Scout build

[Woot Spitum]

I'm starting a new campaign with my group, and have settled on the Scout class. I've never played a Scout before, and would like some tips on building one. We're playing a planar travel focused campaign, so any build with a flavorful race would be nice. Air mephling with the air heritage feat is my initial choice, but I'm open to suggestions. Any tactical tips you might have would also be appreciated.

[Indon]

Scouts are, in my opinion, a more capable, down-to-earth kind of ranger. You'll get no spells or animal companion, but instead you get other useful things like Skirmish.

Something I can't stress enough for your scout to do is actually _scout_. They have just about all the scouting goodness of a ranger, and if you find a group of hostiles, you can leave the area, doing good harassment damage as you lead them back to the deathtrap that is the rest of your party.

One specific suggestion I'll make is that you should get the Dash feat; it increases your base move by an additional 5 feet, and movement is nice for a scout.

[Woot Spitum]

I forgot to mention, this campaign starts at level 8. Also, what book is dash from?

[JellyPooga]

Well, there's two (constructive) schools of thought regarding the Scout. The first is Melee, the second is Ranged.

Melee - This one revolves around a single feat: Spring Attack. 'nuff said.

Ranged - This one revolves around a single feat: Manyshot. 'nuff said.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Don't, whatever you do, bother with TWF 'cos you'll be wasting your time.

Race: Well, if you're playing Planar travel, pretty much any Planetouched is more-or-less the norm. For Scout I'd reccommend Tiefling or Air Genasi (for Int [skills] and Dex [everything else]...Tiefling comes with some handy Resistances [good for unexpected environments] and Air Genasi can Levitate [useful in odd situations] ).

Tactical Tips: Don't stand still. Simple as. As soon as you get bogged down, you'll die. Not as quickly as a Rogue that's bogged, but your survival prospects will rapidly diminish.

[PinkysBrain]

Melee - This one revolves around a single feat: Spring Attack. 'nuff said.
This is a supremely bad idea.

Ranged - This one revolves around a single feat: Manyshot. 'nuff said.
Greater manyshot actually.

The amount of skirmish damage is substantially less than a rogue gets sneak attack damage, it is crucial to make the most of it ... if you can't regularly get skirmish damage on a full attack then you are going to be doing very little damage period (never a good idea).

Don't, whatever you do, bother with TWF 'cos you'll be wasting your time.
Getting pounce or extra move actions are the only worthwhile way to build a melee scout ... if you can get either of those TWF becomes interesting.

[JellyPooga]

This is a supremely bad idea.

I never said it was an optimal one...jsut one of the schools of thought.


Greater manyshot actually.

Yeah, Greater Manyshot is better, but Manyshot will do.


Getting pounce or extra move actions are the only worthwhile way to build a melee scout ... if you can get either of those TWF becomes interesting.

True, but there are few ways to aquire Pounce and/or extra move actions. Probably better sticking to staying out of harms way and being a skill-monkey.

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, dervish would help twf, or thf, so I think Dervish woud be a good PRC, if you don't mind losing some skillfulness and some of your later ablities. And if you go psionic, elocator might give so more options and bonuses(though you want to wiegh what your missing).

[PinkysBrain]

True, but there are few ways to aquire Pounce and/or extra move actions. Probably better sticking to staying out of harms way and being a skill-monkey.
The rogue does it better.

[Ramza00]

Yeah, Greater Manyshot is better, but Manyshot will do.

Manyshot won't do unless all 3/4 arrows are targeting different targets for precision damage is only applied once with manyshot (it applies to each arrow with G Manyshot). Regardless you don't want to use manyshot against multiple people, you want to bring down single targets as fast as possible.

Let say we have 4 goblins with 45 hitpoints due to class levels. Lets say you do 3 attacks each doing 15 damage. It is better to focus all 3 arrows on one goblin at a time, thus killing it, and thus having less monsters attack you (reducing potential harm to your being, aka reducing risk) than attacking 3 goblins with 15 damage per round.

