[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)

[ErrantX]

We went through 50 pages in like, a month. WOW guys!!

We went through another 50 pages in like, 2-3 weeks.

---

The Path of War continues onward!

Within the pages of this tome, your options for martial characters more than double! Within Path of War Expanded you will find more maneuvers, stances, and feats for your existing martial disciples as well as a host of new options! There are new classes, archetypes, martial traditions, and even the new class template that provides a way to use a single archetype for different character classes.

Within Path of War Expanded, you will find:


Three new base classes, from the ill-omened harbinger, to the psychic zealot, and finally the arcane mystic who all mix supernatural elements into their martial combat styles.
Nine new martial disciplines
A host of archetypes for the three classes from Path of War and the three new classes
Martial archetypes for core classes
Class templates, which provides archetypes that work across multiple classes
Martial style feats
More martial traditions


And new and optional rules and clarifications to martial combat that will take your martial characters to a whole new level!
Come and enjoy the spoils of battle with Path of War Expanded!

Table of Contents for the project:

- The Harbinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HCtvRArIRPjcClMf5KVJrDBrkV_gBoaVFuvwA4CmCew/edit?usp=sharing), a melee control class that uses superior mobility and crippling status effects to command the battlefield. These warriors understand grief and anger on a personal level and translate that understanding into deadly curses and reality-warping swordplay. Harbinger also has two archetypes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EsgZxSmnr9mwAeZRxHdxZSAS95QeUI0RWQ3F7nm4j38/edit?usp=sharing) available in beta. The Crimson Countess emphasizes the Claim mechanic to take her rage out on her victims, while the Ravenlord creates a shadowy servant that aids him in battle. A new archetype, the Bleak Emissary (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VwrqOihp5Nb_OVtMKpA2so2vL3bITx5hLZUSGQm2pUk/edit?usp=sharing), is available for beta testing. The Omen Rider (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iKpNQL2Ou5CA_i0h3p4hEN_xirU4n1ppbKNdsoPtisA/edit?usp=sharing) archetype, a mounted warrior archetype, is available for beta testing. Harbinger introduces two new disciplines: Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror

- The Zealot (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AbNq6NDkQ84JoacxMb-CxbQKwuXVWTEBpX2cIcNB7iA/edit), a psionic swordsman who leads his party into battle with the power of his passions and their own collective bond. These psionic initiators augment their maneuvers with power points and aid their party members with telepathy. Zealot introduces the Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess disciplines. Zealot archetypes may be found here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dt0LxHWmuPr0e9z5IlnYyf1bXweGONCnwTQDUCThFPU/edit?usp=sharing).

- The Mystic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AtQz8XFrmiBFJxjcatyiodJjo3FebF-WzFOh3XfEDtQ/edit?usp=sharing), a melee support class that uses unstable arcane energies to unleash beneficial magic on his allies and scourge his enemies with the power of the elements. Mystics are founts of energy that they vent through martial discipline and intuition rather than through spells. Mystic will introduce the Elemental Flux and Riven Hourglass disciplines. Mystic archetypes are found at the bottom of the document.

But wait, there's more!

- Dreamscarred Press is happy to announce Class Templates, archetypes that can be applied to more than one class. Class Templates represent ideas too broad for a single-class archetype, letting you create very different versions of the same somewhat broad idea. The three introduced in Path of War Expanded are the Bushi, Privateer, and Hussar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHsiSKoL2nR4oWgzPKQwXfqYENuNkDmBiX323SlTPfc/edit?usp=sharing), for all of your samurai, pirate, and mounted warrior needs. At the end of the document you'll find the Mithral Current discipline as well.

Discipline List! (in no particular order)

- The Eternal Guardian (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CiBEOAlfno9Ny6IOLQEKDjqyNdItkCdX2hSjJy1NV2E/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Sleeping Goddess (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_fnZ9YJTKdoF1IrU_5op5U8rm7pomONnt4y0p9ZeqLU/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Cursed Razor (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vupG0mfOE8yU3NwaddxfnRhZ4PiWsLz-ANVkQ8KJftA/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Shattered Mirror (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A5i_oxGQJUIhIolHf8IMQF9Q6BsuMtKOr6szdvJv5FY/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Mithral Current (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dKCPPIpRoR9CZv0A35gLDnXl5itgRufjWTq83BIsMfs/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Riven Hourglass (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rmHuI_JcLiDJ2_g0jyrP0lQ1a8wyXh-yL4-3njLpnZk/edit) discipline, available for open beta.

- The Elemental Flux discipline (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14BiQj1sEeeEH0Nbyiyf-o0Kg4N5uDM5XwwqeWOJ21dI/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Piercing Thunder (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcQQIp8ZPqmgMQjUWFvoI2qMFE0xdYFKcB0b30xmzFc/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Tempest Gale (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmEGGV-7j6ZGZqPXblPeY8cPzYtTweDtggVA0kqyAmM/edit?usp=sharing), a new ranged discipline, is now in beta!

Other Stuff!


Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing)

All the Feats for Path of War: Expanded! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit?usp=sharing)

Martial Tradition (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vX5QKzsOgPVoXqSuKdu_INbPz5x7OAL_qbH2aia14xk/edit)

- On the agenda: Favored class and racial abilities, traits, more feats, prestige classes, monster stuff, and more!

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It's been an amazing ride so far, and the support from the community for this project has been overwhelming and very touching. We couldn't have gotten this far without you guys, and I hope the Path of War line can continue to be an addition to your tables. With that said, I declare this thread to be officially open!

[ErrantX]

so lets say i have a level 18 mage, and at level 19 i take a level in one of the path of war classes and the diverse training feat, does that mean i could get high level maneuvers out of the gate? Even if i dont take the feat my initiator level would be 10 so i could take 1 level 2 maneuver and the rest level 5.

Technically yes, but there are some rules to that.

Higher level maneuvers have a minimum number of maneuvers known from that discipline, so you wouldn't just be able to pick all 5th level maneuvers from whatever discipline you wanted to. Your IL would 9 at 19th level (rounding down).

-X

[Powerdork]

Carrying feedback forward from last thread:

Re: zealot, the new Unhindered Thinking conviction doesn't specify any limitations on which of your allies gain bonuses to move speed. Members of your collective? Allies within 30/60 feet? Every dwarf ever?
Tempered Body only applies to critical hits and sneak attacks, and not other sources of precision damage?
Improved Path of Dedication is technically a different ability from Path of Dedication, so "You still may use this ability only once per round" does not refer to the base Path of Dedication ability the way it should.
Path of Dedication's bonus move action "must" be taken immediately, which means it can't not be taken. Advise adjusting.

I have just realized that using Strike of Unity I can lazylord with a zealot. I am so happy right now.

[jguy]

Posted this question at the very end of the last thread so I might as well move it over here

"I have a question. I swear there was a stance or a feat that said something along the lines of "All enemies within X ft took a -X penalty on attack rolls and saving throws, with a +1 to X every 5 initiator levels". Was a feat/stance edited from that to something else or did I somehow dream up a stance?"

[PsyBomb]

Marking this thread.

Also, I have a Crimson Countess and a Knight-Chandler in my group that I just started, so we will see how it works.

[CGNefarious]

Posted this question at the very end of the last thread so I might as well move it over here

"I have a question. I swear there was a stance or a feat that said something along the lines of "All enemies within X ft took a -X penalty on attack rolls and saving throws, with a +1 to X every 5 initiator levels". Was a feat/stance edited from that to something else or did I somehow dream up a stance?"

Sound similar to Aura of Misfortune, a first level Cursed Razor stance.

[Forrestfire]

Reposting so it doesn't get lost:


I also like the idea of a drawback for people who want to lose energy types, like, maybe...


Elemental Overspecialization
Prerequisite: Elemental Attunement class feature or access to the Elemental Flux discipline
Effect: Choose two elements available as active elements for the Elemental Flux discipline (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water). These two elements can never become your active element (although if a maneuver deals damage of their energy type, you can still use that maneuver as normal).

Or a feat like this:


Elemental Focus
Prerequisite: Elemental Attunement class feature or access to the Elemental Flux discipline
Effect: Choose one element available as an active elements for the Elemental Flux discipline. When this element is your active element, your attacks and abilities that deal damage of that element's energy type ignore up to your initiator level in energy resistance. In addition, when you reach level 10, creatures that are immune to that element's energy type take half damage instead of none from your attacks and abilities.


Or something. Might not need scaling at all, but I feel like a feat that lets you burn fire elementals is likely to spook people, so locking that ability to the level you'd be able to do that anyway through boosts seemed fair.

