Spell help. 3.5 D&D.

[Metahuman1]

I've got a 5th level Sorcerer 3rd level Mage of the Arcane Order in a game, and next session were gonna have a major boss confrontation.

We know the enemy has 2 hostages that we want alive, and one Macguffin that the DM has said we need, but that he's gonna let things go naturally on. (I.E. if we can do something legitimate that secures it, we get it, but if they can do something that doesn't rely on OOC knowledge to get it out from under us, they can get it.).


So, our enemy's. We have one Sorcerer (Prestige Classes if any are unknown.) whom were told was quite fond of Item Crafting (A thing my sorcerer also does a lot of for our party.). He's a temp ally of convenience looking to advance himself by using the rest of the enemy's were gonna fight. The only things I know for sure about him are that he summoned some Oni by impersonating a local ruler he's trying to Dethrone and using some ancient mystical contract the ruler has with there people to order a pair of Oni, equivalent to the village idiots, to do his bidding.) and that when one of our party members got the wild hair idea to throw an adamatine dagger at him it was described as hitting, passing through his head, and out the back in explosion of sand, then instantly reforming and leaving him with an amused expression. This was later described by his ruler whom we rescued as Dessert magics. I don't know what his total level is, caster level, spells know, or gear carried/equipped is.

Next is a Cleric. I don't know her gear or spell load out either, but I do know that she's at least 12th level (Party is 8th level and has 8 PC's in play in case anyone's wondering.), and could be as high as 20th.

After that, I know for sure her apprentice who's at least 9th level and another NPC who's a catfolk and appears more martial and/or skill monkey with Dex focus is in there.




And beyond that, an unknown number of Constructs, Enemy military personnel of any given build, and/or Oni (could be all or none there.).



And were gonna get to go in there and have a knock down drag out boss fight. Now, in fairness, the DM is giving us a magic location right outside the room that drops a full heal, removal of status effects that are negative, and full restoration of spell casting, as well as a bit of a breather so anyone who wants to prepare spells and has spell to prepare, or who wants to throw up buffs activate/change a martial stance, ready actions or change readied martial maneuvers may do so. And yes, we can try to sneak in and ambush if we wish, but that has no assurance of working.


So, that get's me to the question at hand. I can have up to 1 3rd level spell, 1 2nd level + 1 first level spell, or up to 3 f1st level spells ready to go from mage of the Arcane order, weather I know the spell or not.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a spell or spells that might prove really helpful in tipping odds in my party's favor?

My original plan was to pull a trick to get some Quintessence (Long Story.) but the DM veto'd that on grounds of Psionics being banned and feeling it was too close to Psionics. (The plan would have been to have prepped Sending and Ghoul Gylph, used the quintessence to carry the Ghoul Glype in, but not before using A sending to contact the ruler and have another caster put him in touch with those bound Oni to help us at the start of the fight, then walk in and flash the Glyph and Paralyze at least a few of our enemy's and try to just out action economy the rest. )

That having been veto'd, the only other thing I can think of its to ready an action, put explosive runes on a bit of paper, and prestdigitate it to the sorcerer in a way that forces him to see it and let's it explode in his face doing 8d6 force damage to soften him up if not with luck kill him outright in a surprise round.

So, I'm VERY open to suggestions right now if anyone has better ideas.

[Dolour]

Does anyone have any suggestions for a spell or spells that might prove really helpful in tipping odds in my party's favor?
a sorc and a cleric you say?
no balance class-skill for YOU! so, a scuplted grease or two should proove terribly annoying to them.
have your cleric prepare silence, wich is handy since most ppl dont bother to pick up silent spell(or make use of it in case they did).
command anyone? your BSF will love the AoO.

and lets not forget glitterdust, if you cant see sh*t, you cant aim spells at anyone either.
same goes for stinking cloud, you cant fight when your busy choking your guts out.

[GilesTheCleric]

Do you know how many hp the hostages have? And, do you have any scrying spells/chain of eyes/etc?

[Metahuman1]

Silence is a good possibility, any suggestions for a level 1 spell to complement that?



We don't, but were kinda given to understand that there is BAD shape right now. And while we have divination magic, the protections for the Macguffin both groups are after prevent them from working on things inside the dungeon were in (meaning we can't scry them for the moment.)

[Janthkin]

Given that there are hostages and/or fragile (egg) McGuffins lying around, you'll want to be careful with your AoE spells. Even better, get them off the battlefield if you can (Plane shift? Dimension Door? Shadow Well?). Your party wealth is probably too low to get away with "shoot the hostages (dead); raise them later" as a strategy here.