The only time it is more advantageous to fire each arrow at a different goblin is if your arrows have an ability that affects the goblin's status/abilities/mobility.

[Ramza00]

Originally Posted by JellyPooga http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2411125#post2411125)
True, but there are few ways to aquire Pounce and/or extra move actions. Probably better sticking to staying out of harms way and being a skill-monkey.

The rogue does it better.
The rogue also does the twf charge/pounce better. Neraph Charge summary from the planar handbook.

Neraph Charge
Pre Reqs:Wis 15, Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks
Camouflage your charge attack so foe loses Dex bonus to AC (thus sneak attackable)

You can't use the Neraph Charge against the same target twice, but you can use it against different people in the same group. (Thus it isn't good for BBEG/Reaccuring people if you can't kill the target after the pounce charge you are going to die regardless of rogue or scout, you can though in theory take the ambush feat that allows you to sack 4d6 sneak attack for the ability to sneak attack in a future round).

---------------------------

Skrimish Archers Scout 3/Ranger 17 is where the Scout shines.

[Woot Spitum]

To be clearer, I'm going to do a ranged Scout.

[Ramza00]

To be clearer, I'm going to do a ranged Scout.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=778312

And the links inside that link.

Also search archer, and arrow in this link
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482636

[Deel]

Alternatively, if you wanted to go with more scout over ranger for some reason(which I did when making this, I can see ranger spells being nice, but sometimes it just seems so tacked on for a character who otherwise shouldn't be casting spells), here is a fairly nice Hail of Arrows build focusing primarily on scout:

Ranger 2/Scout 18
1 - Point Blank Shot
2 - Rapid Shot(CS)
3 - Dead Eye
6 - Swift Hunter, Precise Shot(Scout Bonus)
9 - Manyshot
10 - Far Shot(Scout Bonus)
12 - Greater Manyshot
14 - Ranged Skirmish(Scout Bonus)
15 - Woodland Archer
18 - -, Improved Skirmisher(Scout Bonus)

Dead Eye is the Dragon Magazine feat that lets you apply your dex modifier to damage on ranged attacks, so you can dump into strength as long as you aren't carrying much, and Ranged Skirmish means you can skirmish from 60ft from the enemy instead of 30.

Ranger 2 is for rapid shot, and getting track and favored enemies with swift hunter. Scout up to 18 for the nice freedom of movement ability, you only lose out on blindsight and a little fort/init boost, easily made up for with favored enemies and the ability to not have to waste a feat on rapid shot. 18th feat slot is open for whatever you want.

[Indon]

Does Spring Attack apply only to melee attacks? If it applies to ranged as well, I can see a tactical value in having it.

[squishycube]

Well, dervish would help twf, or thf, so I think Dervish woud be a good PRC, if you don't mind losing some skillfulness and some of your later ablities. And if you go psionic, elocator might give so more options and bonuses(though you want to weigh what your missing).

QFT, but as you will play a ranged scout the Dervish idea is pretty much out. Elocator is a very nice and flavourful class, which coincidentally also gets a class feature that compliments the scout very well: it gets a second five foot step for free at level seven. It also gives you an ability which functions very much like freedom of movement.

[Ramza00]

BAB is very important, it will allow an extra attack in. Thus even if Ranger didn't get spells or an animal companion, it would still have that advantage over scout. Scout only has choosing your own bonus feats (which isn't that good since the Ranger feats are still grand), 2 more skill points per level, and the blindsense and stuff (which you can get via items, yes items cost money, but the Ranger stuff is worth the money)

Note if you have the magic item compedium then the Belt of Battle is a great magic item for a ranged scout (as well as an arcanist, melee, or skill junkie).


Belt of Battle for 12,000 gp you get 3 charges per day
Activation is 1 swift action
1 charge yields 1 move action
2 charges yield 1 standard action
3 charges yield a full round action.

