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Fortuna
2015-04-24, 05:19 AM
So, a project I'd like to do at some point in the future is write or adapt a system for a campaign where all the PCs are AIs in a cyberpunk (or postcyberpunk) setting. Sort of like Shadowrun, except without the physical side and the magic. I figure the basic unit of the game - the equivalent of story or dungeon crawl - is likely to be hacking into a secure system and doing something with the data inside. Unlike physical entry and combat, which is a well-established element of RPGs, I don't have much of a basis for how to handle this. Does anyone have any suggestions for games which include that as a significant element? I'm particularly interested in questions of 'spatial' relationships between system elements and possible types of opposition, whether active or passive, and in games where hacking is more of a team activity rather than a role on the team.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-24, 08:08 AM
GURPS Cyberpunk addressed this way back in the '90's. The internet was just barely a thing then, so the technology and terminology might be a little out of date.

This was the game book that was confiscated by the Secret Service prior to publication because they claimed it was a "manual on hacking".

JAL_1138
2015-04-24, 08:10 AM
Closest I can think would be Cyberpunk 2020, which is pretty much Shadowrun with no magic. There's a lot of focus on the cyberware and combat aspects of it, though.

Edit: Gurps is probably much broader.

Gavran
2015-04-24, 01:14 PM
Uhm... do you mean hacking in the "everyone gets transported to the digital world" (non)sense? (Which is fine if that's what you want, it just has nothing in common with hacking except for maybe some buzzwords.) Otherwise I'm not sure how one would really base an rpg game on it.

mikeejimbo
2015-04-24, 01:35 PM
Uhm... do you mean hacking in the "everyone gets transported to the digital world" (non)sense? (Which is fine if that's what you want, it just has nothing in common with hacking except for maybe some buzzwords.) Otherwise I'm not sure how one would really base an rpg game on it.

Probably exactly like it works on TV. "All right, roll your programming skill to write a GUI in Visual Basic to track the IP."

Anonymouswizard
2015-04-24, 01:57 PM
Probably exactly like it works on TV. "All right, roll your programming skill to write a GUI in Visual Basic to track the IP."

Yep, my recommendation would be any game you want. A homebrew system would probably work like shadowrun's hacking, with you attributes being 'attack', 'control', 'stealth' and the like. No, I'm not supplying one, too busy coming up with backgrounds to use in an eclipse phase cyberpunk hack (speaking of which a party of infolifes sleeved as infomorphs).

Sith_Happens
2015-04-24, 02:39 PM
You could always run it like a standard dungeon crawl with each PC controlling an avatar, using the justification that they all contain advanced protocols that make computer systems look like video games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBeDOvxatKw#2m42s).:smalltongue:

JeenLeen
2015-04-24, 03:38 PM
A game set in the net in oWoD Mage: The Ascension could fit this, if you want the PCs to be AIs. You could be Virtual Adepts, AIs (or spirits that act like AIs) that live in the net, or just folk who wound up there somehow but are good hackers. Regardless of whether you like the d10 White Wolf system, you might find the Virtual Adept splatbook informative/inspirational.

You could probably easily rework the different Spheres to hacking (basically, make what the VAs believe true in your setting.)

Fortuna
2015-04-24, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the quick responses, folks.


GURPS Cyberpunk addressed this way back in the '90's. The internet was just barely a thing then, so the technology and terminology might be a little out of date.

This was the game book that was confiscated by the Secret Service prior to publication because they claimed it was a "manual on hacking".

Can you go into a little more detail? What kind of mechanics does it use (beyond, you know, being GURPS)? How does it address role differentiation in what's classically been a position on a team as opposed to a team activity?


Uhm... do you mean hacking in the "everyone gets transported to the digital world" (non)sense? (Which is fine if that's what you want, it just has nothing in common with hacking except for maybe some buzzwords.) Otherwise I'm not sure how one would really base an rpg game on it.

