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Roethke
2007-04-16, 01:41 PM
So, starting off 'War of the Burning Sky' which looks like a good bunch of fun.

I was looking to play a plain-old fighter, (I'll preface the rest by stating that I'm not looking for optimizations here). I usually DM, so haven't seen all that much of 3.5 from the other side of the screen.

I was intrigued by the idea of the 'control' fighter-- combat expertise, Improved disarm, Improved trip. The concept is that the character's an enforcer for the Thieves' guild, but has some scruples about killing, (Pelor being decidedly vague on the subject of kneecaps.)

Heavy Flail was the original idea for the weapon of choice, and fits a bit better with the fluff. A reach weapon would probably be slightly better mechanically. Probably will end up with both, if I can figure out a good way to carry them.

Standard operating procedure against humanoid opponents-- Trip, use the bonus attack to Disarm, and now bad guy is prone, without a weapon.

Either that, or use disarm to keep knocking the holy-symbol/spell pouch, etc. from the casters.

Does this work in practice? Seems like a lot of attack rolls which would end up being chances for failure. On the other hand, there's something satisfying in being able to say 'No he doesn't all the time.

crazedloon
2007-04-16, 01:45 PM
well just my .02 as far as weapon choice. I would suggest a spiked chain as you can trip/disarm with it and even get a bonus on disarm attempts.

As far as effectivness I do not know but a enlarged fighter with a spiked chain has a 15' reach pretty effective. personaly though I would suggest knight in the particular role you speak of becuase they can cause any area they threaten to be considered difficult terrain as long as the critter starts in the threaned square. This is particularly deadly if you are keeping them in your threatend area.

Ranis
2007-04-16, 01:47 PM
This is particularly deadly if you are keeping them in your threatend area.

Yep, those 5-foot steps in a round are great for repositioning.

crazedloon
2007-04-16, 02:04 PM
Yep, those 5-foot steps in a round are great for repositioning.

I’m confused as to whether you are mocking me or agreeing :smallfrown:

Let me better explain why that is a good thing. If you are wielding a reach weapon like the spiked chain you have a 10' reach and thus anything within that reach which is on the ground will provoke an attack. They can not crawl away (even though that provokes an attack normally) because you can only crawl 5 feet and in difficult terrain you need 10 feet minimum. Thus they will be forced to stand 1 AoO now if they want to get away they will need to move out of your area but they can not take a 5' step because once again terrain, this gives you a second AoO in case you missed the first. This allows you far more freedom in your own movement as long as you keep that person in your threatened area. This effectively gives you 24 squares you can move in without having to worry about your opponent standing up you missing and them just 5' stepping away.

The knight class just gives your more flexability without losing much (you only realy lose feats)

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-16, 02:06 PM
Forget Improved Disarm; you can trip anything you can disarm, if you focus on tripping, and you get an effective +8 to disarm against tripped creatures (you've got +4 on attack rolls vs. them, they've got -4).

Battlefield control is great. You need a high trip check, so you succeed as a matter of course rather than just half the time or something. You also want the Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat, Combat Reflexes and a decent DEX (but STR is a higher priority), and Karmic Strike.

A reach weapon is by far the best for this, as well as any other ways you have of improving your reach (Enlarge Person spells from friendly casters and potions, or manifesting Expansion on your own). The guisarme is the only non-exotic reach weapon that you can trip with combining that with spiked gauntlets or armor spikes will let you threaten at 5' or 10'.

Roethke
2007-04-16, 02:36 PM
Forget Improved Disarm; you can trip anything you can disarm, if you focus on tripping, and you get an effective +8 to disarm against tripped creatures (you've got +4 on attack rolls vs. them, they've got -4).

Ah, I had thought that was a standard WoTC obfuscation-- referencing the same situation as a bonus in one part of a book and as a penalty in another part. If that's not the case then getting someone prone is a lot better than I had realized.



Battlefield control is great. You need a high trip check, so you succeed as a matter of course rather than just half the time or something. You also want the Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat, Combat Reflexes and a decent DEX (but STR is a higher priority), and Karmic Strike.

Well, it's a moderately powered campaign (29-point buy), I figured I'd probably end up with 12 or 14 DEX. With 12 DEX, is combat reflexes useless? or do you still get 1 'additional' AoO. I think it's the latter, but not sure. Assuming so, at 12 DEX, I have a hard time blowing the feat for that 1 extra AoO. Though I guess it'd come up more often than, say Cleave, would with this build, so maybe it is worth it. With 14 DEX, definitely worth it. Not so sure whether it's worth giving up 16 STR to get the 14 DEX, though. I'll play with the numbers.

I like the 'Stand Still' feat, and that can be spun in an entirely non-psionic fluff, if necessary (not sure if they're a go in this campaign).