(The fact that I'm playing a Flux user who focuses on fire totally nothing to do with this I swear :smalltongue:)


EDIT: Unrelated, but I just discovered that this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-weapon-feint-combat) exists, so by spending your feats on this, Thrashing Dragon Style, and Thrashing Dragon Pounce on a Warlord, you can Feint Gambit using your TWF attack when using a strike. Even without it, Improved Feint means that you can burn move + swift to recover maneuvers. Warlord seems like it's probably the go-to for people who want to just spam the same thing over and over again.

[ErrantX]

Just as a blanket question out there but has anyone played a straight up vanilla Mystic for any amount of time? I've done my own testing but of course there is a level of bias in that I know how I think it should be played but you all have more than proven ways to do things beyond my imagination's wildest thoughts. Mostly looking for some general feedback on how the chassis of the class is working out and how glyphs have worked out for you.

-X

[jguy]

Sound similar to Aura of Misfortune, a first level Cursed Razor stance.

That is exactly what I was thinking of! Much appreciated. This helps with my debuff party build with antipaladins, Jester Bard, Cleric, an Enchanter Wizard

[ErrantX]

Elemental Focus
Prerequisite: Elemental Attunement class feature or access to the Elemental Flux discipline
Effect: Choose one element available as an active elements for the Elemental Flux discipline. When this element is your active element, your attacks and abilities that deal damage of that element's energy type ignore up to your initiator level in energy resistance. In addition, when you reach level 10, creatures that are immune to that element's energy type take half damage instead of none from your attacks and abilities.

I like this one. I'd do that one over a drawback personally.

-X

[Manly Man]

I like this one. I'd do that one over a drawback personally.

-X

+1. Honestly, the thought of burning a red dragon to death pleases me immensely.

[ErrantX]

+1. Honestly, the thought of burning a red dragon to death pleases me immensely.

Well Flux gets that anyway, but this lets you super specialize.

-X

[scorpioni]

I playtested a lvl7 mystic but TBH I focused on animus nova'ing elemental flux (with mixed results I must say). I never used animus on glyphs, mostly because I didn't have animus remaining after flux and because the concept of glyphs didn't gel with my concept.

This brings me to a concern. The mystic seems forced into either glyphs or flux. Perhaps there should be more ways to spend animus. Other disciplines, more animus feats,...? Perhaps an archetype more focused on burning animus to boost himself (replacing glyphs)?

[Doomeye56]

+1. Honestly, the thought of burning a red dragon to death pleases me immensely.

Bastard! Defeating a fire djinn with fire spells.

[Anlashok]

Bastard! Defeating a fire djinn with fire spells.

Yes please. Honestly the worst thing about DSP psionics was that Pyrokineticists could no longer burn fire elementals to death with Heat Death.

[ErrantX]

I playtested a lvl7 mystic but TBH I focused on animus nova'ing elemental flux (with mixed results I must say). I never used animus on glyphs, mostly because I didn't have animus remaining after flux and because the concept of glyphs didn't gel with my concept.

This brings me to a concern. The mystic seems forced into either glyphs or flux. Perhaps there should be more ways to spend animus. Other disciplines, more animus feats,...? Perhaps an archetype more focused on burning animus to boost himself (replacing glyphs)?

So as far as your mixed results, could you extrapolate on that? Were some abilities more effective than others? Less? Overall was it too strong or too weak?

More animus feats are definitely a thing I want to do. I always appreciate feedback or suggestions for what people would like to see with regards to animus feats, glyphs, gambits, and stalker arts. I'm putting together the systems and use chapter for this book and if I have the material ready, we'll see if I can fit in some more gambits and stalker arts.

-X

[Nyaa]

Is Mandala Adept being reworked? Can't find it anywhere.

[Doomeye56]

I think it's being converted to a prestige class?

[Anlashok]

I think it's being converted to a prestige class?

That would suck. The archetype was a little weak but it was a ton of fun to play.

[scorpioni]

I'm also in favor of keeping Mandala Adept as an archetype (or full alternate class) instead of a prestige class, but maybe the rework might be interesting. Let's see how it plays out.

Will elaborate more on my mystic playtest but I'm in session now :p

[Adslahnit]

Assuming you have a way to let your unarmed strikes deal piercing or slashing, can the Hone Weapon feat be used on them?

[Doomeye56]

Mid way through the last thread X asked people's opinions on what they thought in turning it into a prestige class instead of it being a bloated archetype. Almost all were in favor of that.

Edit: majority would probably be a better term then almost all

[Anlashok]

Mid way through the last thread X asked people's opinions on what they thought in turning it into a prestige class instead of it being a bloated archetype. Almost all were in favor of that.

Edit: majority would probably be a better term then almost all

That's a damn shame. Having a cha-mystic was great. I actually liked having the fully randomized variant and the mandalas are awesome.

Gonna have to dig through my cache to see if I can find the original and add in the missing pieces to let my players use it, because it'd be a big shame to let the archetype go to waste like that.

And hell, it's a bit bloated but Knight Chandler is nearly as long.

[ErrantX]

I'm also in favor of keeping Mandala Adept as an archetype (or full alternate class) instead of a prestige class, but maybe the rework might be interesting. Let's see how it plays out.

Will elaborate more on my mystic playtest but I'm in session now :p

cool, I look forward to hearing back :)


Assuming you have a way to let your unarmed strikes deal piercing or slashing, can the Hone Weapon feat be used on them?

Not without some kind of a brawling aid, like spiked gauntlets or something of that kind.


Mid way through the last thread X asked people's opinions on what they thought in turning it into a prestige class instead of it being a bloated archetype. Almost all were in favor of that.

Edit: majority would probably be a better term then almost all


That's a damn shame. Having a cha-mystic was great. I actually liked having the fully randomized variant and the mandalas are awesome.

Gonna have to dig through my cache to see if I can find the original and add in the missing pieces to let my players use it, because it'd be a big shame to let the archetype go to waste like that.

And hell, it's a bit bloated but Knight Chandler is nearly as long.


Mandala adept is on hold right now; being at a lengthy 6 pages I was told it was too long for an archetype. I'm thinking of how to rework it into a PrC that allows for anyone with animus to get access to it or as a Charisma-based Alt Class and add some more flavor to it as a whole new tradition of mystic.

-X

[Vhaidara]

Subbing. I will hopefully be using an aurora fist soon, and I plan on using glyphs as well as flux.

I support adept becoming a PRC and getting a less bloated cha archetype. Maybe pick up a bloodrager bloodling in place of glyphs, eldritch scion style?

[Taveena]

I like this one. I'd do that one over a drawback personally.

-X

It'd be pretty great to have a reason not to switch, to be honest? Sometimes you just... really want to play the lightning melee, not the master of all elements.

[Tempestfury]

The OP needs updating to include Omen Rider for the harbringer. Also, whilst we are discussing Stalker Arts, is the Vigilante ever going to get any unique stalker arts of its own? As it lost a significant amount of choices when it lost KI, and what it can actually take from the investigator is rather strongly limited as well.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Vigilante still hasn't gotten an updated recovery method. Have faith, Elric will come through for us.

[Adslahnit]

1. Is errata for Path of War 1 supposed to be lower priority than releasing the rest of Path of War Expanded? Can we expect it before that book is complete, or will it come only afterwards?

2. Is the Murderous Insight stalker art supposed to apply on all of the stalker's attacks for its duration?

[ErrantX]

Subbing. I will hopefully be using an aurora fist soon, and I plan on using glyphs as well as flux.

I support adept becoming a PRC and getting a less bloated cha archetype. Maybe pick up a bloodrager bloodling in place of glyphs, eldritch scion style?

Cool, I'd love to get your feedback on glyphs and how it interacts with your Flux use.

I'm definitely open on an additional Charisma based archetype. I'm trying to put together a Zealot archetype that may end up Wisdom based between other things. So many things! I was thinking of modifying something off of how wilder's wild surge works, or maybe the battle wilder.


It'd be pretty great to have a reason not to switch, to be honest? Sometimes you just... really want to play the lightning melee, not the master of all elements.

Damn straight. Sometimes you just want to freeze a guy solid, electrozap the heck out of someone, melt someone into slag, or burn them to ashes and you wanna do it better than anyone else.


The OP needs updating to include Omen Rider for the harbringer. Also, whilst we are discussing Stalker Arts, is the Vigilante ever going to get any unique stalker arts of its own? As it lost a significant amount of choices when it lost KI, and what it can actually take from the investigator is rather strongly limited as well.

If only I could get write access to Gareth's file for Harbinger archetypes.... I'll add it in shortly.

As far as other vigilante questions...


Vigilante still hasn't gotten an updated recovery method. Have faith, Elric will come through for us.

Right here.


1. Is errata for Path of War 1 supposed to be lower priority than releasing the rest of Path of War Expanded? Can we expect it before that book is complete, or will it come only afterwards?