Well, I mean. The party's AIs, so they're already 'in' the digital world in a sense. The idea is that they're obtaining remote access to systems by whatever means available, social or digital (or even in some rare cases physical with drones or patsies), which seems pretty close to hacking to me.


You could always run it like a standard dungeon crawl with each PC controlling an avatar, using the justification that they all contain advanced protocols that make computer systems look like video games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBeDOvxatKw#2m42s).:smalltongue:

The problems here are twofold. Firstly, I don't actually like dungeon crawls, and secondly, I want stealth and avoidance to play a much larger role than combat in the resolution of problems from a thematic-mechanical perspective.


A game set in the net in oWoD Mage: The Ascension could fit this, if you want the PCs to be AIs. You could be Virtual Adepts, AIs (or spirits that act like AIs) that live in the net, or just folk who wound up there somehow but are good hackers. Regardless of whether you like the d10 White Wolf system, you might find the Virtual Adept splatbook informative/inspirational.

You could probably easily rework the different Spheres to hacking (basically, make what the VAs believe true in your setting.)

Hmm. Based on what I know of oWoD, this sounds likely to be a lot more mystical than I wanted. While oWoD Mage sounds fascinating, I'm not sure how well-suited it is to relatively hard cyberpunk/postcyberpunk?

Maglubiyet
2015-04-24, 08:13 PM
Can you go into a little more detail? What kind of mechanics does it use (beyond, you know, being GURPS)? How does it address role differentiation in what's classically been a position on a team as opposed to a team activity?


Any excuse to look through an old gaming book...

First you've got to have your neural interface, the thing that let's you control your equipment by thought. There were several levels of the technology: first-generation, second-generation, and the latest, the environmental interface. The environmental interface produced "a complete three-dimensional world in which all systems and data were represented as objects that could be interacted with in real-time." How the world is presented is based on which module you use (deep space, medieval, abstract, etc.)

Then you've got your cyberdeck that runs special programs to connect the Net with your mind via your neural interface. They come in different complexity levels and speeds and a number of "slots" to run programs in - a cyberdeck can only run as many programs simultaneously as it has slots. The netrunner jacks into the cyberdeck to explore cyberspace.

Cyberspace is laid out in "nodes". The netrunner has to "hop" from node to node to move through the Net. Speed is determined by neural interface and the speed of your deck. Distance traveled is based on cyberdeck complexity. It's got rules for how to map the system and the various types of systems that are connected (academic, banking, energy, government, etc.)

Cyberdecks can run various programs that do a variety of different things. They've got over two dozen attack programs listed and maybe a dozen or more ICE (Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics) or defensive. There are rules for breaking into systems, detecting other users, concealing yourself, and of course combat.

Actually, this is pretty darn cool given that it was published in 1990. That's before the widespread use of the internet and the Matrix movie. It draws heavily from the cyberpunk genre from the 1980's, most notably the book Neuromancer. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

EDIT: Summary -- GURPS Cyberpunk has over 35 pages, including sidebars, dedicated to the Net and Netrunning. It's also got rules for running an AI as a character. For what you're planning, it's probably worth a look if you can find a cheap copy or download. The information is a bit dated as far as the speeds and weights of computers, but not as much as you'd expect.

Gavran
2015-04-24, 08:55 PM
Well, I mean. The party's AIs, so they're already 'in' the digital world in a sense. The idea is that they're obtaining remote access to systems by whatever means available, social or digital (or even in some rare cases physical with drones or patsies), which seems pretty close to hacking to me.

But the problem is there of course isn't actually a "digital world." And if you don't want to go that route, I don't know that you could get much more in-depth than a game like Shadowrun does, and you could definitely end up as shallow as D&D treats lockpicking. Which probably wouldn't make a great focus for a game. But then you mention social approaches and such, maybe I'm mis-reading you and you just want a good hacking system, not a good hacking system that replaces the depth of most combat/adventuring systems?

The Grue
2015-04-24, 10:56 PM
Is this the part where I recommend Eclipse Phase? :D

Fortuna
2015-04-25, 12:41 AM
Any excuse to look through an old gaming book...

