Ancestral Relic + Vow of Poverty + Random ideas!!!

[j_spencer93]

I have seen it atleast twice suggested that if you take the vow to take ancestral relic but it seems to me that the ancestral relic would void the vow, so would kenshi. am i wrong?

Kenshi
Ancestral Relic
Item Familiar

All of these would void the vow i think...

[Rubik]

I have seen it atleast twice suggested that if you take the vow to take ancestral relic but it seems to me that the ancestral relic would void the vow, so would kenshi. am i wrong?It does kind of depend on what you use it on. Adding it to, say, your monk's unarmed strike wouldn't violate any vows, because it's only a magic item insofar as it's enhanced, but not otherwise.

[j_spencer93]

but adding it to any simple weapon (how i interoperate the vow) would then void it right>

[Rubik]

but adding it to any simple weapon (how i interoperate the vow) would then void it right>I imagine that it depends on whether your DM considers it worth money or not. If it only works for you and nobody else will buy it, you might be able to get away with it. But if your DM considers it valuable (despite maybe not working for anyone but you), then no.

Ask your DM.

[j_spencer93]

Lol i am DM. Was trying to see others opinions before determining how to rule it in my game. However, I do like the idea that it is worthless to anyone else.
Side note: is there a post already details ways to give items enchantments without enchanting them? I am curious now.
Also on another post I commented on about the vows i remember finding something like ancestral weapon but it was created by celestials specifically for you, but can seemingly find that now.

[Hiro Quester]

The point of the Vow, though, is that you donate your share of treasure to charity, isn't it? If you instead devote it to improving your ancestral relic, you are denying your vow.

Furthermore, your ancestral relic needs to be of masterwork quality. But you can't own a masterwork quality item with VOP.

And even further, enchanting your ancesrtal relic makes it magical. You can't own magical items either.


Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: you may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick.

I wouldn't allow the player to have both. Or I guess they could take ancestral relic, regarding your grandfathers simple wooden staff.

But there would be little point. As soon as you devote treasure to enhancing it, you'd violate view by devoting treasure to enhancing your item instead of helping the needy, and by owning or using a magic item.

[j_spencer93]

That is kind of how i saw it. Although does it say you must donate it? Idr off the top of my head but i thought that was just an example and you simple had to get rid of it. I COULD BE WRONG.

Lmao vow directly says you can't use magical items of any sort which means this entire discussion is pointless. Still i am curious to see what all allows you to do similar stuff as ancestral relic.
Might start another post to ask something....

[Troacctid]

Vow of Poverty forbids you from possessing or using magic or even masterwork items, so you cannot own an Ancestral Relic.

You certainly couldn't choose your unarmed strike as an Ancestral Relic under any circumstances as your unarmed strike is neither masterwork nor an item.

I don't see any possible interpretation of this interaction where the two feats combine in a useful way.

[Rubik]

But there would be little point. As soon as you devote treasure to enhancing it, you'd violate view by devoting treasure to enhancing your item instead of helping the needy, and by owning or using a magic item.Except you can sacrifice things that cannot be sold and otherwise would go to waste, since it's no good to you, the orphans at Little Annie's Orphanage, or anyone else.

"Oh, that giant, hand-carved marble fountain in the ruins is worth 200,000 gp, but we can't tote it to town? I think I'll sacrifice it to my unarmed strike on the cleric's portable altar so it can help me fight evil."


Vow of Poverty forbids you from possessing or using magic or even masterwork items, so you cannot own an Ancestral Relic.

You certainly couldn't choose your unarmed strike as an Ancestral Relic under any circumstances as your unarmed strike is neither masterwork nor an item.Unless you pay 300 gp at level 1 and are a monk, which is explicitly treated as a manufactured weapon for the purposes of all effects when it's beneficial to do so.

That counts here.

[Troacctid]

Unless you pay 300 gp at level 1 and are a monk, which is explicitly treated as a manufactured weapon for the purposes of all effects when it's beneficial to do so.

That counts here.

There are, like, so many reasons why that's nonsense.

a. You can't craft a pre-existing item into a masterwork item; you have to make the masterwork component as part of crafting the original item.
b. Your unarmed strike is not an item.
c. The Craft skill is not a spell or effect that enhances or improves either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
d. If your unarmed strike were somehow a magic item or a masterwork item, Vow of Poverty would prevent you from using it.
e. Your unarmed strike did not once belong to a member of your family or another person to whom you are connected.

