How to play a Bard

[Denerial Slyvan]

Hello fellow adventurers,

My name is Denerial and I have just recently got into playing DnD. My very first character, very first class, is a Half-Elf Bard and I have a few questions that maybe someone can help me with. As I have never played this before I really don't know what I am doing for best optimization for weapons, armor, or abilities. Also I tend to find myself being really unimpressive and not much help so far in my group. I was hoping to see if I could get some pointers on my Bard class in terms of weapons I should be using, abilities that are best used on Bards, and what type of actions should I be doing to best fit the Bard and help the team. I love roleplaying I just don't think I have the Bard down.

I am a level 4 Bard with a background as an Entertainer
I took College of Lore
Light armor with prof
I use a rapier with prof.
A hand crossbow with prof. and Crossbow Expert as a recently claimed Feat.
Cantrips of Blade Ward and true strike so far
Spells of Invisibility, Thunderwave, Cure Wounds, Enhance ability, Healing Word, Vicious Mockery, and Insidious Laughter?

Thoughts or changes please help me out :).

[Yagyujubei]

great resource:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4146291

[Flashy]

Are you sure you don't want to be a valor bard? With that setup it looks like you're going for a buff/melee build, and that's pretty much exactly what valor bard is for.

[Denerial Slyvan]

great resource:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4146291

I was actually looking into mulitclassing with the warlock myself what are your thoughts on it?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Your basic set-up of Lore Bard with X-bow expert works perfectly fine. Depending on DM rulings you could also do a dual hand x-bows for fighting at ranged (assuming your DM isn't letting you fire your one hand x-bow twice already).

Your cantrip choices are a bit meh. Personally I would go for Vicious Mockery and Minor Illusion, or Thunderclap if playing with the EE spells.

Healing Word, Sleep and Dissonant Whispers are the gold star 1st level spells. Thunderwave, Cure Wounds, Faerie Fire, Tasha's Laughter and Bane are also handy.

Decent choices for level two spells are Shatter (One of only 2 AoE damage spells on the bard list, the other being Thunderwave, though as a Lore Bard you may swap Shatter for Fireball at lvl 6.), Phantasmal Force, Suggestion, Invisibility, Heat Metal, Blindness/Deafness and Hold Person.

For 3rd level spells, there's Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Dispel Magic (If there's no one else to take the spell), Tiny Hut (if there's no wizard), Stinking Cloud and Major Image.

[Falcon X]

First off, these handbooks are much more thorough than I can be:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?363601-Bardic-Lore-A-Basic-College-of-Lore-Bard-Guide

http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4146291

As for what to do with your bard? That's a tough question because he can fill any and all roles.

Several tips:
- Many of your spells aren't about dealing damage, they are about getting through situations in non-combative ways. You currently seem to be avoiding your true illusion and enchantment spells, while those are your aces.
You could use illusions to put up fake walls so that enemies don't know you are there. You could enchant a guard to let you pass rather than kill him.
- Bards always have a trick up their sleeve. If you see mundane items like string or bouncy balls. Think about how you can MacGyver that up. Your bouncy ball can set off traps, or be used to judge depth, or hundreds of other uses.
You should be able to swindle people and beat people at games.
- Bards should be impressive to others. They can talk really well about themselves and gain respect quickly.
- The most fun bards are ones that always have a joke or story ready. If you have free time, memorize some combat puns, or make some stories you can say in-game.
- Never rush into battle. Bards fill in gaps. Hold back and see if one place in the fight needs an extra sword, or if you should be on Cure Wounds duty, or if you would be better off doing Battlefield control with your spells.

[Yagyujubei]

I was actually looking into mulitclassing with the warlock myself what are your thoughts on it?

well here's the thing, it's amazing to take 2 warlock levels on a lore bard, since EB with agonizing blast is pretty much the only thing you'll ever need to stay relevant damage wise.

that sad part is that it makes your xbox expert a wasted feat because EB+AB is so so much better than using an xbow. in all seriousness though I would dip 2 warlock when playing a lore bard 100% of the time personally. it's way too good to pass up.

[Denerial Slyvan]

Yeah I know I kind of messed up here but when leveling between 2 and 3 my party had not been doing to much damage and nearly getting killed on every encounter so I opt for damage to better help out. If I do decide to multiclass I will most likely go into warlock. Depending on my DM if he'll allow me to trade my feat, my college, or both I don't know. I will make it all work out but thank you all for the tips.

-I appreciate the "what can you Macguyver up" tip. I will use that and try to get in the mindset of where am I needed and not who can I kill. That comes from all my dovahkin rampaging in Skryim.