First you've got to have your neural interface, the thing that let's you control your equipment by thought. There were several levels of the technology: first-generation, second-generation, and the latest, the environmental interface. The environmental interface produced "a complete three-dimensional world in which all systems and data were represented as objects that could be interacted with in real-time." How the world is presented is based on which module you use (deep space, medieval, abstract, etc.)

Then you've got your cyberdeck that runs special programs to connect the Net with your mind via your neural interface. They come in different complexity levels and speeds and a number of "slots" to run programs in - a cyberdeck can only run as many programs simultaneously as it has slots. The netrunner jacks into the cyberdeck to explore cyberspace.

Cyberspace is laid out in "nodes". The netrunner has to "hop" from node to node to move through the Net. Speed is determined by neural interface and the speed of your deck. Distance traveled is based on cyberdeck complexity. It's got rules for how to map the system and the various types of systems that are connected (academic, banking, energy, government, etc.)

Cyberdecks can run various programs that do a variety of different things. They've got over two dozen attack programs listed and maybe a dozen or more ICE (Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics) or defensive. There are rules for breaking into systems, detecting other users, concealing yourself, and of course combat.

Actually, this is pretty darn cool given that it was published in 1990. That's before the widespread use of the internet and the Matrix movie. It draws heavily from the cyberpunk genre from the 1980's, most notably the book Neuromancer. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

EDIT: Summary -- GURPS Cyberpunk has over 35 pages, including sidebars, dedicated to the Net and Netrunning. It's also got rules for running an AI as a character. For what you're planning, it's probably worth a look if you can find a cheap copy or download. The information is a bit dated as far as the speeds and weights of computers, but not as much as you'd expect.

Hm. Sounds a lot like Shadowrun (although based on the timeline I think the influence would run the other way). I'll keep an eye out.


But the problem is there of course isn't actually a "digital world." And if you don't want to go that route, I don't know that you could get much more in-depth than a game like Shadowrun does, and you could definitely end up as shallow as D&D treats lockpicking. Which probably wouldn't make a great focus for a game. But then you mention social approaches and such, maybe I'm mis-reading you and you just want a good hacking system, not a good hacking system that replaces the depth of most combat/adventuring systems?

Essentially, what I want is a mechanical system for gaining access to secure digital systems which has comparable depth to most combat/adventuring systems, without actually just being a combat/adventuring system. In particular, I'd like a lot more emphasis on stealth and subtlety rather than open conflict.


Is this the part where I recommend Eclipse Phase? :D

I don't know, is it? Why do you recommend Eclipse Phase? What mechanical concepts does it contribute?

malkarnivore
2015-04-25, 01:03 AM
Is this the part where I recommend Eclipse Phase? :D

Why yes, yes it is.

dem nanoswarms don't hack themselves, and hacking a swarmanoid and deleting the ego inside never gets old.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-25, 09:30 AM
Hm. Sounds a lot like Shadowrun (although based on the timeline I think the influence would run the other way). I'll keep an eye out.

I dunno, the last version of Shadowrun I had was 3e. I don't remember the rules being very developed for netrunning, but I'm sure it's improved over the years.

kardar233
2015-04-25, 10:35 PM
Eclipse Phase's hacking support is not nearly detailed enough for this unless it's been expanded in a recent book.

You know, what I'd do in this case is refluff standard Shadowrun into taking place entirely in cyberspace. You're four AIs hacking into a digital fortress, protected by a mix of dumb programs and enemy AIs. The spoofing specialist goes in the front door, convincing the ICE that it's a legitimate data packet, while your dataphage gets ready for a frontal assault, etc.

mikeejimbo
2015-04-28, 02:57 PM
I just had a potentially more useful thought than I had before.

Although I haven't read them myself, tyne Fate-powered Leverage Roleplaying game might be useful. After all, each hacking mission is more or less a heist. Plus I think there is a supplement focusing even more on the hackers.