With no attunement time changes it alot. Good for melee and magic. 2 charges yielding a standard action that makes it a lot cheaper than a metamagic rod of quicken (which costs 35,000 gp (lesser), 75,500 gp (normal), 170,000 gp (greater))
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=830022
You can have multiple items (which you switch out after battle) and thus more than 3 times a day exchange a swift action for a move action or another standard action.
------------------------------------

With this item you can do this in battle.

Option A
Round 1)

Normal Move Action thus get skirmish
Normal Standard Action shoot 4 arrows with Greater Manyshot becomes 8 arrows due to splitting enchantment
Belt of Battle (Swift Action uses 2 charges to get Standard Action) Greater Manyshot becomes 8 arrows due to splitting enchantment
Total Arrows fired per round 16, all get skirmish (which is 7d6 due to Scout 3/Ranger 17+Improved Skirmish)Round 2)

Belt of Battle (Swift Action uses 1 charges to get Move Action, all charges for Belt are gone) Move Action thus gets skirmish
Normal Full Round Action shooting 6 arrows (4 from BAB, 1 from Haste, 1 from Rapidshot)*2 due to splitting
Total Arrows fired per round 12, all get skirmish (which is 7d6 due to Scout 3/Ranger 17+Improved Skirmish)Round 3 and all future rounds)

Normal Move Action thus get skirmish
Normal Standard Action shoot 4 arrows with Greater Manyshot becomes 8 arrows due to splitting enchantment
Total Arrows fired per round 8, all get skirmish (which is 7d6 due to Scout 3/Ranger 17+Improved Skirmish)Option B
Round 1-3)

Belt of Battle (Swift Action uses 1 charges to get Move Action) Move Action thus gets skirmish
Normal Full Round Action shooting 6 arrows (4 from BAB, 1 from Haste, 1 from Rapidshot)*2 due to splitting
Total Arrows fired per round 12, all get skirmish (which is 7d6 due to Scout 3/Ranger 17+Improved Skirmish)
After round 3 you are out of charges for the belt thus

Round 4+)

Normal Move Action thus get skirmish
Normal Standard Action shoot 4 arrows with Greater Manyshot becomes 8 arrows due to splitting enchantment
Total Arrows fired per round 8, all get skirmish (which is 7d6 due to Scout 3/Ranger 17+Improved Skirmish)

[Rakeesh]

It seems to me that the utility of Spring Attack depends entirely on the terrain being fought in, and how much the DM pays attention to the terrain. In my (limited) experience, terrain for the purposes of movement and Balance checks is something that is frequently overlooked in the name of speed and efficiency of DMing. If you've got one character in a party of four, or two in a party of six or more, with ranks in balance, there's a certain sense to kind of just setting that sort of thing aside, but it really sticks it to the people who do put ranks in that skill, and who take feats that increase maneuverability.

[PinkysBrain]

It seems to me that the utility of Spring Attack depends entirely on the terrain being fought in, and how much the DM pays attention to the terrain.
How so? It only gets worse in bad terrain ... since it's already a very poor feat to begin with it doesn't seem to matter much to me.

[Woot Spitum]

Sadly, I don't have the magic item compendium, or the Complete Scoundrel. I do have, besides core and PHB II, the four original complete books (warrior, arcane, divine, adventurer) the races of stone, wild, and destiny books,the expanded psionics handbook, the planar handbook, and manual of the planes. I also have Sandstorm, Frostburn, and Stormwrack, and Tome of Magic. I don't have Tome of Battle.

[Deel]

Ah, the BAB thing makes sense. Maybe go Ranger 4/Scout 16, fiddle with the feats a little and you end up with 4 attacks, and at 4th level you can pick up a animal companion if you want, though if you are going with Greater Manyshot, Distracting Attack from PHBII may be better, you can flank as many enemies as you have shots like that, which is essentially all your animal companion would help with.

I'm just more for the Scout than the Ranger, spells seem tacked on for someone who is mainly a stealthy scouting archer.

