those people that do consider it one, well... Sorta glad they're offended...))

[Psyren]

Well, of course there's publicity motivations behind it too. I never understood the stance (and I know you don't hold this stance Aotrs, I'm just speaking out loud) that just because a company might have not-wholly-altruistic motives for doing something beneficial, that they shouldn't do anything at all. It's a "better is the enemy of good," Nirvana fallacy type of situation.

[Thrudd]

I thought that WAS the point.

I will be really, really, REALLY glad if I'm wrong.

Though as it will likely ential a reboot in all but name in the end... It may not even matter.


http://comicbook.com/2015/03/18/marvels-david-gabriel-clarifies-secret-wars-plans-hints-at-what-/

This interview tells me battleworld and secret wars are intended to be an elaborate reboot, not a new status quo. I will probably last for the summer, the few ongoing series that aren't ending will be on hiatus and pick up again when the event is over. They are understandably keeping the post-wars titles under wraps so as not to spoil the secret wars story.

[Dragonus45]

Except that's not really how it happens in the real world. That coworker/boss/sibling/son/daughter/parent you've known for years, or even your entire life? They can suddenly come out one day too. And unless they were human torch levels of obviously flaming, it's likely going to surprise someone close to them when they do, or a lot of someones.

They didn't tinker with his sexuality - they tinkered with what people thought it was.



No I'm fairly sure they tinkered with it. He was not gay, then he was gay. Not appearing to be straight, he was straight. He has decades of history being straight and written as such. Really its an awful decision to make because status quo is god and one day he will go back to being the character he was for decades. That means they have to deal with people pointing out its a stupid now then getting hit on the back end because they are then making a "gay" character straight. Making a new character entirely really is the best idea.


Well, of course there's publicity motivations behind it too. I never understood the stance (and I know you don't hold this stance Aotrs, I'm just speaking out loud) that just because a company might have not-wholly-altruistic motives for doing something beneficial, that they shouldn't do anything at all. It's a "better is the enemy of good," Nirvana fallacy type of situation.

Well most often it comes down to being aggravated at some company taking advantage of the issue, and really it isn't beneficial when some group screws it up and does something like this. Of course what the motivation is and the result matter as well. You can stick a gay character in a story for the sake of publicity and I don't care but when you have things like Korra where it was a smokescreen to try and keep fan interest after seasons of flat out awful writing your gonna piss me off. My issues are not your smoke screen. You go screwing around with established characters your not helping people like me be more visible your pissing people off by screwing about with a great deal of existing characterization and making it harder to get people to pay attention to the issue.

[Tiki Snakes]

(I suppose it's not totally impossible, though, given he actually made himself not have powers for a bit after M-Day through his own mental blocks and most of those relationships ended... poorly. It just seems maybe... slightly more forced than it should be; that if it is going to be something they want to do, it ought to maybe be given the considerable build-up that a really major bit of character development of a long-standing character ought to warrent.)

I think that given that the people with personal experience of this kind of dilemma have been busy arguing about this exact subject and the signals given since the start of the internet that this has probably had sufficient build-up, it's just that it's a lot more subtle from certain points of view than we're used to. Hell, even Family Guy seem to have picked up on it, there's a cut-away gag in one episode that takes on a whole new significance looking back.


Well... the whole "possessed by Emma" thing is the major point on that, since she's... kinda not nearly ethical as the others. (Don't get me wrong, Emma is awesome, there are reasons why she's an EX-supervillian!)

She's also, for all her flaws, not the kind of person I would expect to be particularly judgemental. Let's say she was privy to that information during her little jaunt. I honestly can't see her caring enough to mention it, you know? The fact that she just proved how badly he had been coasting all those years and not nearly living up to his potential was far more interesting to her in terms of needling him.

[Talya]

This is the internet, most of everything is complaining.... or porn.

To be fair, this isn't a mutually exclusive thing either. There are also porn complaints!

[Psyren]

He has decades of history being straight and written as such.

How exactly do you "write someone straight?" All you have to go on are his actions, which prove nothing on their own. And while I haven't read every single one of his internal monologues over the past 50 years, I highly doubt they said anything like "yep, totally definitely not gay!"

Sexual identity - like gender identity - is extremely complex, because we are all ultimately bundles of chemicals with opinions. You can even point to examples where he has displayed attraction to specific women (or seemed to), and it wouldn't be definitive.

In the end, all you have are your perceptions of the character, and perceptions are easily flawed.



Well most often it comes down to being aggravated at some company taking advantage of the issue, and really it isn't beneficial when some group screws it up and does something like this.

Eh, aside from a few angry fans throwing their toys out of the pram, the reaction I've seen to this - especially outside of the comic book world - has been largely positive. This news made it very far outside that sphere - even to CNN, the Wall Street Journal, Rolling Stone, Forbes etc. So I'm not sure under what metric they "screwed up."



Of course what the motivation is and the result matter as well. You can stick a gay character in a story for the sake of publicity and I don't care but when you have things like Korra where it was a smokescreen to try and keep fan interest after seasons of flat out awful writing your gonna piss me off. My issues are not your smoke screen. You go screwing around with established characters your not helping people like me be more visible your pissing people off by screwing about with a great deal of existing characterization and making it harder to get people to pay attention to the issue.

I'm sure there are many cynical folks out there who, as above, see this merely as a "smoke screen" to cover up some perceived inadequacy or failing of the material itself. And that's okay, they and you are welcome to believe that - but all that says to me is that this revelation was meant for the other fans (and equally important, the to-be-fans.)

[Aotrs Commander]

I think that given that the people with personal experience of this kind of dilemma have been busy arguing about this exact subject and the signals given since the start of the internet that this has probably had sufficient build-up, it's just that it's a lot more subtle from certain points of view than we're used to. Hell, even Family Guy seem to have picked up on it, there's a cut-away gag in one episode that takes on a whole new significance looking back.

Nevertheless, it's an issue that needs to handled "right." Which is not what I would categorise Marvel's recent history of writing as.



She's also, for all her flaws, not the kind of person I would expect to be particularly judgemental. Let's say she was privy to that information during her little jaunt. I honestly can't see her caring enough to mention it, you know? The fact that she just proved how badly he had been coasting all those years and not nearly living up to his potential was far more interesting to her in terms of needling him.

I can't see her not mentioning it to needle him at some point. The two of them have... a somewhat... interesting relationship...

[Tiki Snakes]

I can't see her not mentioning it to needle him at some point. The two of them have... a somewhat... interesting relationship...

There is a panel I saw out of context in which she makes a joke about his real interest being in interior decorating or some such? I think she may have already gone there. (http://geeksout.org/sites/default/files/blog-images/Screen%20Shot%202015-04-20%20at%2010.48.23%20PM.png)

[Psyren]

There is a panel I saw out of context in which she makes a joke about his real interest being in interior decorating or some such? I think she may have already gone there. (http://geeksout.org/sites/default/files/blog-images/Screen%20Shot%202015-04-20%20at%2010.48.23%20PM.png)

Emma, you so sassy. :smallbiggrin:

[TheThan]

I agree with dragonus for the same reasons.

People will rage at marvel for suddenly making Iceman gay. Then people will rage when he suddenly becomes straight again. Marvel wants publicity and they don’t really care if it’s positive or negative, so they make seemingly crazy decisions to do this. They would do better to keep their characters consistent. That way characters don’t flip flop in sexuality like it’s some sort of fad or something and alienate any group of readers they have. you end up with actual characters and not demographics.

And please keep in mind that these are comic book characters. Fictional characters are never as complex as real people and comic books are as about as subtle as a sledge hammer with dynamite strapped to it.

[Psyren]

Have they ever made a gay character straight again? Without something really drastic like an alternate universe or setting-wide reboot that is. Is there a straight Northstar running around out there (no pun intended) or a straight Ultimate Colossus?

[TeChameleon]

To be honest, I have a hard time getting any more excited about gay young Iceman than I do about Sam Wilson Cap or female-Thor-whose-name-I-never-learned-because-I-don't-expect-her-to-last-any-longer-than-Thunderstrike. It's not going to last because the big two are allergic to change. Either the readership whinges, or else a new crop of inmates start running the asylum, and the characters all have to be the same as when they were getting into reading comics.

... which, now that I think about it, neatly explains the current 'grimgrit!!!!1!' trend- the 90s were twenty-ish years ago (.. good grief, I feel old now), so those who were new readers in that era would be about the right age to be gaining prominence in the industry.

[Dragonus45]

Well for starters most gay characters I cant think of many characters that were straight for decades but made gay and the ones I can think of are all mostly alternate universe types like Ultimate Collosus or Earth 2 green lantern, which is a problem in its own right. Also at this point Northstore is a rather minor character whose only real character train I can name is that he is gay. Its easy to make him gay and keep it, its easy to make earth 9756 batman gay. For someone with the history that Ice Man has I doubt this will last more than a few years. Then again Peter Parker and Mary Jane are still retoconned out of marriage so who knows. Listen I'm not saying I want less gay characters in comics, I would rather enjoy it. But this is not what I want. I want a real character, one who when they create him they intend them to be gay. Not this half assed bull**** where you take a major character and make them gay just because. Also while I agree FemThor is doomed I think Captian Falcon might wind up with staying power just because of the possibility he could be the new movie cap.

[Kitten Champion]

I agree with dragonus for the same reasons.

People will rage at marvel for suddenly making Iceman gay. Then people will rage when he suddenly becomes straight again. Marvel wants publicity and they don’t really care if it’s positive or negative, so they make seemingly crazy decisions to do this. They would do better to keep their characters consistent. That way characters don’t flip flop in sexuality like it’s some sort of fad or something and alienate any group of readers they have. you end up with actual characters and not demographics.

And please keep in mind that these are comic book characters. Fictional characters are never as complex as real people and comic books are as about as subtle as a sledge hammer with dynamite strapped to it.

Er... Marvel's not exactly impeccable in any area, but they tend to wear their politics on their sleeve. God, the Ultimate Universe in its entirety is an example of this so large it can be seen from the Crab Nebula.

Bringing characters back from the dead, elaborate ret-conning of character histories and the MU itself, and characters doing reprehensible things and having terrible things happen to them that inflame the fanbase/internet - yes, that's going to happen - straightening out a character who is now canonically gay... no... that's not in their basic make-up as a business.

[Metahuman1]

http://comicbook.com/2015/03/18/marvels-david-gabriel-clarifies-secret-wars-plans-hints-at-what-/

This interview tells me battleworld and secret wars are intended to be an elaborate reboot, not a new status quo. I will probably last for the summer, the few ongoing series that aren't ending will be on hiatus and pick up again when the event is over. They are understandably keeping the post-wars titles under wraps so as not to spoil the secret wars story.

The idea that there doing a reboot might be the most encouraging thing I've seen out of them in ages.

Undo enough of the last Decade and some changes BS (Civil War, M day, One More Day, Sin's Past, Brand New Day, Avengers Arena, Avengers Undercover, Avengers Vs. X-men, this BS with Cyclops they've got going.) And keep the lions share of the good stuff/ideas (Parker going into business with his inventions, Carol Danvers becoming Captain Marvel, The New Ms. Marvel, Kid Loki/Loki Agent of Asgard having happened/being a thing that's going on (Cause that just gives you more tie in material to eventually turn MCU Loki good and watch the fans go utterly Ape over it after all.) the newer stuff with Howard The Duck and Guardians of the Galaxy.). And I will actually start reading comics from you again Marvel. Noting this at a time were I am buying less and less and less of your biggest competitor.

[Psyren]

To be honest, I have a hard time getting any more excited about gay young Iceman than I do about Sam Wilson Cap or female-Thor-whose-name-I-never-learned-because-I-don't-expect-her-to-last-any-longer-than-Thunderstrike. It's not going to last because the big two are allergic to change. Either the readership whinges, or else a new crop of inmates start running the asylum, and the characters all have to be the same as when they were getting into reading comics.

And yet, when a character is revealed to be gay, they generally stay that way. Unless, again, there is straight Northstar running around on 616 somewhere and I simply missed it, or similar.

They might have a new Iceman entirely for awhile or something (or Icewoman?), but having taken this step with Bobby Drake there isn't much reason for them to go back on it, at least not in this continuity.


Also at this point Northstore is a rather minor character whose only real character train I can name is that he is gay. Its easy to make him gay and keep it, its easy to make earth 9756 batman gay.

Perhaps now you're starting to realize why this is important, then :smallwink:


For someone with the history that Ice Man has I doubt this will last more than a few years. Then again Peter Parker and Mary Jane are still retoconned out of marriage so who knows.

Thing is though, this is not a great analogy. Social arrangements like marriage (perhaps especially marriage) are far more ephemeral than sexuality; changing who you're married to is child's play by comparison. For them to say "syke, just kidding, he's straight" would not only cause a huge backlash, it would just plain be unbelievable - more lying to himself and those around him.


Listen I'm not saying I want less gay characters in comics, I would rather enjoy it. But this is not what I want. I want a real character, one who when they create him they intend them to be gay. Not this half assed bull**** where you take a major character and make them gay just because.

And yet - if they made a new character just for the sake of having a gay character, they would just be another Northstar, known for that and little to nothing else. An established character who just happens to be gay is considerably more powerful, especially (again) someone in the main lineup who young LGBT fans can now see as a role model, and who the straight ones can see as being just another superhero.

[Logic]

I have to admit, initially I was annoyed that Iceman was outed as gay. But the more I thought about it the less it bothered me, until it simply ceased to bother me at all.

Overall, I don't think it fundamentally changes who Iceman is; he is still a hero, and an outcast from society as a whole despite that.

I am curious as how Marvel is going to reconcile Young Iceman and Old Iceman being gay/straight respectively. That could be an interesting story.

[BRC]

I am curious as how Marvel is going to reconcile Young Iceman and Old Iceman being gay/straight respectively. That could be an interesting story.

This is kind of my issue with it.
If he was Bisexual, or an alt-universe version, or even a clone or something, that could be different. But this is literally the younger version of an existing character who has had straight relationships in the past
The problem is less "Iceman is gay" or "They made an established character gay as a publicity stunt" (Publicity stunts are part of the business. That's like saying "Oh, that movie just released a new trailer as a publicity stunt"), and more that it casts plenty of past storytelling in a new light. Oh, you liked it when Bobby and Kitty Pride were dating? Well, that storyline was now about a closeted gay man (with ice powers) denying his true sexuality!"

I mean, it will end up fine. I'm not really invested in the character, and more LGBTQ+ characters are a good thing in my book.

[Psyren]

It's not that hard to reconcile. He was going on dates with the opposite sex because (a) he wasn't ready to admit it to himself, (b) he wasn't ready to admit it to others, or (c) a combination of both. Happens all the time.

[BRC]

It's not that hard to reconcile. He was going on dates with the opposite sex because (a) he wasn't ready to admit it to himself, (b) he wasn't ready to admit it to others, or (c) a combination of both. Happens all the time.
Oh, it's not hard to reconcile, but it casts those old stories and relationships in a different light.

Basically, any past straight relationship that Iceman was in is retroactively changed. It's no longer the story of two people who were attracted to each other, it's the story of a woman who was (Maybe) attracted to Bobby, and Bobby faking any attraction on his part in order to convince himself/others of his heterosexuality.

[Tyndmyr]

How exactly do you "write someone straight?" All you have to go on are his actions, which prove nothing on their own. And while I haven't read every single one of his internal monologues over the past 50 years, I highly doubt they said anything like "yep, totally definitely not gay!"

Pretty much the same way you'd write somebody gay. You reveal it in their actions, words, and/or internal dialogue. It's not like there's any difference here. And, when talking about fictional characters, their portrayal IS them.

But, I don't particularly care for Iceman, so my concerns for his continuity are limited. It's a publicity stunt is all. And not even a particularly original or exciting one at that. Whatever.

[Logic]

This is kind of my issue with it.
If he was Bisexual, or an alt-universe version, or even a clone or something, that could be different. But this is literally the younger version of an existing character who has had straight relationships in the past
The problem is less "Iceman is gay" or "They made an established character gay as a publicity stunt" (Publicity stunts are part of the business. That's like saying "Oh, that movie just released a new trailer as a publicity stunt"), and more that it casts plenty of past storytelling in a new light. Oh, you liked it when Bobby and Kitty Pride were dating? Well, that storyline was now about a closeted gay man (with ice powers) denying his true sexuality!"

I mean, it will end up fine. I'm not really invested in the character, and more LGBTQ+ characters are a good thing in my book.

It's not that hard to reconcile. He was going on dates with the opposite sex because (a) he wasn't ready to admit it to himself, (b) he wasn't ready to admit it to others, or (c) a combination of both. Happens all the time.

Oh, it's not hard to reconcile, but it casts those old stories and relationships in a different light.

Basically, any past straight relationship that Iceman was in is retroactively changed. It's no longer the story of two people who were attracted to each other, it's the story of a woman who was (Maybe) attracted to Bobby, and Bobby faking any attraction on his part in order to convince himself/others of his heterosexuality.
I fear I may have given the impression that I have issue with this dichotomy between the characters. I really don't. When I say I am curious as to how Marvel will reconcile this, it is pure curiosity. I think I will have issue with this turn of events if they do a soft backpedal, and reveal that Adult Iceman isn't really gay, or somehow not gay anymore, as that would undo the character development that they have given him by revealing his younger self is gay.

I know retcons are often the name of the game in comics, but this one feels a bit too hard to take back. I hope they don't. And the story explaining why Adult Bobby Drake isn't gay could be a good one, but the story that will have more impact is one that has him coming to terms with it rather than denying it or ignoring this character development.

[Psyren]

It's a publicity stunt is all. And not even a particularly original or exciting one at that. Whatever.

It's still a good move for the industry, "stunt" or not. And it's way, way bigger than the Alan Scott thing a few months prior. Like I said upthread, Iceman is on lunchboxes, on backpacks, in video games. They could be facing a lot of blowback and they did it anyway, and I think that is worthy of kudos.


Oh, it's not hard to reconcile, but it casts those old stories and relationships in a different light.

Basically, any past straight relationship that Iceman was in is retroactively changed. It's no longer the story of two people who were attracted to each other, it's the story of a woman who was (Maybe) attracted to Bobby, and Bobby faking any attraction on his part in order to convince himself/others of his heterosexuality.

Not necessarily - it's possible for a gay man to be attracted to individual women, however briefly. The attraction may be fleeting in the end - which could be a big part of why he's still single after all this time - but that doesn't mean it was wholly false when it occurred. Like I said, human sexuality is still a pretty complicated nut to crack, decades after Kinsey.


I fear I may have given the impression that I have issue with this dichotomy between the characters. I really don't. When I say I am curious as to how Marvel will reconcile this, it is pure curiosity. I think I will have issue with this turn of events if they do a soft backpedal, and reveal that Adult Iceman isn't really gay, or somehow not gay anymore, as that would undo the character development that they have given him by revealing his younger self is gay.

I know retcons are often the name of the game in comics, but this one feels a bit too hard to take back. I hope they don't. And the story explaining why Adult Bobby Drake isn't gay could be a good one, but the story that will have more impact is one that has him coming to terms with it rather than denying it or ignoring this character development.

I highly doubt they will take this back. Again, I can think of no examples where they reverted a gay character to being straight without replacing that version of the character (or even the universe they inhabit) entirely. If there are any such examples, I'd be genuinely interested to hear them.

[WitchSlayer]

Speaking as a bisexual the way it was done was infuriating and it has made me furious. The way it was written, what was said, what the EIC said about it, all of it was extremely offensive and honestly more than a little stupid. For one let's get this one out of the way, Bobby is canonically heterosexual in the future and they acknowledge this, this brings up a whole other can of worms that I will not delve into.