[Yagyujubei]

yeah no jokes the early levels are deadly as hell in 5E, combat wise where bard really really shines is in battlefield control. make the enemies do what you want them to do, go where you want them to go, and fight who you want them to fight. if they just barely land a hit cutting words in their face. toss your biggest damage source an inspiration die to make sure they hit when it's most crucial.

getting eldritch blast+repelling blast synergizes with this really well since you can push enemies away with it. Out of battle remember you're good at everything, maybe not the best, but good enough and when it comes to being charming and getting on peoples good sides nobody is as good as bards.

[ad_hoc]

I would ask your DM if you can retrain your can trips and feat.

Dissonant Whispers is awesome. It is not just the damage you are going for, it is the opportunity attacks.

Otherwise focus on buffing your allies and rebuffing your enemies.

Cutting Words is one of the best abilities in the game use it often.

[pibby]

It's probably best to just stick with Bard as opposed to multiclassing since you'll be able to have access to higher level spells much faster.

I'd recommend changing your college to Valor if possible. Even if you get Extra Attack latter than everyone else, Combat Inspiration gives your frontliners the option to alternatively use Bardic Inspiration to avoid attacks (or deal a little extra damage if they feel like it'll make the difference in slaying a creature). If you ever reach level 10 you can grab the Swift Quiver spell from the Ranger's spell list which will help you compete in damage with martial characters.

If you have to stick with Lore Bard then you should see if you can rechoose your feat and replace it with either +2 to Cha to raise your spell DCs and uses for Bardic Inspiration, or replace it with Magic Initiate so that you don't have to sacrific Bard levels (and in turn delay getting high level spells) to multiclass into Warlock.

As GWJ_DanyBoy suggested you also have access to the level 2 spell Shatter which I feel is a staple spell for any spellcaster who has access to it. Personally, I would recommend having both Shatter and Fireball if you're going to stick with Lore Bard since holding on the Shatter will give you 3 spell slots for an AoE spell that Fireball cannot be used for.

Don't be jealous about the damage your fellow martial PCs are doing. As a Bard, your strength actually lies outside of combat. As with any character, if you have a skill trained and another fellow PC is using that skill you may assist them and in doing so give them Advantage on the roll. This should happen more often as a Half Elf Bard. And whether or not you or someone else is able to actually assist that person in that way, you have the Bardic Inspiration class ability that you can grant someone (as opposed to using the spell Enhance Ability). Once you reach level 6 you get to refresh that ability on a short rest and use it more liberally which you will have fun doing once you reach that point.

[Person_Man]

My thoughts:

Since you haven't played before, I suggest sticking to strait Bard, rather then multi-classing. Strait Bard will give you access to more spells, higher level spells, and higher level class abilities. While multi-classing can be beneficial for certain optimization purposes, strait Bard (or strait any class) plays just fine as is, whereas multi-classing can have many unintended consequences. For example, if you dip Warlock to get Eldritch Blast for slightly better at-will damage, you're diminishing your burst damage and many other functions because you have worse spells.

Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371892-List-of-Useful-and-Powerful-Spells) of the spells I've found most useful. A Lore Bard can cherry pick spells off of any spell list, which is the big reason why people generally play one.

If you're going to go Lore Bard (as opposed to Valor), then I suggest you rely on Cantrips for your at-will attacks (as opposed to weapons like a crossbow). So I wouldn't spend a Feat on Crossbow Expert, and would instead max out your Charisma to 20, and cherry pick a Lore spell that reliably deals damage (like Spiritual Weapon) if you're worried about your damage output.

Valor Bard also works equally well. You just spend less time casting interesting spells, and more time hitting stuff. So you basically get slightly higher AC and at-will damage in exchange for fewer spells. I personally prefer more spells, because that's the coolest part of D&D for me. But your mileage may vary.

[JAL_1138]

My thoughts:

Since you haven't played before, I suggest sticking to strait Bard, rather then multi-classing. Strait Bard will give you access to more spells, higher level spells, and higher level class abilities. While multi-classing can be beneficial for certain optimization purposes, strait Bard (or strait any class) plays just fine as is, whereas multi-classing can have many unintended consequences. For example, if you dip Warlock to get Eldritch Blast for slightly better at-will damage, you're diminishing your burst damage and many other functions because you have worse spells.

Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371892-List-of-Useful-and-Powerful-Spells) of the spells I've found most useful. A Lore Bard can cherry pick spells off of any spell list, which is the big reason why people generally play one.

If you're going to go Lore Bard (as opposed to Valor), then I suggest you rely on Cantrips for your at-will attacks (as opposed to weapons like a crossbow). So I wouldn't spend a Feat on Crossbow Expert, and would instead max out your Charisma to 20, and cherry pick a Lore spell that reliably deals damage (like Spiritual Weapon) if you're worried about your damage output.

