Alternative Frenzy feature. Does it balance better?

[Totema]

In just about every game of 5e I've played, both as a DM and a player, every party barbarian has gone for the path of the totem over the path of the berserker, and generally it's been a mechanical choice boiling down to the fact that the frenzy feature just doesn't compare to any of the totem subclass' 3rd level features, particularly because it automatically slaps you with a level of exhaustion at the end. This doesn't sit well with me, so I came up with a different version that's more forgiving. I tried to model the exhaustion after how it's handled with a forced march. The result is this.

The Frenzy feature of the Path of the Berserker subclass reads as follows:
“Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, make a Constitution saving throw. The DC is 10 + the number of times you have frenzied since your last long rest. On a failed save, you suffer one level of exhaustion.”

I have an inkling that the DC is a little too low, but I'd like to get some feedback before testing and tweaking it if necessary. Thanks, all!

[Malifice]

I house ruled it to read as is but with the followong caveat: 'you may use Frenzy once per short rest without it causing a level of exhaustion.'

Balances it fine without finicky saves.

[Giant2005]

Frenzy is actually pretty damn powerful.
The Barbarian's DPR while Reckless Attacking is pretty much on par with everyone else but when you add Frenzy tot he mix, it leaves them in the dust in a big way.
The high price is seemingly a fair trade but I personally wouldn't be willing to pay it. Having said that, I think your price has gone too far the other way and Malifice's option is probably the better route (Plus gambling on abilities like that sucks - I'd rather know whether or not I'm going to be paying a price beforehand).

[Totema]

I house ruled it to read as is but with the followong caveat: 'you may use Frenzy once per short rest without it causing a level of exhaustion.'

Balances it fine without finicky saves. Seems a bit "obvious patch is obvious", but looks good otherwise. I'll play around with it myself.

[Malifice]

Frenzy is actually pretty damn powerful.
The Barbarian's DPR while Reckless Attacking is pretty much on par with everyone else but when you add Frenzy tot he mix, it leaves them in the dust in a big way.
The high price is seemingly a fair trade but I personally wouldn't be willing to pay it. Having said that, I think your price has gone too far the other way and Malifice's option is probably the better route (Plus gambling on abilities like that sucks - I'd rather know whether or not I'm going to be paying a price beforehand).

That was my logic too; it gives Barbarians a reason to rest and catch a breath with other martials.

They can still rage multiple times per SR; they just get the one frenzy per SR. They want more? Then they choose to pay the opportunity cost and suck for the rest of the day.

I'm not entirely persuaded that Frenzy is that good as written given the totality of the rules. The bonus action attack is great for sure, but I find most Barbs are GWM fighters, and that feat alone grants a bonus action attack most rounds anyways (in addition to its other benefits). Its totally obsolete on TWF Barbs. It only really works well with S and B Barbs.

[Totema]

Malifice, I just noticed something about your version. It doesn't scale at all. A 3rd level barby can frenzy just as often as a 20th level one before worrying about exhaustion.

[Kryx]

As Giant said the gwm barbarian is on the higher end of the damage scale. Throw in Frenzy and he does significantly more damage than any other class.

I modeled this on a graph in the warlock houserules thread.

I would be very cautious about making frenzy more powerful or cost less.

[Totema]

As Giant said the gwm barbarian is on the higher end of the damage scale. Throw in Frenzy and he does significantly more damage than any other class.

I modeled this on a graph in the warlock houserules thread.

I would be very cautious about making frenzy more powerful or cost less.

If none of my players are picking a subclass because of a particular mechanic, I feel like I should do something to make it more appealing. That's my goal.

[Ziegander]

Why not just cut out the bonus action requirement and add the extra attack right into the Attack action. Basically make it a Barbarian's "Extra Attack (2)" on the condition that he has to be raging to get it and he takes the exhaustion afterward? That way it works with all fighting styles.

[Malifice]

Malifice, I just noticed something about your version. It doesn't scale at all. A 3rd level barby can frenzy just as often as a 20th level one before worrying about exhaustion.