Net of Shadows (Spell Compendium) is a great 1st level spell for tossing at a large number of mooks, as it will essentially negate them while it lasts, and it hits so many targets that some are going to fail their saves. Similarly, classic area-disabling spells (that won't kill your hostages) like Web, Grease, and Stinking Cloud are battlefield control classics for a reason. But make sure your martial types have some way of avoiding the nastiness (Freedom of Movement is available to your level 8 party, but it'll be expensive). Understand that some spells, like Glitterdust & Net of Shadows, hit Will saves, where your Sorcerer & Cleric foes are likely to be stronger; hit them in the Reflex save where possible.

Summoning is great, particularly if you can do so outside of initiative, as it lets you screw with action economy some more.

Dispelling is likely to be an uphill struggle, if your party level is so much lower than the opposing Cleric. If you want to try, I'd suggest the first level "Dispel Ward" instead, as a low-cost way to roll some dice at things like Protection/Magic Circle against X (which would inconvenience your Summoned friends), as well as various Shield spells.

For that matter, Magic Circle against X is a good choice for your side, too, to keep off Summoned riff-raff.

Oh, and if you can walk in with some Illusions in place, a Silent Image may eat a nasty attack, instead of a friend.

Oh some more - stoneshape! Stoneshape is definitely your friend in a "prevent the hostages from being injured" sort of way. Whoever is casting it may need a speed buff (Exp. retreat, haste) to ensure they can run over and toss up a quick wall. Or use it to open a new door into the final room.

[NeoPhoenix0]

It might be a good idea to also consider the spell Dark Way from the spell compendium. It is basically a wall of force with a lot of restrictions on it. It is a second level spell, but it might be able to protect the hostages/mcguffin and allow you to use a lot of blasty spells. I don't really know if that is a good strategy for you, but i thought i would put it out there.

[Segev]

Alter (or Disguise) Self + Suggestion.

Show up looking like the ruler the enemy sorcerer is impersonating.

Attack the enemy sorcerer again in front of the oni, revealing his "Desert magics."

Claim he's a sand-clone that is only pretending to be said ruler, and that you're the real ruler.

Use Suggestion on the "I'm the real ruler" bit.

If these two oni are village idiots as described, their will saves are probably crap, so they'll buy it pretty well straight-up, especially with the "obvious" evidence that the guy they've been working for is not what he looks like.

[dascarletm]

*Reads title.*

H - E - L - P.


Sorry...

But really silence + silent image is quite the combo. It makes sense that this dragon I summoned doesn't make any sound when you are all in an area of silence.

[GilesTheCleric]

0 - if you haven't rested yet and still have access to your spellpool, cast Chain of Eyes and scout out the entire place. Then heal up and get your spells back with more information. Augury could fit the same function if you're clever.

0.1 - make some knowledge checks. See if with a high enough check you can discover if the sorc has the sandform template, and thus find out what weapon type he is weak to. Alternatively, you might have to cast a Know Opponent once he's in sight (unless your GM will allow you to do it since you've already seen him once? If so, cast before regaining spells). Lore of the Gods will give you +5 and let you re-try know checks. If you haven't made the check yet, Guidance of the Avatar gives you +20. Wieldskill for +10 if you're untrained.

0.2 - if you can't do either of the above, summon an Unseen Crafter (day/lvl), and have it go to save the hostages/untie them once you're to that point. With str 2, it should be able to untie ropes. If you have magic items it can use, then that's more action economy for you, and one additional target that isn't you.

1 - remove the hostages from danger by putting them into danger. Cast Sweet Water, Column of Ice, or similar to effectively liberate them.

2 - kick in the door. Cast Rockburst with the castle near the hostages as your 8ft-cube, then drop in and defend from their position, or make a hasty escape. If you're going to be unable to do that, then you can still quickly get to the hostages as soon as you can see them with Knight's Move, assuming they're adjacent to each other.

3.cleric - neutralize the foes in one fell swoop. Without more info on the sand-sorc, it's hard to say what its antithesis might be. But clerics are always weak to the Dragon-Killer, so hit his full-plated heinie with a shivering touch. That just leaves you the sorc to fight, and he might not be invested enough to stop you.

3.sorc - neutralize the foes in one fell swoop. If the sorc is made of sand, it means he's susceptible to Control Sand (will) and Fuse Sand (reflex). Transmute Sand to X is a 5th level spell, unfortunately. If your GM plays a bit more fast-and-loose, then any sort of water or wind spell might work as well.

4.sorc - trick the foes into not being foes. If the sorc is made of sand, you might be able to cast Whispering Sand and talk with him, then pretend to be [other entity], either one you've learned about via knowledge/divination, or one you hope is going to work, such as an informant, a superior, or a friend.

5.cleric - trick the foes into not being foes. Mundane disguise+skill check boosts (see above).