2. Is the Murderous Insight stalker art supposed to apply on all of the stalker's attacks for its duration?

1. It's not really a matter of priority per se, its more of a matter of what we have time to do and when people are available. We all work day jobs, have other obligations too. We've got some people working through with us on adjusting Blade, Fury, and Serpent (the prime things that really need errata) and the other stuff will just fall together. Gareth and I have collected quite a bit of info. As far as when to expect it? I don't have a clear idea yet. The discipline errata comes first, and then the small rules tweaks, and we'll catch the grammar/spelling things in Ultimate (if we are able to give it a go).

2. Yes. They're literally sensing for weak points in your life force with ki-enhanced senses and limited precognition.

-X

[stack]

I am definitely behind a WIS zealot. WIS to attack is easier than CHA, especially when already psionic.

[Adslahnit]

Is the Martial Charge feat supposed to allow a full-round action strike at the end of a charge, or is it strictly limited to a standard action strike at the end of a charge?

[ErrantX]

Is the Martial Charge feat supposed to allow a full-round action strike at the end of a charge, or is it strictly limited to a standard action strike at the end of a charge?

Standard action strikes only at the end of a Martial Charge.

-X

[Adslahnit]

1. Is the Reckless Offense feat compatible with strikes? Reckless Offense's benefit is: "When you use the attack action or full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of –4 to your Armor Class and add a +2 bonus on your melee attack roll. The bonus on attack rolls and penalty to Armor Class last until the beginning of your next turn." Would a strike count as "the attack action" for this?

2. Were the warlord (Steelfist Commando) and the mystic (Aurora Fist) designed to use Broken Blade in conjunction with Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/brawling) armor?

If they were not designed with Brawling armor in mind, should Brawling Armor get to stay for these Broken Blade-using unarmed archetypes?

[Lord_Gareth]

1. Is the Reckless Offense feat compatible with strikes? Reckless Offense's benefit is: "When you use the attack action or full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of –4 to your Armor Class and add a +2 bonus on your melee attack roll. The bonus on attack rolls and penalty to Armor Class last until the beginning of your next turn." Would a strike count as "the attack action" for this?

By strict RAW, no, since "the attack action" is spending a Standard to make a single melee attack. Sorry T_T


2. Were the warlord (Steelfist Commando) and the mystic (Aurora Fist) designed to use Broken Blade in conjunction with Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/brawling) armor?

If they were not designed with Brawling armor in mind, should Brawling Armor get to stay for these Broken Blade-using unarmed archetypes?

They weren't, but I can't see it being a problem. Maneuvers mostly don't care about DR to begin with; penetrating it isn't a large enough upgrade to be worrisome.

[AGrinningCat]

Subbing to thread.

If we're talking feats, does the Measured Response (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/measured-response-combat) feat work on strikes or damage granting boosts?

[Taveena]

To be fair, their unarmed strikes would already penetrate DR/Magic with an Amulet of Mighty Fists, so.

[Rentaromon]

Technically yes, but there are some rules to that.

Higher level maneuvers have a minimum number of maneuvers known from that discipline, so you wouldn't just be able to pick all 5th level maneuvers from whatever discipline you wanted to. Your IL would 9 at 19th level (rounding down).

-X

So i could take diverse training at level 19 with 1 level in a art of war class to be a level 19 maneuver initiator?

[tekevil]

An item I wrote for the Liber Influxis expansion should be helpful for people who wanna use unarmed builds without being forced to sacrifice Neck Slot.

I can't actually post the rules text, but it works in a way most would consider ideal.

[Deadkitten]

Subbing to thread.

If we're talking feats, does the Measured Response (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/measured-response-combat) feat work on strikes or damage granting boosts?


Probably only meant to work on base weapon damage.

[meemaas]

So i could take diverse training at level 19 with 1 level in a art of war class to be a level 19 maneuver initiator?

In order to take the diverse training feat you must already be an initiator. Ergo, you take the level and gain the benefits of taking it before you can take the feat. Therefore you would learn your maneuvers as though IL9, and then when you took the feat you'd go to IL19, which would only be beneficial for future levels.

In other words, no. No 9th level maneuvers from a single level dip and a feat. If you want them you have to take at least two levels plus the feat, or spend more fears after getting diverse training.

[Rentaromon]

In order to take the diverse training feat you must already be an initiator. Ergo, you take the level and gain the benefits of taking it before you can take the feat. Therefore you would learn your maneuvers as though IL9, and then when you took the feat you'd go to IL19, which would only be beneficial for future levels.

In other words, no. No 9th level maneuvers from a single level dip and a feat. If you want them you have to take at least two levels plus the feat, or spend more fears after getting diverse training.

good, at least the 1 level dip is not that powerful

[ghanjrho]

I think they might be dumping diverse training. In the last round of discussion about it, they didn't really sound happy with the way it turned out.

On another note, glad to hear that Steel Serpent is going back in the shop to be retuned. Perhaps consider changing the abiity damage maneuvers to physical or mental? As it stands, there's no way to target INT at all, CHA has precisely 1 maneuver, and WIS and STR stop being worth it after the first handful of levels.

[Powerdork]

Probably only meant to work on base weapon damage.

The way I read Measured Response, there are two parts: What you can do (when you make a successful melee or ranged weapon attack [which a strike usually lets you do], you can choose to deal damage as if you had rolled the exact average of all the dice) and clarifications (you don't just use the dice, guys, you add things like Smite Evil or your Strength modifier, don't be silly).

The way you're reading it seems to be either "You must be making a normal attack [whatever that is; does a smite attack count?] to use this option" or "This only applies to the base weapon damage [which the ability doesn't say at all] and not bonuses like sneak attack damage".

[RedOndjage]

Reposting from previous thread:

Would the devs consider changing this:


Scarlet Throne Style [Combat, Style]
Your skill with a single blade allows you to strike with the same force as those much stronger than you.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Scarlet Throne stances, Sense Motive 3 ranks
Benefit: When wielding your weapon one handed with nothing in your off hand, you treat your weapon as being wielded in two hands for purposes of feats and abilities which would benefit from this change.

To this:

Scarlet Throne Style [Combat, Style]
Your skill with a single blade allows you to strike with the same force as those much stronger than you.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Scarlet Throne stances, Sense Motive 3 ranks
Benefit: When wielding your weapon one handed and not two-weapon fighting, you treat your weapon as being wielded in two hands for purposes of feats and abilities which would benefit from this change.

What this would do is allow more offensive sword and board types not to have to take TWF feats to do decent damage. Using it would also mean that they couldn't simultaneously use the Iron Tortoise Style feats without a dip in MoMS. Do you guys think this is a worthwhile change, or are you devs pretty set on this being specifically for free hand fighters?

[TheEmperor]

What level would a stance that gives half Initiator Modifier to attack, damage, and initiative and full initiator modifier to damage?

A player of mine believes it's at middle ground between level 1 and 3 stances
I'm thinking it's a bit more powerful

[Forrestfire]

Attack bonuses are worth more than damage bonuses, but overall, I'd say that's a level 3 stance. It's basically Battle Dragon's Stance, but instead of negating the -2 from TWF, it works while using one weapon (and, as such, when using Strikes). More applicable in exchange for sheer damage potential.

EDIT: I read it as half IM to attacks and init, and full IM to damage. Not 1.5 IM to damage.

[TheEmperor]

Ah, thanks. Said player wants to draft it up as a Mithral Current stance for level 3 (I believe)

[Nyaa]

I can't actually post the rules text
It's not compatible with Pathfinder and OGL?

[tekevil]

It's not compatible with Pathfinder and OGL?

Nah, NDA. Says I can't quote rules text from the book till it's released. If you're a fan of Liber Influxis then I can PM you some previews that I am allowed to state.

Basically the item allows you to enchant your unarmed strikes, and some other things from the book similarly to a weapon.

I suggested that Amulet of Many Fists really only made sense for character/monster with a lot of natural attacks, not a dude making a large number of attacks through BAB. Especially because classes like Monks could already just pick up a temple sword and flurry.

[Nyaa]

Glyphs class feature doesn't state in which order do multiple glyphs and runes activate.

I think there is a bug in Mystic's maneuvers known progression, after level 10 he learns new maneuver at every even level, while everyone else do so at odd levels.

I tried to build Aurora Fist, and it immediately raised a question. What is his intended combat style? It looks like the most efficient way is to take TWF and BB stance at level 5 and never ever leave it in combat, unless he can't reach his target, which is not very likely thanks to sorc step. So sorc step - full attack all day every day?
Is BB stance gonna be errata'd not to give two extra attacks?

[Vhaidara]

What level would a stance that gives half Initiator Modifier to attack, damage, and initiative and full initiator modifier to damage?