Secondly the fact that they dismiss this Iceman's former relationships, particularly with Kitty Pryde with the excuse that "She is in space" or that he hadn't had much luck in the past with women, not because he broke up with him but the other way around. Marvel's EIC stated that because he faltered on the romantic stage then that was a "hint" at his homosexuality which is almost complete nonsense when you see how it faltered.

Lastly and the thing that offended me the most out of all of this, the biphobia. Now some people will say this is because of Jean Gray and it's just something stupid a teenager would say right? No, I don't buy that for a second. It is Brian Michael Bendis and the tweets and replies to the tweets indicate as much. The "they say everyone is bisexual" is a slur and "full gay" isn't exactly great either. And genuinely I could not give a damn if they actually made him bi or not, but what was said was offensive to me, at this point it feels like the only Marvel hero I can identity with is the Invisible Woman, because I know what it feels like to not be seen.

So I am boycotting Marvel, as little as it matters, I am not supporting their company anymore.

[Psyren]

I did catch that there was a negative reaction from bisexuals around the reveal and that it could constitute bi-erasure. Let me see if I can dig up the article.

EDIT: Found it (http://www.themarysue.com/all-new-x-men-bisexuality/)

[Aotrs Commander]

There is a panel I saw out of context in which she makes a joke about his real interest being in interior decorating or some such? I think she may have already gone there. (http://geeksout.org/sites/default/files/blog-images/Screen%20Shot%202015-04-20%20at%2010.48.23%20PM.png)

Okay, that's fair!

(And also so very Emma...!)


I have to admit, initially I was annoyed that Iceman was outed as gay. But the more I thought about it the less it bothered me, until it simply ceased to bother me at all.

Overall, I don't think it fundamentally changes who Iceman is; he is still a hero, and an outcast from society as a whole despite that.

I am curious as how Marvel is going to reconcile Young Iceman and Old Iceman being gay/straight respectively. That could be an interesting story.

I think I am sort of in your camp. My initial reaction was, not perhaps quite annoyance, but merely cynicism at what might be another marketing ploy, but discussion here has shown that maybe it's not a completely unbeleivable idea (like say Wolverine or Sue Storm or Cyclops or something), actually; so I think I could be pursuaded (as long as they do it with a certain level of tact and coherece) that this is, in fact, not an issue of any concern. As long as.



Though ask me again if they decide to start going further and further with this sort of thing and end up doing something like making Jubilee a dude or something, 'cos there are limits to what I will tolerate without hunting people down and vivisecting them with blunt instruments over...



Edit: Actually him being bisexual would actually make more sense, come to that. Especially given as I am told that gay=>straight is not a binary, but more of a sliding scale anyway1. Actually, I might be far more inclined to support that since I am not instantly aware of any Marvel Superheroes who are bisexual (other than in the "it's a woman so it's more acceptable/hawt (sic)" sense. (Especially since Bobby does have a history with a far number of woman, too.)



1I personally am not on the scale, even near the scale, in the same universe of as the scale or even have yet to found a compartive relation to the scale that is properly unique, since I wouldn't be a member of any [insert descriptor]-sexual club (even, apparently, anti-) that would have me as a member...

[t209]

It's still a good move for the industry, "stunt" or not. And it's way, way bigger than the Alan Scott thing a few months prior. Like I said upthread, Iceman is on lunchboxes, on backpacks, in video games. They could be facing a lot of blowback and they did it anyway, and I think that is worthy of kudos.
Then DC murdered Alan Scott's lover to make him deeper.
On the other hand, at least it's not a woman.
Speaking of which, all green lanterns got "women in the fridge" treatment to the point that ghosts of Kyle Rayner's girlfriends even pointed out to his current one.
And like Bobby Drake, he was also made Mexican despite being Caucasian.

[Psyren]

Then DC murdered Alan Scott's lover to make him deeper.
On the other hand, at least it's not a woman.

Indeed, gratuitous things like that is why the "Bury Your Gays" trope exists.

[Jayngfet]

Indeed, gratuitous things like that is why the "Bury Your Gays" trope exists.

...people die in backstories all the time. Lovers, siblings, parents, friends, I remember once they even stretched it far enough to have someone devote their lives to hunting down their roommate's killer. To claim it's somehow extra bad because the character involved was gay is kind of ridiculous.

[Foeofthelance]

It's not that hard to reconcile. He was going on dates with the opposite sex because (a) he wasn't ready to admit it to himself, (b) he wasn't ready to admit it to others, or (c) a combination of both. Happens all the time.

It does sort of cast that whole story arc where he went nuts and kickstarted a new ice age due to him having had so many issues with women.

[Psyren]

...people die in backstories all the time. Lovers, siblings, parents, friends, I remember once they even stretched it far enough to have someone devote their lives to hunting down their roommate's killer. To claim it's somehow extra bad because the character involved was gay is kind of ridiculous.

Not bad, just clichéd and overdone when it's a gay character or gay couple. The trope page explains the phenomenon well.

[t209]

Not bad, just clichéd and overdone when it's a gay character or gay couple. The trope page explains the phenomenon well.
Remember Freedom Ring, or Kirkman's short comic story on how long a teenage hero last in Marvel Universe. Then Joe Q announced that Freedom Ring is gay and didn't turn out well when Kirkman's story end.
P.S- So any words on Nova. Because here's my (near-idiotic) speculation.
- Possibly explaining Sam Alexander using Nova Force despite
being used up in saving Peter Quil though I remember that he left the Worldmind at Knowhere. like Nova Force being Warhammer's Wild Winds of Magic.
- Issue 29 hinted that Rob Rider may still be alive, which was absent since Thanos Imperative.
- Jesse Alexander, Sam's dad, might be xandarian (VERY lucky enough to escape from Annihilation Wave, offspring of Xandarian scientist(s) stationed on Earth or crashed to Earth like Superman a certain alien orphan in rocked pod).
- And why am I imagining the Black Vortex as some mirror thing (except one of them is a portal and the other is pony's inner thoughts) from My Little Pony, or I watched that show?

[Jayngfet]

Not bad, just clichéd and overdone when it's a gay character or gay couple. The trope page explains the phenomenon well.

So this evidently happens more often than say, parents. Or the whole women in refrigerators thing. Or entire hometowns.

TV Tropes is kind of crap when it comes to this just because they try infinitely subdividing to take up space when the concepts aren't actually different.

[TheThan]

...people die in backstories all the time. Lovers, siblings, parents, friends, I remember once they even stretched it far enough to have someone devote their lives to hunting down their roommate's killer. To claim it's somehow extra bad because the character involved was gay is kind of ridiculous.

Hahah reminds me of this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THt6zThZEiM&feature=player_detailpage#t=91)

[Avilan the Grey]

I have been out of the loop for Marvel comics for a very long while, which is funny because Marvel was the first series of comics I consistently read, and stuff. I had a falling out when the trend of constant crossovers and combat crossovers started.

Now....I mean just. WOW. Im just stuttering at how bad it is. I mean. Its just ASTOUNDINGLY bad.

I thought DC was going through a Uber gritty time and constant universe bending . But this! This is just a Nuclear grit reactor powered by grit and darkness pumping full throttled grit through a heart of grit, going at a full throttle of edgy and dark, on a scale of supergrit the edgy, with the force of a thousand suns exploding at the speed of HARCORE!

Its not even depressing! Its just laughable!

How did things come to thsi?

The 90s were cool man. Or something.

[Jayngfet]

The 90s were cool man. Or something.

Honestly I'd probably take the 90's over this most days of the week. There was way more actually worth salvaging.

[Avilan the Grey]

Honestly I'd probably take the 90's over this most days of the week. There was way more actually worth salvaging.

Well, I still don't like Miller.
Or the drek that followed (mostly Image, but DC especially had to go dumb,as usual).

As for the Bi thing above. I was just thinking that... At the moment in Popular Culture it seems Bisexuals are getting a far shorter end of the stick than gays. It seems to me Bobby would have been a better "fit" to be "bi" but no, we must only be 100% one way or the other.

[Lord Raziere]

So I guess we can call this the Rust Age I guess? Iron age was all grit and guns and such, but somehow we were to supposed to come out of that and be in some Aluminum Age because everything is trying to get back to heroes being heroes but with less naivety, but instead the Iron Age just seems to be deteriorating into something even worse, which means that its now Rust?

[Psyren]

So this evidently happens more often than say, parents. Or the whole women in refrigerators thing. Or entire hometowns.

It's not a competition. It just has to pop up enough, otherwise unjustified, and it's a trope.


TV Tropes is kind of crap when it comes to this just because they try infinitely subdividing to take up space when the concepts aren't actually different.

Well when JayngfetTropes leaves that page out at least I'll know why, but the observation stands.

[Jayngfet]

It's not a competition. It just has to pop up enough, otherwise unjustified, and it's a trope.



Well when JayngfetTropes leaves that page out at least I'll know why, but the observation stands.

Well when you have an actual formal entry in an actual formal database I'll take it seriously. As opposed to a fan site that explicitly says it's none of those things.

Shouldn't be too hard. Cinematography and visual arts aren't exactly obscure ideas. In all the vast reserves of knowledge written on them there must be something similar to what you describe, if it's an actual thing and not just an outcropping of a far more established and variable convention as old as the sun.

[jere7my]

Well when you have an actual formal entry in an actual formal database I'll take it seriously. As opposed to a fan site that explicitly says it's none of those things.

Shouldn't be too hard. Cinematography and visual arts aren't exactly obscure ideas. In all the vast reserves of knowledge written on them there must be something similar to what you describe, if it's an actual thing and not just an outcropping of a far more established and variable convention as old as the sun.

This is not a controversial or obscure phenomenon. People have been talking about it for decades. Google [gay characters killed off] for plenty of major articles. E.g.: "Since Philadelphia there have been, by my count, 257 Academy Award-nominated portrayals of heterosexual characters, and 23 of gay, bisexual or transsexual characters. Of the heterosexual characters, 16.5% (59) die. Of the LGBT characters, 56.5% (13) die."

http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2013/jun/11/gay-characters-hollywood-films

As with many things, this is happily beginning to change, but even ten years ago a gay character who got to the end of the story alive and more or less happy was a vanishing minority.

[Jayngfet]

This is not a controversial or obscure phenomenon. People have been talking about it for decades. Google [gay characters killed off] for plenty of major articles. E.g.: "Since Philadelphia there have been, by my count, 257 Academy Award-nominated portrayals of heterosexual characters, and 23 of gay, bisexual or transsexual characters. Of the heterosexual characters, 16.5% (59) die. Of the LGBT characters, 56.5% (13) die."

http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2013/jun/11/gay-characters-hollywood-films

As with many things, this is happily beginning to change, but even ten years ago a gay character who got to the end of the story alive and more or less happy was a vanishing minority.

Of course this I'm more likely to treat with a bit more respect. Mainly because it gives actual hard numbers from a respected source.

Of course I'll still assert that the original example used isn't quite the same, given it's Alan Scott having the exact same issue as Kyle Rayner, but that's a specific thing. In terms of Bobby himself I'll also say that the idea that he's somehow been that way the whole time is patently ridiculous. A sales gimmick should be treated as such.

[Psyren]

Of course this I'm more likely to treat with a bit more respect. Mainly because it gives actual hard numbers from a respected source.

I like how you didn't actually say you respected it, just that you're "more likely to." Which by itself shows what the futility of my efforts would have been.

[Dragonus45]

Here is my new universal theory that I feel makes as much sense based on the logic used to defend this decision and I dare anyone to find evidence it is wrong, everyone in the marvel multiverse is gay. All of them, they only ever date the other sex for the sake of procration and to keep up the charade because the marvel multiverse is a ****ty place as it is they all fear everyone else knowing they are gay. The telepaths all know, but the mean homophobes so they keep their mouths shut so everyone suffers more. Wolverine, gay. Spiderman, Gay. Captain America, plowing Bucky every time they were off screen. This theory doesn't tinker with anyone sexuality - it tinkers with what people think it is.

[Psyren]

Here is my new universal theory that I feel makes as much sense based on the logic used to defend this decision and I dare anyone to find evidence it is wrong, everyone in the marvel multiverse is gay. All of them, they only ever date the other sex for the sake of procration and to keep up the charade because the marvel multiverse is a ****ty place as it is they all fear everyone else knowing they are gay. The telepaths all know, but the mean homophobes so they keep their mouths shut so everyone suffers more. Wolverine, gay. Spiderman, Gay. Captain America, plowing Bucky every time they were off screen. This theory doesn't tinker with anyone sexuality - it tinkers with what people think it is.

Dare accepted. This is pretty nonsensical when you compare Bobby's series of short-term flings (https://nerdist.com/for-lgbt-fans-of-x-men-iceman-coming-out-as-gay-has-been-a-long-time-coming/) to something like, say, Reed Richards and Sue Storm's relationship.

[Dragonus45]

Dare accepted. This is pretty nonsensical when you compare Bobby's series of short-term flings (https://nerdist.com/for-lgbt-fans-of-x-men-iceman-coming-out-as-gay-has-been-a-long-time-coming/) to something like, say, Reed Richards and Sue Storm's relationship.

They are just dedicated to the lie, Franklin was born from an experiment Reed did then brain washed everyone to remember Sue being pregnant.

[t209]

So trying to stay away from Sexuality topic being controversial,
So what Marvel franchise might be popular during each decade since I met a college student of 50 years old who used to be a fan of T'Challa and Avengers and Defenders Wars along with debate that stemmed from "why Mutants are discriminated but who got power from accidents were praised since I saw army of wifebeaters and Jingoists in anti-mutant army"?
- 80's and 90s'= X-Men (at least for non-comic reading fanbase an TV shows)
- Mid 2000's- Avengers, more so after the release of Avengers movie later on (maybe Avengers got off the hook in AvX since they got a movie deal and the X-Men did not).
- Current Marvel Cosmos came to prominence.
So anyone want to share opinions?

[TheThan]

So trying to stay away from Sexuality topic being controversial,
So what Marvel franchise might be popular during each decade since I met a college student of 50 years old who used to be a fan of T'Challa and Avengers and Defenders Wars along with debate that stemmed from "why Mutants are discriminated but who got power from accidents were praised since I saw army of wifebeaters and Jingoists in anti-mutant army"?
- 80's and 90s'= X-Men (at least for non-comic reading fanbase an TV shows)
- Mid 2000's- Avengers, more so after the release of Avengers movie later on (maybe Avengers got off the hook in AvX since they got a movie deal and the X-Men did not).
- Current Marvel Cosmos came to prominence.
So anyone want to share opinions?

It actually makes perfect sense.
TV and movies are more popular than comic books by a fair margin. So if a kid watches a comic book movie and says “That’s awesome I want to find out more” then he finds out they’re comic books he’s more likely to go and start reading those comics.

Now multiply that kid by a large number of kids and you get a boom in popularity and sales.

[t209]

It actually makes perfect sense.
TV and movies are more popular than comic books by a fair margin. So if a kid watches a comic book movie and says “That’s awesome I want to find out more” then he finds out they’re comic books he’s more likely to go and start reading those comics.

Now multiply that kid by a large number of kids and you get a boom in popularity and sales.
Well, I knew Kang the Conqueror from EMH too. Unfortunately, I didn't know Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were heroes (except the former until post-MDay) until I saw a poster with her and other Avengers.
Kinda sad that they cancelled Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Spectacular Spiderman for the current trash (though the latter might piss off Joe Q since Weisman said that he was going to hook up Mary Jane and Peter Parker that doesn't involve selling their marriage and unborn infant to the dark gods to save their aunt). Since Ultimate Spiderman had Peter and Mary Jane broke up as a child, I am sure that their marriage had been retconned in TV spinoffs too.
Then again, we haven't seen married Spiderman since Spiderman: The Animated Series in 90's (:smallfrown: Mary Jane's clone saga might be depressing after reading One More Day too).

[Logic]

Why are you convinced MJ was pregnant? I read that entire story line, and have yet to find reasonable evidence that she and Peter were expecting.

[t209]

Why are you convinced MJ was pregnant? I read that entire story line, and have yet to find reasonable evidence that she and Peter were expecting.
Wait, they aren't pregnant?
I kept hearing thing like "Spiderman aborted his baby daughter in the process when he sold his marriage to the devil!" and "sold his marriage and an unborn child".
I hope Joe Q didn't put that horrible story in Civil War movie, which stated that he will be a teenage white boy.

[Metahuman1]

Logic: You mean other then Mephisto pretending to be there future daughter for a bit and point blank telling the audience (And Peter and MJ.) she will never ever ever ever exist now cause of this deal?

Or the fact that there daughter has a loyal fanbase having had her own comic that ran for years prior to One More Day which was basically retconned into never having existed by One More Day?

I seem to recall it was also explicitly stated in one of the post OMD comics, I think it was Brand New Day, that MJ was pregnant at the time of the deal and the deal erased that.


Dragonus45: Your telling me your theory is that Captain America is a Pedophile? Are you kidding me with that? (And yes, by your exactly stated theory, as stated, Cap is banging a seriously under aged boy constantly, so yes, by your stated logic, that is EXACTLY what he would have to be.).


Jaynegfett: So, they announce Alan Scots Gay, and in the same issue, kill off his boyfriend, and then he's NEVER seen or heard doing anything else again that doesn't indicate he's not A-sexual after that same issue. And this doesn't sound like a tacky publicity stunt were the intent was to stir up controversy with out having to actually put up with a Gay character who's a major Super, not even in an alternate universe, to you? Really?

[Logic]

Wait, they aren't pregnant?
I kept hearing thing like "Spiderman aborted his baby daughter in the process when he sold his marriage to the devil!" and "sold his marriage and an unborn child".
I hope Joe Q didn't put that horrible story in Civil War movie, which stated that he will be a teenage white boy.

I think you were hearing some of the exceptional crazy fan theories. Yes, OMD was a terrible story. But there was nothing that led me to believe that Mary-Jane and Peter sold their marriage and an unborn child to save an octegenarian that didn't want to be saved.

[Metahuman1]

I think you were hearing some of the exceptional crazy fan theories. Yes, OMD was a terrible story. But there was nothing that led me to believe that Mary-Jane and Peter sold their marriage and an unborn child to save an octegenarian that didn't want to be saved.

Except for the above. They knew they were gonna have a daughter (so did Mephisto.), and she was gonna grow up to be a super. And so did the fans, cause we read the comics that very explicitly existed in the same universe and time line for years. And we are explicitly told that that will never, ever, ever, happen, by Mephisto. I grant it was really Joe Quesada telling the audience this through Mephisto just like his little message to everyone that reads comics and plays games and reads books and watches movies and TV was delivered too the audience from Joe Quesada through alternate universe Peter Parker earlier in the book.


So, yeah, Quesada just couldn't help but twist the knife into the fans and make sure that yeah, they aborted there unborn daughter.



Sorta like how in One Moment In Time he tried to go back and make it 100% on Mary Jane that OMD happened at all, as well as that it happened the way it did, with out exception.

[Reverent-One]

The Spider-girl comics were never part of the mainline 616 universe, they're from an alternate future spun off of a What-If comic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics_2).

[Logic]

Except for the above. They knew they were gonna have a daughter (so did Mephisto.), and she was gonna grow up to be a super. And so did the fans, cause we read the comics that very explicitly existed in the same universe and time line for years. And we are explicitly told that that will never, ever, ever, happen, by Mephisto. I grant it was really Joe Quesada telling the audience this through Mephisto just like his little message to everyone that reads comics and plays games and reads books and watches movies and TV was delivered too the audience from Joe Quesada through alternate universe Peter Parker earlier in the book.


