Begginer DM requiring some advice

[WilfredWhaleson]

Greetings all, this is my first post in this forum.

So, I have been DMing a party of 4 in a homemade Pathfinder campaign. 2 weeks ago another one joined, as a druid who specializes in summoning (traits, feats etc.) and I am having some problems. With his spontaneous casting of Summon nature's Ally he is always summoning a bunch of monsters in each battle and lets them face first into the battle while the whole party chops the whole encounter. In the beggining it was ok, but it is getting a bit frustrating, especially after they killed this campaign's BBEG without anyone even taking a risk. I am not an evil GM (yet) and I do not want to make them sweat in every encounter. I just want to make it one step more difficult, so summons are not "carrying" the whole party through each fight. I have some solutions in my mind, but I can only use so much Dispel Magik before it gets tedious for everyone.
Any help or advice?

Thanks everyone in advance

[Crake]

Summons are made completely useless by a single 1st level spell: protection from evil. This can extend to a whole group of people by using magic circle against evil, or an entire site via hallow. There are of course evil versions of all of theses, so if the bad guy knows that people who like to utilise summons are approaching, it would not be unreasonable for him to unhallow his lair.

[Marlowe]

...the vast majority of things you get from Summon Nature's Ally are going to be True Neutral. Protection from X won't do anything. nevermind, I'm wrong. Although Good summoned creatures can still go through a PoE and vice versa.

Are summoning spells quicker to cast in PF?

[atemu1234]

Damage Reduction. In general, summons lack good damage-dealing and chip away at hit points. Damage Reduction and Fast Healing will make it a pain.

[WilfredWhaleson]

Well, Marlowe is not wrong. The most creatures summoned from Summon Nature's Ally are not evil, so Protection from Evil will not help. Protection from Good won't apply to many either.


Are summoning spells quicker to cast in PF?

No, summoning requires a full-round action.

[Surpriser]

No, summoning requires a full-round action.
That is not true. The casting time is "1 round". This means that the druid starts casting on his turn and at the beginning of his next turn (after all other characters have had a chance to react), he finishes the spell and the monsters appear.
This gives you a whole new line of attack: If you hit the druid during that round, he has a chance to lose the spell. Not even casting defensively will help against that, as you can simply make regular attacks against him.

So invest in archers or mobile enemies, that simply interrupt the druid if he starts to summon.

[Janthkin]

For variety, on top of "Protection/Magic Circle from X," Summoned creatures are also prone to being Dispelled.

[yakri]

+1 to the idea of dispelling them. also multiple spaced out easy-ish encounters can help drain his Summon reserves. multi caster encounters with a caster specializing in aberration, mainly dispelling and counter spelling, could get him to think outside the box.

[Janthkin]

The marathon adventuring day is definitely a good solution, with many encounters spread out to stretch party resources; druids only have so many spells/day at lower levels. You can also play around with monsters that look really intimidating, but fold easily...once the druid has already invested major effort into killing them.

The trick there, of course, is in preventing the party from just stopping when they run out of spells & going off to rest somewhere. You'll need to keep the urgency up.

*edit: At the same time, it's important to let the player use his class features. Sometimes the answer IS just to summon some dinosaurs & let them eat the monsters. There's always a balance; part of being a fair DM is to limit the encounters to what the enemies should reasonably have available. As the party grows stronger and more famous, it becomes more reasonable that their foes will start to learn about what they do, and start taking steps to counter the party's most commonly-used tactics. This is accelerated if any survivors get away to tell their bosses what happened (or their bosses invest in Speak With Dead).

[General Sajaru]

Another way to foil summoning is to scatter anti-magic fields around your enemy's lair :smallbiggrin:

[Drork]

Most of the "easy" ideas are magic based.
Protection spells as stated wont work that much. However AoE damage spells that do a little to a lot of them will not only put the players in the line of fire but might also just clear up the summons.

Fear spell will likely work many animals have low will saves. Range attacks can get around the animals and just aim at the PCs.

Slowing/entangling spells and devices can make them less useful.

Dispel magic/counter spell is a viable option if you are protecting a BBEG, (make sure you know the rules before you use them). The PCs will need to engage the casters counter spelling before they can use the summons.

Running away is actually very effective against summon spells they spent a spell that did no/little damage depleted resources for no gain. Creating a run and gun battle will make it hard so long as the monsters have a way of dealing with the summons movements (or are on horse back). If they have a plan built into the encounter remember to adjust the CR of the encounter so when they asked for XP you can give them something. If they ask why so low just answer with you will see.

Terrain can make it so some animals are less effective. Stairs can be a real issue for animals. "The summoned ally appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions as you command."
Remember to remind the druid they can not speak with the animal at this time. The best of its ability sometimes means it just can not do it.