I'm mostly commenting because I think I know this person, the that raises concerns. Also, if it's one of our two, please refer them to me. I have a discussion to have with them.

[NineThePuma]

Everyone is kung fu writing. it's kinda hilarious.

[Vhaidara]

Question: Did Infinity Mirror Stance get changed before release? I'm in discussion with a fellow player and they're flipping a table over the infinite mirror image at level 5.

[Nyaa]

Question: Did Infinity Mirror Stance get changed before release? I'm in discussion with a fellow player and they're flipping a table over the infinite mirror image at level 5.
It eats active stance for purely defensive effect, and it's only one image at 5. Meanwhile wizard just got displacement.

[Sacrieur]

I am definitely behind a WIS zealot. WIS to attack is easier than CHA, especially when already psionic.

So your argument is that a Wis zealot would be easier for you to optimize so they should throw everything about the class to the wind and make it Wis?

[Powerdork]

Indeed, stack. It's just bad form. (Especially if you can't suggest a change to its identity which could justify that.)

[Desril]

It eats active stance for purely defensive effect, and it's only one image at 5. Meanwhile wizard just got displacement.

Which takes a standard action to cast, lasts 5 rounds, and can only be used like 4 times a day at most if the give up all offense and control.

Meanwhile, the stance is a swift action with infinite uses, and you give up...passive boons while retaining all the usual shenanigans.

[Vhaidara]

Guys, you are being unfair. He is saying that would be an advantage to the archetype, not the sole reason why it should exist. You are reading WAY more into what he said then is there.

[squiggit]

Indeed, stack. It's just bad form. (Especially if you can't suggest a change to its identity which could justify that.)

Did you guys not see the post last page with Errant floating the idea of a wisdom based zealot archetype he might make? Because that's what stack was replying to.

[Forrestfire]

Infinity mirror stance is a swift action, but only gives you 1/4 IL images, and the only way to respawn them is by taking two rounds of Swifts (one to switch to another stance, and one to switch back).

at level 5, it's effectively displacement against a single attack. You get more images later, but it's really not that problematic.

[stack]

Indeed, stack. It's just bad form. (Especially if you can't suggest a change to its identity which could justify that.)

Given what we have seen in the fluff of the other archetypes, I have no doubt in the team's ability to come up with something compelling.

[CGNefarious]

So your argument is that a Wis zealot would be easier for you to optimize so they should throw everything about the class to the wind and make it Wis?


Indeed, stack. It's just bad form. (Especially if you can't suggest a change to its identity which could justify that.)

I'm confused. Is this not Giant in the Playground? Of course we're going to look for ways to mechanically optimize the things presented to us. And as stated, DSP has shown they are more than effective at creating good, if not great, fluff for all their archetypes. I don't think anything he said was all that surprising, let alone out of line.

[TheIronGolem]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but the Harbinger's table still has "Accursed Will (attack rolls)" at level 7, even though that has been removed.

[PlatinumVixen]

I mean Chris literally just said he was considering a Wisdom Zealot Archetype. That is literally a thing that was just said. Given the Mandala Adept (pre-PrC-ing) was a Cha-based Mystic people are maybe getting weirdly worked up about the whole thing.

I'm warming up slightly to some of the changes to Harbinger from a DM perspective as I can now hit their will saves occasionally. Not much of a difference in the damage and attack department given the levels I've been DM'ing at.

[Vhaidara]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but the Harbinger's table still has "Accursed Will (attack rolls)" at level 7, even though that has been removed.

That doc won't be getting updated anymore. Harbinger has been released.

[Tempestfury]

So... is we get a Cha Mystic, and a Wis Zealot... what would the harbringer get? A physical ability score? Actually a Constitution focused Harbringer, focused on turning the pain and agony it feels during battle into a source of its power sounds awesome.

[Nyaa]

Honestly, both Harbinger and Mystic strike me as CHA type, and Zealot is coin flip between CHA and WIS.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I don't see a need to go looking for the classes to get initiation modifier changes. They'll get them if an archetype pops up that works better for it. That said, you're unlikely to see any physical ability score as an initiation modifier - I had a similar conversation with X over the Mage Hunter PrC in PoW1.

[Sacrieur]

Honestly, both Harbinger and Mystic strike me as CHA type, and Zealot is coin flip between CHA and WIS.

You're kidding, it's basically paladin for psionics with the caveat of also having some serious leadership abilities. That's Cha written all over it.



I'm confused. Is this not Giant in the Playground? Of course we're going to look for ways to mechanically optimize the things presented to us. And as stated, DSP has shown they are more than effective at creating good, if not great, fluff for all their archetypes. I don't think anything he said was all that surprising, let alone out of line.

I'm saying it's weak reason for the change. I could see how a Wis Zealot could work in an archetype, but if the only reason is "I can munchkin this easier," I mean c'mon, that's not a good reason.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I'm saying it's weak reason for the change. I could see how a Wis Zealot could work in an archetype, but if the only reason is "I can munchkin this easier," I mean c'mon, that's not a good reason.

Something something BADWRONGFUN.

[Elricaltovilla]

So for my first contribution to thread number 4 (seriously guys, it's been like 2 days and we're already on page 3) here's the new Mithral Current 9th I'm thinking of using:

Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 5 ft. step that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, you can instead make a counterattack against each enemy within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft. per 2 levels).

Please break this thing to pieces.

[Kaidinah]

I like stat replacing archetypes, but only if they have a good reason to support it.
Example: Vigilante. Stalker was a good chassis to build an investigating/vigilante/stealth dude, but Wisdom just wasn't working out for their characterization. So they jumped to intelligence, which is usually a weaker mental stat.

If an archetype just exists to swap a stat, that would be kind of lame. That said, I would really want a charisma based Mystic. I would not want said charisma mystic if it was just a "here is mystic, but charisma based! Yay!"

Also, archetype feel like they would be more balanced. They allow the changing of class features so that if an archetype would bring a character from a stronger stat to a weaker one (Charisma to Wisdom), there would be a proper drawback as well.

A feat that changes which stat does what for a class could create unintentional strength.

[Nyaa]

Please break this thing to pieces.

Only one counterattack against each attacker?

[Sacrieur]

I like stat replacing archetypes, but only if they have a good reason to support it.
Example: Vigilante. Stalker was a good chassis to build an investigating/vigilante/stealth dude, but Wisdom just wasn't working out for their characterization. So they jumped to intelligence, which is usually a weaker mental stat.

If an archetype just exists to swap a stat, that would be kind of lame. That said, I would really want a charisma based Mystic. I would not want said charisma mystic if it was just a "here is mystic, but charisma based! Yay!"

Also, archetype feel like they would be more balanced. They allow the changing of class features so that if an archetype would bring a character from a stronger stat to a weaker one (Charisma to Wisdom), there would be a proper drawback as well.

A feat that changes which stat does what for a class could create unintentional strength.

Tell me about it, you can already really start to break stuff with Magus (Kensai) X / Warder (Dervish Defender) 1 / Stalker (Vigilante) 1 and apply the Diverse Training feat to Stalker/Kensai and tack in the Scarlet Throne Style feat for an Int based Fighter.

[Elricaltovilla]

Only one counterattack against each attacker?

One counterattack per attacker. Is that more clear? I guess I don't know what you're asking.

[Fenryr]

Only one counterattack against each attacker?

I agree. It should be somethin' like "one counterattack per attack". Right now I understand this: if enemy A attacked 3 times and enemy B attacked 4 times I only get one against A and one against B.

Why not make it like Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit? (feats from 3.5) Every time an enemy attacks you respond immediatly.

[Elricaltovilla]

I agree. It should be somethin' like "one counterattack per attack". Right now I understand this: if enemy A attacked 3 times and enemy B attacked 4 times I only get one against A and one against B.

Why not make it like Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit? (feats from 3.5) Every time an enemy attacks you respond immediatly.

Because Karmic strike is sort of already a part of the 8th level Mithral Current Stance. You can make counterattacks against anyone that makes an AoO against you, and you get a hefty damage bonus for counterattacks that you make.

[Doomeye56]

I agree. It should be somethin' like "one counterattack per attack". Right now I understand this: if enemy A attacked 3 times and enemy B attacked 4 times I only get one against A and one against B.

Why not make it like Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit? (feats from 3.5) Every time an enemy attacks you respond immediatly.

Counterattack per attack is kinda made moot if you take a 5 foot step away from them after they miss the first attack

[Elricaltovilla]

Part of the reason I'm limiting it to per creature instead of per attack is because I want to reduce the number of rolls a player has to make. Now, I love rolling buckets of dice as much as the next guy, but I don't want to unduly slow down the game too much. I could see something like a damage bonus if you're attacked multiple times though, like "your counterattack deals +1d6 damage for each attack after the first that the creature makes against you."