Regardless of comboination, if you choose swift hunter, do not forget that it lets favored enemies be affected by skirmish, so choose undead/plants/oozes/constructs/elementals for, which is the main purpose of the dip for a primarily scout build.

[Ramza00]

If you do Scout 4/Ranger 16 you have two good times to do it. Using Scout 4 to get Swift Hunter asap, or use it after Ranger 14 (when you get 4th lvl spells)

[Ramza00]

Sadly, I don't have the magic item compendium, or the Complete Scoundrel. I do have, besides core and PHB II, the four original complete books (warrior, arcane, divine, adventurer) the races of stone, wild, and destiny books,the expanded psionics handbook, the planar handbook, and manual of the planes. I also have Sandstorm, Frostburn, and Stormwrack, and Tome of Magic. I don't have Tome of Battle.

Really great selection of books, for almost all builds, except the one you are trying to do. :smallfrown:

If I can think of something more I will mention it :smallsmile:

[Woot Spitum]

Any particular reason to go with Ranger over Fighter (or even barbarian, for fast movement)? Also, what would the progression look like at level eight?

[Indon]

There's a feat in Complete Scoundrel that allows Ranger levels to stack with Scout levels for determining your Skirmish level. That's why you'd be a Scout/Ranger or Scout/Rogue (there's another feat for this).

[Ramza00]

Two Great Skirmisher Feats in Complete Scoundrel.

Swift Hunter: Ranger+Scouts lvl stack for Skirmish, Favored Enemy, and you can apply Skirmish Damage to your Favored Enemies even they are normally immune to Precision Damage.
Improved Skirmish: Move 20 feet to gain an additional +2d6 points of damage, +2 AC to your skirmish

Both feats can be taken as a Scout Bonus Feats.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=4

[Rakeesh]

How so? It only gets worse in bad terrain ... since it's already a very poor feat to begin with it doesn't seem to matter much to me.

Depending on one's levels in Scout, you get to move at your normal rate through all nonmagical terrain. This means that depending on the terrain, a Scout will be able to move anywhere from 1.3x faster than his opponent (assuming no fast movement on their part), to 2.6x faster or even more than their opponent. With Spring Attack, this means that (for example), the Scout can move at their full rate (anywhere from 10-20' better than their enemies, terrain aside, before movement enhancing effects) from a position of greater or even total safety (in the case of cover and hampering terrain), out into the opponent's area, strike the opponent for greater damage, and retreat back into the safety zone without ever even offering a chance to be hit.

[Woot Spitum]

Thanks for the link.

Hah! Now I don't need the Complete Scoundrel.

[PinkysBrain]

Rakeesh, no risk except for readied actions of course. You are getting into melee without tieing down an enemy, taking more risks than you would have to take making ranged attacks ... and doing less damage while doing so. (Next to none.) Spring attack is double plus bad.

[Deel]

Here's slightly different version of what I posted above, a mainly scout skirmishing archer setups:

Ranger 6/Scout 14
1 - Point Blank Shot
2 - Rapid Shot(CS)
3 - Dead Eye
6 - Manyshot(CS), Precise Shot
9 - Greater Manyshot
10 - Swift Hunter(Scout Bonus)
12 - Far Shot
14 - Ranged Skirmisher(Scout Bonus)
15 - Woodland Archer
18 - [insert feat of choice here], Improved Skirmisher(Scout Bonus)

I am using the non-caster variant from complete warrior for an extra 10ft movement at level 6 on ranger as well, since this was intended for a non-caster character, but if you want 1 level 1 spell, go for it, also staying to level 6 for earlier Greater Manyshot(bumped down to level 9.) Ends with +16 BAB, all you need.

Ranged Skirmisher prereqs are 13 Wis, 13 Dex, Far Shot, and Point Blank Shot, I believe, and Dead Eye is just 13 Dex or 13 Dex and Point Blank Shot.

