Iron Guard's Glare

[LairdMaon]

Does that stack?

If three PCs with that stance on threaten the same bad guy does each PC gain the benefit of the other two Glares?

[Crake]

I believe this would fall under same source, thus would be a no. I would probably go so far as to say that the penalty wouldn't apply if he were to attack either of you, so two crusaders wouldn't be able to just give the enemy an unmitigatable -4, due to being able to stack effects in a way that is most favourable, thus they could stack it in either way to allow them to attack either crusader without penalty as they like.

[LairdMaon]

Hm...

It looks to be an typed penalty that the flanked guy is being subjected too. That make a difference?

[WhamBamSam]

Hm...

It looks to be an typed penalty that the flanked guy is being subjected too. That make a difference?No, it's pretty clearly an untyped penalty. I'm not sure I see where Crake is coming from with the two Crusaders situation though. The unavoidable -4 is how I would rule it if something were trapped between two Crusaders.

[Crake]

No, it's pretty clearly an untyped penalty. I'm not sure I see where Crake is coming from with the two Crusaders situation though. The unavoidable -4 is how I would rule it if something were trapped between two Crusaders.

I was coming from the idea that you can only be affected by 1 iron guard's glare, as they identical effects that would replace eachother. In that case, the affected creature gets to decide in which order it is being affected (and thus which crusader he could attack without penalty).

[WhamBamSam]

I was coming from the idea that you can only be affected by 1 iron guard's glare, as they identical effects that would replace eachother. In that case, the affected creature gets to decide in which order it is being affected (and thus which crusader he could attack without penalty).Hmm, I suppose they're the only reasonable character to be determining "most beneficial order" in that situation. I'm still not sure there's a way around the penalty though. Say we have a situation with n Crusaders, C_1, C_2, ... C_n, a Warblade W, and an opponent, O within reach of all of them.

If O attacks C_1, C_1's Iron Guard's Glare does not apply, so the only penalties to choose between are those from C_2 through C_n. O takes a -4 to his attack roll in either case. Attacking any other crusader works similarly.
If O attacks W, there are n Iron Guard's Glare penalties to choose between, but there's a -4 on the attack roll in all cases.

It seems to me that you can't choose the order in which the penalties apply until the penalties start applying.

[Crake]

Hmm, I suppose they're the only reasonable character to be determining "most beneficial order" in that situation. I'm still not sure there's a way around the penalty though. Say we have a situation with n Crusaders, C_1, C_2, ... C_n, a Warblade W, and an opponent, O within reach of all of them.

If O attacks C_1, C_1's Iron Guard's Glare does not apply, so the only penalties to choose between are those from C_2 through C_n. O takes a -4 to his attack roll in either case. Attacking any other crusader works similarly.
If O attacks W, there are n Iron Guard's Glare penalties to choose between, but there's a -4 on the attack roll in all cases.

It seems to me that you can't choose the order in which the penalties apply until the penalties start applying.

It's more a case of which effect applies. So in your example, O would choose to have C_1's iron guard glare being the effect being applied. Note that when someone attacks a crusader with iron guard's glare up, it's not that he's not being affected by the stance, but the penalty from the stance is not applying. If you only allow one of the same effect to operate on a creature, then O merely needs to choose which crusader he wants to attack, choose to be affected by their iron guard's glare, and then may attack them without penalty. It's a question of whether you can be affected by the same effect from two different sources really. If you answer that with a yes, you can be, then the -4 will always apply, if you answer no, then the answer is the -4 only applies to characters who aren't in iron guard's glare.

[Hellborn_Blight]

But you can be under the same effect more than once. In the case of buffs that have the same bonus type but different duration, then the longer duration takes over when the shorter one is gone. But in this case that doesn't matter. Specifically in this case the penalty doesn't apply to the person using it so there is no duplication, only separate instances. A penalty for that guy, a penalty for the other guy. For those two crusaders, it doesn't repeat, because it can't.

[Red Fel]

The way I see it, there are only three possibilities.

Possibility 1: Both penalties apply, and stack. That means that the subject receives -4 to attack either Crusader, and -8 to attack anybody else. I find this to be unlikely, because of stacking rules.

Possibility 2: Both penalties apply, but don't stack, and the Crusaders are exempt. That means that the subject receives -4 to attack any ally, but no penalty to attack either Crusader. I find this to be unlikely, because the RAW specifically provides that the penalty applies when an ally is attacked; the fact that he is a Crusader should be irrelevant.

Possibility 3: Both penalties apply, but don't stack; however, they overlap. That means that each Crusader gives the subject a non-stacking -4 to attack anyone but him. As a result, the -4 also applies to each Crusader, thanks to the other Crusader. I find this to be the most likely outcome.

See also this thread (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1280981).

[WhamBamSam]

The way I see it, there are only three possibilities.

Possibility 1: Both penalties apply, and stack. That means that the subject receives -4 to attack either Crusader, and -8 to attack anybody else. I find this to be unlikely, because of stacking rules.

Possibility 2: Both penalties apply, but don't stack, and the Crusaders are exempt. That means that the subject receives -4 to attack any ally, but no penalty to attack either Crusader. I find this to be unlikely, because the RAW specifically provides that the penalty applies when an ally is attacked; the fact that he is a Crusader should be irrelevant.

Possibility 3: Both penalties apply, but don't stack; however, they overlap. That means that each Crusader gives the subject a non-stacking -4 to attack anyone but him. As a result, the -4 also applies to each Crusader, thanks to the other Crusader. I find this to be the most likely outcome.

See also this thread (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1280981).The penalties won't apply to the other Crusaders' attacks, unless they designate each other as opponents.

[Red Fel]

The penalties won't apply to the other Crusaders' attacks, unless they designate each other as opponents.

Not to the other Crusader's attacks, but to attacks against the other Crusader. I may have been unclear.