So, yeah, Quesada just couldn't help but twist the knife into the fans and make sure that yeah, they aborted there unborn daughter.



Sorta like how in One Moment In Time he tried to go back and make it 100% on Mary Jane that OMD happened at all, as well as that it happened the way it did, with out exception.

When did they know they were going to have a daughter? - They simply didn't know. I don't remeber Mephisto even alluding to cancelling their future progeny.
When was Mary Jane pregnant? - Except during the Clone Saga, never in the mainstream 616.

Joey Q is a terrible Editor and writer, but a complete monster, he is not.

[Metahuman1]

When did they know they were going to have a daughter? - They simply didn't know. I don't remeber Mephisto even alluding to cancelling their future progeny.
When was Mary Jane pregnant? - Except during the Clone Saga, never in the mainstream 616.

Joey Q is a terrible Editor and writer, but a complete monster, he is not.

Except for the part were he turns back into the little girl right as the deals going into effect and telling them that this is the daughter they would have had and now never will have. Issue 4, somewhere in the middle to the second half.

[Logic]

Except for the part were he turns back into the little girl right as the deals going into effect and telling them that this is the daughter they would have had and now never will have. Issue 4, somewhere in the middle to the second half.

That doesn't mean that MJ was pregnant at that very moment. It was a possible future (which Mephisto was milking for his own sadist needs.) I think you are stretching the "abortion" term quite a bit. Especially since Mephisto is also a known liar.

[Metahuman1]

Except good old Joe Q has been adiment for coming up on a decade now that "Nope! Mephisto was totally straight with them the entire time!".




If One More Day was an isolated incident, I'd be willing to accept that it's Hyberbole. But it's not. It's just the most insulting incident. So, no, he get's no slack form me on that one.

[t209]

Too bad that they killed of Deadpool though. Otherwise, he would tell Spidergirl about that One More Day fiasco in Secret Wars.
I just want to see her face to the horror that her own dad did.

[Metahuman1]

Honestly, the idea of Deadpool and Spider-Girl double teaming Peter to beat the tar out of him sounds like a good step toward redeeming the character if were gonna do an actual reboot out of battle worlds and secret war/civil war 2.

[Jayngfet]

I like how you didn't actually say you respected it, just that you're "more likely to." Which by itself shows what the futility of my efforts would have been.

Wonderful. Given you've resorted to insulting me I'm not going to be broken up if you insult me.


Here is my new universal theory that I feel makes as much sense based on the logic used to defend this decision and I dare anyone to find evidence it is wrong, everyone in the marvel multiverse is gay. All of them, they only ever date the other sex for the sake of procration and to keep up the charade because the marvel multiverse is a ****ty place as it is they all fear everyone else knowing they are gay. The telepaths all know, but the mean homophobes so they keep their mouths shut so everyone suffers more. Wolverine, gay. Spiderman, Gay. Captain America, plowing Bucky every time they were off screen. This theory doesn't tinker with anyone sexuality - it tinkers with what people think it is.

This however is an idea I can get behind. Mainly because the sheer audacity of it makes it more entertaining than any comic published in decades. I would pay legit money to see this as an event.

[Metahuman1]

This however is an idea I can get behind. Mainly because the sheer audacity of it makes it more entertaining than any comic published in decades. I would pay legit money to see this as an event.

Um, did you over look the "As stated that theory makes Captain America a Canonical Pedophile?" point?

[Lethologica]

Um, did you over look the "As stated that theory makes Captain America a Canonical Pedophile?" point?
audacity ^
plausibility v

sounds like a win-win for jayngfet

[Dragonus45]

Dragonus45: Your telling me your theory is that Captain America is a Pedophile? Are you kidding me with that? (And yes, by your exactly stated theory, as stated, Cap is banging a seriously under aged boy constantly, so yes, by your stated logic, that is EXACTLY what he would have to be.).


Admittedly I was thinking of the versions where they are of similar age, but I guess by the logic presented for ice man then there is nothing saying he isn't a pedophile. He has never had a successful relationship with a woman his own age so he COULD be. But I do apologize for the implication it was unintentional.

Also as a huge Mayday fan I think you are being far to kind and restrained here. Joe Q screwed the pooch there baaaaad.

[Psyren]

Wonderful. Given you've resorted to insulting me I'm not going to be broken up if you insult me.

I'm rereading my post repeatedly and I'm not seeing the insult there. I was merely admitting that if Jere7my's solid citation of this phenomenon swayed you only that small amount, nothing I added would be likely to do any better. If that came off somehow insulting then I apologize.



Jaynegfett: So, they announce Alan Scots Gay, and in the same issue, kill off his boyfriend, and then he's NEVER seen or heard doing anything else again that doesn't indicate he's not A-sexual after that same issue. And this doesn't sound like a tacky publicity stunt were the intent was to stir up controversy with out having to actually put up with a Gay character who's a major Super, not even in an alternate universe, to you? Really?

Precisely - with Alan, who is perhaps the lowest GL on the totem pole, they can sweep this kind of thing under the rug. Iceman... much bigger deal, much more spotlight, and much harder to downplay going forward - much less reverse.


Except for the part were he turns back into the little girl right as the deals going into effect and telling them that this is the daughter they would have had and now never will have. Issue 4, somewhere in the middle to the second half.

On this point though, there's a million ways for them to weasel their way out if they truly want "Spider-Girl." Another daughter is born who grows up to be a super, and the original daughter from OMD ends up becoming a villain. Or we get a boy instead of a girl. Or a later writer simply decides "Mephisto was lying/talking out of his crimson posterior" and makes a spidergirl anyway.

[t209]

Seeing previews of Nova issue 30,
Glad that the story of finding Jesse Alexander is going to be over after trying to get him killed via bounty. Now explain where Rob is, how come he got Nova Force (wild winds of magic explanation?), or any mysteries behind Jesse. And some what ifs on what will happen if Deadpool or Spiderman got a Nova helmet?

[Metahuman1]

Dragonus45: Yeah, it carries a LOT of seriously unfortunate implications for a LOT of characters, including Cap. Probably not a thing that should be run with with out a LOT more fleshing out.


Psyren: I was actually referring to the fact that the comics handled it very badly and only touched it at all for a really tacky publicity stunt. And that that's the exact same thing there doing with Bobbie over at Marvel now. Except Marvel doesn't even have universe reset to excuse the initial act of doing it. They don't have to reverse it, all they have to do now is make maybe a token nod or two


Except that would remind fans that Spiderman and Mary Jane were a thing. And Quesada would sooner die in real life himself then let that happen. Hence why he REALLY does need to be both sacked and blacklisted form all future marvel everything for life.

[Thrudd]

Has anyone here actually read all new x-men issue 40? Not saying it isn't a publicity stunt or at least a blatent move to include more diversity among main characters (which isn't a bad thing). But they do address that adult iceman is not gay. Jean confirms she is aware of this, and it is a mystery and they have no explanation. And I doubt there will be time for one unless it happens during secret wars. But whatever is going on, the writer didn't completely ignore the history and continuity. Young bobby is gay and adult bobby isn't, through some weird fluke of interdimensional time travel.

This is a good sign also, for me at least, that these young x-men are going to be surviving the event, probably instead of their older counterparts. There would be no other reason to have such a reveal now, and also no reason to have that story arc where they get teleported to the ultimate universe and meet Miles Morales. I'm guessing they will be together again very soon, maybe even sharing a title.

[Jayngfet]

Has anyone here actually read all new x-men issue 40? Not saying it isn't a publicity stunt or at least a blatent move to include more diversity among main characters (which isn't a bad thing). But they do address that adult iceman is not gay. Jean confirms she is aware of this, and it is a mystery and they have no explanation. And I doubt there will be time for one unless it happens during secret wars. But whatever is going on, the writer didn't completely ignore the history and continuity. Young bobby is gay and adult bobby isn't, through some weird fluke of interdimensional time travel.

This is a good sign also, for me at least, that these young x-men are going to be surviving the event, probably instead of their older counterparts. There would be no other reason to have such a reveal now, and also no reason to have that story arc where they get teleported to the ultimate universe and meet Miles Morales. I'm guessing they will be together again very soon, maybe even sharing a title.

If nothing else this'll provide a good deal of amusement going forward. Either adult Iceman becomes gay at some point and people get pissed off(as they should. Say what you will about Alan Scott but giving him a dude in a refridgerator made him way less interesting than the old veteran he replaced), or he's only gay because a time wizard or something made it so, and people get pissed off(as they should. I legitimatley have no idea why there's such celebration of what's very clearly a publicity stunt. I'm legitimately confused as to who thinks this isn't a cash grab and that it's somehow a grand historic event).

[Thrudd]

If nothing else this'll provide a good deal of amusement going forward. Either adult Iceman becomes gay at some point and people get pissed off(as they should. Say what you will about Alan Scott but giving him a dude in a refridgerator made him way less interesting than the old veteran he replaced), or he's only gay because a time wizard or something made it so, and people get pissed off(as they should. I legitimatley have no idea why there's such celebration of what's very clearly a publicity stunt. I'm legitimately confused as to who thinks this isn't a cash grab and that it's somehow a grand historic event).

I'm guessing adult iceman isn't going to last through the secret wars. There will probably be no explanation of his sexuality, or not much of one. Young Bobby will be the only iceman going forward, and he'll be out of the closet.

I think the idea is that these young x-men, maybe by the very act of being brought through time, are different in some fundamental way from their adult counterparts. the message is, throughout the whole series, that the all new xmen are not going to turn out just like their adult counterparts, their fates are not determined. Everything about them is different now. Jean and Scott won't get involved, probably. Bobby is gay. Hank won't make the same mistakes his counterpart did, he won't turn blue. Angel has gained an extra level of power.

"Cash grab" seems an extreme way to phrase it. It's not as though such a thing is going to have a huge immediate impact. But yes, I'm sure it is an attempt to appeal to more people, who they hope will want to buy some comics, by representing situations and characters they might identify with. It's not like some historic event, there are already gay characters, now there is just one more that is slightly more visible.

[Jayngfet]

I'm guessing adult iceman isn't going to last through the secret wars. There will probably be no explanation of his sexuality, or not much of one. Young Bobby will be the only iceman going forward, and he'll be out of the closet.


...until a few years when some other writer decides he wants his iceman back just the way he wants it. Then they'll dust off the old Mephisto plot device and bobby will sell his gayness to save whatever's important to the plot at that juncture. Or something equally ridiculous. This is comic books, and comic books in an era where even a B tier character won't even stay dead for a full year.




"Cash grab" seems an extreme way to phrase it. It's not as though such a thing is going to have a huge immediate impact. But yes, I'm sure it is an attempt to appeal to more people, who they hope will want to buy some comics, by representing situations and characters they might identify with. It's not like some historic event, there are already gay characters, now there is just one more that is slightly more visible.

Cash grab is absolutely the proper term here.

I think the proper distinction must be made with situations such as this regarding intent. Call me cynical, and I probably am, but I presume at this point that literally any major or even mid tier change to any character above C List is done entirely to generate revenue at this point. If I'm recalling correctly the New 52 is a good example where they just haphazardly threw everything in the garbage with no planning for a quick sales gimmick. While Marvel and DC aren't always interchangeable the same principle applies across the board. Major events and stupid crap are more or less always to generate buzz and any intentions noble or otherwise are a distant, distant second.

If they wanted to "represent situations and characters they might identify with" then they could just use one of the gay X-Men already floating around in the aether of continuity. But that doesn't generate nearly so much buzz as say "FOUNDING X-MEN MEMBER OUTED AS HOMOSEXUAL!" does.

Which is kind of what a lot of people are focusing on. You can even see it with Psyren up there going "Hah! We got this one and he's WAY more notable than Alan Scott so he's better!" without any care for the writers involved or the character arcs they've gone through beyond the initial issues it was written into.

[Aotrs Commander]

This is comic books, and comic books in an era where even a B tier character won't even stay dead for a full year.

Tell that to Banshee (who has been around since long before the likes of Storm or Wolverine).

[t209]

Tell that to Banshee (who has been around since long before the likes of Storm or Wolverine).
I know he's scream alot but at least it kinda fit in with his name taken from an Irish ghost.

[Psyren]

Cash grab is absolutely the proper term here.

It's really not, no matter how many times you repeat it.



Which is kind of what a lot of people are focusing on. You can even see it with Psyren up there going "Hah! We got this one and he's WAY more notable than Alan Scott so he's better!" without any care for the writers involved or the character arcs they've gone through beyond the initial issues it was written into.

And which of his "character arcs" have any bearing on his sexuality? Would he have been less likely to have saved the world or beaten {villain} had he been portrayed as gay from the beginning?

The only thing it could possibly cast in a different light are his past relationships, not one of which had any substance until now, so it fits. So Psyren is up there saying the things Psyren is saying for good reason.

[Dragonus45]

Yea I can't think of any occasion a character would fail to save the world for being gay. So my theory still holds then.

[Devonix]

It's really not, no matter how many times you repeat it.



And which of his "character arcs" have any bearing on his sexuality? Would he have been less likely to have saved the world or beaten {villain} had he been portrayed as gay from the beginning?

The only thing it could possibly cast in a different light are his past relationships, not one of which had any substance until now, so it fits. So Psyren is up there saying the things Psyren is saying for good reason.

They may not have had substance to me, but they did to him, and to a lot of us fans who followed them and cared about his romantic health. This casts them in a far different light.

[Psyren]

They may not have had substance to me, but they did to him, and to a lot of us fans who followed them and cared about his romantic health. This casts them in a far different light.

If they truly mattered to his sexuality they would have endured/been meaningful, rather than cursorily ending. This is not subjective - it is literally what sexuality is all about.

At best you can say "well, the reason I thought his relationship with X didn't work out isn't the case anymore" - but ultimately the fact still remains, the relationship didn't work out. Thus, none of them are at odds with this reveal, not one.

[Dragonus45]

I'm just going to say that I find the idea that "his relationships didn't work out" as proof about him being gay is specious. By that logic literally any character who is currently single could be declared gay tomorrow and it would "make sense".

Honestly, you want to argue the need for representation I can see the point even is I disagree with it. But trying to find some way this actually makes sense from a writing or character perspective requires mental gymnastics I just cant get my head around.

[Lurkmoar]

Tell that to Banshee (who has been around since long before the likes of Storm or Wolverine).

C-List fodder, great for soaking up that killing blow to make the stakes seem real. Funnily enough, Wolverine was supposed to die way back when versus Thunderbird, but John Byrne wanted the Canadian to stick around...

Some comic deaths stick, some last for a long awhile, then there are lingerers who are out of action for a few years and those that pop back after a few months. I always got a chuckle out of some of the contortions that writers go with to justify various characters surviving fatal encounters, especially how they brought back Carnage after the Sentry tore him in half.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm just going to say that I find the idea that "his relationships didn't work out" as proof about him being gay is specious. By that logic literally any character who is currently single could be declared gay tomorrow and it would "make sense".

Honestly, you want to argue the need for representation I can see the point even is I disagree with it. But trying to find some way this actually makes sense from a writing or character perspective requires mental gymnastics I just cant get my head around.

How about the idea that a significant number of gay readers who struggled with coming to terms with things, or who knew people who struggled to come to terms with things, saw very clearly their own experiences being reflected in Bobby's string of out-with-a-wimper relationships?

Cause that was a large part of the point of that article I linked; That the exact pattern Bobby showed wasn't just not incompatible with him actually being gay, but was actually really, really indicative of it in a very relate-able way for people who had gone through similar things. I really can't get my head around the idea that this requires any kind of mental gymnastics. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

I'm just going to say that I find the idea that "his relationships didn't work out" as proof about him being gay is specious. By that logic literally any character who is currently single could be declared gay tomorrow and it would "make sense".

Exactly. You're starting to get it.

Hell, some of the ones in relationships could come out, or even realize they're bisexual. The entire point is that, if a character does not declare "I am straight" or "my gender matches what I was assigned at birth," the audience - and by extension society - assumes them to be straight and cisgendered, because those are seen as the "default." And that is precisely the kind of thinking/assuming that needs to change, so that reveals like this won't be a big deal anymore, in fiction and in life.


How about the idea that a significant number of gay readers who struggled with coming to terms with things, or who knew people who struggled to come to terms with things, saw very clearly their own experiences being reflected in Bobby's string of out-with-a-wimper relationships?

Cause that was a large part of the point of that article I linked; That the exact pattern Bobby showed wasn't just not incompatible with him actually being gay, but was actually really, really indicative of it in a very relate-able way for people who had gone through similar things. I really can't get my head around the idea that this requires any kind of mental gymnastics. :smallwink:

Precisely.

[Lethologica]

Having a series of wimpy relationships reduces the priors on Bobby being good with women. Whether it significantly raises the priors on Bobby being gay depends on whether the portrayal is of Bobby trying to convince himself he's attracted to women, or of Bobby trying to get with women he's genuinely attracted to and failing. Given where the discussion is, I'm going to guess the portrayal is ambiguous enough to be read either way. So, little net change.

[Jayngfet]

How about the idea that a significant number of gay readers who struggled with coming to terms with things, or who knew people who struggled to come to terms with things, saw very clearly their own experiences being reflected in Bobby's string of out-with-a-wimper relationships?

Cause that was a large part of the point of that article I linked; That the exact pattern Bobby showed wasn't just not incompatible with him actually being gay, but was actually really, really indicative of it in a very relate-able way for people who had gone through similar things. I really can't get my head around the idea that this requires any kind of mental gymnastics. :smallwink:

Except, you know, we can see his thoughts and have for like fifty years. Unless somehow every single time his subconscious was active from before the time split, and every single unconscious gesture he made, made no indication then suddenly he's just full blown-not-even-bi-homosexual then it's kind of a crappy job of it. It makes sense in real life or in visual media with no audience known thought processes but that's never been what comics are.

Likewise, don't you dare play the guilt card on gay readers. That's just trying to sweep the gymnastics of it aside. At the end of the day I legitimately don't care that much if you like this or not but one thing that I hate above all else is sleazy self justification. If a recent event done purely for publicity happens to be something you're into, go for it. If you want to convince me that somehow this is fixing one of the worlds woes, we have a problem.

[MCerberus]

I can see how the reveals would be seen as potentially an odd move, but I think it's not the big "Why?" here.
It's that marvel seems to be trying to enforce comic popularity to match the MCU, or rather, what's not in it. Killing off the FF. Death of Deadpool kicking off when the Deadpool movie production started looking good. (this may be a local problem or just the region's taste effecting stuff but) And not promoting X-Men, their long-time bread and butter for reasons.

[t209]

I can see how the reveals would be seen as potentially an odd move, but I think it's not the big "Why?" here.
It's that marvel seems to be trying to enforce comic popularity to match the MCU, or rather, what's not in it. Killing off the FF. Death of Deadpool kicking off when the Deadpool movie production started looking good. (this may be a local problem or just the region's taste effecting stuff but) And not promoting X-Men, their long-time bread and butter for reasons.
Now I understand my classmate's peeve at Marvel on trying to fit their comics line up with the movies. To be fair, X-Men would be better off not being in same universe as Avengers since 1) mutant racism doesn't make sense, 2) every storyline making Avengers look selfish (I mean Cap would be beating the heck out of Trask after discovering Genosha mutant extermination), 3) It ain't 90s when the non-comic reading public are familiar with X-Men and Avengers being obscure. But on the other hand, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver is on X-Men franchise.
But we can also blame the studios who owned it too (Fox didn't even used Skrulls, Badoons, and Starjammers for their movies).