A reach weapon is by far the best for this, as well as any other ways you have of improving your reach (Enlarge Person spells from friendly casters and potions, or manifesting Expansion on your own). The guisarme is the only non-exotic reach weapon that you can trip with combining that with spiked gauntlets or armor spikes will let you threaten at 5' or 10'.


Yah. I was trying to stay away from spiked chain, just out of personal bias. However, I was intrigued by Bolas, if I can somehow avoid spending a feat on them. We may have some adaptation of an Artificer in the party, so enlargement is a real possibility.

Thanks for the advice, all.

Ranis
2007-04-16, 02:44 PM
I’m confused as to whether you are mocking me or agreeing :smallfrown:

Oh, definitely agreeing :)

One of my PCs is doing this right now, it's very annoying for my horde of Formians to get through his stubbornly thick hide.

crazedloon
2007-04-16, 02:47 PM
^^ok just making sure :smallwink:


also if you want to read a wee bit more on knight here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) they are

Roethke
2007-04-16, 02:53 PM
^^ok just making sure :smallwink:


also if you want to read a wee bit more on knight here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) they are

Thanks for the tip -- Tactically, it looks like an interesting class, but the mounted-combat/knight's code/Knight's Challenge aspects don't really fit the Urban Thieves's Guild Heavy fluff I'm going for.

asqwasqw
2007-04-16, 02:59 PM
I recommend a whip, you can carry more than one in case your trip fails. Bonus to disarm, too. Also, if you are willing to multiclass into monk, there are some exotic weapons that provide a +4 to disarm and trip. No reach though.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-16, 03:06 PM
Ah, I had thought that was a standard WoTC obfuscation-- referencing the same situation as a bonus in one part of a book and as a penalty in another part. If that's not the case then getting someone prone is a lot better than I had realized.
They're two separate things. You get +4 AB vs. a prone creature, and it gets -4 AB vs. you. It's easier for you to hit it and it's harder for it to hit you. Which makes sense.


Well, it's a moderately powered campaign (29-point buy), I figured I'd probably end up with 12 or 14 DEX. With 12 DEX, is combat reflexes useless? or do you still get 1 'additional' AoO. I think it's the latter, but not sure. Assuming so, at 12 DEX, I have a hard time blowing the feat for that 1 extra AoO. Though I guess it'd come up more often than, say Cleave, would with this build, so maybe it is worth it. With 14 DEX, definitely worth it. Not so sure whether it's worth giving up 16 STR to get the 14 DEX, though. I'll play with the numbers.
Combat Reflexes will definitely be useful; you can get Dexterity-enhancing gloves later on, after all.



Stand Still is marked [General], not [Psionic]. There is absolutely nothing psionic about the feat except that it happened to be printed in the XPH.


[quote]Yah. I was trying to stay away from spiked chain, just out of personal bias. However, I was intrigued by Bolas, if I can somehow avoid spending a feat on them. We may have some adaptation of an Artificer in the party, so enlargement is a real possibility.

Thanks for the advice, all.
I wouldn't recommend bolas. gimmicky and not worth it. Guisarme + Armor Spikes does essentially what the spiked chain does, without the wasted feat.

Jimp
2007-04-16, 03:27 PM
Sort of related question:
What class would you recommend for a battlefield control fighter? Straight fighter? Psionic warrior? Swordsage? Warblade? A mix?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-16, 03:32 PM
For a true battlefield controller, you (unfortunately) need a bunch of fighter. You can mix in various things to get even more bonus feats, i.e. Monk 2 (one of the UA monk "styles") and PsyWar 2. Monk 2 gets you the Overwhelming Attack variant from the PHB II, also, which is very useful, since your AoOs will do double damage as well.
Mixing in something with maneuvers later in the build is pretty much always a good idea for non-casters. Snagging the Thicket of Blades stance with a feat or two does a whole lot of good.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-16, 03:46 PM
Psychic warrior is ace too - Trip attacks are touches (and thus don't suffer much from the medium BAB) and you have Expansion, Hustle and such. Bonus feats too, just not quite as many as a fighter. It depends how far down the feat chains you want to go.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-16, 04:01 PM
The ultimate Battlefield Control character would most likely grab a level of two of Crusader at mid to high levels, to take advantage of a few Stone Dragon, Dedicated Soul, and White Raven maneuvers, and a few stances, as well.

And Bears, the Overwhelming Attack variant is for Fighter, and is a substitute for the 16th-level bonus feat. I assume you meant the Decisive Strike feat, which is the Flurry of Blows replacement for monks. That isn't useable with a reach weapon, however, so it's less than ideal. Better off getting Psionic Meditation and Psionic Strike—it amounts to the same thing as Overwhelming strike, really, especially if you take Kharmic Strike, as well.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-16, 04:03 PM
Yeah, I meant Decisive Strike. I forgot it's got the same limitations as Flurry.