Also to go with terrain TRAP! nothing says good bye to a pack of wolves like a pit trap with spikes at the bottom of it. Ever seen a wolf climb a rope ... Illusions can go in here as well just because the druid can see that it is a pit trap with a silent image over it doesnt mean the summons animal can also cant communicate too next round too late.

More Mooks. Stick a line of fodder in front of anything you want to live. Its Rounds per level, just fill in the time with useless trash. This can also be done with illusions but goblins taking total defense are shocking good at wasting time on a battle field.

Fly/levitate spell can make it so animals can not attack.

A few other solutions give the summoned animals to random players or take control of them yourself. The druid has no greater control over them unless he can talk to them. Even then it is up to him to give clear instructions to get them to do what he wants (not complex ones).

The issue it sounds like you are actually running up against is action economy. With each summon spell the PCs get at least one extra action. There are a few simple ways to get around this behind the curtain. Give things a handful of extra HP so they live long enough to make an interesting encounter. Higher AC also works but is more risky to push an encounter outside of the reach of PCs. Not letting the PCs be on the offensive takes away a huge number of actions. If they do not have weapons drawn that takes time and cuts into actions they can do.

Then there is always the if you cant beat them join them option. A item of summon with X charges they BBEG doesnt care if he uses 10 out of 13 charges on the item if he is going to die. The PCs get more reward if they are more successful.

Just a few ideas that came to mind.

[Sacrieur]

Summons are made completely useless by a single 1st level spell: protection from evil. This can extend to a whole group of people by using magic circle against evil, or an entire site via hallow. There are of course evil versions of all of theses, so if the bad guy knows that people who like to utilise summons are approaching, it would not be unreasonable for him to unhallow his lair.

Neutral characters can pick if their summon is celestial or fiendish. There's also the fact your enemies would have to know that the creatures are fiendish or celestial and know to cast the relevant spell. Metagaming works both ways.

[Janthkin]

Neutral characters can pick if their summon is celestial or fiendish. There's also the fact your enemies would have to know that the creatures are fiendish or celestial and know to cast the relevant spell. Metagaming works both ways.Given that we're talking about a Druid here, are there many options to apply the Celestial or Fiendish templates to SNA?

[Ogh_the_Second]

Given that we're talking about a Druid here, are there many options to apply the Celestial or Fiendish templates to SNA?

No, but from SNA III, Druids can start to summon non-neutral creatures (Giant eagles, Salamanders, etc.).
However, there are no standard SNA summons that can circumvent Protection from Law.

[Nibbens]

Here's a thought - do what the party is doing to you.

He summons 1d3 celestial badgers, you make sure your encounter has 1 baddie and several toughies and a bunch of minions to muck up the battlefield. Sure they can't hit very well, but neither can his summoned creatures. This also gives you the advantage of tiered fighting.

Check out this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1). I live and die by it now. Many of the concepts you're saying your PCs are doing are exactly the things that this guide talks about. Knowing this is 3/4 of your battle.

[LoyalPaladin]

A wise DM once said to me "When your players look like they are feeling comfortable or losing interest, roll a couple of d4's. Make sure you keep a poker face, look down at your sheets and continue on." This terrifies my players.

[WilfredWhaleson]

However, there are no standard SNA summons that can circumvent Protection from Law.

I don't quite get it. Most SNA summons are just Neutral (true neutral). How does Protection from Law applies to them?

[Lerondiel]

With many SNAs having low AC, even just a couple of brutes with PA & Cleave in front of a Warmage should have the PCs scrambling for their weapons.

[Crake]

I don't quite get it. Most SNA summons are just Neutral (true neutral). How does Protection from Law applies to them?

Protection from X doesn't actually only stop X, it stops everything that isnt Y, where Y is the opposite of X. So Protection from Evil actually prevents any non-good summoned creature from attacking you, not merely just evil creatures. As such, a combination of Protection from Evil and Protection from Good will result in being completely untouchable by summons. Both those effects are overlappable in all it's forms, Protection from X/Y, Magic Circle against X/Y and hallow/unhallow. Nothing actually stops an area being both hallowed and unhallowed at the same time after all.

[Chronikoce]

Protection from X doesn't actually only stop X, it stops everything that isnt Y, where Y is the opposite of X. So Protection from Evil actually prevents any non-good summoned creature from attacking you, not merely just evil creatures. As such, a combination of Protection from Evil and Protection from Good will result in being completely untouchable by summons. Both those effects are overlappable in all it's forms, Protection from X/Y, Magic Circle against X/Y and hallow/unhallow. Nothing actually stops an area being both hallowed and unhallowed at the same time after all.

I've played and been a DM for a while now and have never noticed that distinction for summoned creatures. Just went and looked it up and sure enough it says that protection from evil prevents attacks by summed creatures and that good creatures ignore this effect meaning any non good cannot contact the target.

Thanks for the rules correction!