5 - infiltrate. Veil of Shadow, Meld into Stone, Soul of the Waste, Stone Shape, Elf Disguise, Iron Silence, Safety (if when you enter you cannot leave), or similar.

[Chilxius]

Perhaps Silent Image(1), Mirror Image(2), and Displacement (3).

See if the DM will allow your mirror images to benefit from your displacement, but even if not, you have all that plus silent images of you. The silent images will be out front, and when one gets hit, you can pull some 'turns into sand' nonsense and make your enemies as confused as you were.

I'm also a fan of Spectral Hand(2).

A ranged ghoul touch(2) could be handy if it works early on, plus it's a fort save which won't be the best for a cleric and should be awful for a sorcerer. Even chill touch(1) does strength damage on a failed fort save, so if your options are running out that's a spell that lasts for a while and, with SpecHand, is ranged.

And I agree with Glitterdust(2).

[Chronos]

This refresh-zone right outside the boss room-- Does it leave your buffs intact? It might be viable to spend all of your slots on buffs, refresh them, and then cast yet more buffs on top (a trick I used for hard fights in the old Dark Sun: Shattered Lands game).

[Rubik]

Make sure the MotAO has access to Benign Transposition. Share it with his familiar to teleport the two hostages to safety, first thing (one in place of you, and the other your familiar). That way, they're safe before anything else.

[Metahuman1]

This refresh-zone right outside the boss room-- Does it leave your buffs intact? It might be viable to spend all of your slots on buffs, refresh them, and then cast yet more buffs on top (a trick I used for hard fights in the old Dark Sun: Shattered Lands game).

I don't know. Were gonna find out next session. I think however the idea was we've been going so long our buffs are on fumes of the one's left up, so the idea was to give us a chance to go in with restored buffs.

I do know Benign Transposition, but I don't have a familiar (Gave it up to use the Haunted Flaw to get a bonus feat since we started at low level for this game.). So, not sure that works sadly.

[Rubik]

I do know Benign Transposition, but I don't have a familiar (Gave it up to use the Haunted Flaw to get a bonus feat since we started at low level for this game.). So, not sure that works sadly.Then use BT to pull one out, and if the two are together, Dimension Door back out with the other one?

[Sith_Happens]

Tip on Silence if you decide to go with it: Casting it on either of the villains them a Will save to negate, while casting it on a point in space lets them move out of it. Instead, cast it in advance on a something small and sticky to throw at one of them (the cleric will be easier to hit since it'll be touch attack, but the sorcerer's probably the one you'd rather have not casting).

Alternative 2nd level spell, this use of which is a bit on the cheesy side so maybe check with your DM that it won't get an on-the-spot patch: Dimension Leap (Magic of Eberron), 10 feet/level teleport. The part that's of interest in this situation is that it (a) lets you bring along touched objects and (b) has "Saving Throw: None" instead of the usual "Saving Throw: None or Will negates (object)." Successfully touch the MacGuffin while you cast this and it's yours.:smallcool:

[Metahuman1]

Tip on Silence if you decide to go with it: Casting it on either of the villains them a Will save to negate, while casting it on a point in space lets them move out of it. Instead, cast it in advance on a something small and sticky to throw at one of them (the cleric will be easier to hit since it'll be touch attack, but the sorcerer's probably the one you'd rather have not casting).

Alternative 2nd level spell, this use of which is a bit on the cheesy side so maybe check with your DM that it won't get an on-the-spot patch: Dimension Leap (Magic of Eberron), 10 feet/level teleport. The part that's of interest in this situation is that it (a) lets you bring along touched objects and (b) has "Saving Throw: None" instead of the usual "Saving Throw: None or Will negates (object)." Successfully touch the MacGuffin while you cast this and it's yours.:smallcool:

I'm presently torn between Silence and Shivering Touch. A lot of it's gonna rest on if I can negotiate something with the DM to get Spectral Hand cast via Mage of the Arcane Order first in conjunction with my lesser rod of extend in order to Have it ready before the fight starts, and still get something worked out to get Shivering Touch active, (If the refresh site will let me do that or if the DM will let me offer something else to get it to work. Maybe the refresh site will let me re-heal and I can offer to suck up some HP damage for the trouble.) or not.

If I can, I'm thinking my plan will be to drop Extend (via rod.) spectral Hand, hide it in none important haversack or something, and toss it too them after readying an action, and the second it pops out, Cast shivering touch while it's literally in the midst of going for it's attack. (If possible I'm also gonna see if the DM will allow it to be effected by Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, or both, and I'm gonna use another Rod charge to extend it again.). And try to take out the cleric as fast as humanly possible. Then move on to her underling, who could get Problematic in a hurry in her own right in a few different ways. Then see about taking out the sorcerer because, well, sorcerer. Though I fear he's got a spell or Item or Template that's gonna make him immune to ability score damage. Or something to give him an outrageous touch AC.



