would anyone like to help me finish my divine/binding build?

[VoltaicVitriol]

OK, i've decided to play a cultist. Of the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods. Someone with complete disdain for the feeble lesser gods that clerics and paladins pay homage to.

It starts with five levels of Binder, segues into a 2-level dip in Ur-Priest, then exploits the modification listed in Anima Mage's description to use it as a divine option instead of arcane and take Anima Mage to 10.

At level 17 he casts divine spells as if he was a level 12 Ur-Priest (roughly Cleric 21 equivalent) and binds vestiges as per a level 15 binder.

So what should I fill my last three levels with? Even more spellcasting? More binding? Dip 3 other prestige classes for their entry benefits? Take 3 levels of Fighter or Commoner as a joke? I've hit my capstone early and am at a loss as to what to do next?

[Psyren]

You can't advance Ur-Priest past 10 until epic. So you have to stop advancing it at Anima Mage Priest 8. This gets you to 15, giving you 5 levels to fill.

A great option would be Knight of the Sacred Seal, which gives you martial weapon proficiency and heavy armor proficiency while continuing to advance your binding. You also get to choose a vestige as your patron, which you can never pact poorly with, and 1/day you can reset the cooldown on one of his major abilities.

[VoltaicVitriol]

You can't advance Ur-Priest past 10 until epic. So you have to stop advancing it at Anima Mage Priest 8. This gets you to 15, giving you 5 levels to fill.

is there a specific ruling that confirms this? something that applies to all prestige classes with their own self contained casting progression, or something specific to ur-priest? I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm genuinely curious, because I do not know of any such ruling. I may have missed something, and would like to correct myself.

[ZamielVanWeber]

At Anima Mage 9 you will have the casting of an 11th level Ur-priest. Pre-epic there is literally no such thing as an 11th level Ur-Priest, so this upgrade does nothing.

[Psyren]

is there a specific ruling that confirms this? something that applies to all prestige classes with their own self contained casting progression, or something specific to ur-priest? I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm genuinely curious, because I do not know of any such ruling. I may have missed something, and would like to correct myself.

What Zamiel said, but also, it's under the epic PrC rules:


Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

Pre-epic, you cannot progress Ur-Priest past 10 - hence you have to stop at AM 8.

[VoltaicVitriol]

What Zamiel said, but also, it's under the epic PrC rules:



Pre-epic, you cannot progress Ur-Priest past 10 - hence you have to stop at AM 8.

but you are not advancing the entire prestige class past tense, just its spell casting. I have seen other prestige classes taken beyond their normal limits, most commonly the Hellfire warlock being continued via Ruathar. I could have sworn there was a chart or equation that elaborated expanding a class' spellcasting progression past its normal limits pre-epic. I'll be asleep, such a character would not gain the benefits of being an epic bubble character, just a larger number of spell slots.

should i splash three levels of warlock, and then use the last two levels of anima mage to augment the use of invocation?

[Psyren]

It depends on how your GM defines "progress" - but again, even if you could progress it, Ur-Priest quite simply has no casting progression after 10, when its table stops. You would need Improved Spell Capacity to get more, which is an epic feat.

For the Warlock idea, you get enough (or should get enough) at-will stuff from Binder. If you don't see a need to advance your binding any further, I would go with Hierophant instead.

[Mr Adventurer]

Presumably you continue to gain Ur-Priest caster level. Dunno what all you guys are on, flipping out about 'advancing Ur-Priest past 10' :D

Hierophant is a great class to top off Ur-Priest, I would go with that.

[VoltaicVitriol]

Presumably you continue to gain Ur-Priest caster level. Dunno what all you guys are on, flipping out about 'advancing Ur-Priest past 10' :D

Hierophant is a great class to top off Ur-Priest, I would go with that.

What advantage would Heirophant have over more levels of Ur-Priest?

[Psyren]

What advantage would Heirophant have over more levels of Ur-Priest?

You can't do more levels of Ur-Priest - AM already advanced it to all 10 pre-epic levels of its casting. Even if you were able to take more levels of Ur-Priest, you would get no casting from them because you're already at full progression.

Hierophant is useful because it explicitly stacks with your Ur-Priest casting level (20) rather than merely advancing it. This lets you end with CL 25 before items and epic levels (and up to 30 if you choose Spell Power for your Hierophant abilities.) Other useful Hierophant abilities include Divine Reach, bonus metamagic, and Spell-Like Ability.