[Kaidinah]

Part of the reason I'm limiting it to per creature instead of per attack is because I want to reduce the number of rolls a player has to make. Now, I love rolling buckets of dice as much as the next guy, but I don't want to unduly slow down the game too much. I could see something like a damage bonus if you're attacked multiple times though, like "your counterattack deals +1d6 damage for each attack after the first that the creature makes against you."I actually really like this counter. It's pretty strong since it lasts the whole round, and can make you basically unable to be hit for a round. That kind of defense is worth 9th level maneuver.

[MilleniaAntares]

I feel like that counter would make more sense if it let you counterattack immediately after making the enemy miss, unless you're supposed to ignore range limitations on your weapons if you don't draw your weapon as part of the counter.

[Elricaltovilla]

I feel like that counter would make more sense if it let you counterattack immediately after making the enemy miss, unless you're supposed to ignore range limitations on your weapons if you don't draw your weapon as part of the counter.

You're supposed to ignore range limitations whether you draw it or not. Drawing it allows you to attack everyone within close range, whether they attacked you or not. I'll work on the wording a bit.

[TheIronGolem]

That doc won't be getting updated anymore. Harbinger has been released.

I know; I'm talking about the release PDF.

[Tempestfury]

So for my first contribution to thread number 4 (seriously guys, it's been like 2 days and we're already on page 3) here's the new Mithral Current 9th I'm thinking of using:

Hohoho, ho-ly sh*t! That is one HELL of a counter, and I love it! Admittedly at that level, the main threat would likely be against your saves than AC, but damn if it is not impressive. Being able to dodge and negate pretty much every single attack made against you is awesome, and then making a counter-attack against them is entirely awesome! Its anime-like in imagery. Someone just walking through a crowd, every attack against them seemingly missing for some reason, and then they stop, say an awesome one liner, and everyone falls down dead! Especially as you can activate it at the start of your turn, and use your move action to walk past people and provoke attacks.

That being said... considering you ARE at level 17, and you'll likely have the Mithral Lightning Stance as well. Making your weapon count as silver, isn't actually all that exciting or powerful. Plus, the others are right, it is a little sad you don't get any bonuses against the dudes whose attacks you dodged several times in a round. So, I suggest that everyone instead gains vulnerability to silver during the counter attack, and you deal an extra +2d6 damage for each attack after the first which you dodged from a single target.

[meemaas]

I know; I'm talking about the release PDF.

They are aware of it. It was mentioned in the very beginning right after it released by like half a dozen people.

[AGrinningCat]

So for my first contribution to thread number 4 (seriously guys, it's been like 2 days and we're already on page 3) here's the new Mithral Current 9th I'm thinking of using:

Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 5 ft. step that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, you can instead make a counterattack against each enemy within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft. per 2 levels).

Please break this thing to pieces.

Could allies attack you while this counter is active and intentionally fail their attack?

[Tempestfury]

Could allies attack you while this counter is active and intentionally fail their attack?

... Why would you want to do that?

[AGrinningCat]

... Why would you want to do that?

Cause I misread it. I was thinking that if you took 10 attacks while the counter was active, and you drew your weapon as a part of the attack, you'd attack each enemy within close range 10 times. Either way, an ally could 'trigger' your counter so that you can hit everyone in close range, even if they don't attack it. I wonder if you get enough Mithril current users together if you could just run together as a pack and counter off of the counter to make all your attacks AoE.
That being said, just 'weapon damage'+Silver isn't really floating my boat for a 9th level ability.

[squiggit]

I like the counter. Though I'm worried about how backloaded it is. It requires a bunch of enemies to try to hit you to really be terrifying and its draw bonus isn't the most exciting thing.

Gotta admit I'm gonna sort of miss the old ninth, because it was sort of this ultimate iaijutsu attack which felt fitting for an iaijutsu discipline too.

[Vhaidara]

So, I think I have capture the essence of each initiator class in a phrase
Stalker: I know 4 dozen ways to kill you, with my bare hands. And that's without going below the shoulders.
Warder: Get behind me!
Warlord: Hey guys! Watch this!
Harbinger: I will make you wish you were dead.
Zealot: We stand as one!
Mystic: I AM magic.
Pharaoh: BOW BEFORE ME!

[Taveena]

This might be an odd suggestion, but could it apply to Reflex saves as well? I'm not sure it'd add much, but the fluff is rather suited.

[Elricaltovilla]

So, I think I have capture the essence of each initiator class in a phrase
Stalker: I know 4 dozen ways to kill you, with my bare hands. And that's without going below the shoulders.
Warder: Get behind me!
Warlord: Hey guys! Watch this!
Harbinger: I will make you wish you were dead.
Zealot: We stand as one!
Mystic: I AM magic.
Pharaoh: BOW BEFORE ME!

Not enough moping in the harbinger sentence. :smalltongue:

EDIT: I now want to play a redneck warlord who's catchphrase is "Hold My Beer."

[AGrinningCat]

Mithril Current is about speed, right? What if the 9th level was a free action?

[Taveena]

Then it would only be usable on your turn.

[AGrinningCat]

Then it would only be usable on your turn.

With the same clause as talking. A no-action

[Elricaltovilla]

Mithril Current is about speed, right? What if the 9th level was a free action?

No. No way, definitely not. With the original Mithral Current 9th, the ability to tack on a free full attack action against a single creature with a massive damage bonus would be way too much. The new one, it wouldn't make much difference other than messing with the established conventions of the maneuver system and potentially opening up a can of worms if Paizo put out a FAQ that said free actions can only be taken on your turn. There are rules for immediate actions that are unlikely to change, and I think it would be best to stick with something solid like that.

[Taveena]

SO HERE'S AN ODD THING TO ARGUE FOR

But I feel like Mithral Current's maneuvers with Close range should STILL be extraordinary abilities, partly because I firmly agree with 3.5e's stance that 'you can have abilities that aren't physically possible, but are still not magical', because there's a satisfying imagery in being able to draw your sword and have the slice extend beyond your actual reach, because some people MIGHT fluff it as a sword beam, but others might just view it as being extremely good at swordsmanship. Because ultimately that SHOULD be an option for a Badass Normal to not ping on the magic-dar.

I'm absolutely fine with fluffing someone to be so good at swordplay that they slice through a wall fifty feet away, but it's harder to do that when it's shut off in a magic field, and... well, when the fluff is iaijutsu, where does the magic come into it?

[Elricaltovilla]

SO HERE'S AN ODD THING TO ARGUE FOR

But I feel like Mithral Current's maneuvers with Close range should STILL be extraordinary abilities, partly because I firmly agree with 3.5e's stance that 'you can have abilities that aren't physically possible, but are still not magical', because there's a satisfying imagery in being able to draw your sword and have the slice extend beyond your actual reach, because some people MIGHT fluff it as a sword beam, but others might just view it as being extremely good at swordsmanship. Because ultimately that SHOULD be an option for a Badass Normal to not ping on the magic-dar.

I'm absolutely fine with fluffing someone to be so good at swordplay that they slice through a wall fifty feet away, but it's harder to do that when it's shut off in a magic field, and... well, when the fluff is iaijutsu, where does the magic come into it?

It's worth considering. I'll bring it up with the crew.

[Milo v3]

I also think it should be Extraordinary rather than Supernatural.

[Forrestfire]

I agree there as well.

[Taveena]

This would also likely make it a valid choice for the Myrmidon Fighter. Who I feel should be capable of being a Samurai without the trait.

[ghanjrho]

Not enough moping in the harbinger sentence. :smalltongue:

EDIT: I now want to play a redneck Caydenite warlord who's catchphrase is "Hold My Beer."

Sir, you doth inspire me. And it is now my permanent headcanon that Cayden Cailen was a DEX Warlord focused on Golden Lion and Scarlet Throne.

[Tempestfury]

Hmmmm... I hope my feedback on the current counter was noticed.

As it is, turning the Waves to EX instead of SU is something I support.

[Kaidinah]

I was looking through the Zealot earlier today and I noticed the new convictions Nova made aren't in it. Any word on if they might make it to the Zealot PDF?

[Vhaidara]

Sir, you doth inspire me. And it is now my permanent headcanon that Cayden Cailen was a DEX Warlord focused on Golden Lion and Scarlet Throne.

Honestly, that's where I put him. I mean, him becoming a god was like, the best gambit ever.

...Guys, can we get an Epic feat called Starstone Gambit?

[Ilorin Lorati]

What is this eeeehhh-peeeeeeeeeeeeek you speak of?

[Milo v3]

What is this eeeehhh-peeeeeeeeeeeeek you speak of?
Page 406 of the Core Rule Book :smalltongue:

[Nyaa]

Have you guys considered God of the Hourglass Stance interaction with recovery methods? I can't see anything preventing level 15 Riven Hourglass adept from using full-round recovery every round, initiating Beat the Clock, then two standard action maneuvers, repeating it every round. Is it considered acceptable power level for 15th level character?