But that all depends on my ability to get the DM to throw me a bone on Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch.




Apart form that, on Silence, question. Can I target an item there wearing (armor or robes or the like.), and still deny them there will save to resist?



In case it sounds odd that I'm so focused on taking out the 3-4 Ring Leaders, starting with the casters, my logic is like this. If I can cripple them right at the get go, the rest of the party, which features several people who are heavy on stealth and 2 members with swordsage levels, can likely snag the hostages and the Macguffin in the chaos of the first round, while the rest Blitz the 3 really dangerous casters and the more dangerous Mundanes and give them a beat down while there crippled.

Then we have to Mop Up, sure, but, we have Hostages clear, we have Macguffin secured, we have the biggest threats in the room out of play, so we have a fight on our hands, but it's a winnable fight as opposed to a ritual suicide which is exactly what it's gonna be if we let them leverage the Macguffin and/or the Hostages, and/or let the ring leaders bring there magic advantage fully to bare.

[Janthkin]

Apart form that, on Silence, question. Can I target an item there wearing (armor or robes or the like.), and still deny them there will save to resist? Nope. Attended items get saving throws (that of the wearer/wielder).

[Metahuman1]

Second question. Could I cast Silence on the Soverine Glue (Yeah I'm sure I miss spelled it I'm posting form a phone right now.). Inside a container of it, and then throw/let another character poor it on the person I wanted to nail with silence, and thus leave them in a situation of needing a universal solvent to get it out again with out risking them getting a save?

[Rubik]

Second question. Could I cast Silence on the Soverine Glue (Yeah I'm sure I miss spelled it I'm posting form a phone right now.). Inside a container of it, and then throw/let another character poor it on the person I wanted to nail with silence, and thus leave them in a situation of needing a universal solvent to get it out again with out risking them getting a save?I imagine so, though tanglefoot bags would be a lot cheaper.

[Metahuman1]

Except I already have the Glue form a few sessions back, but we don't have tanglefoot bags.


Though there's a story related bit of Irony to the glue that would be added on. (Got it as a quest reward from one of the now hostage NPC's. Karma's like that sometimes.)

[Rubik]

Except I already have the Glue form a few sessions back, but we don't have tanglefoot bags.


Though there's a story related bit of Irony to the glue that would be added on. (Got it as a quest reward from one of the now hostage NPC's. Karma's like that sometimes.)You could hit it with Silence, cast True Strike, and try to bean one of the enemy casters in the face.

[Metahuman1]

You could hit it with Silence, cast True Strike, and try to bean one of the enemy casters in the face.

That's exactly what I needed to know. Except my plan might instead be

1: Cast Extended Silence (Rod of extend spell on it.)

2: Stuff in a bag of holding and Hand to the Ranger.

3: Have Wizard ready an action to True Strike.

4: Use Dimension Leap to snag the hostages and/or the Macguffin behind the beatsticks.

5: Have that be the pre-agreed upon Cue for the ranger to go full attacking with a True Strike, beaning as many casters in the face with the stuff as possible to cripple as many of them as possible, hopefully all of them, within the first round of combat.

[Janthkin]

Silence already lasts min/level; if the fight lasts more than 5 minutes, you're likely dead (though if you end up running, the extra few minutes might be very welcome). True Strike, meanwhile, is range "Personal," and only lasts for the next single attack roll (made before the end of the next round).

I have no idea what happens if the single object target of a spell is then split (smeared) into multiple objects, which seems to be what you're suggesting.

[Metahuman1]

Evidently, as long as the containers could all be reasonably held in one hand at the same time, there treated as three objects and it goes along at that. At least according to the DM. (Whom I just bounced the idea off of. Though he might have only liked it cause he loves the idea of the Irony of a gift from the hostages to us being the undoing of there captors.)

Anyway, the reason to extend it is that I could see 1 of 2 things happening. Either a prolonged build up to the fight form when I get the last opportunity to cast it with out tipping my hand to them in universe, as the saying goes, meaning I don't get to keep them crippled long enough for what could very well be a long fight to get them out of it. OR, they bale and make it a 2 phase fight and by the time phase 2 has started, it's worn off, so they have fewer mooks, but were worn down again and they have all there spells now.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you want to hit someone with a bunch of silenced sovereign glue/ other item, look at the Launch Item spell from MoF. SR: no, save: no, and attack roll: no. Also it's Long-ranged, and sorc lvl 1.

[Metahuman1]

Which book is MoF? Magic of Fearune?

[GilesTheCleric]

You are correct. Page 105.

[NeoPhoenix0]

There is a reprint of launch item in the spell compendium. splash weapons require an attack roll and the range is reduced to medium range