[Avilan the Grey]

My problem I have with this is the same I had with Black!Heimdall in Thor and the new black Johnny Storm: It feels... like "So... Minorities! Sure! Let's roll a dice and pick a guy to change for no other reason".

Of course unlike the changing race, sexuality is easier. If you do it right. And I know it's not as easy as just "invent a new hero" because then you get a hero who's only personality is "He's Gay", or "he's the one with HIV" or "Token Minority" etc. The best way to do it is to just treat it as a non-issue and just let the information be self-evident. Like Cortez and Traynor in ME3 where there never is a big "OH I AM GAY" moment but the game just takes it for granted that the player character is okay with it and just goes "My husband died" and leave it like that, no huge fanfare or anything.


Of course comics have always had a bad record of things like this. Like depowering Wonder Woman in the name of Feminism (and all feminists hated it) or curing Barbara, hence robbing paraplegic children and teens of a huge role model. Oops.

[t209]

Of course comics have always had a bad record of things like this. Like depowering Wonder Woman in the name of Feminism (and all feminists hated it) or curing Barbara, hence robbing paraplegic children and teens of a huge role model. Oops.
Well, for Barbara, I have to feelings.
On one hand, the setting of DC had good prosthetic that was later used in New 52. But you can use that insurance doesn't cover it but I mean Supes call up his super scientists friends for it.
On the other, like you said.

[Tiki Snakes]

Except, you know, we can see his thoughts and have for like fifty years. Unless somehow every single time his subconscious was active from before the time split, and every single unconscious gesture he made, made no indication then suddenly he's just full blown-not-even-bi-homosexual then it's kind of a crappy job of it. It makes sense in real life or in visual media with no audience known thought processes but that's never been what comics are.

Likewise, don't you dare play the guilt card on gay readers. That's just trying to sweep the gymnastics of it aside. At the end of the day I legitimately don't care that much if you like this or not but one thing that I hate above all else is sleazy self justification. If a recent event done purely for publicity happens to be something you're into, go for it. If you want to convince me that somehow this is fixing one of the worlds woes, we have a problem.

I'm no expert on all of this, but the point is that the people who have been in, or know people who have been in the place that Marvel have revealed Bobby to be/have been in have been looking at what happened in those relationships and what he said and what he thought when we are aware of that and they've been saying "This! I recognise this! I went through this exact thing! Oh, Bobby..."

And they've apparently been doing it since the start of the internet at the latest. I'm just taking the line that, given they are the ones who have lived that situation, that they probably have some measure of expertise on the matter.

[Devonix]

My problem I have with this is the same I had with Black!Heimdall in Thor and the new black Johnny Storm: It feels... like "So... Minorities! Sure! Let's roll a dice and pick a guy to change for no other reason".

Of course unlike the changing race, sexuality is easier. If you do it right. And I know it's not as easy as just "invent a new hero" because then you get a hero who's only personality is "He's Gay", or "he's the one with HIV" or "Token Minority" etc. The best way to do it is to just treat it as a non-issue and just let the information be self-evident. Like Cortez and Traynor in ME3 where there never is a big "OH I AM GAY" moment but the game just takes it for granted that the player character is okay with it and just goes "My husband died" and leave it like that, no huge fanfare or anything.


Of course comics have always had a bad record of things like this. Like depowering Wonder Woman in the name of Feminism (and all feminists hated it) or curing Barbara, hence robbing paraplegic children and teens of a huge role model. Oops.


Ehh Black Heimdal never had a problem with, it's not like he ever even really showed up much in Thor books and only became relevant at large after the movie popularized the character. And unlike Johnny where his race is relevant because he's human Heimdal is Asgardian and him being black doesn't change anything in the slightest with how he relates to other Asgardians.

[t209]

On black Johnny Storm, my guess is that he is actually an Android based on Jim Hammond.

[Jayngfet]

Of course unlike the changing race, sexuality is easier. If you do it right. And I know it's not as easy as just "invent a new hero" because then you get a hero who's only personality is "He's Gay", or "he's the one with HIV" or "Token Minority" etc. The best way to do it is to just treat it as a non-issue and just let the information be self-evident. Like Cortez and Traynor in ME3 where there never is a big "OH I AM GAY" moment but the game just takes it for granted that the player character is okay with it and just goes "My husband died" and leave it like that, no huge fanfare or anything.


That... isn't really a great example. The thing about Bioware token minorities of any stripe is that at least in my experience they may start out looking reasonably complex but by the end of things they pretty much just boil down to being (the X). Hence Steve initially having lots of unique banter with one of your squadmates, but by the halfway mark he's known exclusively for crying loudly about his dead husband(and no, it wasn't "my husband is dead and leave it at that" it was "let me cry loud enough to fill the room and play it on the loudspeakers") and the forced "STEEEEEVE!" line. Or for a racial example look at Jacob. He starts out with one of the most involved and compelling backstories in his game, but the minute his sidequest comes up all of that gets junked and it becomes about how the token black guy has a missing daddy. Or Traynor, who does have a big "OH I AM GAY" moment, generally referred to as "her introduction", and pretty much the only related conversation she has is about the toothbrush.

This is kind of the big overarching thing that really grinds my gear about these kinds of things. People always point to super high profile examples of the phenomenon even if they're nowhere near the best executed examples of them. You can see it up there with, again, Psyren, crowing over which ones are the most high profile rather than well written and giving no indication he even cares about Earth 2 beyond which character is gay, and has pretty much abandoned it now that a shinier toy is out.

I mean god damn people, at least go for the good examples that have actual personality beyond that point. If you were going to use say Shining Knight(who has an actual character arc and serious motivations as an individual that don't relate to sexuality), or Arcade Ganon(Who can be comfortable and open with his sexuality, without it eventually dominating every interaction) then at least it'd be good examples.

Seriously, have some standards. Demand better, not more.

[Aotrs Commander]

On black Johnny Storm, my guess is that he is actually an Android based on Jim Hammond.

I think my issue with a black Johnny Storm is that it ought to mandate a black Sue Storm as well. (Or at least, non-cauasian, as it is my understanding that genetics says that while you will get some variation in skin colour between siblings from different-skin-coloured humans, that is a bit too wide.)

And hasn't, of course. (Unless my one brief viewing on the trailer is grossly misremembered.)

[Dragonus45]

That doesn't bother me as much, you can still find ways to explain it. I think adoption is a perfectly acceptable answer but if that one couple in real life could have kids that were different colors I can believe it happening in a comic book.

[Psyren]

Except, you know, we can see his thoughts and have for like fifty years. Unless somehow every single time his subconscious was active from before the time split, and every single unconscious gesture he made, made no indication then suddenly he's just full blown-not-even-bi-homosexual then it's kind of a crappy job of it. It makes sense in real life or in visual media with no audience known thought processes but that's never been what comics are.

Likewise, don't you dare play the guilt card on gay readers. That's just trying to sweep the gymnastics of it aside. At the end of the day I legitimately don't care that much if you like this or not but one thing that I hate above all else is sleazy self justification. If a recent event done purely for publicity happens to be something you're into, go for it. If you want to convince me that somehow this is fixing one of the worlds woes, we have a problem.

Whether you like it or not, a quality of the world we live in is that you can do something that has good effects and make money at the same time. The fact that you can personally profit in some way does not make a good thing stop being good.


My problem I have with this is the same I had with Black!Heimdall in Thor and the new black Johnny Storm: It feels... like "So... Minorities! Sure! Let's roll a dice and pick a guy to change for no other reason".

If "minorities need better representation" isn't reason enough for a given person, it's unlikely that any other one they come up with will satisfy either. So since they're going to piss people off either way, might as well do the courageous thing and run with it.

[t209]

I don't know but I heard from somewhere that Asgard had been destroyed after each cycle. That explanation was used as an excuse for Black!Heimdall and blonde Thor (though some painting showed him with blonde hair).
That or I am mistaking for Jack Kirby's original plan for New Gods, which might explain why Loki was evil since the early story was set in Ragnarok.

[Thialfi]

As a straight male, I don't exactly have the life experiences to know how a gay person should react to Iceman being gay, but it strikes me as kind of offensive.

Through some weird time travel shenaningans, their is a teenaged Ice Man and an Ice Man that's a decade or so older. We have just found out that the young Ice Man is gay, but the older Ice Man is not and the comic admits this right up front.

What's up with that? He's exactly the same person. What possible explanation could there be for this discrepancy other than they are saying that sexuality is a choice?

Did older Ice Man grow up in a time that was less accepting of alternate lifestyles and that somehow affected who he was attracted to? Again, I've never had to deal with anything like this, but I firmly believe that a person's sexual identity is hard wired from birth. The desire to procreate is a primal force of nature. The nurture side of this equation isn't going to change that. Negative social structures aren't going to do anything other than possibly instill a sense of self loathing.

Am I missing something? Are gay people just assuming that older Bobby just hasn't come to terms with who he is, when that really isn't what Marvel is saying?

[Psyren]

If they're really saying "adult Bobby is from the exact same continuity as young Bobby, and is definitely straight now" then I agree that's a problem, for the same reasons changing his sexuality back now that it is established within that continuity would be a problem. But I get the feeling that they know that - BMB would have to be awfully dumb not to - and so I'm willing to place my chips on they're setting up something else.

[Tiki Snakes]

As a straight male, I don't exactly have the life experiences to know how a gay person should react to Iceman being gay, but it strikes me as kind of offensive.

Through some weird time travel shenaningans, their is a teenaged Ice Man and an Ice Man that's a decade or so older. We have just found out that the young Ice Man is gay, but the older Ice Man is not and the comic admits this right up front.

What's up with that? He's exactly the same person. What possible explanation could there be for this discrepancy other than they are saying that sexuality is a choice?

Did older Ice Man grow up in a time that was less accepting of alternate lifestyles and that somehow affected who he was attracted to? Again, I've never had to deal with anything like this, but I firmly believe that a person's sexual identity is hard wired from birth. The desire to procreate is a primal force of nature. The nurture side of this equation isn't going to change that. Negative social structures aren't going to do anything other than possibly instill a sense of self loathing.

Am I missing something? Are gay people just assuming that older Bobby just hasn't come to terms with who he is, when that really isn't what Marvel is saying?

Well, going out on a limb here, but my take is that of course it's not a choice and of course it's essentially hard-wired. But this is the Iceman. A man whose powers of self-delusion are so strong that he was not-a-mutant for a while. He's spent his whole life burying this, locking it away and freezing his heart. Adult Iceman simply doesn't identify as Gay at all. Young Iceman can admit this to himself, here and now, but adult iceman can't. He's built his walls too high. That is the tragedy of Bobby Drake and I think it fits rather poetically. I believe this is exactly what Marvel are actually saying.

[Psyren]

^ Tying it to his similar denial of being a mutant would also be acceptable (as then it would literally have supernatural causes.) So I'd be okay with that too, as it implies that the gay version is the "real one," underneath.

In short, your sexuality is not in fact a choice, but denying it can be - for a time at least.

[Metahuman1]

I don't know but I heard from somewhere that Asgard had been destroyed after each cycle. That explanation was used as an excuse for Black!Heimdall and blonde Thor (though some painting showed him with blonde hair).
That or I am mistaking for Jack Kirby's original plan for New Gods, which might explain why Loki was evil since the early story was set in Ragnarok.

I think that actually was a thing with Thor, and it was a big part of how they justified his rather minimal personal involvement in things like Civil War and One More Day. Cause, other wise, he'd have just dropped his hammer on Stark and invited everyone to go party at Asgard till Iron Man's brain came back form vacation, and touched base with Valkery to get something worked out to save Aunt May (or else get Peter to make peace with her passing. Either way.).

And Quesada certainly couldn't have that.

[Logic]

I think that actually was a thing with Thor, and it was a big part of how they justified his rather minimal personal involvement in things like Civil War and One More Day. Cause, other wise, he'd have just dropped his hammer on Stark and invited everyone to go party at Asgard till Iron Man's brain came back form vacation, and touched base with Valkery to get something worked out to save Aunt May (or else get Peter to make peace with her passing. Either way.).

And Quesada certainly couldn't have that.

For Civil War, Thor was dead at the time, having recently experienced Ragnarok. "His" involvement in Civil War was as a nanite-infused clone that Killed Goliath (Bill Foster)

EDIT: Apparently the Clone was named Ragnarok, and Thor was too busy breaking the Ragnarok Cycle to involve himself with the Civil War story line.

[Thrudd]

Well, going out on a limb here, but my take is that of course it's not a choice and of course it's essentially hard-wired. But this is the Iceman. A man whose powers of self-delusion are so strong that he was not-a-mutant for a while. He's spent his whole life burying this, locking it away and freezing his heart. Adult Iceman simply doesn't identify as Gay at all. Young Iceman can admit this to himself, here and now, but adult iceman can't. He's built his walls too high. That is the tragedy of Bobby Drake and I think it fits rather poetically. I believe this is exactly what Marvel are actually saying.

It's hard to tell exactly what Bendis (through Jean) is implying by the short dialogue we get: "but my older self isn't. We've met him." "I know." "So..." "But you...are".

I really like your take on it, though,
I think it's likely that is what is implied.

I've also learned that it is pointless to try to resolve continuity issues over the course of decades, especially in regards to the conflicting inner monologues and thoughts every author has given these characters. The big events remain in the characters' memories, and occasionally they joke or make references to stuff that has changed about them. Ultimately, new writers are always going to change the characters in some way.
For example; Iron Fist: the Living Weapon has introduced the idea that after winning the tournament but before facing the dragon, potential Iron Fists had to fight a huge hulking champion called "The One", that almost always defeats/kills the competitor. This was never a thing in Iron Fist's origin story until now. It has also made his father appear to be an obsessed, raving lunatic at the time of his death, when previous stories describing that situation had no such thing. It also implies that his wife and his business partner are unaware the Kunlun even exists and thinks he's crazy, when the previous iron fist story (Immortal Iron Fist) showed us that his father was an orphan raised in Kunlun, and was one step away from becoming the iron fist himself, before he decided to leave. Does not seem like a guy who would become the raving madman risking the lives of his wife and child that the new series is implying. I like the new series, but you have to take it on its own, as the writer has reinterpreted his origins and added new elements to his past.

[Tiki Snakes]

If you really want to twist your brain in a knot, think about this particular facet of that exchange.

They reference the young characters time period as being one where you just couldn't be open even with yourself like you can today. They literally referenced the fact that their time period is the 60's/70's. Iceman is about ten years older than young Iceman. The comic is set in modern times.

Ten years ago, it was the sixties.

No wonder time and space are collapsing in a gigantic multiversal inferno. :smallwink:

[BRC]

If you really want to twist your brain in a knot, think about this particular facet of that exchange.

They reference the young characters time period as being one where you just couldn't be open even with yourself like you can today. They literally referenced the fact that their time period is the 60's/70's. Iceman is about ten years older than young Iceman. The comic is set in modern times.

Ten years ago, it was the sixties.

No wonder time and space are collapsing in a gigantic multiversal inferno. :smallwink:

Yeah, the sliding timescale works quite well so long as you don't think about it, ever.

[Metahuman1]

For Civil War, Thor was dead at the time, having recently experienced Ragnarok. "His" involvement in Civil War was as a nanite-infused clone that Killed Goliath (Bill Foster)

EDIT: Apparently the Clone was named Ragnarok, and Thor was too busy breaking the Ragnarok Cycle to involve himself with the Civil War story line.

My point exactly.

Also, he did get a bit involved in the fall out. Enough to make it flawlessly clear that if Ironman so much a though the words Asguardian and Registered or Registration in the same page of dialog for the rest of his life Thor would unleash horrors upon him no mortal could ever hope to comprehend, and make blatantly clear his utter contempt for Stark as of that point in time for what he'd been doing while Thor was off breaking said cycle.

[Thrudd]

If you really want to twist your brain in a knot, think about this particular facet of that exchange.

They reference the young characters time period as being one where you just couldn't be open even with yourself like you can today. They literally referenced the fact that their time period is the 60's/70's. Iceman is about ten years older than young Iceman. The comic is set in modern times.

Ten years ago, it was the sixties.

No wonder time and space are collapsing in a gigantic multiversal inferno. :smallwink:

Good point lol. Will it be any different when the multiverse is fixed? Probably not.

Of course, you could look at a different way. In the marvel universe, it is only the eighties, maybe, but their civilization has advanced to a similar point in technology and culture as ours is in 2015 because of the activities and exposure to heroes and super geniuses like Stark, Pym, Richards, etc. as well as alien civilizations, cosmic beings, AI and magic.

For those heroes, their lives are full of non-stop action and it just took us decades to relay all the stories that happened to them in a short period of time. I mean, a couple years worth of comic issues tells a story that might take place in the course of hours or days.

Their civilization just advances at an incredible rate compared to ours.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, the sliding timescale works quite well so long as you don't think about it, ever.

It seems to have worked out better on average than DC's poor grip on continuity requiring frequent universe-reboots to manage. But I would really like to see them phase it out, allow time to pass naturally. And all things considered, there's no better time than the present to introduce such a fundamental change.

Not that I expect them to, but I find the idea fascinating. It would have allowed a greater range of stories and left them with much easier ways of growing, retiring and replacing characters than they have under the current model, and it's not like it would be difficult to fudge around when required to bring back and/or renew characters.

[Thialfi]

I am not that familiar with the comics version of Ice Man. My experience comes from TV all the way back to my childhood with "Spiderman and His Amazing Friends" (yes, I'm old). The explanation above is plausible, but it makes me wonder where they will go with the character.

Comics do have quite the problem with the passage of time. Peter Parker has been a struggling young photographer/scientist since the early sixties. Magneto's origins are absolutely tied to the Holocaust which ended 70 years ago. That's a tough work around unless you are Sterling Archer who fights the KGB while talking on his cell phone.

[Tiki Snakes]

Magneto's origins are absolutely tied to the Holocaust which ended 70 years ago. That's a tough work around unless you are Sterling Archer who fights the KGB while talking on his cell phone.

Ironically, that's a great example of how easy it is to fudge around in the comics. In his first few appearances, Magneto was clearly older. At an early point, during some misadventures involving the Avengers I believe, he gets de-aged to a baby and/or shot into space or some such. (It was the 60's, after all). He seemed noticeably more vibrant and much less elderly when he re-emerged.

[Avilan the Grey]

If "minorities need better representation" isn't reason enough for a given person, it's unlikely that any other one they come up with will satisfy either. So since they're going to piss people off either way, might as well do the courageous thing and run with it.

I agree, but what really gets me is why they didn't make Sue black as well?

[Psyren]

I agree, but what really gets me is why they didn't make Sue black as well?

Apparently one of them (it might actually be Sue (http://schmoesknow.com/hot-scoop-new-fantastic-four-plot-details-revealed/29653/)) is adopted in this continuity.

[Avilan the Grey]

Apparently one of them (it might actually be Sue (http://schmoesknow.com/hot-scoop-new-fantastic-four-plot-details-revealed/29653/)) is adopted in this continuity.

Fair enough, but... why not have two black main characters, if you can?

[Metahuman1]

Fair enough, but... why not have two black main characters, if you can?

Probably for the same reason Reed Richards isn't made of rubber anymore. He completely warps space around himself instead.

[t209]

Fair enough, but... why not have two black main characters, if you can?
Awww, they just wasted potential to homage Jim Hammond human torch.