Not at all. A 20th level Barbarian can Frenzy 6 times per long rest/ day (assuming he gets a short rest in between each Frenzy) and suffer no exhaustion. Or he can Frenzy once and Rage 5 times in between short rests each long rest.

A 1st level Barbarian can only Frenzy twice per long rest (with a short rest in between). He can also Rage once and Frenzy once per long rest with no penalties.

You get one super rage per short rest. Barbarians get to assess a battle choose between 'normal' fighting, raging or entering God mode, knowing that if they go into God mode, they wont be able to do it again until they get a short rest without consequences.

As they advance in level, the number of rages per day (and thus frenzies per day) and the extra damage during those rages/ frenzies increase.


Why not just cut out the bonus action requirement and add the extra attack right into the Attack action. Basically make it a Barbarian's "Extra Attack (2)" on the condition that he has to be raging to get it and he takes the exhaustion afterward? That way it works with all fighting styles.

I'd could do that, but retain the exhaustion mechanic or its waaaay too strong. You'd be getting three great-sword attacks with advantage (and a damage bonus) at third level. Tacked onto half damage from most attacks in return, and advantage to all strength saves and its a worry.

And I really dislike the exhaustion mechanic. Its too crippling as written (only recovering on a long rest).

I originally HRd it to allow a Barbarian to recover a level of exhaustion on a SR, but ditched the concept as it required separate book keeping with exhaustion from other sources (and was wonky for other reasons).

Just seemed far more elegant to allow the first frenzy per short rest to not cause exhaustion. Start spamming it without taking a breather, and it will.

I was also considering tacking something else onto Frenzy to bring it up a notch (adv on Wisdom and/or Con saves due to your blind fury) and retain the exhaustion cost, but decided against it (and instead moved the advantage on Wis and Con saves while raging to be a general Barb class feature - called 'Insensate fury' - and gained in addition to the ASI at 19th level).

I made a few house rules to the Barb. An extra proficiency at 1st level, a fighting style (from protection, GWF, TWF and dueling) at 2nd level, allow rage bonus to damage with Strength based melee and ranged attacks, changed Frenzy to allow it to be used once per short rest without causing exhaustion, and added new class features at 13th level (die hard - advantage on checks to stabilize when on zero HP) and at 19th level (insensate fury - advantage on Wis and Con saves while raging) all in addition to what Barbs normally get at those levels.

I gave Fighters, Monks and Rangers some goodies too, reworded action surge to not allow a spell to be cast with the extra action, and made some pretty serious changes to the Paladin (scaling Smite damage with Paladin levels (from 2-6d8), and gaining uses per paladin level from 2-4, recharging on a short rest, and no longer requiring spell slots to use).

Working a charm.

[Giant2005]

Why not just cut out the bonus action requirement and add the extra attack right into the Attack action. Basically make it a Barbarian's "Extra Attack (2)" on the condition that he has to be raging to get it and he takes the exhaustion afterward? That way it works with all fighting styles.

That doesn't help the issue. The issue is the heavy cost for an already powerful ability.
Frenzying Barbarians already do more damage than everyone else - increasing their damage potential even higher doesn't solve anything.

[Kryx]

If none of my players are picking a subclass because of a particular mechanic, I feel like I should do something to make it more appealing. That's my goal.
I very much agree with this goal. However you need to balance the new approach (which you are doing by asking about it in this thread).

If you're going to make frenzy less costly then you need to make it less effective otherwise the frenzy barb can always dish out his frenzy damage which is crazy.

I have no solutions to suggest, just math.

http://i.imgur.com/Ki93UcR.png

[Malifice]

I very much agree with this goal. However you need to balance the new approach (which you are doing by asking about it in this thread).

If you're going to make frenzy less costly then you need to make it less effective otherwise the frenzy barb can always dish out his frenzy damage which is crazy.

I have no solutions to suggest, just math.

http://i.imgur.com/Ki93UcR.png

Can you cite the assumptions made in that chart?

In play, the bonus action extra attack from frenzy isnt that big a deal for GWM barbarians, who are getting the bonus action attack most rounds anyways (from either dropping a foe or from occasional critical hits).