Edit: errr... there's two greater manyshots there, put whatever you want at 12th level, maybe bump Far Shot down there and pick up ranged skirmisher at 14.

[Annarrkkii]

I resent the implication that TWF Scouts are useless. Grab a trio of Master Thrower levels and you can lob 4 knives as a standard action, each dealing skirmish damage. Add in a pouncing ability, and you can be quite effective in melee as well. Halflings, of course, excel most at this built, since strength doesn't contribute, and Halfling Paragon can add another 8 damage per round, as well as some useful athletic prowess and save bonuses.

Melee Scouts are a bad idea. Spring Attack is just prancing back and forth. Unless you have a speed of more than 100 ft., you really aren't going to be doing much besides setting yourself up for a charge each round, and exposing yourself to enemy ranging or spellslinging back-liners. A halfling in heavy armor can charge you if you have no more than 40 ft. speed, and enemies that fight in a formation will impale you as you try to scamper around, even with your AC bonuses.

As I feel is my duty, I will advise you to explore the Tome of Battle if you want to build an effective Scout. Grab Karmic Strike, Evasive Reflexes, and Snap Kick, and whenever an opponent attacks, you can five-foot step, setting you up for another 5 ft. step on your turn to achieve skirmish damage. Then, you can open up with a full attack, with each blow deal skirmish damage. This works even better with Robilar's Gambit, at much higher levels, where your Skirmish bonus offset the penalties of the gambit.

If you want to Spring Attack, despite my council, grab Snap Kick, at least, so you can hit twice for skirmish damage. You have to burn a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike, but its worth it.

WHILE you are in Tome of Battle, check out a level or two of Swordsage at mid levels. You can make up for the lost skirmish progression with Improved Skirmish, and the dab into ToB for Child of Shadow and a few Desert Wind moves is well worth it.

EDIT: And Sidestep Charge might actually be a worthwhile feat, as well, come to think of it, for a Spring Attacker.

[PinkysBrain]

Grab a trio of Master Thrower levels and you can lob 4 knives as a standard action, each dealing skirmish damage.
I'm assuming you mean combining double toss with palm throw? If so palm throw is a single attack, and you get skirmish damage per attack ... which is to say only twice in this case.

[Annarrkkii]

Fine. With only 2 x skirmish damage then! Just make sure you poison all 4. I'm a personal fan of throwing axes, myself.

[Rakeesh]

Rakeesh, no risk except for readied actions of course. You are getting into melee without tieing down an enemy, taking more risks than you would have to take making ranged attacks ... and doing less damage while doing so. (Next to none.) Spring attack is double plus bad.

You're assuming that you're looking at a strictly 1vs.1 situation. That's not remotely what Scouts are designed for. When you expect to be fighting on even terms and fighting on a 1:1 ratio, you send in your Heavy Infantry or your Heavy Cavalry, not your skirmishers or scouts, right?

[Enzario]

If you happen to go Human for that extra feat, or maybe take flaws, I would get dodge/mobility. As a scout, your primary damage-dealing capacity depends on being able to move around, and things could get nasty if something gets past the tank to melee with you.

[Rakeesh]

Speaking of flaws, where can I go to find the flaws and the benefits afforded by taking them? I haven't found them on crystal keep, or in any of the basic sourcebooks I own.

[Matthew]

For a Single Classed Melee Scout with a 28 Point Buy Build, I think I would end up going with something like:

Human Scout 1, AB 0(2), AC 16, HP 10,
Strength 14, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 12, Charisma 10,
Skills: Search 4(5), Spot 4(5), Listen 4(5), Sneak 4(4), Hide 4(4), Climb 4(4), Leap 4(4), Swim 4(2), Knowledge (Nature) 4(5), Knowledge (Dungeons) 4(5),
Feats: Dodge, Mobility,
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Long Spear, Short Bow, Short Sword, Dagger,

Scout 2:
Scout 3: Spring Attack,
Scout 4: Scout Bonus Feat,
Scout 5:
Scout 6: Power Attack,
Scout 7:
Scout 8: Scout Bonus Feat
Scout 9: Cleave

and maybe Leap Attack somewhere
General strategy would be to stay behind the Fighter type and support him with Spring Attack. It ain't great, but it's the best I can think of.