Valor Bard also works equally well. You just spend less time casting interesting spells, and more time hitting stuff. So you basically get slightly higher AC and at-will damage in exchange for fewer spells. I personally prefer more spells, because that's the coolest part of D&D for me. But your mileage may vary.

Strait bards are good, but I've always preferred Fjord bards. Estuary bards have been underpowered in every edition, though, I'll grant that.

I do miss the old Delta bard kit, but I guess they were too close to Warlock in fluff, what with having to sell your soul at the crossroads to learn the blues.


Sorry, had to. :smalltongue:

[Giant2005]

Just wait it out, when you get to level 6 you can pillage other classes spell lists and become useful to the point where you could potentially render entire classes obsolete.
Take Aura of Vitality and you become the type of healer that humbles Clerics. Take Elemental Weapon and you can buff a Fighter's damage significantly enough to completely change the game.

[Person_Man]

Strait bards are good, but I've always preferred Fjord bards. Estuary bards have been underpowered in every edition, though, I'll grant that.

I do miss the old Delta bard kit, but I guess they were too close to Warlock in fluff, what with having to sell your soul at the crossroads to learn the blues.


Sorry, had to. :smalltongue:

I hate heterographs.

Also, I feel the overwhelming urge to homerbew a Fjord Bard Subclass, with abilities that are only useful in narrow inlets created by glacial erosion.

[JAL_1138]

I feel the overwhelming urge to homerbew a Fjord Bard Subclass, with abilities that are only useful in narrow inlets created by glacial erosion.

...that's magnificently overspecialized. It'd be an absolutely perfect fit for the Complete X's Handbooks line from 2e :smallbiggrin:

[SharkForce]

...that's magnificently overspecialized. It'd be an absolutely perfect fit for the Complete X's Handbooks line from 2e :smallbiggrin:

really? i mostly remember those books being filled with "primitive X" (for some reason you're incapable of learning about metal or paper, and are otherwise an ordinary X) "amazon X" (you're a woman, and men assume you're completely incompetent most of the time until proven otherwise, but otherwise an ordinary X), "noble X" (you're a rich snobby jerk version of X), "peasant X" (you're a poor X), and so on.

fjord bard actually sounds like something where you'd have to put effort and thought into it rather than just being an embarassing stereotype.

[JAL_1138]

really? i mostly remember those books being filled with "primitive X" (for some reason you're incapable of learning about metal or paper, and are otherwise an ordinary X) "amazon X" (you're a woman, and men assume you're completely incompetent most of the time until proven otherwise, but otherwise an ordinary X), "noble X" (you're a rich snobby jerk version of X), "peasant X" (you're a poor X), and so on.

fjord bard actually sounds like something where you'd have to put effort and thought into it rather than just being an embarassing stereotype.

Complete Bard had some pointlessly overspecialized ones, like Thespian and Jester (there were rules for jokes). Others had broad, occasionally-moderately-offensive stereotypes. Still others had brokenly powerful or ludicrously, comically weak options.

I suppose being wildly inconsistent was also a hallmark of the Complete X's line...

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Yeah I know I kind of messed up here but when leveling between 2 and 3 my party had not been doing to much damage and nearly getting killed on every encounter so I opt for damage to better help out. If I do decide to multiclass I will most likely go into warlock. Depending on my DM if he'll allow me to trade my feat, my college, or both I don't know. I will make it all work out but thank you all for the tips.

The thing is that as a Lore Bard, the best way to help your party deal with monsters is not by trying to do DPS, especially not with weapons. It's by boosting your party members or using debuffs and crowd control on monsters.

For example, on your second level spells: Enhance Ability is really nice but I would have grabbed Fear or Hypnotic Pattern first (only one, you probably don't need both, though). Monsters that are busy running away or standing in place hypnotized are not doing damage to the party. If you can take multiple monsters out of the fight, even temporarily, in one action then your party can defeat them one at a time. Another good second level spell is Blindness, even though it's single target, because it's not concentration and being blind is fairly debilitating. Because Save or Else spells and concentration checks are a large chunk of a Bard's repertoire, I would have taken a charisma boost or Warcaster feat, instead of Crossbow Expert.

Healing Word was a good choice, since you can use your action to cast one of your other spells and use your bonus action to give someone a little healing.

[ad_hoc]

The thing is that as a Lore Bard, the best way to help your party deal with monsters is not by trying to do DPS, especially not with weapons. It's by boosting your party members or using debuffs and crowd control on monsters.

