Ventriloquism Spell Variant that's Actually Good

[Miss Disaster]

Since the advent of 3.X play, the Ventriloquism spell has pretty much been considered a lower-tier, niche-oriented 1st level arcane spell that rarely ever sees the light of day.

I've always wanted to see a Ventriloquism spell variant that is truly a combat upgrade. A spell that sorcs, wizards & bards would find as an upgrade from a lower-tier spell to a middle-tier spell worth considering for a decent number of combat scenarios. I'm not looking for a broken spell - but instead, a respectably performing Ventriloquism spell variant with balanced game mechanics.

I certainly do welcome any suggestions and insight any of you may have on this endeavour. For now, I'll throw some ideas out on how this spell could be considered more worthwhile using exiting 3.5 game mechanics. Granted, this likely means bumping up its spell level. But since it's a saving throw spell, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

1. CASTING TIME = SWIFT ACTION .... Its current Standard Action casting time makes the spell less likely to ever be a primary combat consideration for a 1st level slot. Improve the casting time to a Swift Action, and suddenly it has more in-combat value.

2. REMOVE VERBAL CASTING COMPONENT ... Now it becomes a no-somatic, no verbal casting spell. Since it's a trickery/stealth spell anyway, this is a sizable stealthcasting improvement. And it also it allows for a potential workaround to enemy Silence spells.

***

Okay ... to compensate for basically adding the Quicken Spell and Silent Spell metamagic (eek! +5 to spell level!), we're gonna have to trim the spell down somewhere else. Perhaps reducing he duration to 1 Round / Level ... or perhaps 3 Rounds? I'd like to get this spell variant down to about 3rd level if possible.

Thoughts?

[Miss Disaster]

I had a feeling this thread might get relatively small interest. :-) Ventriloquism is a fairly unpopular spell, even though (I've been told) it's been around since First Edition.

That all said, I'd still love to find a way to make this spell capture a spellcaster's attention. While still keeping it relatively low in Spell Level ... since my prior post would take my "upgrades" and make it a 6th level spell. Yucky!

[Crake]

Well, you could always just apply the consecrate spell metamagic to it, that'll make it [Good]

[WhamBamSam]

I actually quite like Ventriloquism. I don't really mind its existing form either, since it's mostly for sneaky Bards who want to remain hidden while doing all their noisy singing and casting and whatnot.

Maybe it's just that I really like sneaks, or maybe I just really like the stupid joke of a Warforged Bard turning into an Animated Object with Alter Self and appearing to sing from other places with no one knowing that he is the table.

[Miss Disaster]

Anybody else have any input?

[JDL]

I'd rate it as slightly better as a level 1 spell than Shield. Using this spell combined with Invisibility removes the biggest penalty to hiding while spellcasting, that being the enemy tracking your location by your verbal spell component. This is especially good for characters that use Invisibility to defend while casting full-round spells such as Summon Monster.

[Surpriser]

Removing the verbal component (or simply stating that the verbal component can already be projected somewhere else) would increase the usefulness of the spell without making it overpowered for a 1st level spell.

You should also look past its "combat effectiveness" and more into general usefulness in wide range of different situations (not necessarily combat).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Simply removing the verbal component would make the spell suckier for bards compared to wizards, which I assume is the opposite of what you'd want, if anything.

All bard spells gain Verbal components if they didn't have them already, and Bards can't benefit from Silent Spell. The only way around this is to explicitly state in the spell description that bards can use it w/o verbal components. As of now, I only know of two spells like this, Joyful Noise and Amplify. Both are bard-only spells, and both exist primarily as a way for the bard to remove or bypass Silence spells, so he can actually function. In other words, they'd be utterly pointless as spells if they lacked such an exception in their text, justifying its presence.

[Miss Disaster]

@ JDL .... I agree. Although I consider Ventriloquism to be a more cerebrally-complex spell and one that blossoms when used by a creative player with a DM who's a rules expert as well as one understands the nuanced contexts of the spell. That all said, this is a spell that rarely ever shows up on character sheets. For Bards as well as Wiz/Sorc characters. Shield is a simpler spell and significantly more popular. I'd venture that it's in 80%+ of all spellbooks I've seen over the years.

Your summoner example is a good one of how to maximize usage of Ventriloquism. Unfortunately, the scenario you mentioned necessitates a summoner having to cast two 1 minute/level spells (Ventriloquism & Invisibility - unless there's magic items helping out) before getting down to business with her primary shtick. That takes a lot of foresight and potentially is wrought action-economy dilemmas. It's scenarios like this that make me think that it would be a good experiment to extend Ventriloquism to a 10 minute/level spell ... while still making it fairly-well balanced and a contender as a good-or-better 1st level spell.