[Deel]

Flaws can be found here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

Very good if your DM will allow them, extra feats are always nice, just try to actual have them make some sense for your character. Non-combatant and vulnerable are nice for an archer, even for character reasons.

[PinkysBrain]

You're assuming that you're looking at a strictly 1vs.1 situation. That's not remotely what Scouts are designed for. When you expect to be fighting on even terms and fighting on a 1:1 ratio, you send in your Heavy Infantry or your Heavy Cavalry, not your skirmishers or scouts, right?
So instead of not damaging a single powerful opponent and not tieing him down you are now not damaging a single mook out of a pack of mooks, nor tieing any of them down. I fail to see how that improves matters.

In a mook scenario you are even better off with a bow ... you can only ever kill a single opponent with spring attack.

[Rakeesh]

Huh? Who ever said anything about not damaging anyone? You're not making sense, man. Earlier, it sounded like you were focusing on a strictly one-on-one fight. That's all I was talking about. The enemy you can attack can either try to focus on you, opening himself up for serious hurting from others, or he can choose not to...leaving you open to whale on him for free once each round, or switch targets as they come up.

[PinkysBrain]

Not doing damage was meant as hyperbole ("wailing" is a bit of hyperbole too BTW). A single melee attack from a scout doesn't do real damage ... granted it's not nothing, it's not significant either. If the enemy has any other party member he can easily reach he will never target you, you are not a significant threat to him.

You are not attacking him for free, when you use spring attack you are giving up the option to do more damage for less risk ... which is to say picking up a bow.

[Annarrkkii]

Get Snap Kick! It lets you hit twice off your Spring Attacks. Even if it DOES cost Improved Unarmed Strike, it's worth it.

Barbarian multiclass can be an option for scouts, as well. The fast movement doesn't stack, I don't think, but Raging is often helpful to add some punch to your skirmishes, and the d12s never go amiss.

[Rakeesh]

You are not attacking him for free, when you use spring attack you are giving up the option to do more damage for less risk ... which is to say picking up a bow.

This part at least is true enough, and I agree with you. When I said 'free' I meant 'free from counterattack'. Also, a high-level scout with a good weapon (particularly if your DM is gracious enough to let you add a feature that increases skirmishing damage) can put a pretty good dent in anyone, I think. You're not going to be one-shotting them, it's true, or even three-shotting them, but it's not insignifigant either. You can also, with spring attack, help your party get a flanking bonus on a variety of targets. It also permits you to take greater advantage of, say, Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, that sort of thing. You're never going to be a prime damage dealer...well, you could be if you wanted to, but why not just be a Ranger if you're looking to shell out lots and lots of arrows for more damage?

[PinkysBrain]

You can also, with spring attack, help your party get a flanking bonus on a variety of targets.
How do you figure that exactly? They ready an action to wait for you to come running by or something? Even if they only have a standard action that is still a bad idea a lot of the time (taking a readied action essentially loses you time, because you are moving yourself back in the initiative order).

It also permits you to take greater advantage of, say, Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, that sort of thing.I don't see it.

You're never going to be a prime damage dealerSo just because other classes can do more damage you give up and make your character jump through elaborate hoops (it's a long feat chain) just to make him even less effective? How does that make sense?

why not just be a Ranger if you're looking to shell out lots and lots of arrows for more damage?You have more skills than a ranger and a different set of class abilities. Why not play to your strengths instead of just being weak for no good reason?

[Rakeesh]

The relevance of moving back in the initiative order is directly linked to how long the fight will last. If it's going to be a short fight, then obviously this backwards movement will be more serious.