Its more useful v BBEG Brute types granted, but next to worthless vs hordes of mooks who will generally be getting dropped in a single attack (or two at most) by virtue of taking 2d6+15 damage per round triggering the extra attack anyways.

[Strill]

Frenzy is actually pretty damn powerful.
The Barbarian's DPR while Reckless Attacking is pretty much on par with everyone else but when you add Frenzy tot he mix, it leaves them in the dust in a big way.
The high price is seemingly a fair trade but I personally wouldn't be willing to pay it. Having said that, I think your price has gone too far the other way and Malifice's option is probably the better route (Plus gambling on abilities like that sucks - I'd rather know whether or not I'm going to be paying a price beforehand).

You're not comparing that to the totem barbarian. Wolf Totem barbarian has the single biggest attack buff in the game. When you're raging, all melee allies get advantage on any enemy adjacent to you. That's an absolutely enormous boost to your party's damage. Even if Frenzy were free, it still wouldn't be as good. Making Frenzy free seems perfectly reasonable to me, and puts it right on par with the totem barbarian perks.


As Giant said the gwm barbarian is on the higher end of the damage scale. Throw in Frenzy and he does significantly more damage than any other class.

I modeled this on a graph in the warlock houserules thread.

I would be very cautious about making frenzy more powerful or cost less.

Like I said to Giant2005, you're not looking at this logically. You're comparing Frenzy to other classes, rather than to its direct competitors - totem warriors. That's completely irrational. If you're playing a Barbarian you're not choosing between Barbarian and Paladin. You're choosing between Berserker and Totem Warrior. Compare the Frenzy Barbarian to the Wolf Totem Barbarian and OP's suggestion is perfectly balanced.

[Kryx]

Can you cite the assumptions made in that chart?
Math is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0


In play, the bonus action extra attack from frenzy isnt that big a deal for GWM barbarians, who are getting the bonus action attack most rounds anyways (from either dropping a foe or from occasional critical hits).
I'd estimate to be around 30-50% of rounds. Good, but frenzy is 100% of rounds.




Like I said to Giant2005, you're not looking at this logically. You're comparing Frenzy to other classes, rather than to its direct competitors - totem warriors. That's completely irrational. If you're playing a Barbarian you're not choosing between Barbarian and Paladin. You're choosing between Berserker and Totem Warrior. Compare the Frenzy Barbarian to the Wolf Totem Barbarian and OP's suggestion is perfectly balanced.
That's not how balance works. You don't ignore other class options. But to indulge you:

Bear: damage resistance against everything else. Not very common, but can be. Super tank option. Not the best imo.
Eagle: Great way to move around. Fair trade vs the extra damage of frenzy. Especially when you consider GWM's bonus attack
Wolf: Grant allies advantage. Good, depends on party size and composition. Overall only a good choice if you have 2+ other melee classes

Now lets compare a frenzy barb vs a non frenzy barb. At level 8 the non-frenzy barb does 25.5 DPR while the frenzy barb does 38.2 DPR. That's HUGE. That is easily comparable to, if not better than, every option up there.

I used to think Frenzy was ****ty. But now I have a frenzy barb as one of my players and it + reckless swings is crazy damage and his health is very difficult to threaten even when he's giving advantage.

[Malifice]

I'd estimate to be around 30-50% of rounds. Good, but frenzy is 100% of rounds.

Seeing as most 5e combats are over inside of 4 rounds, thats 2 extra attacks from frenzy. Another way of saying it is 2 extra attacks per long rest. Or yo can take the opportunity cost and do it twice for a level of exhaustion.

That's not how balance works. You don't ignore other class options. But to indulge you:


Bear: damage resistance against everything else. Not very common, but can be. Super tank option. Not the best imo.

Also lets that resistance work in heavy armor. Great for so many tank builds.


Wolf: Grant allies advantage. Good, depends on party size and composition. Overall only a good choice if you have 2+ other melee classes

Youre underestimating this ability greatly.


Now lets compare a frenzy barb vs a non frenzy barb. At level 8 the non-frenzy barb does 25.5 DPR while the frenzy barb does 38.2 DPR. That's HUGE. That is easily comparable to, if not better than, every option up there.