@Surpriser .... There's no doubt that Ventriloquism has some superb applications in gameplay that involves espionage, urban socializing, court intrigue/politics and the like. Having played a years of campaigns (even in Living Greyhawk and Living FR play) where those scenarios were prominent, I still can't recall ever seeing Ventriloquism getting stage time as a go-to or supporting 1st level spell.

And yes, removing that verbal component would be useful for kicking off this stealth-oriented spell without announcing it to the whole world. Which leads us to ...

@SteamOfTheSky .... I agree. And I should note, I meant to preface my OP with stating how Ventriloquism sucks as a Sorc/Wiz spell, and is below-average as a Bard spell. The Bard spellcasting dynamic would certainly require that added rules text that you mentioned.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Frankly, I don't care if it sucks for a sorc/wiz. It's just one more spell on their giant list to them. For bard, it's right within the sort of niche he's supposed to be good at, and it actually kind of irks me that he doesn't have it at a lower level than them (as a cantrip it's too strong, so I guess buff it to be a 2nd level sorc/wiz spell).

I'm not sure how exactly it's better for bard than sorc/wiz currently, either. Because bard has stealthy class skills? UA Illusionist Wizard can have them, too. And there's plenty of sneaky PrC's that advance arcane casting (Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, Shadowcraft Mage, maybe Daggerspell Mage...) anyway. Meanwhile, sorc/wiz can at least apply a silent spell lesser metamagic rod to it while bard cannot, period. Ever. So to me, if anything, as it's currently written it's a subpar sorc/wiz spell and sucky as a bard spell. Needing to make sound to cast it, and thus reveal your location, and thus...oftentimes make casting it in the first place self-defeating? That's it's biggest issue.

[Miss Disaster]

Ventriloquism
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 Swift Action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Intelligible sound, usually speech
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No

Accompanied with a closed mouth, your fingers purse together to imitate a chattering puppet. A moment later, your voice emanates from a statue at the far end of the room ...

You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it).

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Okay, so that's my attempt to "fix" this spell and make it more alluring to a Bard, Sorc or Wiz as a spell you'd consider worthy of a 1st level spell slot .... that you wouldn't even mind casting in combat. All taking into consideration comments and suggestions by those who posted in this thread. 3 changes were made:

1. Changed Casting Time from 1 Standard Action to 1 Swift Action.
2. Changed Components from "V,F" to "S" and added italicized flavor text explaining the rudiments of the Somatic component.

StreamOfTheSky, I looked at Spell Compendium's version of Joyful Noise and Amplify (per your prior post). Both spells are Component: S and aimed at Bards. They both share in common flavor text that describes the generalities of the somatic component. Which is what I did in this revision.

So what do you all think of this slight upgrade? Is this a spell that you'd consider a good-to-great performer and a strong spellbook candidate as a 1st level spell? Perhaps this should be a 2nd level spell if you add in a 10 minute / level duration?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Looks good. I'd make it Sorc/Wiz 2, Bard 1. Being a swift, it might be a bit strong at those levels, though.

[Miss Disaster]

Looks good. I'd make it Sorc/Wiz 2, Bard 1. Being a swift, it might be a bit strong at those levels, though.
Agreed, that sounds more appropriate. I'll edit my prior post to reflect those changes.

As for the Swift Action casting time, I seriously doubt the spell is gonna be a top-tier spell. Although I would consider it good-to-very-good and should sway more spellcasters for selection purposes.

Thanks for the collaboration!

[Ashtagon]

May I ask, what situations do you see this spell being used in? This always struck me as being just the spell when you need to cause some level of deception in a social situation, especially if a crowd is involved.

I'm honestly not sure what use it could be in a combat situation, without changing the spell beyond recognition. If you can give an example of what you want to be able to do with it, I might have some suggestions.

[atemu1234]

Anybody else have any input?

My group's bard once made his vooce emanate from between the princess's breasts. That's the best story I've got.

[WhamBamSam]

May I ask, what situations do you see this spell being used in? This always struck me as being just the spell when you need to cause some level of deception in a social situation, especially if a crowd is involved.

I'm honestly not sure what use it could be in a combat situation, without changing the spell beyond recognition. If you can give an example of what you want to be able to do with it, I might have some suggestions.Hiding in a bush and making your voice come from a different bush so you stay hidden while casting/using Bardic Music.

[Miss Disaster]

May I ask, what situations do you see this spell being used in? This always struck me as being just the spell when you need to cause some level of deception in a social situation, especially if a crowd is involved.

I'm honestly not sure what use it could be in a combat situation, without changing the spell beyond recognition. If you can give an example of what you want to be able to do with it, I might have some suggestions.Every DM I've had adjudicates "in combat" Ventriloquism a little differently. Just as most DMs have their own take on the efficacy and rule-adjudication of figment spells in general. Especially because there's a subjective way of interpreting the creativity of this spell and the perceiving enemies that will react to it.