[ErrantX]

Have you guys considered God of the Hourglass Stance interaction with recovery methods? I can't see anything preventing level 15 Riven Hourglass adept from using full-round recovery every round, initiating Beat the Clock, then two standard action maneuvers, repeating it every round. Is it considered acceptable power level for 15th level character?

This is the first anyone's mentioned this interaction to me. I'll look into it.

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

So, Chris asked this before but we didn't really get much feedback on it: what are the thoughts on base Mystic? Specifically, what're the thoughts on Glyphs? Are they worth using? Cool? Thematic? Hard to understand?

We're really trying to get Mystic's identity nailed down and right now it kinda seems like folks don't like Glyphs. And if that's the case, we'd love to know why so we can get them fixed up! And if it's not, well, we'd like to know that too.

Thank'ee for the time and consideration, folks.

[Tempestfury]

... If I'm brutally honest. If I'm going to play as Mystic, I'll likely play a Knight-Chandler, because the glyphs come across as needlessly complicated and a bit bewildering for me. You already have Animus and your martial maneuvers, adding on this other little sub-system is just all that bit to much and makes the Mystic rather complicated compared to the other classes.

[Vhaidara]

Don't know if I'll be able to get you info in time, but I am going to be using a lot of mystic NPCs coming up in my game (2 weeks minimum, sadly). Hopefully it will be helpful.

Without play experience, I really have no opinion on them. I don't hate them, but they don't excite me either. I can't see myself building a character around glyphs, but they are a decent supporting feature. Also, I think they have a very good place as archetype fodder (like bravery on fighter. But not totally useless)

[Kaidinah]

For me, it feels like the Mystic has a lot of subsystems. Animus and Initiating are very cool together, but adding glyphs to the mix sometimes feels like it is a bit much.

Edit: Though I did like the Mandala adept for reducing the amount of choices. Even with less versatility, it reduced option paralysis.

[Taveena]

... Yeah. Glyphs feel a little messy and hard to actually work with, I'm sad to say. The Animus system is neat, but Glyphs themselves complicate the class and - while they might certainly add a degree of power to it - end up forcing everyone to play two somewhat in-depth subsystems at once. Which is fine optionally, but... I'm a little uneasy about it being a core feature of the class?

More to the point they don't seem that... INTERESTING, I'm sorry to say. They're minor effects with no... really fun fluff that don't entirely suit the concept of a class. Runes and Sigils are potentially a really cool idea, but the UNTAMED MAGIC class doesn't seem like the right place for them?

[Anlashok]

Glyphs are conceptually cool, but end up being a lot of moving parts that don't feel all that gratifying. I'd almost say cut down on the total number of glyphs and expand their power to make them more meaningful.

But I'd say that goes to the Mystic in general. It's a nifty class with conceptually cool parts, but it doesn't feel as thematic or cohesive as the other initiators. The warder is a big, badass guardian. The harbinger is a fast agent of fear and weakness and terror. The stalker is a roguish hunter. The zealot is a psionic commander and leader.

The mystic is.... magical? Except that doesn't stand out very much either because all three of the PoW:E classes are magical. It just feels like the Mystic has a lot of cool ideas that don't come together all the way.

Glyphs. Sorcerous Step. Crafting. Heck even the Wisdom based initiating all just feel like things that were cool that got thrown together.

I think this is in part because the class leans more heavily on Flux than most of the other class' do on their signature. Elemental Flux feels more like a Mystic class feature than a discipline the mystics happen to have. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing though.

Incidentally, I really liked the way Mandala Adept did glyphs.

[Adslahnit]

A contact of mine has this to say about the mystic's glyphs:

Having followed Path of War for a very long time, I'd like to weigh in on the pros and cons of the Glyph system. Most people haven't done a lot of work on it, but I see it as the crux of the class (in contrast with a mostly ignorable, though not weak special discipline in Elemental Flux, and a variety of class abilities you either don't really care to use or actively will take Counters that reduce the importance of).

The first thing to understand is that Glyphs are basically a bonus action. Anybody who knows anything about game design will instantly understand that it's a five star feature power wise just off that, but it's worth elaborating on. You get 20+ glyphs over the course of your career and all of them (*all of them*) are maneuver-tier powerful. Some of them are MORE powerful than maneuvers, even. They're so good they offer a good incentive to start the game as a Deadly Fist Warsoul Soulknife so you can mainline WIS and get truly massive save DCs for the ones that offer them. You can active a glyph while striking, or in place of a boost. Combine with the above and this basically means the Mystic gets a bonus Boost a round, OR he gets to sub in a new boost in place of his readied maneuvers. And he gets twenty of them. It's the only class that has what is in practice 40+ maneuvers, and 20+ readied at all times.

This has the unfortunate side effect of making a 'full power' mystic extremely overwhelming to play. Game design is both art and science, but it has rules, and a noted rule that's been well-covered by psychology is that the vast majority of people can only 'hold' five to seven distinct choices in their mind before getting analysis paralysis. Quintupling the number of choices at their disposal will cause them to shut down and play extremely suboptimally. I'd argue the Mystic is probably the strongest PoW class once one learns to work around its extremely limited recovery mechanic (it's no Warlord on that front, which is why Victorious Recovery becomes very important for it, along with the needed optimization to OTK a target as needed to regain anti-death counters and stash them away for a rainy day), but it's also by far the most micromanagement intensive. You have to fail-proof your build against getting the wrong maneuvers after your initial two or three chosen ones, you have to select your boosts with Glyphs in mind, you have to change your item purchases (that glyph that gives you 50% concealment, for example? Yeah, that changes your build. It changes it a LOT. The value of effectively doubling your hitpoints and getting to give touch attacks the finger is enormous), and on top of that you have to be mindful of a lot of moving parts in play.

If it's intended that the Mystic be the 'high skill high reward' PoW class, then Glyphs are a resounding success, because they make it immensely versatile and powerful at the cost of having a pretty much vertical learning curve. If it's meant to be similar in complexity to the other classes, it's a resounding failure and they need to be simplified to an astonishing degree. I leave it up to the PoW designers to decide where they want the Mystic to go, but I will note that if the versatility of glyphs is removed, the Mystic should probably get full BAB to compensate. Needing item taxes to hit its peak is something that checks its balance a bit, preventing it from taking off like a rocket and never having a point where it's worse than the best or second best PoWer. Without that massive source of extra power, the check of slowed down feat access isn't really needed, I don't think.

Further, extra Glyph suggestions:

-If the Mystic is meant to be a buffer, the action economy on ally side needs help. Burning two swifts for a damage bonus or heal is a very, very difficult trade to make. The buff needs to be enormously powerful (see: 50% concealment) to be worth it. And 'get hit, trigger buff' is a sucker's bet. A player who waits to get a needed benefit until after it would have helped him made a bad move. Something like an 'Animus Blaze' feat that allowed the Mystic to free-action trigger Sigils for his allies at a cost of 1, 2, or 3 Animus depending on the tier would be welcome.
-If the mystic is meant to be a debuffer...it's mostly in a good place, actually. It's a bit surprising that a tier 1 Rune is pretty much straight up king of the hill though (talking about the Blindness rune, which is super powerful in a lot of cases and makes things like the Wraithstrike rune look bad because of the really strong control it offers). I don't suggest nerfing, because it's nice to have powerful options from the get-go, just making a note of this.
-Mystic has very high damage. Bonus feats plus multi-benefit stances (whatup, Elemental Flux Stance, AKA 'best generic stance'), plus Glyphs allow it to retain a high damage value throughout an entire fight. If this is unintended, put a clause down saying Mystic cannot self-target nor self-trigger his Glyphs, because right now using them for your own selfish benefit is intensely powerful.
-Not directly glyph related, but for the love of god, rewrite the Readied Maneuvers section. It's a complete mess and does NOT clarify that you get to pick two of your maneuvers on every reshuffle, first one included, in the slightest way. This is a HUGE, game-changing thing and should not be obscured beneath bad wording. Nobody should have to read Extra Granted Maneuver, hunt down Mandala Adept through the wayback machine and then ask a question to the PoW GitP thread directly to the devs to make sure it works that way.

[RedOndjage]

So, here's a question: What happens when I use a Tempest Fury or Riven Hourglass maneuver with a blunderbuss loading buck shot? Does everyone in the cone get hit with the maneuver? How do boosts interact with the cone effect?

[Doomeye56]

So, here's a question: What happens when I use a Tempest Fury or Riven Hourglass maneuver with a blunderbuss loading buck shot? Does everyone in the cone get hit with the maneuver? How do boosts interact with the cone effect?