[Psyren]

Fair enough, but... why not have two black main characters, if you can?

Given all the stink being raised over just Johnny being black, I can't imagine what the backlash would be like if both of them were. Perhaps they could have done it anyway, who knows?

One possible scenario is that they were open to Human Torch being black (hence bringing MBJ in to audition in the first place) but it was only after his audition that they clinched it - he did so well that they simply decided to deal with any fallout that might result. It would be nice to think that they simply went with the best actors of the age they were looking for that they were budgeted to contract with, and were prepared to adjust the script as necessary if any of those suitable actors turned out to be a different race than their past portrayals. Merit being the only factor is unfortunately unlikely, but it's nice to think of.

[Metahuman1]

I just want this movie to under preform so that Fox will either let the rights to the franchise go back to Marvel, or agree to partner up with Marvel going forward.

[Kitten Champion]

Given all the stink being raised over just Johnny being black, I can't imagine what the backlash would be like if both of them were. Perhaps they could have done it anyway, who knows?

One possible scenario is that they were open to Human Torch being black (hence bringing MBJ in to audition in the first place) but it was only after his audition that they clinched it - he did so well that they simply decided to deal with any fallout that might result. It would be nice to think that they simply went with the best actors of the age they were looking for that they were budgeted to contract with, and were prepared to adjust the script as necessary if any of those suitable actors turned out to be a different race than their past portrayals. Merit being the only factor is unfortunately unlikely, but it's nice to think of.

Would Jordan actually have to audition at this point? I mean, he was in Trank's Chronicle so chances are they're familiar with his capabilities.

Also, yeah, judging by the recent trailer, Kate Mara's Sue is adopted into the Storm family. Which has potential for a different relationship between the two Storms, given that Johnny's scientist father adopted a girl who overshadows him intellectually, there might be more contentiousness in their dynamic. A "he was a disappointment to his father so he got the child he always wanted"-kind of complex.

[t209]

I just want this movie to under preform so that Fox will either let the rights to the franchise go back to Marvel, or agree to partner up with Marvel going forward.
Along with a good chunk of Marvel cosmos (Badoon, Skrulls, and Silver Surfer).

[Metahuman1]

Along with a good chunk of Marvel cosmos (Badoon, Skrulls, and Silver Surfer).

Galactus, Negative Zone, Dr. Doom (He count's damn it!), the list goes on. And hey, if it get's the X-men in there as well so we can stop having to tap dance around them and maybe have a universe were eventually people get OVER there fantastic Racisum (What A Twist!) all the better still.

[Thialfi]

Given all the stink being raised over just Johnny being black, I can't imagine what the backlash would be like if both of them were. Perhaps they could have done it anyway, who knows?

One possible scenario is that they were open to Human Torch being black (hence bringing MBJ in to audition in the first place) but it was only after his audition that they clinched it - he did so well that they simply decided to deal with any fallout that might result. It would be nice to think that they simply went with the best actors of the age they were looking for that they were budgeted to contract with, and were prepared to adjust the script as necessary if any of those suitable actors turned out to be a different race than their past portrayals. Merit being the only factor is unfortunately unlikely, but it's nice to think of.

I'm not a huge fan of altering existing characters to create diversity. I don't think it works really well. People identify with established characters and resent them being retconned. Marvel is doing it right with other characters, Kamala Khan is not Carol Danvers and Miles Morales is not Peter Parker. They are brand new characters and readers are taking to them in droves. I'm not sure how turning Falcon into Captain America is going, but having a woman take up the mantel of Thor while the old character is still around and active has put a charge into sales. Give people new characters that are interesting and diverse.

[Lurkmoar]

They are brand new characters and readers are taking to them in droves. I'm not sure how turning Falcon into Captain America is going, but having a woman take up the mantel of Thor while the old character is still around and active has put a charge into sales. Give people new characters that are interesting and diverse.

They could always try what they did with Sue Storm and make a current character more interesting. 1960s Sue Storm was kinda blah, but they expanded the scope of her abilities and now you could make a solid argument that she's easily the most powerful and versatile member of the Fantastic Four. They hyped up Spider-Woman(the Jessica Drew one) for a bit and made her an Avenger to show case her more.

[Psyren]

Galactus, Negative Zone, Dr. Doom (He count's damn it!), the list goes on. And hey, if it get's the X-men in there as well so we can stop having to tap dance around them and maybe have a universe were eventually people get OVER there fantastic Racisum (What A Twist!) all the better still.

I actually like that they don't have mutants back. It means they have to play up other aspects of the U, like the Inhumans, that might otherwise not have achieved any sort of prominence.

I would love to have seen Guardians of the Galaxy or even Avengers comic and merch sales figures before and after their respective movies catapulted them to the fore of the public consciousness. More diversity in the A-list lineup can only be a good thing.


I'm not a huge fan of altering existing characters to create diversity. I don't think it works really well. People identify with established characters and resent them being retconned. Marvel is doing it right with other characters, Kamala Khan is not Carol Danvers and Miles Morales is not Peter Parker. They are brand new characters and readers are taking to them in droves. I'm not sure how turning Falcon into Captain America is going, but having a woman take up the mantel of Thor while the old character is still around and active has put a charge into sales. Give people new characters that are interesting and diverse.

I think there's room for both approaches. Yes, Miles is a great character in and of himself, and donning the webslinger's outfit is a great way for his new character to get exposure that most new characters can only dream of. But the "alteration" approach has its merits too - it is a very direct way of conveying the message that race, gender and sexuality don't actually matter to most characters, at least not inherently. Obviously they can affect how those characters relate to society (and vice-versa), but a race-lift won't change the fact that hero X is heroic, and a gender flip won't change the fact that villain Y is villainous.

[turkishproverb]

Actually, I read a very interesting blog yesterday about how, as much as Iceman being both gay and firmly in the closet is a surprise from the perspective of straight readers, it's a bit of a "well, duh!" moment for gay readers. Apparently he's been sending off signals since pretty much day one. And that Marvel toyed with revealing him as gay previously in regular continuity, only kinda pulling back at the last minute without actually closing the door on it.

The blog suggested that having a character, a major X-Man character and one of the original line-up being gay and not being comfortable and accepting and out about it is actually a really, really good thing because that's something that so many people in the real world struggle with. An interesting viewpoint that hadn't occurred to me.

EDIT - Ah, here we go. (https://nerdist.com/for-lgbt-fans-of-x-men-iceman-coming-out-as-gay-has-been-a-long-time-coming/)
Just going to say that: A:That's not universal. I never saw Iceman as gay, though I sympathize with those who might've. I'm a reader who still thinks Tim Drake was in the closet.

But I never saw my sexual desires in Ice-Man once. Out of the classic 5, I think I suspected Angel more, if anyone. The 1602 reveal was fun that way for me.

And B: This feels more like a family Guy reference than well thought out. His INTERNAL MONOLOG and PSYCHICS read him as attracted to women for decades. Outing him as Bi would have been less of a massive continuity clusterjunk, though how much one cares about that debates a bit. The "You've just been afraid to admit it" thing doesn't really work from that perspective. I can see why people are bothered.


There is a panel I saw out of context in which she makes a joke about his real interest being in interior decorating or some such? I think she may have already gone there. (http://geeksout.org/sites/default/files/blog-images/Screen%20Shot%202015-04-20%20at%2010.48.23%20PM.png)

I forgot that scene. heh. Well, I suppose that helps with emma, though his internal monolog reading as liking girls is a bigger issue.

[Logic]

Just going to say that: A:That's not universal. I never saw Iceman as gay, though I sympathize with those who might've. I'm a reader who still thinks Tim Drake was in the closet.

But I never saw my sexual desires in Ice-Man once. Out of the classic 5, I think I suspected Angel more, if anyone. The 1602 reveal was fun that way for me.

And B: This feels more like a family Guy reference than well thought out. His INTERNAL MONOLOG and PSYCHICS read him as attracted to women for decades. Outing him as Bi would have been less of a massive continuity clusterjunk, though how much one cares about that debates a bit. The "You've just been afraid to admit it" thing doesn't really work from that perspective. I can see why people are bothered.



I forgot that scene. heh. Well, I suppose that helps with emma, though his internal monolog reading as liking girls is a bigger issue.

Actually, that makes so much sense. I had never thought about it until you mentioned it. Although, I get the feeling the Bruce Wayne and Richard Grayson could easily be written as bisexual. Jason Todd is the only one of the core Bat-family that to me reads "straight only."

[Aotrs Commander]

Apropros of nothing, and perhaps a depressing sign how far society has to go, to put our polite sexuality debates here into perspective for a moment... On the Pillars of Eternity forum, there is currently a raging debate (started by one gay player who commented how nice it was that one line of dialogue he could choose for his character when talking about his character's background was that he could say he was married either to a wife or a husband), there is one gentleman accusing the "gays and feminists" of running and ruining everything because the female characters in Dragon Age are not the supermodel, long-haired, busty fanservice that he personally finds attractive and demanding that there be some sort of toggle to hide all "gay content" so he doesn't have to see it.

Unless it involves lesbians, but only if they are attractive.

*sigh*

Yes, he actually did say that.

And this gentleman appears to all intents and purposes (given the amount he posts) to be actually genuine. (Or dedicated to his trolling to a nearly commendable extent.)

Fortunately, years of posting on this board have precluded me from posting a response there, suggesting that Dragon Age - and ESPECIALLY not Pillars of Eterntiy - are not really there to fulfill his mastabatory fantasies, but that there are plenty of places on the internet he could look for that...



In light of that, I do find myself going "well, in the grand scheme of things, does Ice Man or Johnny's race of sexuality REALLY matter that much too me?" And perhaps it does not.

[Psyren]

Aotrs: Whether someone that extreme is trolling or genuine is really besides the point. Either way they have nothing of value to contribute to a discussion and you're better off disregarding them.


Actually, that makes so much sense. I had never thought about it until you mentioned it. Although, I get the feeling the Bruce Wayne and Richard Grayson could easily be written as bisexual. Jason Todd is the only one of the core Bat-family that to me reads "straight only."

Great, more Ho-Yay between him and Slade, just what we needed :smalltongue:

[Jayngfet]

Given all the stink being raised over just Johnny being black, I can't imagine what the backlash would be like if both of them were. Perhaps they could have done it anyway, who knows?


Maybe you read something totally different from me, but most of the complaints were about only one being black and them being siblings. It was basically a huge contrivance that was seen as having a token character for the sake of having one.

Which is the entire problem with 90% of the things people take issue with. Race or gender swaps evidently for no visible reason other than adding a token. It doesn't help that the studio made a big stink about how they should totally be able to make Doom female for no real reason except they can, and that they eventually settled on what they did which wasn't that great either.

If an actor who's of a totally different race does their performance legitimately better than the others, that's a different story, Idris Elba delivers his lines pretty well so I'm able to overlook any issues originally taken, but that's not usually what happens.

[Psyren]

Maybe you read something totally different from me, but most of the complaints were about only one being black and them being siblings. It was basically a huge contrivance that was seen as having a token character for the sake of having one.

See, phrases like "huge contrivance" are what make me scratch my head. Them being blood relatives probably came up in a few stories in the comics, but it's not a core aspect of the characters themselves - it's not like their powers depend on a biological tie between each other. In fact, making none of them be blood-related actually carries a nice message in and of itself - they are one of the most famous families in all of comics, yet in this version they became a family not because of who shared a womb with who, but because they simply wanted to be one.

And that's the nice thing about this kind of representation - it benefits multiple groups simultaneously. You have talented minority actors who can be in something other than the next godawful Madea movie. You have another role model for boys and young men of color, and one more meager cosplay option out of the thousands that already exist for caucasian children. You have foster families being shown quite openly that, yes, their family matters as much as a biological/nuclear one, because oh look we can take an existing famous fictional family that once had biological ties, and change one of them to having been adopted without lessening the heroism or nobility of the characters involved in any way. And if the rumor I linked above is true, we even get the vanishingly rare circumstance of the minority family that adopts the white child - which does happen but is almost never shown on screen for various unfortunate and institutional/societal reasons.

So yeah, if a cosmically small change like this (not a "huge contrivance") can do so much good without in any way detracting from the woosh pow kerblam superhero wahey, I think that price of admission is pretty affordable, don't you?

[TeChameleon]

Honestly Psyren? I think that what you're saying sounds fantastic, I really do. I also think that the studio will bugger it up, because that's what Hollywood does. It's mind-staggeringly rare for an adaptation to be done well, even moreso for a superhero one. So if Movie!Johnny ends up as more than a token 'spin the wheel-o'-inclusiveness' character, I'll be thoroughly (and maybe even pleasantly) surprised.

As far as Heimdall went, my first reaction wasn't 'why is Heimdall black?' but more 'why are they casting Heimdall at all?' Most of the time, dude's barely been more than a prop in fifty years of Thor comics. Mind you, there was a certain amusement factor of them casting Elba as, of all the Asgardians, the one who the Poetic Eddas referred to as 'the whitest of the gods'. Still kinda wishing they'd included Balder instead, although Idris Elba's portrayal of Heimdall was, indeed, pretty badass. Then again, my biggest issues with the first Thor movie (visually, anyhow) were the near-total absence of awesome Kirbyhelmets and the fact that Hogun's epic moustache wasn't there.

And am I strange for wishing for a break from this fascination of who's doing what with their genitalia? I don't care if the character is screwing the opposite gender, their own gender, something in between, an inanimate object, or an Nth Dimensional life form that has evolved beyond our conceptions of gender, I'm tired of hearing about it so incessantly. I mean, yes, I know that it's an important part of the human condition, but it's hardly the only part.

Not that you'd know it from the popular media nowadays. Bleah.

[MCerberus]

Heimdall gave a good read. The creative team said it wasn't tokenism, and I believe the results.

On the X-Men side of things, it's just kind of odd that a gay character would be deemed out of place because the series is pretty much uses its roots in anti-discrimination motifs especially including LGBT parallels to the point where there are storylines that can't be talked about due to the forum ban on RL issues.

[Dragonus45]

Its not that a gay character is out of place, its that the character is not gay, then suddenly is gay after being straight for literally longer than I have been alive.

[t209]

So I want to share about Sam Alexander, half hispanic Nova.
I know many people will hate me but I kinda like this version better (I never knew Jaime Reyes' Blue Beetle, DC's counterpart except his parents are latinos, except on Young Justice). I mean he's way better than the one from Ultimate Spiderman (ironically made by Jeph Loeb, but I kinda feel that the comic as an improvement from the previous wreck Ultimatum). But time will tell if Richard Rider will come back as Nova Prime or at least explain why he was able to use Novaforce despite it being used up in Cancerverse (Novaforce spread out in universe? Rob Rider is alive and maintaining a new Xandarian computer? Novaforce sperm* from his dad?).
Or the ability to use part was a hidden arc related to Richard Rider or the Worldmind left at Knowhere.
*Yes, kinda like Spider-Island, one mention in Clone Saga, and Spiderman Reign.

[Jayngfet]

See, phrases like "huge contrivance" are what make me scratch my head. Them being blood relatives probably came up in a few stories in the comics, but it's not a core aspect of the characters themselves - it's not like their powers depend on a biological tie between each other. In fact, making none of them be blood-related actually carries a nice message in and of itself - they are one of the most famous families in all of comics, yet in this version they became a family not because of who shared a womb with who, but because they simply wanted to be one.

And that's the nice thing about this kind of representation - it benefits multiple groups simultaneously. You have talented minority actors who can be in something other than the next godawful Madea movie. You have another role model for boys and young men of color, and one more meager cosplay option out of the thousands that already exist for caucasian children. You have foster families being shown quite openly that, yes, their family matters as much as a biological/nuclear one, because oh look we can take an existing famous fictional family that once had biological ties, and change one of them to having been adopted without lessening the heroism or nobility of the characters involved in any way. And if the rumor I linked above is true, we even get the vanishingly rare circumstance of the minority family that adopts the white child - which does happen but is almost never shown on screen for various unfortunate and institutional/societal reasons.

So yeah, if a cosmically small change like this (not a "huge contrivance") can do so much good without in any way detracting from the woosh pow kerblam superhero wahey, I think that price of admission is pretty affordable, don't you?

Yeah, except you're kinda forgetting the point of there being a Fantastic Four movie. This isn't some directors brain child and it isn't some free creative expression. It's an adaptation of existing stories with existing themes and character ties. I honestly don't care about representation or who feels warm and fuzzy, you mess with the material without needing to and that's a recipe for disaster.

I give literally no craps about representation, minority issues, or anything else of the sort. That's not why movies exist and it's ridiculous to think that they should for that reason. If your idea of what a family is is so damned fragile that a summer blockbuster that's very clearly turning into a disaster will change it then it's not worth considering. Especially if your position of authority regarding family has to come from what's ultimately a panel of elderly executives looking to cash in a quick buck on other people's naivete.

Though they're not the only one. To reference this for a third time, in this very thread you outright said you don't care if the story is actually good or not, you just want something high profile to wave around shallowly, without a care for the product or characters involved. If that's your idea of representation I question why anyone would want any part of it.

[Scowling Dragon]

{scrubbed}

I then demand that every character in the Fantastic 4 Represent me. I am incredibly insecure. I am incapable with connecting with any form of character unless they actively mimic every aspect of my life in every possible way.

The second I see a character onscreen that does not mimic me, it must be because they hate me. Nothing to do with how comfortable they are with writing characters. Well its not about "Good Writing". Its about Representation. As we all know, movies and media have been part of the Wish Prophecy. We make media in hopes that the ancient god king Zorplax sees our media and the ones represented the most get a Wish. Ever since the Galactic wars, it has become an agreement that everybody is represented equally, to ensure that everybody gets an equal chance at a wish.

At least Im thankful that Zorplax isn't looking for quality or depth as much as skin-deep shallow stuff. Thats why when I look onscreen and see a character the least bit like me, I Instantly feel fulfilled and content and clap like a seal being fed a fish. "Arf Arf Arf- A person from my place of origin-ARF ARF ARF".

Or is it for diversity. To fuel our secret diversity powered spaceships to fight off the secret alien armadas (Who are also coming after our wishes). As we all know, everything is equal mush and applicable to everything like salt. Just add a bit of diversity and instant value. Its no about the diverse thing itself, and what it brings or even takes takes away. Nope. Its just like salt. Critical for the security and safety of the human species.

And best of all is politicization. Politics is where everybody finds meaningful and long lasting relationships. So if we politicize everything, then everything will be great. I wonder why nobody thought of this sooner?

[Psyren]

Honestly Psyren? I think that what you're saying sounds fantastic, I really do. I also think that the studio will bugger it up, because that's what Hollywood does. It's mind-staggeringly rare for an adaptation to be done well, even moreso for a superhero one. So if Movie!Johnny ends up as more than a token 'spin the wheel-o'-inclusiveness' character, I'll be thoroughly (and maybe even pleasantly) surprised.

I guess I'm an optimist at heart.


I give literally no craps about representation, minority issues, or anything else of the sort.

I'm shocked. :smalltongue:


I then demand that every character in the Fantastic 4 Represent me. I am incredibly insecure. I am incapable with connecting with any form of character unless they actively mimic every aspect of my life in every possible way.

This is a pretty clear strawman (in addition to just being rude), not that I expect any good-faith discussion judging by what you put into that quote box.

[MCerberus]

Focus grouping does tend to err on the side of the familiar due to risk-adversity. However, the current crop of comic movies have shown that with good enough writing, you'd be surprised what you can identify with, even Vin Diesel.