[Vhaidara]

There are, like, so many reasons why that's nonsense.

You see, I agree with everything you wrote, except that you seem to think this means something in the context of 3.5. 90% of the edition is built around utter nonsense.

[Rubik]

There are, like, so many reasons why that's nonsense.

a. You can't craft a pre-existing item into a masterwork item; you have to make the masterwork component as part of crafting the original item.Hence doing so at level 1. You need some way to get extra money, such as the Mercantile Background feat, but it's doable.


b. Your unarmed strike is not an item.But it counts as a manufactured weapon (which is totally capable of being masterwork) when it benefits you.


c. The Craft skill is not a spell or effect that enhances or improves either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.Yes it is. Not a spell, but an effect, yes.


d. If your unarmed strike were somehow a magic item or a masterwork item, Vow of Poverty would prevent you from using it.Except it counts as a manufactured weapon when it is beneficial to do so. Otherwise Shatter would ruin your whole day.


e. Your unarmed strike did not once belong to a member of your family or another person to whom you are connected.Uh... I dunno about you, but MY DNA was passed down through my family for generations!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6HM9QXnVdk

That looks like a sexy masterwork body to me.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Slightly on-topic: There is a Monster of Legacy template in (you guessed it) Weapons of Legacy. It basically allows a creature to get legacy abilities without all the annoyances of rituals, costs, and items. Quote from the template: "Treat the monster as both an item of legacy and its wielder." I don't want to know what potential TO abuse you can get out of this (that's a lie, I do, really), but it's a decent approximation for a VOP ancestral relic. By RAW, it has LA --, so PCs can't use it, but you're the DM.

Another option is to allow a VOP ancestral relic by replacing gp costs with xp costs, with the usual 5 gp:1 xp exchange rate.

[j_spencer93]

But if it counts as a weapon can it be a monster of legacy, item familiar, kenshi chosen weapon, and have vow of poverty???

I think that should work actually....you yourself can be magical but you cost 0, however i could see someone arguing if you count as the weapon then vow of poverty is void. However you could argue same about the monk.

[Troacctid]

You see, I agree with everything you wrote, except that you seem to think this means something in the context of 3.5. 90% of the edition is built around utter nonsense.

There are enough silly things in the rules already without making up new ones that contradict the RAW. :smalltongue:

Let's say you have a beautifully crafted masterwork foot that was passed on to you by your Uncle Igor, and you choose it as your Ancestral Relic and enhance it as a magic weapon. You still don't get around Vow of Poverty, because it is a magic weapon, and using magic items of any kind--doesn't matter whether it's natural or manufactured or even a weapon at all--violates your vow.

"Oh, but it only counts as a weapon if it would be beneficial!" Well, since counting it as a weapon would immediately cause you to lose your Vow of Poverty, that means it will never count as a weapon, so good luck attacking with it. Not that it matters, I guess, because it doesn't have to be a weapon for you to lose your vow, it only needs to be magical, which it is, so poof, goodbye vow.

[j_spencer93]

There are enough silly things in the rules already without making up new ones that contradict the RAW. :smalltongue:

Let's say you have a beautifully crafted masterwork foot that was passed on to you by your Uncle Igor, and you choose it as your Ancestral Relic and enhance it as a magic weapon. You still don't get around Vow of Poverty, because it is a magic weapon, and using magic items of any kind--doesn't matter whether it's natural or manufactured or even a weapon at all--violates your vow.

"Oh, but it only counts as a weapon if it would be beneficial!" Well, since counting it as a weapon would immediately cause you to lose your Vow of Poverty, that means it will never count as a weapon, so good luck attacking with it. Not that it matters, I guess, because it doesn't have to be a weapon for you to lose your vow, it only needs to be magical, which it is, so poof, goodbye vow.

But as asked above, would being a monster of legacy void the vow???
All seriousness though a monster of legacy could be its own ancestral relic and item familiar it seems. As well as the target of the Kenshi ability.

[Troacctid]

But as asked above, would being a monster of legacy void the vow???
All seriousness though a monster of legacy could be its own ancestral relic and item familiar it seems. As well as the target of the Kenshi ability.

It looks like a Monster of Legacy could have a Vow of Poverty just fine. However, it would only work for an NPC, since player characters can't have the template.