This was answered, I can't recall exactly but it's either only on target in the spread gets his by the maneuver or maneuvers can't be used with spread shots. I believe it's the former.

[deuxhero]

This would also likely make it a valid choice for the Myrmidon Fighter. Who I feel should be capable of being a Samurai without the trait.

Solar Wind is already an option and shares the "most Ex but some Su"

[Milo v3]

My opinion is that glyphs add a giant amount of complexity to the mystic, when the mystic is already the most complicated class in the game without it. They also don't seem to fit with the flavour of the class, I think it was stated that they are a major aspect of the classes "buffing/debuffing" nature, but it seems like it is the only class feature that has anything to do with buffing/debuffing.

The mystic character I made literally never used glyphs, simply because I didn't have time to manage three systems for one half of a gestalt character and track all the different glyphs on the enemies at once.

[PlatinumVixen]

I'm for cutting the Glyphs. It's a really cool concept, but it feels more like something that needs to be expanded into it's own class later instead of as part of the Mystic (where it doesn't fit the fluff all that well).

Now granted, I love mechanically complex classes and if the Mystic wasn't part of PoW:E I might be fine with it, but it seems a bit too complex compared to the rest of this project.

Basically what I'm saying is I like the Glyphs concept, please don't forget about them, but also maybe just don't make them part of the Mystic.

[Anlashok]

I'm for cutting the Glyphs. It's a really cool concept, but it feels more like something that needs to be expanded into it's own class later instead of as part of the Mystic (where it doesn't fit the fluff all that well).

Isn't that sort of telling in and of itself when one of a class' core mechanics doesn't actually feel like it fits in that class?

[stack]

I really like the base mystic, but I have not actually gotten to put in play time, only build time. Cutting glyphs would axe the entire buffing/debuffing aspect too much. I would rather see them focused and expanded on, even if it meant reducing maneuvers known/readied. PoW has enough hitters, doing something else is needed.

[Ironsides]

I do agree that they add a large level of complexity to the class. I would like to see the number of glyphs granted to you get reduced by half or a third, after you choose the best 5 basic glyphs (Evasive Armor, Shadowmeld, Flowing Blade, Stunning Peal, Ghost Armor) the rest are very under par and just add more bookkeeping (getting a random maneuver every turn does not help with my low multitasking abilities). I have not had a chance to play with Advanced or Master glyphs but most of the basic glyphs seem a little too niche to be used most games and I usually forget I have them when they would be useful (too many notecards with abilities on them). However, after I got used to them I did use Shadowmeld and Stunning Peal fairly frequently on my Gunsmoke Mystic and they helped me stay alive.


I really like the base mystic, but I have not actually gotten to put in play time, only build time. Cutting glyphs would axe the entire buffing/debuffing aspect too much. I would rather see them focused and expanded on, even if it meant reducing maneuvers known/readied. PoW has enough hitters, doing something else is needed.

I disagree. The glyphs are the issue with the class not the maneuvers. The glyphs are too niche and are too numerous. After you get the best five glyphs you still get more of them and the quality of them drops fairly quickly. I would raise the quality of them and reduce their number granted each level.

[squiggit]

I love glyphs and talking about removing glyphs feels like talking about removing gambits. They definitely need a balancing pass though.

[Forrestfire]

I'm in the camp that doesn't really like Glyphs. I'm sure they're a very neat subsystem for people who do like them, but I feel like they shift the focus of the class too much to its class features. In my opinion, the maneuvers should be the star of an initiator class, and having a whole secondary subsystem that takes the same action space as many useful maneuvers takes the spotlight away from it.

The Mystic's other class features are neat, but overall, I am unlikely to play a Mystic (beyond a one-level dip for an animus pool that doesn't suck) that hasn't archetyped away Glyphs entirely. It's just not what I'm looking for in an initiator, and Elemental Flux is its only real draw for me.

[NineThePuma]

I like Base Mystic on paper!

I haven't seen it in play, and personally am not likely to.

Glyphs are super duper cool and really freaking awesome, but... probably not the best on an already complicated class?

[Anlashok]

In my opinion, the maneuvers should be the star of an initiator class, and having a whole secondary subsystem that takes the same action space as many useful maneuvers takes the spotlight away from it.

Funny, to me it feels like the Mystic's problem is the opposite. It's too much "Elemental Flux: The Class" and lacks a real identity of its own.

Like I honestly couldn't tell you what the Mystic does in a nutshell in terms of class features.

Maybe removing glyphs would give DSP a chance to make the other class features more synergistic though.

[stack]

I do agree that a glyph every level is more than enough to grab all the best ones and feel like you are just filling in. Maybe grant them on even levels so they come opposite new maneuver levels?

[Adslahnit]

Given all of the playtest disciplines available, what would be the best way to build a warder who can reliably lock down multiple spellcaster-types in their threatened area?

I imagine that the Mage Slayer prestige class would help for gaining the Disruptive feat, but adding 4 to the DC of concentration checks alone does not seem as though it would help.

I am looking for something that can lock down not just one, but several enemies looking to use spells or spell-like abilities, and also account for any enemies that might try to close in for melee attacks.

This is the party role that others in my group want me to have, so any help with such a build would be appreciated.

[deuxhero]

How about giving Ambush Hunters who select " Faithful" as a fighting style Silver Crane/Black Seraph (per standard deity alignment choices used by Channel Energy ect. Good character or character with good deity gets Silver Crane, evil character or character with evil deity gets Black Seraph, neutral of neutral chooses one)?

[Elricaltovilla]

How about giving Ambush Hunters who select " Faithful" as a fighting style Silver Crane/Black Seraph (per standard deity alignment choices used by Channel Energy ect. Good character or character with good deity gets Silver Crane, evil character or character with evil deity gets Black Seraph, neutral of neutral chooses one)?

Or you could just trait/tradition into it. Making a brand new fighting style for rangers just to have silver crane/black seraph is not something I think is appropriate.

[Sayt]

Or you could just trait/tradition into it. Making a brand new fighting style for rangers just to have silver crane/black seraph is not something I think is appropriate.

Actually, inner sea combat added in a bunch of ranger combat styles based on the worship of the main Golarion Gods.

[deuxhero]

That's what I was refering to. Archives of Nethys has them (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/RangerCombatStyles.aspx). They're from a campaign setting book and not a mainline one though.

[scorpioni]

I'm having the same feeling about glyphs. The "pure magic" aspect of the mystic drew me to the class, but since I wanted to play a "selfish" character instead of a party buffer/support I disregarded the glyphs. If you do that you have basically no choice but to use Flux (or don't have ways to spend animus) This ties in with the Elemental Flux: the Class comment above. For me being forced to take Flux wasn't a problem because I wanted to try it but I can see it being different for other players (or future characters). Note that the Mystic itself with its random mechanic was fun as hell to play!

My results with Flux themselves were mostly negative but I'll have to compare Flux maneuvers to others disciplines to see if it's a balancing issue (UP compared to other disciplines when NOT using animus) or just plain bad luck (energy resistance in my case).

Suggestions:
- Remove the glyphs but implement them in an archetype? Or have an archetype that only replaces glyphs? This way people can choose to use glyphs or not with minimal impact on the rest of their build.
- Have more uses for animus? New feats and/or class features? Perhaps a way to channel animus into pure magical effects instead of maneuvers, like some of the mandala abilities? Or perhaps someting like the arcane boost ability from the 3.5 abjurant champion prestige class but working with animus instead?
- Decouple animus boosting from Flux? Have general maneuver boosting built in the mystic instead of Flux so you're not forced taking Flux and can use one of your main class features with every discipline?

[Callin]

Please dont remove the glyphs! Thats the biggest draw to the class for me. I wanted to play a support melee buff/debuffer in my new game. I do feel like the class is pigeonholed into Elemental Flux though. Both use animus so you cant pump it into maneuvers to max em and you cant spam glyphs. I find this to be a feature and not a bug.

The class does have bookeeping to do. At round 1 you gotta gain maneuvers and gain your animus. Then every round after that decide whether to use a glyph or spend animus on a Flux Strike, gain a new maneuver, gain new animus, subtract 1 round from ongoing glyphs, plus misc other stuff. Its not a starter class.

I love the base Mystic and honestly dont care for the Archtypes. I do feel it could be streamlined a bit more. Its a support class to me. For me that puts it in the same category as a Bard. Sure you can ditch the support aspect and build a powerhouse, but you lose something in the process. If you wanted to make a more Flux focused Archtype to cover that aspect that gets reduced glyphs I am all for that.

[AGrinningCat]

So, Chris asked this before but we didn't really get much feedback on it: what are the thoughts on base Mystic? Specifically, what're the thoughts on Glyphs? Are they worth using? Cool? Thematic? Hard to understand?