[Lethologica]

Yeah, except you're kinda forgetting the point of there being a Fantastic Four movie. This isn't some directors brain child and it isn't some free creative expression. It's an adaptation of existing stories with existing themes and character ties. I honestly don't care about representation or who feels warm and fuzzy, you mess with the material without needing to and that's a recipe for disaster.

I give literally no craps about representation, minority issues, or anything else of the sort. That's not why movies exist and it's ridiculous to think that they should for that reason. If your idea of what a family is is so damned fragile that a summer blockbuster that's very clearly turning into a disaster will change it then it's not worth considering. Especially if your position of authority regarding family has to come from what's ultimately a panel of elderly executives looking to cash in a quick buck on other people's naivete.

Though they're not the only one. To reference this for a third time, in this very thread you outright said you don't care if the story is actually good or not, you just want something high profile to wave around shallowly, without a care for the product or characters involved. If that's your idea of representation I question why anyone would want any part of it.
This works fine until you realize you're talking about a universe of comic Eternal Icons and you can't just keep telling the same stories over and over. Once you've matured (i.e. played out) your universe, there isn't much to do with your mature (i.e. stale) characters except AU fanfic. That often includes updating the characters to fit new social norms--and "What if <character> were <identity>?" is already a common theme in fanfic.

Once you commit to "not messing with the material," your universe has an expiration date as far as new writing is concerned, and you have to periodically throw out all the material and start over. If you don't make that commitment, "unless you need to" might as well be "unless you feel like it" as far as I'm concerned--there's no such thing as an objective evaluation of what "needs" changing.

Frozen is (cynically) AU fanfic of The Snow Queen. Did pretty well. There's about as much connection between 2015 Iceman and the original, whatever his sexuality. All the pretensions at continuity are so much ornamentation, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Jayngfet]

This works fine until you realize you're talking about a universe of comic Eternal Icons and you can't just keep telling the same stories over and over. Once you've matured (i.e. played out) your universe, there isn't much to do with your mature (i.e. stale) characters except AU fanfic. That often includes updating the characters to fit new social norms--and "What if <character> were <identity>?" is already a common theme in fanfic.

Generally speaking that means that you need to give performances that aren't critically panned and don't barely make money first. That's not the case for the fantastic four. Additionally, fanfiction is entirely irrelevant and how it treats character identity just as much so.

[Scowling Dragon]

OK then, what is it then Psyren? Cause the impression I get from you is that you just don't care. You don't care about a medias themes, or characters or plot, or anything. Just skin deep impressions. For supporting people because people will shrivel into dead husks unless they see representations of skin deep bull**** of themselves onscreen.

The Fantastic Four is about Family, thats why I found it so relatable (Despite not being exactly like me). Because Family is different from "Now as a bunch of unrelated people we come together like a family" family. Who we are born in terms of relationships IS different. We can never escape our family like we can a bad friend or relationship. It matters allot, and its been the core of the Fantastic Four for years now...Well until Grimdedgy comes in and Reed Richards has his once a decade "Im evil" blip, which this thread was originally was about!

{scrubbed}

[Psyren]

I'm posting about this topic because I do care. And the fact that you think adopted family needs to be portrayed drastically differently from biological family is telling. Family is family.

If thinking representation is something we need more of makes me a "moral guardian of the universe," well, so be it. All I can say is that I'm glad at least some of the folks in charge of these decisions feel the same way, whatever their detractors may shout back at them.

[turkishproverb]

Actually, that makes so much sense. I had never thought about it until you mentioned it. Although, I get the feeling the Bruce Wayne and Richard Grayson could easily be written as bisexual. Jason Todd is the only one of the core Bat-family that to me reads "straight only."

Well, Drake's origin just always screamed "Closeted kid" to me. Never really thought about Wayne on that spectrum, and Mr. The Censor Bar will Take my name Grayson is...well...look at him. Hard to be objective. :smallredface:

Ironically, I think a few writers implied Todd canonically did some "things" with guys when he was younger and on the street, though that hardly says anything about his orientation.


Great, more Ho-Yay between him and Slade, just what we needed :smalltongue:

:smalltongue:

[Jayngfet]

Family is family.

It really isn't. Every single family is different and the devil is in the difference. It's kind of an objective fact that race, income, adoption, size, and orientation all play huge factors in how families develop and their relationships to each other. To think otherwise is a fantasy and I can probably throw statistics at you all day to back that up if I need to.

Claiming there's some single indivisible unit of elemental "family" you can just subdivide into no matter what bits you throw in is kind of crazy.

[Psyren]

It really isn't. Every single family is different and the devil is in the difference. It's kind of an objective fact that race, income, adoption, size, and orientation all play huge factors in how families develop and their relationships to each other. To think otherwise is a fantasy and I can probably throw statistics at you all day to back that up if I need to.

Claiming there's some single indivisible unit of elemental "family" you can just subdivide into no matter what bits you throw in is kind of crazy.

Individual families are indeed different, but "this one is adopted so they can't be the Fantastic Four" is the true crazy here.

[Jayngfet]

Individual families are indeed different, but "this one is adopted so they can't be the Fantastic Four" is the true crazy here.

Half of them aren't even related. But acting as if one being adopted somehow makes the story better is an even truer crazy.

[Scowling Dragon]

{scrubbed}

[Dragonus45]

I find the idea that the simple addition of a black or gay character is making the story better be default to be a bit part of what is bothering me about all this in the first place, and a huge bit of what pissed me off with Korra. It leads to writers throwing out token this and that everywhere you look because they are to lazy to bother with real fleshed out characters. Why bother dealing with all the effort it takes to make a new and original character with his own wants or needs and his own backstory and life events when you can just slap "GAY" on iceman like a big sticker and move on. Representation is barely a worthy goal to begin with and nothing that comes of moves this dimwitted and controversial is going to help at all.

[t209]

Half of them aren't even related. But acting as if one being adopted somehow makes the story better is an even truer crazy.
That depends if Mr. Fantastic decided to marry Sue Storm and take in Ben Grimm (shown as scrawny brit rather than a strong jew, which I remembered one point that he was based on Jack Kirby) as a family member.
Maybe they won't make a crossover with X-Men but possibly laid a foundation to it.
Too bad that both of them have pretty good Marvel Cosmos, which Fox didn't bother to use.

[Jayngfet]

That depends if Mr. Fantastic decided to marry Sue Storm and take in Ben Grimm (shown as scrawny brit rather than a strong jew, which I remembered one point that he was based on Jack Kirby) as a family member.
Maybe they won't make a crossover with X-Men but possibly laid a foundation to it.
Too bad that both of them have pretty good Marvel Cosmos, which Fox didn't bother to use.

Which is really another case for adaptation instead of reimagining. I'd rather see Skrull or Shi'ar stuff than just making the characters different in appearance only. Those two properties have with them the bulk of good cosmic marvel elements. Guardians of the Galaxy was fun but it was notably stunted by the fact that it was missing the vast cosmic empires Marvel wasn't allowed to use.

[Lethologica]

Generally speaking that means that you need to give performances that aren't critically panned and don't barely make money first.
The antecedent of "that" is unclear--and so is the argument, as it's always better to give good performances than bad ones. It's not extra good to give good performances before changing something, if that's what you were going for. So saying that the previous performance was bad isn't an argument against changing things. (If anything, intuition would suggest the opposite, but I won't bother arguing that because it's unnecessary and speculative.)


Additionally, fanfiction is entirely irrelevant and how it treats character identity just as much so.
Then we might as well stop talking, because DC/Marvel's core business for decades has been either rewriting the same stories with the same characters or paying people to write glorified AU fanfiction with those characters. If that's a loss in your eyes, then the issue goes way deeper than, and has little to do with, Iceman's sexuality.

[Jayngfet]

Then we might as well stop talking, because DC/Marvel's core business for decades has been either rewriting the same stories with the same characters or paying people to write glorified AU fanfiction with those characters. If that's a loss in your eyes, then the issue goes way deeper than, and has little to do with, Iceman's sexuality.

Hey, I made it clear I quit it with them and what they were doing currently years ago. I put my money where my mouth is and stopped it circulating within the industry. The industry has many issues it needs to tackle.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't mind adaptations. I DO reserve the right to not care about them though.
And the more changes that are done because of things like "creative vision", "representation"*, "Edginess", "COOL" the less I will like it.

*Yes, I understand the need for representation. No, I don't think the entertainment industry gets it right more than 5% of the time.

[Psyren]

Half of them aren't even related. But acting as if one being adopted somehow makes the story better is an even truer crazy.

When it shows that the family with adopted kids can be just as "super" as the one with biological ones? Yes, that's a step forward.


I only recommend you also campaign for every viewpoint, culture, race, skin, sexuality, gender, disorder, and position in life as well. They need representation as well.

http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon.png


Representation is barely a worthy goal to begin with

All I can really say here is that again, I'm glad the people with the power to make decisions like these increasingly don't feel this way.

[Sith_Happens]

Fine then Psyren. I then disagree with you on a basic Human level. I believe you value all the most superficial things in life and see yourself as a guardian above other people, which in my book leads only to worse paths. The sort of stuff heroes shout before they take over the planet under an iron fist.

Nothing will get resolved from our conversation, so Il just leave it there. I only recommend you also campaign for every viewpoint, culture, race, skin, sexuality, gender, disorder, and position in life as well. They need representation as well.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141012013530/wingsoffirefanon/images/c/c2/Alrighty_then.jpg

[Dragonus45]

All I can really say here is that again, I'm glad the people with the power to make decisions like these increasingly don't feel this way.

Well as one of the people being "represented" I think the people making those decisions need a foot up their ass. I don't need to see someone like me in media so badly as to be able or willing to overlook low quality shoddy writing or blatant and insulting tokening. All that leads to is **** that is barely worth reading and bad feeling all around. What I want is them to commit to bothering with it, I want them to write a new character or bother to give some attention to existing ones instead of slapping a sticker on ice man and moving on. Or hell I could live with them making him bi, I would even appreciate it if it were done right and it would certainly be easier to make palatable if done wrongly, but this. If your excuse for this sorry sack of failure is that "representation" somehow makes it worth i than rethink who you are representing yourself.

As for representation itself. I have never once in my entire life felt left out because tv and movies failed to meet some minumum boy boy makeout quota. The fact that most characters are straight is not some slight or erasure of my existence.

[Scowling Dragon]

{scrubbed}

Exactly. So gets-a campaigning! Seriously! Are you saying that people who suffer horrible maladies in life don't deserve representation?
Your point didn't go over my head. Im just using the logic you present.
How about we make a massive list, and the most suffering people go to the top.

Like lets say lets start with the most miserable and oppressed individual on the planet, and then we go down the list.

We will start out with Starving South African, paraplegic, blind, transgender, multi-racial, orphan children, and then go from there.

So gets-a campaigning. Like Im saying. Make sure to do so.

[Avilan the Grey]

All I can really say here is that again, I'm glad the people with the power to make decisions like these increasingly don't feel this way.

I agree, but then there is a difference between Representation and representation.
There is a point, though, in what you replied to. Representation in media is important, but it tend to also exclude others, as we have discussed up thread:
Curing Barbara? There was a huge group that still remember Barbara as the True Batgirl and DC finally decided to pander to them, removing 20 years of character growth for one of the most beloved paraplegic characters in fiction period. For example. Again.

[Jayngfet]

When it shows that the family with adopted kids can be just as "super" as the one with biological ones? Yes, that's a step forward.


Well bully for adopted kids then. They can just go enjoy heroes that were already adopted. Like Jade and Obsidian.

Or you know, they would be able to, if those characters didn't get erased because their dad is retroactively gay and can't conceive them. Which you indicated you were so proud of yourself for enjoying and damn any consequences. You don't give a damn about what happens to adopted children and certainly not above people who happen to look exactly like you. You said as much outright, and right here in thread. The only reason you're bringing them up now, and I mean only reason, is because they loop back into the argument you're using as a shield over this.

Next time hide behind a demographic you didn't sell up the creek already.


Well as one of the people being "represented" I think the people making those decisions need a foot up their ass. I don't need to see someone like me in media so badly as to be able or willing to overlook low quality shoddy writing or blatant and insulting tokening. All that leads to is **** that is barely worth reading and bad feeling all around. What I want is them to commit to bothering with it, I want them to write a new character or bother to give some attention to existing ones instead of slapping a sticker on ice man and moving on. Or hell I could live with them making him bi, I would even appreciate it if it were done right and it would certainly be easier to make palatable if done wrongly, but this. If your excuse for this sorry sack of failure is that "representation" somehow makes it worth i than rethink who you are representing yourself.

As for representation itself. I have never once in my entire life felt left out because tv and movies failed to meet some minumum boy boy makeout quota. The fact that most characters are straight is not some slight or erasure of my existence.

Thank you!

I swear to god in both real life and fiction people keep telling me I should for whatever reason form a shield for whatever thing is under criticism because I hold some vague resemblance to it. Half the time I'd much rather be on the front lines tearing it down because anyone who needs that shield doesn't deserve it. If you try to play the identity game you should lose on your first turn.

[Psyren]

Or you know, they would be able to, if those characters didn't get erased because their dad is retroactively gay and can't conceive them.

Being gay doesn't make you unable to conceive.

For the rest... well, I gather we're at an impasse so I'll leave it at that. Dragonus and Scowling, good eve to you as well.

[Jayngfet]

Being gay doesn't make you unable to conceive.


No but having your entire backstory changed to make it happen does.

An impasse also suggests that you've done any convincing or have equal rhetorical force to bare. This clearly isn't the case.

[Kitten Champion]

While this wasn't my argument, I do feel the urge to get in a petty last word to prove my victory over the internet.

So, here it is...


Cantaloupes.

[Psyren]

While this wasn't my argument, I do feel the urge to get in a petty last word to prove my victory over the internet.

So, here it is...


Cantaloupes.

Cantaloupe; I'm getting married. :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]


[Snip]

I have no idea what posts you think you're responding to, because the ones saying any of the things you're arguing against don't exist. Seriously, you're not even attacking straw men here, you're throwing rocks at hay bales while screaming at them to get off your lawn. Even though they're not anywhere near your lawn, matter of fact they're not even in your neighborhood.:smallconfused:

[Scowling Dragon]

{scrubbed}

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I merely extended your logic to its logical conclusion.

Its akin if A Said:
We should paint the bathroom red because red is always better.

Then B said:
Then lets paint the whole house red!

A:
That's such a strawman!

But OK.

[Sith_Happens]

Its akin if A Said:
We should paint the bathroom red because red is always better.

This part's the straw man. All that Psyren has been saying so far is that a few particular bathrooms that have already been painted red look better for it.

[Tyndmyr]

Then we might as well stop talking, because DC/Marvel's core business for decades has been either rewriting the same stories with the same characters or paying people to write glorified AU fanfiction with those characters. If that's a loss in your eyes, then the issue goes way deeper than, and has little to do with, Iceman's sexuality.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold. I can't be bothered to go read girl thor comics, because I know it's a play for ratings, and everything will end up back at the status quo, with the usual Thor and what not. I've seen roughly a million of these shake-ups, and I know the formula. The fact that they use minority representation instead of character deaths or retcons impresses me not at all.

And that seems like a valid thing to talk about when discussing comics. Yes, Marvel and DC have both done this. But you don't HAVE to do this. Walking Dead is huge, and it's not this. Irredeemable is glorious, and it wasn't this. Watchmen was glorious...but you get where I'm going with this.

Comics don't HAVE to be the same publicity stunt, reset, recycle the origin story everyone knows cycle over and over again. When it comes to character growth vs recognizably consistent chars...DC and marvel tend to ruin BOTH those things.

[Lethologica]

That seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold. I can't be bothered to go read girl thor comics, because I know it's a play for ratings, and everything will end up back at the status quo, with the usual Thor and what not. I've seen roughly a million of these shake-ups, and I know the formula. The fact that they use minority representation instead of character deaths or retcons impresses me not at all.

And that seems like a valid thing to talk about when discussing comics. Yes, Marvel and DC have both done this. But you don't HAVE to do this. Walking Dead is huge, and it's not this. Irredeemable is glorious, and it wasn't this. Watchmen was glorious...but you get where I'm going with this.

Comics don't HAVE to be the same publicity stunt, reset, recycle the origin story everyone knows cycle over and over again. When it comes to character growth vs recognizably consistent chars...DC and marvel tend to ruin BOTH those things.

Sure. But then the complaint is about eternal characters, not diversity as a money grab, and should be rephrased accordingly.

[Tiki Snakes]

That seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold. I can't be bothered to go read girl thor comics, because I know it's a play for ratings, and everything will end up back at the status quo, with the usual Thor and what not. I've seen roughly a million of these shake-ups, and I know the formula.

Now, I'm no expert and this is just a thought, but try looking at it this way.
What do you think happens if the switch to Girl-Thor doubles the readership? What if that readership, instead of tailing off as the novelty dissipates, instead grows steadily over time.

Now, this is just a hypothetical, but what do you think happens as they near the pre-planned reset point on a thing like this, in that situation? Do you think they go ahead with it anyway, drop things back to the way they were and risk losing all those new readers? All that new money? Or do you think they are more likely to run with it?

I dunno. I think there's a degree to which there's a very simple reason that these kind of changes don't stick and that's it's probably the simplest and most straight forward reason; The new angles simply didn't do well enough to stick around. It's like in wrestling, many people get a chance to go out there and be the next big thing, but if the crowd don't embrace them then that's it, they aren't the next big thing. It doesn't matter if you're technically excellent, a master of ring-psychology or any of that. If you don't put bums in seats and you don't sell T-Shirts, you'll not get the push you might otherwise feel you deserve.

[Metahuman1]

Now, I'm no expert and this is just a thought, but try looking at it this way.
What do you think happens if the switch to Girl-Thor doubles the readership? What if that readership, instead of tailing off as the novelty dissipates, instead grows steadily over time.

Now, this is just a hypothetical, but what do you think happens as they near the pre-planned reset point on a thing like this, in that situation? Do you think they go ahead with it anyway, drop things back to the way they were and risk losing all those new readers? All that new money? Or do you think they are more likely to run with it?

I dunno. I think there's a degree to which there's a very simple reason that these kind of changes don't stick and that's it's probably the simplest and most straight forward reason; The new angles simply didn't do well enough to stick around. It's like in wrestling, many people get a chance to go out there and be the next big thing, but if the crowd don't embrace them then that's it, they aren't the next big thing. It doesn't matter if you're technically excellent, a master of ring-psychology or any of that. If you don't put bums in seats and you don't sell T-Shirts, you'll not get the push you might otherwise feel you deserve.

Except for the fact that Geoff Johns and Joe Quesada have made it spectacularly clear that no, actually, it doesn't matter, everything stays the way it was when they were just fans buying it off shelves, period, no matter what and in the face of all logic and sense even if the characters must be destroyed to make it happen.

[Jayngfet]

Except for the fact that Geoff Johns and Joe Quesada have made it spectacularly clear that no, actually, it doesn't matter, everything stays the way it was when they were just fans buying it off shelves, period, no matter what and in the face of all logic and sense even if the characters must be destroyed to make it happen.

Not even that. It's more akin to some kind of bizarre fantasy version of when they were fans that ignores what actually happened then in favor of their ridiculous theories. Back when Johns was just a fanboy writing letters he was told explicitly by superboys current writers that Lex Luthor had nothing to do with Superboy, but he ignored that when it was his turn. Which is indicative of everything he did with Lantern and Flash. It's his fanfiction brought to life and nothing else.