[VoltaicVitriol]

aside from simply increasing being lyrical value of the CL, which I do not see much benefit in, I am not really see the point of the heirophant.

what makes it preferable to levels in Divine Oracle, or Binder?

[Psyren]

aside from simply increasing being lyrical value of the CL, which I do not see much benefit in, I am not really see the point of the heirophant.

On the contrary, CL matters a very great deal for divine casters. It governs what you can get out of a Gate, how long your resurrection window is, whether your Word spells merely inconvenience the enemy or outright clear the battlefield, how powerful your SR is etc. It also makes your (extended) 10 min./level buffs last all day so you can triage DMM:Persist to shorter buffs that need it.

And that's before you get to the other unique benefits Hierophant gives you like Divine Reach and Spell-Like Ability.



what makes it preferable to levels in Divine Oracle, or Binder?

For me, I'd rather have the higher CL, Divine Reach and an SLA or two for emergencies. DO or more Binder aren't bad (you get super-evasion with the former and can bind just about every spirit with the latter) but they don't rock my world either.Hierophant will.

5 more binder levels gets you to EBL 18, or EBL 20 with Improved Binding (B5 + AM 8 + B5). You'll also have fear immunity, slippery mind and 3 pact augmentations. Acceptable, certainly.

[VoltaicVitriol]

For me, I'd rather have the higher CL, Divine Reach and an SLA or two for emergencies. DO or more Binder aren't bad (you get super-evasion with the former and can bind just about every spirit with the latter) but they don't rock my world either.Hierophant will.

5 more binder levels gets you to EBL 18, or EBL 20 with Improved Binding (B5 + AM 8 + B5). You'll also have fear immunity, slippery mind and 3 pact augmentations. Acceptable, certainly.

are there any other prestige classes with their own self contained spellcasting progression? I don't think this build will qualify for vigilante or Suel Arcanamach. I would really like to find a way to finish out the last 2 levels of Anima Mage. The capstone ability for that class is nust too tempting.

and I am still not entirely convinced that you cannot continue the spellcasting progression of Ur-Priest beyond its 10th level.that is something I will have to bring up with my DM.

[Mr Adventurer]

With Ur-Priest Hierophant you can have Miracle as an SLA.

[Psyren]

are there any other prestige classes with their own self contained spellcasting progression? I don't think this build will qualify for vigilante or Suel Arcanamach. I would really like to find a way to finish out the last 2 levels of Anima Mage. The capstone ability for that class is nust too tempting.

and I am still not entirely convinced that you cannot continue the spellcasting progression of Ur-Priest beyond its 10th level.that is something I will have to bring up with my DM.

You can take the last two of Anima Mage. It just won't advance your spellcasting any. (Note that your CL however should still increase because of how Ur-Priest's CL is calculated.)

So you can do Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/AM 10/Hierophant 3.

[VoltaicVitriol]

You can take the last two of Anima Mage. It just won't advance your spellcasting any. (Note that your CL however should still increase because of how Ur-Priest's CL is calculated.)

So you can do Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/AM 10/Hierophant 3.

I think that works out. So twice per day, I can cast miracle as a spell like ability, and once per day I can cast it as per a normal spell with the quicken, still, and silent metamagic feats attached. to say nothing of using DMM to cast a Fell Draining Harm at 60 feet.

[Extra Anchovies]

Have you considered Eunuch Warlock from Oriental Adventures? The Southern Magician feat allows you to cast divine spells as arcane spells, and although you aren't serving a material-plane emperor, chopping your balls off in the name of Cthulhu is definitely the sort of thing a cultist might do. The PrC grants you bonus spell slots of any level (only one extra slot can go to your highest-level spells, but it's still a bunch of free eighth-level spells), but I'm not sure if it increases caster level. It also gives you free Empower (and eventually free Maximize) on a few select spells and a few other goodies (depending on how your DM feels about it, these "other goodies" might include 10th-level spells).

[Jack_Simth]

With Ur-Priest Hierophant you can have Miracle as an SLA.

Re-read the Ur-Priest, and then re-read Miracle.