[Sacrieur]

Protection from X doesn't actually only stop X, it stops everything that isnt Y, where Y is the opposite of X. So Protection from Evil actually prevents any non-good summoned creature from attacking you, not merely just evil creatures. As such, a combination of Protection from Evil and Protection from Good will result in being completely untouchable by summons. Both those effects are overlappable in all it's forms, Protection from X/Y, Magic Circle against X/Y and hallow/unhallow. Nothing actually stops an area being both hallowed and unhallowed at the same time after all.

Are we reading the same rules?

"Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures."

"Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect."

In fact it goes out of its way to explicitly mention that all non-evil creatures are unaffected by it.

[Dolour]

Summons are made completely useless by a single 1st level spell: protection from evil.
druid, animals arent evil unfortunatly...

@topic:
i personally find inti debuffs great for dealing with animals.
an easy metamagicced, split ray of stupidity is "just" a lvl3 spell and will get rid of 2 bears or whatever each round.
reach, chained touch of stupidity even gets rid of a whole bunch(ideally).

or what about npc's with rrrrrrreally high handle animal skills and wild empathy? :P

[ZamielVanWeber]

The 3.5 one protects against non-good. The PF one protects against evil only.

[Geddy2112]

Most summoned monsters/nature's allies are just meatshields/chip damage. If you want something that can negate both, send a swarm or incorporeal monster against the party. No nature's ally at low levels can do a thing about either. Many swarms also fly increasing their threat, and certain things like wraiths are not just untouchable by physical attacks, they repel animals.

[jiriku]

Welcome to the Playground! We're glad to have you here! :smallsmile:

Here are a few suggestions. Some have been made before but I'll repeat them because they're that good.


Enemies are intelligent and have ranged attacks. As soon as the druid summons, one of them shouts "They've got a summoner! Quick, kill him before he can summon anything else, or we're doomed!" Then the entire enemy group focuses fire on the druid. The druid must spend actions self-buffing, healing, or hiding, and has less time available to summon.

Enemies fly. Druid can summon flying creatures, but they are generally less effective.

Enemies are incorporeal or swarms that are immune to weapon damage. The summons are useless.

Enemies are oozes that split into multiple oozes when struck with slashing weapons (there are a couple of these). Summoning actually makes the fight harder.

Enemies have damage reduction and ignore the summoned monsters.

Enemies also summon and will counter-summon, matching the druid spell for spell.

Enemies lay down a damaging area effect such as a field of flaming oil or somesuch. The druid is taking damage every round and has to pass checks to avoid losing the spell for any spell that takes 1 round or more to cast (such as SNA).

Enemies are stealthy lurkers who hide, lurk, attack from concealment, then hide again. The summoned creatures can't locate them reliably, and are less effective.

Enemies hold the high ground, such as a balcony or parapet.he druid can't see their area well enough to drop summoned creatures right next to them, and the summoned creatures can't get past the barricade/locked door/steep stairwell that's guarding access to the high ground.

Enemies rely heavily on area debuffs and area damage effects. They can project power against PCs and summoned animals all at the same time with no loss of effectiveness.

[Crake]

The 3.5 one protects against non-good. The PF one protects against evil only.

ah right, there's where the mix up is coming from, I was going off my 3.5 knowledge

[Darth Ultron]

An easy way to balance this is to simply have more foes. Have 20 orc thugs, not ten. This will make the summoned animals spread out more to attack all the foes.

Also have foes with plenty of animals/monsters. Give every goblin a pet wolf. Give every guard a dog.

[Crake]

An easy way to balance this is to simply have more foes. Have 20 orc thugs, not ten. This will make the summoned animals spread out more to attack all the foes.

Also have foes with plenty of animals/monsters. Give every goblin a pet wolf. Give every guard a dog.

Give it to them via the wild cohort feat so it counts as part of their own CR too, so they don't start getting disproportionate XP

[fallensavior]

Greetings all, this is my first post in this forum.

So, I have been DMing a party of 4 in a homemade Pathfinder campaign. 2 weeks ago another one joined, as a druid who specializes in summoning (traits, feats etc.) and I am having some problems. With his spontaneous casting of Summon nature's Ally he is always summoning a bunch of monsters in each battle and lets them face first into the battle while the whole party chops the whole encounter. In the beggining it was ok, but it is getting a bit frustrating, especially after they killed this campaign's BBEG without anyone even taking a risk. I am not an evil GM (yet) and I do not want to make them sweat in every encounter. I just want to make it one step more difficult, so summons are not "carrying" the whole party through each fight. I have some solutions in my mind, but I can only use so much Dispel Magik before it gets tedious for everyone.
Any help or advice?

Thanks everyone in advance

Close quarters.

When I played a summoner, the most annoying thing was when there just wasn't enough room to summon anything into the fight.