Which is a really good argument for never letting fans influence material. They'll destroy the creator or previous teams entire vision to "fix" previous problems that didn't exist while ignoring any idea of advancement because it makes them uncomfortable. I mean look at Arrow. The first two seasons steadily got better. But then season 3 came up and suddenly they were listening to shippers on who should date whom and who should get a bigger role and this is easily the worst the show has ever been.


This part's the straw man. All that Psyren has been saying so far is that a few particular bathrooms that have already been painted red look better for it.

No, he said "it's better red, and several totally hypothetical groups agree with me. It doesn't matter if I made it clear I don't care about them, or if the people disagreeing with me are actually in those groups, what I say is best".

[Scowling Dragon]

This part's the straw man. All that Psyren has been saying so far is that a few particular bathrooms that have already been painted red look better for it.

You miss the point of my logic.

Psyren's point was that groups that are in more trouble, demand more immediate reactions and "Representation". Akin to them being a house on fire. Unless that is not what he meant by the clever comic.

So my point was then if thats the case lets expand that logic to finding the most troubled person in the universe ala this:

http://smbc-comics.com/comics/20110722.gif


And then work backwards from there to "represent" them.

=====

"Representation" is a character assassinator. Nothing DESTROYS a character then being "Representation".

Because no matter how hard you try to write a character, no matter how much effort you put in, if your putting them in to represent a demographic the back of your mind will never be comfortable. And if your not comfortable writing a character you will never write them well. And Politics make everybody feel uncomfortable. So even FROM a "Representation" standpoint, you will see less """Diverse""", characters when people worry about representation then if they don't have to worry about every action a character makes as a political statement.

Thats why "Representative" characters almost NEVER take off.

And if characters are changed for the sake of "Diversity" rather then "Representation", then its a case that it could only possibly be tokenism. Because if your not making the character specifically for the archetypical traits, then its a skin change, which is once again not "Diverse".

I feel sick just laying that out.

[Sith_Happens]

It's his fanfiction brought to life and nothing else.

Isn't that what all mainstream comic book writing has been for the past 30-40 years?


No, he said "it's better red, and several totally hypothetical groups agree with me. It doesn't matter if I made it clear I don't care about them, or if the people disagreeing with me are actually in those groups, what I say is best".

Except you're either imagining everything after "it's better red" or bringing in baggage from some other thread I haven't read without saying so.


See, phrases like "huge contrivance" are what make me scratch my head. Them being blood relatives probably came up in a few stories in the comics, but it's not a core aspect of the characters themselves - it's not like their powers depend on a biological tie between each other. In fact, making none of them be blood-related actually carries a nice message in and of itself - they are one of the most famous families in all of comics, yet in this version they became a family not because of who shared a womb with who, but because they simply wanted to be one.

And that's the nice thing about this kind of representation - it benefits multiple groups simultaneously. You have talented minority actors who can be in something other than the next godawful Madea movie. You have another role model for boys and young men of color, and one more meager cosplay option out of the thousands that already exist for caucasian children. You have foster families being shown quite openly that, yes, their family matters as much as a biological/nuclear one, because oh look we can take an existing famous fictional family that once had biological ties, and change one of them to having been adopted without lessening the heroism or nobility of the characters involved in any way. And if the rumor I linked above is true, we even get the vanishingly rare circumstance of the minority family that adopts the white child - which does happen but is almost never shown on screen for various unfortunate and institutional/societal reasons.

So yeah, if a cosmically small change like this (not a "huge contrivance") can do so much good without in any way detracting from the woosh pow kerblam superhero wahey, I think that price of admission is pretty affordable, don't you?


I'm posting about this topic because I do care. And the fact that you think adopted family needs to be portrayed drastically differently from biological family is telling. Family is family.

If thinking representation is something we need more of makes me a "moral guardian of the universe," well, so be it. All I can say is that I'm glad at least some of the folks in charge of these decisions feel the same way, whatever their detractors may shout back at them.


Individual families are indeed different, but "this one is adopted so they can't be the Fantastic Four" is the true crazy here.


When it shows that the family with adopted kids can be just as "super" as the one with biological ones? Yes, that's a step forward.



http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon.png



All I can really say here is that again, I'm glad the people with the power to make decisions like these increasingly don't feel this way.
You're going to have to point me at the part of any of that implies not caring about group X, where X is not "people who think Johnny Storm should stay white and/or blood-related to Sue Storm" or "people who think young Iceman should be straight."


You miss the point of my logic.

Psyren's point was that groups that are in more trouble, demand more immediate reactions and "Representation". Akin to them being a house on fire. Unless that is not what he meant by the clever comic.

That is indeed obviously not what he meant. Psyren was talking about representation in media, you came out of left field with an assertion that if comic/movie writers are representing these people then they have to represent everyone in every individual thing they write (along with a lot of very deliberate straw man attacks and sarcastic hyperbole), and Psyren responded with no, it's perfectly acceptable to take things one step at a time.


Thats why "Representative" characters almost NEVER take off.

Black Panther
Blade
Captain Marvel
Cyborg
Falcon
Falcon as Captain America
John Stewart (Green Lantern)
Kyle Rainer (Green Lantern)
Luke Cage
Ms. Marvel
Sam Alexander (Nova)
She-Hulk
Static
Ultimate Spiderman
Wonder Woman (do I really even need to say this one?)
About half of the all the major X-Men ever
Jury's still out on Thor II but for now she's selling like crazy

I could go on but I won't.


Because if your not making the character specifically for the archetypical traits, then its a skin change, which is once again not "Diverse".

The "archetypal traits" of...? Because if you mean the "archetypal traits" of the group to be represented then I feel sick reading that.

[Jayngfet]

Isn't that what all mainstream comic book writing has been for the past 30-40 years?


That's the reputation but it wasn't exactly a major "thing" in the same way it is now. If you go back and read comics by era you can rather steadily see things change somewhere around the late 90's to early 00's. Before that point the reboots were rare enough and elseworlds out there enough that people had to basically use what they'd been given without much choice. But now anyone can toss around the word "iconic" and reboots and soft reboots are so common that even without elseworlds stuff they pretty much do not care.



Except you're either imagining everything after "it's better red" or bringing in baggage from some other thread I haven't read without saying so.

See also replies to those individual posts. I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

[Psyren]

Psyren's point was that groups that are in more trouble, demand more immediate reactions and "Representation". Akin to them being a house on fire. Unless that is not what he meant by the clever comic.

No - the point of the comic is that the group that already has privilege does not need advocacy. Claiming that you don't support equality if you only advocate for groups that lack privilege/agency is absurd - much like trying to put out a house that is not on fire.



No, he said "it's better red, and several totally hypothetical groups agree with me. It doesn't matter if I made it clear I don't care about them, or if the people disagreeing with me are actually in those groups, what I say is best".

I didn't even bring up this paint analogy in the first place, so please don't attribute any of your wild theories using it to me :smallconfused:

[t209]

Black Panther
Blade
Captain Marvel
Cyborg
Falcon
Falcon as Captain America
John Stewart (Green Lantern)
Kyle Rainer (Green Lantern)
Luke Cage
Ms. Marvel
Sam Alexander (Nova)
She-Hulk
Static
Ultimate Spiderman
Wonder Woman (do I really even need to say this one?)
About half of the all the major X-Men ever
Jury's still out on Thor II but for now she's selling like crazy

I wonder if Thor II is becoming like Red Hulk, like the identity storyline becoming boring.
- Black Panther was good until Reggie Hudlin took over (hypocritical, flat side characters, and the terrible show). I even tweeted to Aaron McGruder, his archenemesis, if he would write T'Challa to insult Hudlin.
- Sam, I don't know but he's good but not enough for Rich Rider. I mean how cool if he team up with Rich as a mentor.
edit: Though I kinda like Sam Alexander better except the one from Ultimate Spiderman and Avengers vs. X-Men didn't develop him either.

[Scowling Dragon]

No - the point of the comic is that the group that already has privilege does not need advocacy.

Ah. Your one of those people. My logic still stands. Rally for the LEAST Privileged then. Anything otherwise is unneeded support for the already privileged.


A Bunch of Characters
I could go on but I won't.


Well yes. Exactly. But I guess we have different ratings for "Take off and become successful".

And I guess we have different understanding of "Selling Like Crazy". If you mean start at 150,000 and then drop by around 50+% then I guess its selling like crazy.

But I have had enough

Honestly I prefer being around people who just hate me for my human traits, then people who view me as a walking set of Oppressions and Privileges.

[Raistlin1040]

Ah. Your one of those people. My logic still stands. Rally for the LEAST Privileged then. Anything otherwise is unneeded support for the already privileged.
You don't need to make facetious remarks to have a conversation. The problem is that privilege is a difficult concept to understand, and it's unfair to try and pit groups that have systemic problems against each other. White gay men have different experiences than black straight men, who have different experiences than white straight women, white gay women, people with disabilities of all races, orientations, genders, etc. The idea here is to understand the intersectionality of identity, the idea that there are a lot of things that make you, you. Your gender, your sexual orientation, your race, your socio-economic status, etc. You can be a white, straight, rich man with no physical or mental disabilities living in America and still have problems, or still be a good person. The whole point of a discussion about privilege isn't to silence those voices. It just tried to bring more voices to the table, and that can seem like taking away from what you already have, but I think that's sort of an entitled way to look at it.

There shouldn't need to be a fight over which minority characters get to be shown in comics. It also shouldn't be a fad. "Black people are way out, the new "trendy" minority is gay people. Stock the comic with gays and let's be done with it."


Well yes. Exactly. But I guess we have different ratings for "Take off and become successful".

And I guess we have different understanding of "Selling Like Crazy". If you mean start at 150,000 and then drop by around 50+% then I guess its selling like crazy.

But I have had enough

Honestly I prefer being around people who just hate me for my human traits, then people who view me as a walking set of Oppressions and Privileges.
Ms. Marvel, for example, has been selling like crazy. In print, it started strong and has slowly fallen to being successful, but not earth-shatteringly so. Yet, when you look at digital sales, Marvel has come out and said that it's their best selling title. Comixology said recently that Silk, Ms. Marvel, and Thor made up 7 of their top 10 best-selling issues in March. These are models for success. There are obviously other models, like Spider-Gwen, which has been selling very well in print. You might not see all these comics fly off the shelves at your LCS, and you might not see someone reading it on the subway or in the hallway at school, or at a coffee shop. It's possible that the traditional comic buying audience isn't so interested in them. But they're obviously successful, they're finding audiences and they're all pretty good, so I don't see why we have to belittle them, or talk about how being inclusive is some kind of pandering marketing tool by SJWs designed to ruin comics/games/movies for everyone else.

[Psyren]

You're going to have to point me at the part of any of that implies not caring about group X, where X is not "people who think Johnny Storm should stay white and/or blood-related to Sue Storm" or "people who think young Iceman should be straight."
...
That is indeed obviously not what he meant. Psyren was talking about representation in media, you came out of left field with an assertion that if comic/movie writers are representing these people then they have to represent everyone in every individual thing they write (along with a lot of very deliberate straw man attacks and sarcastic hyperbole), and Psyren responded with no, it's perfectly acceptable to take things one step at a time.

Correct.


Ah. Your one of those people.

What people would those be?


My logic still stands. Rally for the LEAST Privileged then.

Even if this weren't Perfect Fallacy, it's irrelevant to this topic. The comic and movie decision-makers have made the choice to be more inclusive to/representative of certain historically marginalized groups. They are not somehow evil or deficient for not expanding their scope to represent every marginalized group under creation (impractical and untenable) or for diverting resources to determine which group "has it worse" than all the others. Nor am I doing anything wrong by encouraging them in the steps they have chosen to take.

[Sith_Happens]

What people would those be?

Whichever people they are, he seems to think you have one of them.:smalltongue: This post brought to you by the National Apostrophe Association.

[Darth Credence]

...

Jaynegfett: So, they announce Alan Scots Gay, and in the same issue, kill off his boyfriend, and then he's NEVER seen or heard doing anything else again that doesn't indicate he's not A-sexual after that same issue. And this doesn't sound like a tacky publicity stunt were the intent was to stir up controversy with out having to actually put up with a Gay character who's a major Super, not even in an alternate universe, to you? Really?

It is clear from reading this thread that no one who has discussed Alan Scott here has actually read the Earth 2 comic book. Alan grieves for a decent period of time, and it is clear he misses Sam. His engagement ring is changed by the Green to be his GL ring. Eventually, we find that as Alan is the avatar of the Green, Sam is the avatar of the White. It is clearly shown that Alan is still in love, and they are shown kissing as avatars. A big part of the end of the run is him having to accept the loss of Sam and protect the world, but even then he gets a final moment with Sam.

He certainly shows that he is gay long after that issue. It helps define his character - not necessarily that he is gay, but his love for Sam. He is also the most powerful Earthling in that universe.

[Dragonus45]

No - the point of the comic is that the group that already has privilege does not need advocacy. Claiming that you don't support equality if you only advocate for groups that lack privilege/agency is absurd - much like trying to put out a house that is not on fire.


Define privilege for me.

[Psyren]

Define privilege for me.

It's difficult to do without running afoul of the prohibitions here on political discussion. I think this link does a fairly good job without tying it to any particular current events: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Privilege

What I would like to pull out of that in particular is the "misconceptions" section, which states:

"The principal misconception of privilege is that it applies exclusively on, or scales evenly and perfectly down to, an individual level, and so that the existence of individuals from a class considered privileged (e.g. white males) within a class considered underprivileged (e.g. working class poor) or the reverse scenario disproves the concept. This isn't the case at all. "Privilege" in the social justice sense applies only to classes of people, as far as it could be quantified it is only a statistical average. On average, those in an ethnic majority experience privilege, and on average those in minority groups experience oppression."

One of the "benefits and advantages of privilege" specific to the discussion at hand, is the fact that straight, white males get to enjoy the widest variety of superhero concepts tailored to them. Even the female superheroes are designed to measure up to the standards of a largely straight male aesthetic. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower) And while representation as a concept may not matter to specific individuals within the class being represented (e.g. you) it does matter to others within that class, and even benefits the class as a whole.

Hence the willingness of creators to increase the variety of options out there being a good thing.

[Sith_Happens]

Define privilege for me.

In the context of this thread, the short version is "The existence of so many characters belonging to [real world category] already, with most of those characters not necesarrily conforming to known stereotypes of [category], that you would expect few if any people to claim that there needs to be more such characters."

[Dragonus45]

Ohhh someone finally defined it for me, this should be fun. You know the defenition itself doesn't seem so bad, although I think it relies on some faulty logic lets start with a few examples and see if we can't hash out where the problem here is.

Walking home at night

The majority of rape cases are male-on-female, a statistical asymmetry that is well-quantified. The result is that a fear of rape, or a threat of rape, is a real thing for women far more than for men. Generally speaking, men have fewer reasons (both statistical and tangible) to fear a sexual assault. This is what is being referred to by "privilege" in this sense. Men have a particular privilege not to experience this fear, or in other words women have a particular under-privilege (or lack of privilege) to experience it.

For starters this uses bad data, rape is committed equally by men and women and happens to men as often as women. I notice this uses fear of being outside as an example but then zooms in on rape and ignores all other crime. Statistically a man is more far likely to be a victim of violent crime while walking home at night. Does that mean that women are actually the privileged ones, since the definition of privilege used here seems to mandate that privilege is at the cost of oppression in others does that mean men are oppressed? This looks more like someone decided women were oppressed by fear of being outside and worked backwards from there instead of looking at who was in actual danger.

Further examples

Basic examples of privileges talked about in this sense include:

The ability of men to walk alone at night without the fear of sexual assault that is often experienced by women. - Already tackled this one

The fact that for a man to be in public without a top is socially acceptable, while it seldom is for a woman. - Interesting choice given that women are the ones most interested in keeping this status quo going. How is this oppression from a "majority" group.


The fact that sexual promiscuity is a socially desirable trait in men, but is often denigrated in women. - Really, no one but guy A's friends are actually happy he got laid for the Nth time. The rest of society thinks he is a womanizing pig.

The ability of whites to avoid racial profiling or to avoid greater prison sentences. - This is 100% true, we need to fix this one no complaints. But white we are at it we might want to look at that sentencing disparity between men and women as well.

The ability to use a gendered bathroom straightforwardly, when compared to the experiences of transgender or otherwise gender-nonconforming people. - No real comment here either, I can image things being awkward with this.

The ability to effectively manage the workload of day-to-day life, when compared to the experience of chronically ill people. - While this is certainly a privilege I wonder at its inclusion on this list as this is no ones fault and certainly is not oppression.

The ability of the rich and powerful not to worry about the financial implications of an accident or unexpected illness, when compared to the poor. - Well they have the money, they worked for it. This seems to me like the definition of earned privilege. Like, if I make it to manager at a store I work at I put the schedule together and I get the days off I want. Yea its a privilege but the word itself is not evil.

The ability of certain light-skinned people of color, "straight-acting" gay/bisexual people, and the like to pass as part of the privileged classes even though they're not members of it. - Wow, just wow. This is some bigoted **** right here. It does seem like a great way to toss a member of a minority group out when they disagree with privilege logic though. If you think I'm talking out of my ass this exact thing happened to me yesterday in another conversation about the Ice Man issue and I see it tossed out all the time against lighter skinned black people when they argue with it.

The ability of some transgender persons to be readily identified by others as the gender that they identify as. This is also called "passing privilege." - I don't have enough knolwedge of the transgender community to speak to this one either way but knowing what I know about the usage of privilege in actual social justice conversations (not in the SJW sense just using the same terminology as the wiki) I think its rather mean spirited. Why not just be happy for the trans person instead of defining them as an oppressor.

The availability and affordability of education, including parental financial support. - Once again this is adding an example of someone being privileged to bolster the legitimacy of the list when no actual oppression is occurring along the way.


The coinciding of national holidays with Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas, reducing the need for make-up exams and time off of work. - First time I have ever even heard this complaint but and discu

Car repair and other things that are seen as unfeminine

The most common demonstrations of privilege that most people will see is the occasional demonstration by TV news shows of what happens when women take cars into repair garages. Quite simply, dishonest mechanics are more likely to cheat women on repair costs than men.

Similarly, websites like Not Always Right show stories of women being taken less seriously than men by customers in places like video game shops.

This one is ripe for the kicking, I can think of more examples than I could list of some things being gendered one way and other things being gendered the other. Surprise surprise, this seems to zoom in on yet another example of "female oppression", but Xhibit must have visited because we got some female victimization in our female victimization. Not only is this an example of women being oppressed by having some things designated mens responsibilities but the example of how it plays out is someone victimizing a women by attempting to scam her. This is of course ignoring the fact that car geeks or whatever hobbyists LOVE to find out there are women interested and involved in their hobbies. But really was there a reason to have this be gendered when there are enough examples on all sides for it to be considered a gender neutral issue. It's almost like whoever was writing this article had an agenda.

Finally the one most relevant to the conversation. (Yes I skipped one I already agreed it was a problem up there.)
Public displays of affection

Heterosexual imagery is used in the vast majority of advertising and media, despite the fact that as much as 10% of the population may be gay, or some degree of bisexual or queer. In short, heterosexual behaviour is on constant display, is rarely ever challenged, and is effectively "normalised". So, consider the cases where people say that they're all for LGBT equality (cf. "Not racist, but..."), but disapprove of it being displayed prominently and "rammed down their throats". This is a classic case of privilege and privilege-blindness because ostensibly overt displays of affection from homosexuals are actually no more or less overt than those from heterosexuals. Boy-girl hand-holding is unlikely to even register for most people, while boy-boy or girl-girl combinations in the street — because of their relative rarity — are likely to produce a much stronger signal.