For example, on your second level spells: Enhance Ability is really nice but I would have grabbed Fear or Hypnotic Pattern first (only one, you probably don't need both, though). Monsters that are busy running away or standing in place hypnotized are not doing damage to the party. If you can take multiple monsters out of the fight, even temporarily, in one action then your party can defeat them one at a time. Another good second level spell is Blindness, even though it's single target, because it's not concentration and being blind is fairly debilitating. Because Save or Else spells and concentration checks are a large chunk of a Bard's repertoire, I would have taken a charisma boost or Warcaster feat, instead of Crossbow Expert.

Healing Word was a good choice, since you can use your action to cast one of your other spells and use your bonus action to give someone a little healing.

Fear and Hypnotic Pattern are 3rd level spells.

If you cast Healing Word you cannot cast spells for your action, only cantrips.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Fear and Hypnotic Pattern are 3rd level spells.

If you cast Healing Word you cannot cast spells for your action, only cantrips.

Right, sorry, misread the spell list there (also, was probably remembering 3rd ed, when Hypnotic pattern was lowerlevel). Blindness is still excellent at second level.

Where's the cantrip only ruling? I didn't see it under the 'cast a spell' action.

EDIT: Never mind, found it under the 'Casting Time' section of the spellcasting chapter.

Ah well, you can still use Healing Word and Vicious Mockery or Healing Word and Eldritch Blast (if you take one of the suggested builds that allows it) in the same round.

[Ashrym]

I wouldn't worry too much about the warlock levels. 2 levels of warlock gives a strong at-will damage ability to a lore bard but it also has a slower access rate to higher level abilities, loses the capstone and 2 higher level slots for lower level slots, and costs a feat/ABI (that's a hefty loss). You'll find that the bonus isn't that much at lower levels until about the 3rd die of damage is available and that has a general conflict with the full caster progression on bards because the higher level you get the more actions you spend on spells and less on using cantrips. It's one of those splits a lot of players enjoy and it's not a bad choice but it's not the given some people believe; either plan works well. Personally, I believe 1 level of life cleric is a much better splash because it doesn't cost the higher level spell slots, gives armor, and keeps the feat/ABI; the capstone is easy enough to give up, although it can come in handy if a person does need it.

It looks like your plan was to follow a combat / skilled roguish lore bard instead of the more common spell focused lore bard or combat focused valor bard. It is a common archetype that the lore bard fits if a person is looking for a DEX lore bard instead of CHA as much, with a focus on the skill usage and non-DC/attack spells. It's doable but a bit more complex than the other two archetypes.

For what you have, the crossbow master feat isn't a total wash. It does give the option for a bonus action attack at range. Having said that, it's not really optimal and better feats are usually support based feats or an ABI. Healer or inspiring leader are great feats to grab, or CHA (possibly DEX) increase, or for a more combat perspective learning medium armor and shield or pole arm mastery are good choices. Pole arm mastery can give you that extra bonus attack and if you get the shillelagh cantrip with secrets you can apply your CHA as the attack roll to mitigate MAD issues on a combat / caster combination. That's food for thought based on what you might like. I would recommend simply using 2 short swords and a light crossbow because TWF doesn't cost you anything and 2d6+mod damage isn't bad at your level. That's assuming your DM might let you retrain the feat.

I don't see anything wrong with your spell list. They work with healing and a skill focus style. Blade ward and true strike are very limited in usefulness, however, even for a valor bard with battle magic. The action cost is just too much. Vicious mockery for the defensive benefit, minor illusion can be very useful; even mage hand and prestidigitation are more useful than true strike and bladeward, unfortunately. You do have Tasha's Hideous Laughter selected as a choice and that covers taking an opponent out of combat. As mentioned, controlling effects are one of the strong points for bards.

I am a huge fan of blindness/deafness because it's non-concentration, and dissonant whispers can be solid gold after setting up for a lot of opportunity attacks. I am not a big fan of direct damage spells. In my experience, monster hit points increase quickly as CR's increase while direct damage doesn't, and it costs too many slots plus actions to sustain the necessary damage. A good AoE is important as a softening salvo or trash mop up but not a key need. I would rather spend a 3rd level slot on hypnotic pattern for the action denial it creates than fireball and then get swarmed by injured opponents. The best strategies I've seen involve action denial / status effects on opponents that help the combat power of the party and those spells are more efficient at generating damage by that combat enhancement.

Don't blow spell slots healing in combat. That's emergency healing and your spell slots are better spent preventing damage. There are several other ways to heal in 5e and short rests do more that spells. Hit dice healing, feats, and song of rest work that way.

You also didn't list your skills. I would take stealth and perception expertise at 3rd level, persuasion and insight later; but I don't know the rest of the group make up.


Hope that helps. :)