Youre not including the bonus extra attack from GWM on a crit or when you drop an enemy in those numbers (around 50 percent of the time). You'll need to increase the non-frenzy stats accordingly.

Yoove made the same error with the GWM Fighter too.

Check out the total party DPR increase for the Wolf totem barbarian with a Fighter and a Paladin adjacent to him.

[Strill]

Now lets compare a frenzy barb vs a non frenzy barb. At level 8 the non-frenzy barb does 25.5 DPR while the frenzy barb does 38.2 DPR. That's HUGE. That is easily comparable to, if not better than, every option up there.It's a 50% damage boost, and that's assuming you DON'T have either Greatweapon Master or Polearm Master, which make it comparatively worse. Meanwhile with Wolf Totem, you're giving all your melee allies Reckless Attack every turn.

I think you're exaggerating.

[Malifice]

It's a 50% damage boost, and that's assuming you DON'T have either Greatweapon Master or Polearm Master, which make it comparatively worse. Meanwhile with Wolf Totem, you're giving all your melee allies Reckless Attack every turn.

I think you're exaggerating.

His numbers dont account for the roughly 50 percent activation rate for GWM bonus attacks.

[Giant2005]

I think the Wolf Totem thing is really being made to seem a lot more powerful than it is. Sure advantage is amazingly powerful but it is also easy to get. You can use the Wolf Totem to give every ally in melee advantage, or you or one of your allies can sacrifice an attack to knock them prone to do the same thing. With that in mind, the DPR increase of the Wolf Totem ability is equal to a single attack, which is also the extra damage that Frenzy gives you.
Considering that Frenzy increases damage by the same amount as the Wolf Totem (Unless a less-damaging character did the knockdown) and Frenzy comes with a significant drawback and the Wolf Totem doesn't, that is a pretty good argument for removing/lessening the drawback of Frenzy.

[Strill]

I think the Wolf Totem thing is really being made to seem a lot more powerful than it is. Sure advantage is amazingly powerful but it is also easy to get. You can use the Wolf Totem to give every ally in melee advantage, or you or one of your allies can sacrifice an attack to knock them prone to do the same thing.1. Doesn't work on enemies greater than Large size.
2. Only practical against beefy enemies, who are often greater than large size.
3. Can fail.
4. Costs an attack, which is a big cost since you're sacrificing damage with the hope of getting more damage.
5. Has to be used against EACH enemy.
6. Has to be used EVERY turn.

Wolf totem is WAY, WAY better.

[Kryx]

Youre not including the bonus extra attack from GWM on a crit or when you drop an enemy in those numbers (around 50 percent of the time). You'll need to increase the non-frenzy stats accordingly.
You're right. I should include those in both cases of GWM. Though the percentage chance is highly debatable. I think it's closer to 30% on average (5% crit and 25% chance of killing an enemy). It entirely depends on enemies fought, turn order, GM style, etc.


Wolf is only better if you have multiple melee allies that all focus. Basically only theoretically. Especially if you start using GWM and killing everything then allies never get advantage.

People really overestimate it. And underestimate Frenzy. Frenzy is great damage for 1-2 encounters per day. Most games I've seen only have a few(0-3) hard encounters each day anyways.

[Strill]

You're right. I should include those in both cases of GWM. Though the percentage chance is highly debatable. I think it's closer to 30% on average (5% crit and 25% chance of killing an enemy). It entirely depends on enemies fought, turn order, GM style, etc.5% chance to crit, doubled from advantage, and doubled again from extra attack. That comes out to around a 45% chance to trigger GWM, which is right around what Maliface said it was.



Wolf is only better if you have multiple melee allies that all focus. Basically only theoretically. Especially if you start using GWM and killing everything then allies never get advantage.If you kill everything, you can just use the rest of your movement to move to the next enemy.

[Kryx]

5% chance to crit, doubled from advantage, and doubled again from extra attack.
You're right, it's higher than I initially thougt. 18.55% chance to crit once with 4 rolls. +25% chance of killing an enemy (generous imo) is 44.55%.