In short, those who ask homosexual couples to be less open and "in your face" about their gayness simply don't realise how open and "in your face" heterosexual couples are.

So this is great, it even acknowledges my point in the opening sentence. I like men, that makes me part of a minority of people. Because there are less of me out there by a fairly wide margin I see less of me on television. That isn't oppression, that's demographics. Also, this thing on the homosexual affection not being overt is crap. I say that, not some privilege blind oppressor. Me, the guy who, even when he was ostensibly in the closet, got weekly beatings in high school for being to gay. Most people, they trumpet it from the rooftops the first chance they get. "We had a gay minor character in an alternate universe where he matters now but no one actually reads. So be sure to read it now" They trumpet from the rooftops. You know who my favorite LGB character in just about all of fiction right now is, other than Jack Harkness. Its David Singh, he was ok in new 52, but The Flash has been perfect. I love how he gets treated like everyone else right up the moment he mentions his boyfriend getting onto him abut his diet. I loved how everyone nodded and one of the cops gave a nod of sympathy similar to one you might see when a man talks about his wife getting onto him about having a burger. It was subtle, but not trying to hide. It was straightforward and used existed tropes about husbands and wives that most people in real life can relate too to help maintain the feeling of normalization. I love how no one felt the need to SHOVE IT DOWN MY MEN LOVING THROAT. I like how over the season we hear they are getting married, how when he gets hospitalized they hospital doesn't fight letting his fiance into the room, nurse say family only they say hes the fiance she lets him in it was that east. That would have been a great moment to do some melodrama, most other shows I have watched would have made a biiiig issue out of it and had them have to fight to get him in. And you know what, the moment was all the more powerful and meaningful for its better execution.


So what, comics are mainly aimed at men. romance novels are largely aimed at women, are you going to campaign for a better or more realistic presentation of men in romance novels? For most of its history men have been the ones propping up and supporting the comic industry is spite of the fact it was the kind of thing that got you ridiculed and made fun of, so of course its main aim is towards men. For the great majority of its history it has been and still is a male space. Even now they are the largest demographic of super hero comics. Why is that a BAD thing. The best conclusion I can come to is the belief that there can be no male spaces. If I'm incorrect please let me know what the issue here is.


As for the "straight male aesthetic" line you seem to be following the bad logic that some how sexy men are a power fantasy and sexy women are not. Lets talk about male heroes for a moment. http://i.imgur.com/v10vkEH.jpg?1 How is this any different from drawing a female character with big breasts, hell you could never get away with posing a bunch of female characters on a cover like that. Women LIKE looking at Namor in his speedo, men LIKE looking at Power girl and for the most part men and women enjoy imagining the feeling of being those powerful sexy people. No one is being victimized by a male gaze here.


So despite being in the demographic you propose to be representing here as the one in need of "representation"You say your on my side, well I'd like to ask you to stop.

[jere7my]

Me, the guy who, even when he was ostensibly in the closet, got weekly beatings in high school for being to gay.

I appreciate that you buried a perfect illustration of privilege in the middle of your anti-privilege rant. All else being equal, straight people enjoy the privilege of not having to hide their orientation, and of not having to fear violence if they don't hide it well enough. Thanks!

[Psyren]

As I said Dragonus, this is already getting dangerously close to political, so I'm going to skip over the rape statistics and other Playground-inappropriate topics and focus solely on the parts directly relevant to the thread topic at hand - representation in fiction.


So this is great, it even acknowledges my point in the opening sentence. I like men, that makes me part of a minority of people. Because there are less of me out there by a fairly wide margin I see less of me on television. That isn't oppression, that's demographics.

To start off, this is a straw man - nobody is saying "there shouldn't be fewer LGBT heroes than straight ones." Obviously that would be the case in just about any fictional universe that is not focused on LGBT heroes exclusively. Rather, two problematic things are taking place here: (1) the proportions are smaller than even demographics suggest they should be, and (2) even when we do get heroes, there is little to them aside from their sexual orientation.

Let's look for example at the main Marvel continuity, Earth-616. Marvel Wiki has the following known gay characters:


Northstar
Kyle Jinadu, his husband
Wiccan
Hulkling
Graymalkin
Lucy in the Sky
Karma
Martyr
Victoria Hand
Benjamin Deeds (other Morph)
Anole
Pod
Rictor
Superia
Striker
Union Jack
Living Lightning
Flatman
Christian Frost (Emma's brother)
Bloodstone
Bling!
Man-Killer (...ugh)
Destroyer
Jackpot
Bloke
Catastrophe Jen
Rococo
Hector
Vivisector
Bouncer
Captain Flame (...really?)
Phat
Amy Chen
Jumbo Carnation
Riot
Frenchie (...really?)
Holly
A handful of non-powered background characters

And now we have Iceman too.

Let's plug that last one to reach... say, 50 openly gay characters in the Earth-616 continuity. Now, there are over 40,000 characters on the wiki; even cutting that down to say only 1/5 of those are from Earth-616 (as that is Marvel's largest universe, this is a pretty conservative estimate, but let's go with it) - that's still works out to around 0.6%. Meanwhile current statistics put the population that identifies as gay at roughly 4% - over 6 times that proportion. So even sticking purely to your own stance of "it's not oppression, it's demographics" - representation is coming up woefully short just by the numbers.

But the raw math isn't even the main point. Look over that list again - how many well-known or major characters are on it? We've got Northstar, Iceman, maybe Hulkling and Graymalkin... the vast majority are D-list at best. All the other heavy hitters are straight, or at the very least silent on the subject and thus assumed to be. Ask someone who isn't immersed in comic books who half of these folks are and you'd get blank expressions all around. It's just sad.



Also, this thing on the homosexual affection not being overt is crap. I say that, not some privilege blind oppressor. Me, the guy who, even when he was ostensibly in the closet, got weekly beatings in high school for being to gay. Most people, they trumpet it from the rooftops the first chance they get. "We had a gay minor character in an alternate universe where he matters now but no one actually reads. So be sure to read it now" They trumpet from the rooftops. You know who my favorite LGB character in just about all of fiction right now is, other than Jack Harkness. Its David Singh, he was ok in new 52, but The Flash has been perfect. I love how he gets treated like everyone else right up the moment he mentions his boyfriend getting onto him abut his diet. I loved how everyone nodded and one of the cops gave a nod of sympathy similar to one you might see when a man talks about his wife getting onto him about having a burger. It was subtle, but not trying to hide. It was straightforward and used existed tropes about husbands and wives that most people in real life can relate too to help maintain the feeling of normalization. I love how no one felt the need to SHOVE IT DOWN MY MEN LOVING THROAT. I like how over the season we hear they are getting married, how when he gets hospitalized they hospital doesn't fight letting his fiance into the room, nurse say family only they say hes the fiance she lets him in it was that east. That would have been a great moment to do some melodrama, most other shows I have watched would have made a biiiig issue out of it and had them have to fight to get him in. And you know what, the moment was all the more powerful and meaningful for its better execution.

Other shows make a big deal out of things like marriage and hospital visits because they're still problems now. Art imitates life, and all that. I'd love nothing more than for those problems to be unworthy of comment, but while they still exist, they are.



So what, comics are mainly aimed at men. romance novels are largely aimed at women, are you going to campaign for a better or more realistic presentation of men in romance novels? For most of its history men have been the ones propping up and supporting the comic industry is spite of the fact it was the kind of thing that got you ridiculed and made fun of, so of course its main aim is towards men. For the great majority of its history it has been and still is a male space. Even now they are the largest demographic of super hero comics. Why is that a BAD thing. The best conclusion I can come to is the belief that there can be no male spaces. If I'm incorrect please let me know what the issue here is.

I can't think of a compelling reason why there need to be "male spaces" at all, and even if there are, I can't think of a compelling reason why mainstream comic books need to be one of them. Should the wants of female comic book fans be overlooked? Do they not exist too? Is their money less green? etc.

The parallel to romance novels is pretty specious - I'm guessing that Disney/Marvel and WB/DC want their characters, in whatever form they take (comics, movies, games etc.) to be available to as wide an audience as possible, regardless of gender. They would certainly not agree with you that, say, the Justice League is meant to be an exclusively "male space."



As for the "straight male aesthetic" line you seem to be following the bad logic that some how sexy men are a power fantasy and sexy women are not. Lets talk about male heroes for a moment. http://i.imgur.com/v10vkEH.jpg?1 How is this any different from drawing a female character with big breasts, hell you could never get away with posing a bunch of female characters on a cover like that. Women LIKE looking at Namor in his speedo, men LIKE looking at Power girl and for the most part men and women enjoy imagining the feeling of being those powerful sexy people. No one is being victimized by a male gaze here.

And how many times is GL drawn like that, compared to the many, many bird's eye shots of Power Girl's boob window, or Catwoman and Spiderwoman's poses etc.? A lone cheesecake cover for the dudes does not a trend make.



So despite being in the demographic you propose to be representing here as the one in need of "representation"You say your on my side, well I'd like to ask you to stop.

For starters, I never claimed to be speaking for you specifically. You don't know anything about my own orientation or what minority groups I may belong to. Second, as the link I provided above states, this isn't about acceding to what one individual considers worthy or unworthy of discussion, even if you were able to make that determination for anyone else.

[Dragonus45]

I appreciate that you buried a perfect illustration of privilege in the middle of your anti-privilege rant. All else being equal, straight people enjoy the privilege of not having to hide their orientation, and of not having to fear violence if they don't hide it well enough. Thanks!

People get beaten up for lots of things, I had friends beaten up for wearing the wrong clothes, friends beaten up for liking the wrong things. I got my face punched in because people thought, correctly, I liked men but that doesn't mean that the violence I faced was unique.

[jere7my]

People get beaten up for lots of things, I had friends beaten up for wearing the wrong clothes, friends beaten up for liking the wrong things. I got my face punched in because people thought, correctly, I liked men but that doesn't mean that the violence I faced was unique.

No, but, all else being equal, you are statistically more likely to face violence for your orientation than a straight man. That's a privilege straight men have, on average, that gay men do not. (I might also add that it's easier to wear different clothes than it is to stop being gay, which is why fashion privilege isn't as much of an issue, except insofar as it ties in to class privilege.)

It's conceivable that someone might beat me up, or hurl epithets at me, because they see me holding hands with my wife, but it's so remote a possibility I don't need to factor it into my choices. That's unfortunately not the case for a lot of gay men who want to hold hands with their partners. Not having to think about it, not having to incorporate it into my thought process, is a privilege I hold because I'm straight.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm guessing that Disney/Marvel and WB/DC want their characters, in whatever form they take (comics, movies, games etc.) to be available to as wide an audience as possible, regardless of gender.

Considering DC recently announced its answer to MLP (http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/22/8471211/dc-super-hero-girls), I'm guessing your guess is correct.


And how many times is GL drawn like that, compared to the many, many bird's eye shots of Power Girl's boob window, or Catwoman and Spiderwoman's poses etc.? A lone cheesecake cover for the dudes does not a trend make.

This seems like a great time to bring up the Hawkeye Initiative (http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/), if only because it's hilarious.:smallwink:

[Psyren]

Considering DC recently announced its answer to MLP (http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/22/8471211/dc-super-hero-girls), I'm guessing your guess is correct.

That's awesome and I hope it does well. The lack of pink and purple is extremely heartening.


This seems like a great time to bring up the Hawkeye Initiative (http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/), if only because it's hilarious.:smallwink:

Annnnnd bookmarked :smallbiggrin:

[t209]

Considering DC recently announced its answer to MLP (http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/22/8471211/dc-super-hero-girls), I'm guessing your guess is correct.
I have a bad feeling it might bring in grown men or flooding deviantart with inappropriate pictures.

[Psyren]

I have a bad feeling it might bring in grown men or flooding deviantart with inappropriate pictures.

Is that sarcasm? Judging by your avatar and stated gender you appear to have no problem with guys liking MLP unless I'm mistaken.

But even if that is theoretically a problem for MLP (not saying it is or isn't), it would be much less so here, since these are already characters that are popular with a predominantly male audience across various media.

[t209]

Is that sarcasm? Judging by your avatar and stated gender you appear to have no problem with guys liking MLP unless I'm mistaken.

But even if that is theoretically a problem for MLP (not saying it is or isn't), it would be much less so here, since these are already characters that are popular with a predominantly male audience across various media.
I mean no offense. I was trying to say something bad but changed at last minute like inappropriate cartoons in naughty websites or scaring off old DC never counting in Bronies.

[Psyren]

Oh I wasn't offended just confused :smallsmile: it seemed like you were making a dig at bronies... while being one :smallbiggrin:

[Kitten Champion]

Considering DC recently announced its answer to MLP (http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/22/8471211/dc-super-hero-girls), I'm guessing your guess is correct.

I wish they stuck it out with Super Best Friends Forever if they were eventually going to launch something along the same lines anyways. Well, I suppose there's no reason to cynically assume Super Hero Girls (or whatever the final title will be) will be a step down, but still it just feels like a waste of their existing efforts. SBFF hit all the notes they seem to want to hit with this new project and was entertaining from an adult perspective as well, that's really hard to do.

[Frozen_Feet]

The problem is that privilege is a difficult concept to understand.

No it's not. Privilege is a right or advantage granted to a person above that which is granted to other persons. Problems start when people try sneak in a value judgement to the definition, such as: "privilege is a right or advantage unfairly granted to a person above that which is granted to other persons". Or try to abstract it to a point where it borders on magical thinking. To illustrate this later thing, let me quote the rational wiki like Psyren did:



"The principal misconception of privilege is that it applies exclusively on, or scales evenly and perfectly down to, an individual level, and so that the existence of individuals from a class considered privileged (e.g. white males) within a class considered underprivileged (e.g. working class poor) or the reverse scenario disproves the concept. This isn't the case at all. "Privilege" in the social justice sense applies only to classes of people, as far as it could be quantified it is only a statistical average."

The above? It's humbug. Privilege very much is a thing that can be quantified and disproven on an invidual level. If it wasn't, it would be
unfalsifiable. Those statistics were gathered from people, from invidual-level experiences. I know the spirit of what they're saying ("Exceptions prove the rule") but the way they word it here is bonkers.

[Psyren]

Privilege very much is a thing that can be quantified and disproven on an invidual level.

But not "evenly or perfectly" - which is what they actually said.

[GloatingSwine]

The above? It's humbug. Privilege very much is a thing that can be quantified and disproven on an invidual level. If it wasn't, it would be
unfalsifiable. Those statistics were gathered from people, from invidual-level experiences. I know the spirit of what they're saying ("Exceptions prove the rule") but the way they word it here is bonkers.

No, what they're saying is that the fact that privelege is not shared equally by all members of a class doesn't mean the class in general isn't priveleged, becuase that's an argument which is commonly raised.

[jere7my]

No, what they're saying is that the fact that privelege is not shared equally by all members of a class doesn't mean the class in general isn't priveleged, becuase that's an argument which is commonly raised.

Right. Barack Obama being president doesn't erase white privilege in the US.

[Frozen_Feet]

Three people in a row who fail to spot the mistake. Let me help you again:
"Privilege" in the social justice sense applies only to classes of people, as far as it could be quantified it is only a statistical average."

I know what they're trying to say. What they are saying is entirely different.

[Psyren]

"applies only to the group/class" is a misnomer, sure, but a very mild one. Of course it can apply to an individual's experiences too - but that is far more often used in the reverse ("I don't experience it/don't think we need to talk about it!") as a smokescreen defense or paper tiger attack on the concept, rather than as validation of its existence.

[Sith_Happens]

Think of it like the Bechdel test: extremely revealing/relevant in the aggregate, but less then useless when applied at the individual level.

[Frozen_Feet]

If one person says they don't experience something, that's the exception that proves the rule.

If a lot of people say they don't experience something, it's possible we don't have a rule.

Their experiences are verified and quantified on an invidual level, and then statistics are made of those. You can't have something be "only" a statistical average or "only" applying to a group in the context of privilege. It's bad rhetoric leading to an abstraction fallacy.

[Lethologica]

If a person can be told to check their privilege, then privilege can be experienced and applied individually.

[Frozen_Feet]

The whole "checking your privilege thing" is made extra ironic by the fact that some social justice warriors have furthered the argument "if you have it, you can't see it". Depending on how cynical you are of the author's intentions, Sinfest webcomic either parodies or illustrates this line of thought, by comparing "The Patriarchy" to The Matrix.

[Psyren]

If a lot of people say they don't experience something, it's possible we don't have a rule.

And if a lot of people say we do?


social justice warriors

sigh

[Frozen_Feet]

And if a lot of people say we do?

Then maybe we have. It's still something that's quantified and verified on an invidual level.


sigh

Hey, you come up with a better label for that class of people if you find it sigh-worthy. :smalltongue:

EDIT:


Think of it like the Bechdel test: extremely revealing/relevant in the aggregate, but less then useless when applied at the individual level.

You're missing the point. Bechdel test can only be applied to invidual movies. Whatever the statistics gathered from applying it en masse indicate, that doesn't change.

[Psyren]

Then maybe we have. It's still something that's quantified and verified on an invidual level.

And determined/concluded on in the aggregate, once those individual experiences have been quantified.


Hey, you come up with a better label for that class of people if you find it sigh-worthy. :smalltongue:

Activists? :smalltongue:

I don't actually mind the label personally (minus the "warrior" part - I'm more of a "social justice debater"), but it's not hard to figure out the mindset of the people who tend to use it.

[Lethologica]

it's not hard to figure out the mindset of the people who tend to use it.
As a rule, I'm suspicious of anything about large groups of people that seems easy to figure out.

[Sith_Happens]

Hey, you come up with a better label for that class of people if you find it sigh-worthy. :smalltongue:

"Tumblr zealots?" "Activists that are doing it wrong?" "Those crazy people on the Internet that you only ever hear about because other crazy people on the Internet constantly use them as living straw men for things they don't like?"


You're missing the point. Bechdel test can only be applied to invidual movies. Whatever the statistics gathered from applying it en masse indicate, that doesn't change.

That's what I meant. While the only way to apply the test is one movie at a time, the fact that a given movie passed or failed the test can't really be used to say anything about it other than "it passed/failed the test." Test a bunch of movies, on the other hand, and you can start to say or at least speculate some things based on the pass-fail ratio.

[Frozen_Feet]

That's what I meant. While the only way to apply the test is one movie at a time, the fact that a given movie passed or failed the test can't really be used to say anything about it other than "it passed/failed the test."

And here's where the analogy falls apart. Because while "passed or didn't pass the test" isn't very informative, "has or has not the privilege" has immediate practical implications to a person.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

privilege isn't something that can be assumed. Some people do have privilege, I even know them. A rich black gay woman has a lot more privilege then a poor straight white guy.

now back on topic I have not read Xmen in a few years, but I could see Bobby Drake Ice man coming out of the closet, but I read this and totally hate the way it happened. I'm in a very confused place in my life(I'm not sure how to label myself other then Tabitha), and I find the "Everyone is Bi" to hit me as very insulting.

[Jayngfet]

I don't actually mind the label personally (minus the "warrior" part - I'm more of a "social justice debater"), but it's not hard to figure out the mindset of the people who tend to use it.

To be frank, I don't think he'd use the term if you didn't more or less exactly fit the stereotype. Pretty much everything you've said could probably have come out of a hypothetical playbook dead on. Every presumption, every comparison, more or less the contents of every post. Which is kinda why you're getting so much flak, you're acting like a walking manual on the kind of thing people don't like dealing with in comic threads.