You get to take more advantage of the kinds of feats I described because you can apply them to a wider range of potential targets. Unlike, say, Rothgar the Barbarian, the Scout can (more quickly than the Rogue, too) maneuver away from the heavy infantry guy, and go trip up the archer behind him. Maybe to give the rest of the party time to get ready, I don't know, a variety of options.

For someone that is going to be tumbling a lot, Mobility is a pretty useful feat, I think. Hardly a useless feat. And Dodge is always nice.

You have a whopping two extra skill points per level, and for that you lose spellcasting, free combat oriented bonus feats and tracking feats, weapon and armor proficiencies, and an animal companion. It's hardly the even trade you seem to be hinting at. If you want one of your character's strengths to be: dealing big damage in combat, I suggest you would be better suited to playing a ranger if you want to go ranged. And I've already listed a host of reasons why.

[PinkysBrain]

maneuver away from the heavy infantry guy, and go trip up the archer behind him.
Because there are so many archers without manyshot? (ie. they don't lose much by losing a move action.) If you are not there to AoO for extra damage then tripping is only really useful against melee targets ... who you have a fat chance in hell of tripping most of the time.

Disarm is semi-useful, but again mostly against full BAB opponents who have the upper hand in that respect. Ranged disarm is also a lot better of course.

For someone that is going to be tumbling a lot, Mobility is a pretty useful feat, I think.Until you can meet the fixed DCs.

You have a whopping two extra skill points per levelAlso a much larger set of class skills.

If you want one of your character's strengths to be: dealing big damage in combat, I suggest you would be better suited to playing a ranger if you want to go ranged. And I've already listed a host of reasons why.
If you want one of your character's weaknesses to be that he is almost useless in combat encounters use spring attack.

[Rakeesh]

Let the archers have manyshot...you can still maneuver behind cover and be as safe as safe can be from Manyshot...assuming your enemies have it, something which isn't a given when you're talking about bad guys until you get to higher levels.

As for trip, well I was also talking improved trip, so you've got a better shot right there. Depending on what type of weapon you're using, a much better shot, of course.

You can't meet the fixed DCs until a minimum of (for most characters) level 8 (11 ranks in Tumble, +4 Dex modifier). And that's just for one enemy you're passing by. And that's not taking into account the chance of a 1, in which case Mobility helps.

Sure, you get a larger set of class skills...by, like...*counts* no more than two or three skills. Hardly much larger, and one of them is Speak Language! Now, there's a skill (particularly at high levels) designed almost exclusively for RP and fluff, not for combat-style damage utility.

This argument is getting kind of tiresome. Yes, I freely admit that a Scout is not going to be nearly as damage-dealing as, say, a Fighter, Barbarian, Wizard, or the other core classes. But not useless. I've illustrated, like, three ways in which Spring Attack can be useful in combat situations where other feats aren't useful. You choose to act as though I haven't mentioned them, or your rebuttals aren't really addressing the points I make equals a pretty wearying conversation. So, we disagree. You believe Spring Attack is an all-but-useless feat, I believe it is a feat not nearly as useful as many other combat feats, but far from useless.

[Mr. Moogle]

All of you are forgetting a core feat which i have founD SUPREMELY useful for a Scout its called :furious: MOBILITY

[Rakeesh]

Who forgot it? It's been mentioned, like, five times in the past three posts.

[PinkysBrain]

Let the archers have manyshot...you can still maneuver behind cover and be as safe as safe can be from Manyshot...
You are not alone in the world.

As for trip, well I was also talking improved trip, so you've got a better shot right there. Depending on what type of weapon you're using, a much better shot, of course.
Improved trip will give you even odds against strength based medium opponents. Weapons which give bonuses to trip are as few and far between ... that's like bringing up splitting for archers.

And that's not taking into account the chance of a 1, in which case Mobility helps.
You don't automatically fail on a 1 with skill checks.