Updated the GWM Barb and GWM Fighter. At 12 Frenzy Barb vs Non-Frenzy Barb: 52.3 vs 42.5. Still miles ahead.

The advantage granted by Wolf could indeed even that or even surpass it, but it entirely depends on the situation. I'm inclined to believe they're about equal.


FYI I assumed the fighter takes battlemaster, not champion. I'm not sure how to add that damage. It's more about effects imo. The Champion would increase GWM's DPR, but I think the effects would be better.

[Easy_Lee]

I think that exhaustion only going away on a long rest is the real issue. If frenzies, after a certain level, could remove a level of exhaustion with a short rest, then they wouldn't have major issues with it.

[Malifice]

You're right, it's higher than I initially thougt. 18.55% chance to crit once with 4 rolls. +25% chance of killing an enemy (generous imo) is 44.55%.

Updated the GWM Barb and GWM Fighter. At 12 Frenzy Barb vs Non-Frenzy Barb: 52.3 vs 42.5. Still miles ahead.

The advantage granted by Wolf could indeed even that or even surpass it, but it entirely depends on the situation. I'm inclined to believe they're about equal.

Youre rating 40-50 DPR at 12th level only a 25 percent chance to drop an enemy in any given round?

Thats 160-200 points of damage dealt before GWM drops something. It would be much closer to 80-100 so closer to 50 percent (one per round with mooks) plus crit chance.

DPR should still be higher as one cant assume you drop something every single round, but considering its opportunity cost (i.e. you generally only do it once) for a rather moderate spike in damage for a single encounter, Im not sure it stacks up well enough against the other available options.

[Steampunkette]

So I'm taking a look at this DPR analysis and it's just way wrong.

What you're looking at on this document is the baseline DPS of Fighters without action surging. But it's showing Frenzy Barbarians in full swing. It also, as noted, doesn't include any of the other benefits of opportunity bonus actions (like cleaving). But also worth noting, the Fighter presented isn't a Battlemaster, who can add d8s and effects to her attacks and damage values.

Frenzies lose their first bonus action per round. Why isn't that represented here?

To do a true DPR analysis you need to set out a number of rounds and go through the steps to get to the total result. And if you're making the Barbarian Frenzy you'd best be having the Battlemaster Fighter Action Surge to blow out all of her superiority dice in the same shot to get an actual comparison.

Then average the damage of the rounds based on what happens.

When you run into stuff like Wolf Totem's Pack Tactics, you need to deal with groups rather than solo PCs because those abilities affect groups. So to compare that you provide one (already baselined) ally to the situation and look at the total party damage increase off of that ability.

Then, to deal with opportunity abilities, you need to set up different encounter tests for comparison. Short version: GWM is best on lots of weak enemies, Frenzy is best on hard targets with tons of HP. And that doesn't even consider enemies of varying HP or AC.

Of course that also doesn't include the maneuverability of foes and their ability to avoid being attacked and choice not to slap the frenzied barbarian, forcing her out of frenzy and right into exhaustion, completely ending the usefulness of the ability and making it 100% drawback if it happens on the first or second round. Unless that barb wants to turn her greatsword or greataxe on herself, of course.

And after that it might be nice to compare survivability and noncombat versatility to see what the devs value.

So yes. Based on the presented calculations a Frenzy Barb has a higher DPR than any other class. But it doesn't paint the whole picture.

8d12 per short rest (assuming no martial adept feats) isn't something to sneeze at. Especially when you can declare them -after- the attack is rolled. My house-rule on Frenzy is that the exhaustion level(s) last until a short rest has been completed. There are too many -common- variables that are unaccounted for. I didn't want to get into spellcasting allies or enemies, either. Who can stop a Frenzy in it's tracks with a single Hold Person. Sure, Charm and Fear won't land, but that barb could just stand still and then be exhausted.

[Steampunkette]

To sum up my TL:DR post above:

To do a DPR analysis you need to average out the DPR over a set period of time, not show one slice of combat with all the spikes taken out of it. Spikes impact DPR just as much as constant abilities do, once you average it all out.