An Ur-Priest casting Miracle is suicide by fluff. Seriously: You're a guy who hates deities with a passion, whom deities view as an abomination, and... you're specifically asking for intervention by a deity? That is not going to end well.

[Extra Anchovies]

Re-read the Ur-Priest, and then re-read Miracle.

An Ur-Priest casting Miracle is suicide by fluff. Seriously: You're a guy who hates deities with a passion, whom deities view as an abomination, and... you're specifically asking for intervention by a deity? That is not going to end well.

Well, I've always interpreted the effects of an Ur-Priest's castings of Miracle to be entirely up to the Ur-Priest to decide. That's kind OP, but we're already talking about an Ur-Priest here.

Alternately, this anima cultist could be stealing a huge amount of power from a traditional god and passing it to a Great Old one, who then grants the miracle in return. This would be if the DM wants to set limits on what the miracle is able to do.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, I've always interpreted the effects of an Ur-Priest's castings of Miracle to be entirely up to the Ur-Priest to decide. That's kind OP, but we're already talking about an Ur-Priest here.
There's actually only a very short window where the Ur-Priest is actually overpowered compared to a pure Cleric: Character level 12-16. Granted, an Ur-Priest who went all the way and took the capstone ability has a fairly broken option thanks to stealing Wishes, but that's uncommon.

Consider a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-X vs. a Cleric-X+5.

At 6th, the Ur-Priest has 1st level Cleric spells at caster level 3, vs. the Cleric at caster level 6 and 3rd level spells.
At 7th, the Ur-Priest has 2nd level Cleric spells at caster level 4, vs. the Cleric at caster level 7 and 4th level spells.
At 10th, the Ur-Priest has 5th level Cleric spells at caster level 7, vs. the Cleric at caster level 10 and 5th level spells.
At 11th, the Ur-Priest has 6th level Cleric spells at caster level 8, vs. the Cleric at caster level 11 and 6th level spells.
At 12th, the Ur-Priest has 7th level Cleric spells at caster level 9, vs. the Cleric at caster level 12 and 6th level spells. This is the first level where the Ur-Priest is actually ahead no spell access.
At 13th, the Ur-Priest has 8th level Cleric spells at caster level 10, vs. the Cleric at caster level 13 and 7th level spells. Ur-Priest is ahead.
At 14th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 11, vs. the Cleric at caster level 14 and 7th level spells. Ur-Priest is ahead, and this is as good as it gets.
At 15th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 12, vs. the Cleric at caster level 15 and 8th level spells. Ur-Priest is ahead, but the Cleric is starting to catch up.
At 16th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 13 (assuming something that progresses caster level), vs. the Cleric at caster level 16 and 8th level spells. Ur-Priest is still ahead, but not by much.
At 17th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 14 (same assumption), vs. the Cleric at caster level 17 and 9th level spells. Ur-Priest is no longer ahead, and it doesn't get any better for the Ur-Priest. The Ur-Priest was ahead for five levels. If we start at 1st and go all the way to 20th, that's 1/4 of the character's career.

Alternately, this anima cultist could be stealing a huge amount of power from a traditional god and passing it to a Great Old one, who then grants the miracle in return. This would be if the DM wants to set limits on what the miracle is able to do.
That is of course a possibility, but you're altering the fluff of the spell rather significantly to do so. Talk to your DM.

[Extra Anchovies]

That is of course a possibility, but you're altering the fluff of the spell rather significantly to do so. Talk to your DM.

I don't actually think it's that much of a stretch. Ur-Priests steal power from worshipped gods and use it for themselves, and a normal Miracle is a cleric's deity using their power at the cleric's request. It's just combining the two. Which of the two possible fluffs you use (the ur-priest fully controlling the miracle vs. the ur-priest stealing power for a miracle and giving it to an elder god who then grants the miracle) depends on whether you want to require the involvement of a deity in the casting of a miracle, a process which is heavily implied to be necessary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm):

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede. The ur-cultist doesn't actually serve a deity, but they do have a higher power that they serve - the outer god(s) that they wish to have usurp the current gods. If there needs to be a higher power willingly granting a miracle, then these outer gods are really the only option.

[VoltaicVitriol]

There's actually only a very short window where the Ur-Priest is actually overpowered compared to a pure Cleric: Character level 12-16.

Consider a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-X vs. a Cleric-X+5.