Sure, you get a larger set of class skills...by, like...*counts* no more than two or three skills. Hardly much larger, and one of them is Speak Language! Now, there's a skill (particularly at high levels) designed almost exclusively for RP and fluff, not for combat-style damage utility.
So? Non combat encounters and challenges are a part of the game mechanics of D&D.

This argument is getting kind of tiresome. Yes, I freely admit that a Scout is not going to be nearly as damage-dealing as, say, a Fighter, Barbarian, Wizard, or the other core classes. But not useless.
That's grand of you, but it wasn't something I even brought up. I don't even care about the lack of damage. In the end battlefield control and damage are just means to an end. A spring attacking scout is good at keeping alive, but he is not good at helping his party.

At the end of the day he won't only not have done a lot of damage, he won't have prevented much damage either ... well maybe to himself, but not to his party members. Simply doing good damage by making a full attack capable build (ranged or melee) will help his party a lot more by finishing the encounter faster.

[Rakeesh]

Yes, you're not alone in the world...but for someone to come and get you in your cover requires them to detach from the rest of the combat to pursue you through the (hopefully bad) terrain, moving slowly. You can thus threaten nearly anyone else in the fight, and take that person effectively out of it as well.

If your scout has a strength of 10-11, then yes, chances are Improved Trip will give you even odds to succeed against either a Dex- or Str- character with a modifier of 18. That's generally speaking a PC level stat. If, however, your Scout has a strength bonus (which is not a bad idea, since they need to ensure they carry a light load at all times to take advantage of all sorts of things), the issue does not become even.

You don't automatically fail on a 1, that's true...at least in most games. Speaking anecdotally, in many games I've played a 1 counts as a failure, although not always a catastrophic failure. And anyway, until you get to at least level...six (9 ranks in Tumble, 4 from Dex, +2 from Jump)...you're not guaranteed a success on a 1, and that's just against one enemy, in perfectly even terrain.


In the end battlefield control and damage are just means to an end. A spring attacking scout is good at keeping alive, but he is not good at helping his party.

Your replies are pretty specious. I've addressed several ways already in which a Spring Attacking scount can effectively help his party.

[PinkysBrain]

Yes, you're not alone in the world...but for someone to come and get you in your cover requires them to detach from the rest of the combat to pursue you through the (hopefully bad) terrain, moving slowly. You can thus threaten nearly anyone else in the fight, and take that person effectively out of it as well.
But why would they do that if you are only a minor threat compared to the rest of your party? They would simply leave you to last.

If your scout has a strength of 10-11, then yes, chances are Improved Trip will give you even odds to succeed against either a Dex- or Str- character with a modifier of 18. That's generally speaking a PC level stat.
Ignoring the warrior mooks, the NPCs with PC classes will usually have the elite array and decent gear ... they aren't that far behind. If they are monstrous they will generally be ahead in fact. A race or template which adds an extra point or so of CR can make a big difference in stats. Tripping builds need to be very focused to stand much chance of success in campaigns where you don't fight mostly non monstrous opponents.

Your replies are pretty specious. I've addressed several ways already in which a Spring Attacking scount can effectively help his party.
The question is not whether he can help his party, the question is how much his help leaves to be desired compared to a full attack + skirmish capable scout. In the end only ever getting a single melee attack leaves a lot to be desired, however you apply it, after iterative attacks and haste come around ... bounding assault is too little too late.

[selfcritical]

This is a supremely bad idea.

Greater manyshot actually.

The amount of skirmish damage is substantially less than a rogue gets sneak attack damage, it is crucial to make the most of it ... if you can't regularly get skirmish damage on a full attack then you are going to be doing very little damage period (never a good idea).

Getting pounce or extra move actions are the only worthwhile way to build a melee scout ... if you can get either of those TWF becomes interesting.

The riposte(from cityscape)-robilar's gambit-karmic strike melee is another option worth looking at, but you better have a cleric or bard very good at buffing.

[Hurlbut]

Take Improved Skirmish from Complete Scoundrel if you can, an additional +2d6 Skirmish damage and +2 to AC if you move 20 feet.