A Monster of Legacy could not be its own Ancestral Relic or Item Familiar as it merely gains legacy abilities, it doesn't become a legacy item.

[j_spencer93]

It looks like a Monster of Legacy could have a Vow of Poverty just fine. However, it would only work for an NPC, since player characters can't have the template.

A Monster of Legacy could not be its own Ancestral Relic or Item Familiar as it merely gains legacy abilities, it doesn't become a legacy item.

Treat the monster as both an item of legacy and its wielder.
i don't know. I can see how the way it is worded could apply otherwise but...Seriously the sentence may only reference the first sentence of that paragraph but ,the way it is written, it is arguable. If that had just used a comma to add that sentence to the first then I would say it was a concrete no.

Jokes aside, a VOP MOL sounds kind of like a cool BBEG (or BBGG???) for an evil campaign. Fluff wise atleast.

Could you have a VOP psicrystal? lol worthless but now i am just wondering where all i can shove this damn feat. How about a MOL psicrystal?

[danzibr]

That looks like a sexy masterwork body to me.
This made the thread worth reading.

[j_spencer93]

Ya lol at this point it has really devolved from the original concept. You have any wacky idea to add?

[danzibr]

Ya lol at this point it has really devolved from the original concept. You have any wacky idea to add?
Uhh not really. I can say I believe Item Familiar specifically would not work because the feat requires a magic item of a certain minimum value IIRC.

[j_spencer93]

But ancestral relic gives you a cost...wow that was extremely strange to say, and actually its just a value. Now i can see where a DM would go either way with this but i think i would agree. What of the kenshi though?

[Barbarian Horde]

Now stack Improved Natural Attack as much as you can. As your backup weapon

[Rubik]

Now stack Improved Natural Attack as much as you can.That would be once.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What of the kenshi though?
Do you mean the kensai prestige class in Complete Warrior? The Signature Weapon (Su) ability doesn't require a masterwork weapon, as long as you choose to imbue your natural weapons or unarmed strikes. You don't have to sacrifice gold, but xp, and your weapon is useless to anyone else, so it probably doesn't have a gp value ('selling +5 vorpal foot, 200k, versatile unarmed strike not provided'). So far, so good. But then you run into the restriction on magic items that Troacctid mentioned, and that's where you fail your Vow.

Ancestral Relic + Kensai Signature Weapon can probably affect the same item, but the maximum enchantment (+10) doesn't change, so it's not terribly useful.

[Hiro Quester]

You explicitly are supposed to donate to the needy. It's not just a "don't spend your money" type requirement.


Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its work among the poor). While taking upon herself the burden of poverty voluntarily, an ascetic recognizes that many people do not have the freedom to choose poverty, but instead have it forced upon them, and seeks to better those unfortunates as much as possible.

Plus the idea of a PC with a vow of poverty also having a weapon worth 380 000 gp at level 20 is also rather contradictory.

And you can't just enchant your own fists (they are a manufactured weapon only for DR, lethal damage etc. purposes). That's why the Necklace of Natural Attacks exists. It enables you to magically enhance natural weapons.

[Barbarian Horde]

Greater Mighty Wallop
http://www.toysrus.com/graphics/product_images/pTRU1-10132821_alternate1_dt.jpg
Effectively this would be your monk at one point

[Vhaidara]

And you can't just enchant your own fists (they are a manufactured weapon only for DR, lethal damage etc. purposes).

This is wrong.
Kensai explicitly works with your fists
Manufactured weapons have no bearing on DR or lethal/nonlethal damage (saps are manufactured and do nonlethal, anyone with Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal)

[ExLibrisMortis]

And you can't just enchant your own fists (they are a manufactured weapon only for DR, lethal damage etc. purposes).
The Kensai ability explicitly allows enchanting your fists. I'm not disagreeing with you otherwise, just pointing out this exception. You could still not have an ancestral relic item familiar 'body', or anything like that, but you could have a signature weapon 'body'.

As for the donating treasure, that's easy, donate the treasure, spend xp on your item! As per the BOED (p. 30): "Alternatively, an ascetic spellcaster can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive components, with 1 XP equivalent to 5 gp value of components." That doesn't get around the 'masterwork' or '2000 gp worth' requirements for ancestral relic and item familiar respectively, but it shows that donating is not the problem.

[shaikujin]

Regarding Unarmed Strikes aren't masterwork -

Champions of Valor has a Region call "Chosen Born".
One of the bonus equipment choice is "deity’s favored weapon (masterwork)".