At 6th, the Ur-Priest has 1st level Cleric spells at caster level 3, vs. the Cleric at caster level 6 and 3rd level spells.
At 7th, the Ur-Priest has 2nd level Cleric spells at caster level 4, vs. the Cleric at caster level 7 and 4th level spells.
At 10th, the Ur-Priest has 5th level Cleric spells at caster level 7, vs. the Cleric at caster level 10 and 5th level spells.
At 11th, the Ur-Priest has 6th level Cleric spells at caster level 8, vs. the Cleric at caster level 11 and 6th level spells.
At 12th, the Ur-Priest has 7th level Cleric spells at caster level 9, vs. the Cleric at caster level 12 and 6th level spells. This is the first level where the Ur-Priest is actually ahead no spell access.
At 13th, the Ur-Priest has 8th level Cleric spells at caster level 10, vs. the Cleric at caster level 13 and 7th level spells. Ur-Priest is ahead.
At 14th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 11, vs. the Cleric at caster level 14 and 7th level spells. Ur-Priest is ahead, and this is as good as it gets.
At 15th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 12, vs. the Cleric at caster level 15 and 8th level spells. Ur-Priest is ahead, but the Cleric is starting to catch up.
At 16th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 13 (assuming something that progresses caster level), vs. the Cleric at caster level 16 and 8th level spells. Ur-Priest is still ahead, but not by much.
At 17th, the Ur-Priest has 9th level Cleric spells at caster level 14 (same assumption), vs. the Cleric at caster level 17 and 9th level spells. Ur-Priest is no longer ahead, and it doesn't get any better for the Ur-Priest. The Ur-Priest was ahead for five levels. If we start at 1st and go all the way to 20th, that's 1/4 of the character's career.

That can be evened out by taking the Practiced Spellcaster feat and increasing Caster Level by 4, virtually eliminating the Cleric's lead up until level 19~ish. I think there are also some shenanigans possible with Master Spellthief.

[VoltaicVitriol]

What do you think of Death Delver from Heroes of Horror? Three levels of DD nets the character Death Sense (complete awareness of all living things within a certain range and their relative health), and extra pool of Rebuke Undead (not that I won't already be abusing Ur-Priest's rebuke feature or the vestive Tenebrous' nigh-infinite rebukes to hurl around Divine MetaMagic and Divine Defiance willy-nilly), complete immunity to all fear effects, the ability to spontaneously convert spells into Inflict spells, and the mostly useless 3 hours per day Death Ward supernatural ability, plus more spells per day since DD uses its own independant provression. I could take DD to 3 then finish Anima Mage progressing it.

Any opinions?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Spontaneously inflict isn't that useful. Tiny amounts of damage that require a touch and a will save aren't gonna do you much good.
You have Tenebrous rebukes, so getting more won't help much.
Immunity to Fear at a level where you should be working on Mind Blank type effects isn't that useful.

Ur-Priest -> Heirophant is just that much stronger.

[VoltaicVitriol]

Spontaneously inflict isn't that useful. Tiny amounts of damage that require a touch and a will save aren't gonna do you much good.
You have Tenebrous rebukes, so getting more won't help much.
Immunity to Fear at a level where you should be working on Mind Blank type effects isn't that useful.

Ur-Priest -> Heirophant is just that much stronger.

You're right, I'm just trying to find a way to reach the capstone on Anima Mage.

[Jack_Simth]

That can be evened out by taking the Practiced Spellcaster feat and increasing Caster Level by 4, virtually eliminating the Cleric's lead up until level 19~ish. I think there are also some shenanigans possible with Master Spellthief.
For Caster Level, mostly yes. For Spell Level - which is where it really matters - not so much.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You're right, I'm just trying to find a way to reach the capstone on Anima Mage.

Take only one level of Ur-Priest?

You can also just suck it down and let those caster boosts on Anima Mage be dead. As far as I know nothing stops you from just taking those Anima Mage levels.

[VoltaicVitriol]

For Caster Level, mostly yes. For Spell Level - which is where it really matters - not so much.

UR-Priest spell levels scale fast enough. The problem is that they can cast 9th level spells earlier than clerics (3 levels earlier usually) but their CL is much lower, meaning their Gates, Cures, and other CL dependant spells lag behind. Practiced caster alleviates that.