There are several deities that have unarmed strikes as their favored weapon.



Hence, masterwork unarmed strikes is possible.

[j_spencer93]

Not to mention wouldnt the sentence saying a monster of legend counts as a creature and a weapon allow you to idk...enhance it like a weapon? It seems to me i would.

"You may not use any magic item of an sort", this sentence though makes me wonder something. Would the fact you count as a weapon void this? Prob not since it basically same thing as monk (similar concept, not same thing). Anyways, as soon as you enchant yourself i am curious if that counts as using a magic item...

As donating to the needy...you have the VoP, you are pretty damn needy lol your poor, cant use magical items, and freaking wasted two feats. Poor needy bastard.

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah. I was talking about ancestral relic, not Kensai. I don't know much about Kensai.

And I was talking about a monk's fists counting as a manufactured weapon for spells and effects that enhance weapon damage. I did t phrase that very accurately or clearly, sorry.

Natural weapons can't be permanently enhanced (aside from Kensai type investments I guess) like a magic weapon because they aren't masterwork. You need a necklace of natural attacks to add weapon enhancements to natural weapons.

[j_spencer93]

Yeah. I was talking about ancestral relic, not Kensai. I don't know much about Kensai.

And I was talking about a monk's fists counting as a manufactured weapon for spells and effects that enhance weapon damage. I did t phrase that very accurately or clearly, sorry.

Natural weapons can't be permanently enhanced (aside from Kensai type investments I guess) like a magic weapon because they aren't masterwork. You need a necklace of natural attacks to add weapon enhancements to natural weapons.

Well that brings us back to MoL. The entire creature now counts as a weapon, so it should be able to be enhanced like a weapon. Which creates oddities, using the template and feats both. Can you be a defending Balor? lol

Actually it can be enhanced as a weapon. MoL literally progresses you like a Weapon of legacy so you can enchant yourself. With that template the entire being counts as a weapon so RAW you can select yourself as a ancestral relic/item familiar. Now what this does idk, since weapon enchantments on a creature are just freaking strange. I would say a +5 balor would get +5 to all attacks and damage though.

[shaikujin]

Natural weapons can't be permanently enhanced (aside from Kensai type investments I guess) like a magic weapon because they aren't masterwork.


Regarding that:


Regarding Unarmed Strikes aren't masterwork -

Champions of Valor has a Region call "Chosen Born".
One of the bonus equipment choice is "deity’s favored weapon (masterwork)".

There are several deities that have unarmed strikes as their favored weapon.



Hence, masterwork unarmed strikes is possible.

There are deities with "claw" as favored weapons. Sharess, for example. So certain types of natural weapons can be masterwork as well.



Also, warforged with adamantine body might work. Adamantine items are always of masterwork quality I think.

[j_spencer93]

lol got to love the crazy half baked ideas this site can create

[Vhaidara]

lol got to love the crazy half baked ideas this site can create

I've seen you around for a while. You should know this is very tame for us.

[danzibr]

Regarding Unarmed Strikes aren't masterwork -

Champions of Valor has a Region call "Chosen Born".
One of the bonus equipment choice is "deity’s favored weapon (masterwork)".

There are several deities that have unarmed strikes as their favored weapon.

Hence, masterwork unarmed strikes is possible.

Regarding that:

There are deities with "claw" as favored weapons. Sharess, for example. So certain types of natural weapons can be masterwork as well.

Also, warforged with adamantine body might work. Adamantine items are always of masterwork quality I think.
Now *these* are interesting.

Think I'll add them to my Totemist handbook, if you don't mind :)

(credit will be given to you, of course)

[j_spencer93]

I've seen you around for a while. You should know this is very tame for us.

True. I have seen some ideas stretching the limits of the game the limits of the english language. In all seriousness some of the ideas on here and baffling in a good, and some, a bad way.

[shaikujin]

Now *these* are interesting.

Think I'll add them to my Totemist handbook, if you don't mind :)

(credit will be given to you, of course)

I don't mind at all, I'll be honored :)

[Troacctid]

I'm pretty sure Adamantine Body (and Mithral Body) only makes your composite plating masterwork, not your unarmed strikes or your slam attack. (The masterwork quality is already accounted for in the armor check penalty imposed by the feat.) Hence Warforged Chargers having a separate special ability to make their slam attacks count as adamantine.