We're really trying to get Mystic's identity nailed down and right now it kinda seems like folks don't like Glyphs. And if that's the case, we'd love to know why so we can get them fixed up! And if it's not, well, we'd like to know that too.

Thank'ee for the time and consideration, folks.

I like Mystic recovery as it stands -- Being able to pull out what you need or things you won't need immediately fixes 90% of the problems I had with it.

Glyphs are hit and miss for me. Some I like due to the uniqueness (Slow Burn), some I feel are kinda dull, even if useful (Burning Weapon). Mechanically as a whole, it works well since your Swift-action consumption is baked into your class; so you don't have to worry about not having boosts and freely slot as many strikes as you want. However, it is pretty 'Active', especially compared to the other classes, and the maneuver system is already pretty active.

I don't like how if I trait/tradition/feat into Elemental Flux, I have to take a feat(That doesn't do anything on it's own) to gain access to everything Elemental Flux has to offer.

If the Mystic is an arcane class, what if the Glyphs 'enchanted' your maneuvers instead of the grab bag they are now? This would standardize what the glyphs do (No more Runes or Sigils, just Glyphs). You could have 'Glyph of Fire' 'Glyph of Ice' 'Glyph of the One-Thousand-and-One-Black Dragons Rising' that passively add Animus augments to any maneuver you initiate, even if it's out of Elemental Flux. If you keep them in a control/support state, a Mystic could initate maneuvers as a striker, and fill it's support/control role simultaneously through it's Animus. A quick few wording examples:

• Glyph of Chilling Strikes: Whenever you make an attack or a strike, you may spend a point of Animus to have all enemies struck by the attack make a Fort save (DC blah) or reduce their move speed to 5ft for 1 round.
• Glyph of Backblast: Whenever you make an attack or a strike, you may spend a point of Animus to move away from your target 5ft. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
• Glyph of the Dancing Slyph: Whenever you initiate a counter, you may spend a point of Animus to gain 20% concealment for 1 round.
• Glyph of Warmth: Whenever you initiate a boost, you may spend a point of animus to heal yourself an amount equal to your class level.

Since you can only Augment a maneuver once, this sort of limits you (especially if you're Elemental Flux specialized), and the Glyphs are 'Passive, self only', this hurts the Mystic by forcing them to choose between their Glyphs (Do I control or support, or maybe augment Elemental Flux?) and you lose the capability to buff allies. A neat fix to this: Allow the Mystic to 'Enchant' other players, handing your Glyphs to them. Due to this, you now have better action economy through your allies using the Glyphs that you granted them -- If you grant an Ally Chilling Strikes and Backblast, they can choose what they feel is the best option for them at the time. However -- Since you need to spend a point of Animus, and your allies don't have any, the fix for THAT would be to allow the Mystic to grant a small, non-refreshing pool of Animus to them. So you can hand out Glyphs and, say, 3-5 or so points of Animus out to your allies to have them use it at their discretion.

Things get weird when you hand stuff out to non-initators, but you know, handing out a 1 shot maneuver to a player in a form of a "Scroll" (Rune name could be reused here?) would make everyone your best friend. Balancing factors could be 'unlearning' or 'inability to recover' while it's lended out. This way your party Soul Knife can initiate maneuvers with your 'Scroll' and have it 'Enchanted' with your 'Glyphs' using the Animus pool -- The Soulknife does what it wants to do, but now also delivers the crowd control, support, or buff you granted it. This coincidentally makes it a great way to introduce other players to Path of War -- A mystic in the party teaches them about maneuvers, slowly over time.

Or you could just punch people with your own enchanted maneuvers.

With that sort of Animus loss though, you'd be constantly empty -- Which comes to my final suggestion: Allow Elemental Flux to grant it's own small pool of Animus that can be added to the Mystics, and have Mystics gain Animus at an increased rate as a class feature. This final fix allows Elemental Flux to be a full, stand alone Discipline; allows the Mystic to actually have the Animus to donate to players, and keep their Glyph system intact, but on a more 'passive' level -- They no longer function like boosts or counters, cleaning up the Mystics action economy, and opening it up for actual boosts or counters.

Also this allows Tap Animus to actually be useful if you have a mystic on your team.

I could try to write out an 'Enchanter' Mystic archetype if you'd want to see this in action.

[NineThePuma]

Your big dumb idea is actually a really cool thing.

I would, very much, enjoy seeing it personally.

[Callin]

I do like the Elemental Flux gives animus idea. Sort of like Sleeping Godess gives Power Points.

[Nyaa]

what are the thoughts on base Mystic?
I like default disciplines, sheer number of maneuvers known (but fix level 10+ progression, it's supposed to be a new maneuver every odd level, not even as it is now, I think), sorc step, Withstand spell and Quell magic. I don't like tracking Animus, but I guess I can tolerate it. I don't like Glyphs because yet another moving part, or recovery mechanics because it's too random. I guess if I ever play Mystic it would be aurora fist mandala adept (iirc the latter replaces glyphs almost completely) or just homebrewed Stalker archetype.

Would you guys consider making mandala adept into base mystic? Not sure if squeaking Avatar fans are any large part of DSP auditory, but there were lots of them in Kineticist thread.

One more general design question came to mind - is it really necessary to have a class feature on every level when initiators gain new maneuver level every odd level, and everyone gains a feat every odd level? Would it improve class design quality (over quantity) if most class features came at even levels?

[Taveena]

Admittedly, if Glyphs were all Animus augments, that'd tighten up the class a fair bit...

[Tempestfury]

This 'Big Dumb Idea' of Grinningcat sounds fantastic.

[Vhaidara]

Would you guys consider making mandala adept into base mystic? Not sure if squeaking Avatar fans are any large part of DSP auditory, but there were lots of them in Kineticist thread.

IIRC, that was originally how it was going to work, which is why Madala Adept was such an extensive archetype that included ALL of the wording from the original class.

I personally don't support that idea. What I think needs to be decided is how Mystic is going to be designed. Glyphs imply support class, the devs say support class, but their discipline selection screams striker to me. Current, Flux, and Wind are all damage disciplines, while Hourglass, Moon, and Mirror are mostly high utility disciplines. I mean, you made a support class without Golden Lion, the support discipline. And you highly incentivize them to build for Flux, which has little to no support aspect.

[Ilorin Lorati]

If Mystic is going to be support, it needs to be support. Having Glyphs provide buffs and debuffs to allies and enemies, respectively, on a strike is a perfect way to do that without needing Golden Lion - and even then, Golden Lion is still the support discipline.

[Vhaidara]

If Mystic is going to be support, it needs to be support. Having Glyphs provide buffs and debuffs to allies and enemies, respectively, on a strike is a perfect way to do that without needing Golden Lion - and even then, Golden Lion is still the support discipline.

The problem is, if the only support you provide is incidental to being a striker (initiating damage maneuvers), then you aren't a support. I mean, Warlord is more of a support than the Mystic right now, because he has
1. Golden Lion
2. Some gambits give bonuses to allies
3. Warleader
4. Tactical Presence

Hell, Warder and Zealot are better supports. Warder brings Golden Lion access, Aegis, and protection, while Zealot revolves around helping allies, all the way down to the recovery mechanic.

As it stands, the Mystic isn't a support. It is a Striker with an ability that can be used as support tacked onto it. And I say "can be" because, especially at low levels, Glyphs are better than boosts, especially the ones people are considering good glyphs, like Stunning Peal. Seriously, compare 2d4 sonic damage + Save or Stagger to any first level Boost.

[Anlashok]

Maybe just let the mystic stay an offensive powerhouse? Both of the other PoW:E classes are "magical support" anyways so the mystic isn't exactly new design space for the book and between both PoW books there's only one proper striker anyways. The mystic's discipline spread is flavorful and I can't really see what you'd want to remove either.

Ultimately I still think glyphs just need to be cleaned up, not removed. They're cool and one of the class' core mechanics. Let them stay. Just fix the balance and make the class more synergistic

[Callin]

I feel Elemental Flux fits with the Support role while still wanting to do some damage. It has some nice riders while giving you a slight increase in damage. At least to me. Variable Flux, Elemental Strike, Energy Jolt, Lance of Power, Raging Flux, Energy Hammer, Elemental Destruction Ring, and Zephyr Flux. There are some gaps in there and a bit of Overlap, but you got CC in there and debuffing. All depending on the Element and what you are fighting. Undead are immune to most of the Air and Water riders.

[Novawurmson]

Holy cow, I cannot keep up with this thread. Ain't no breaks on this train.


Re: zealot, the Unhindered Thinking conviction doesn't specify any limitations on which of your allies gain bonuses to move speed. Members of your collective? Allies within 30/60 feet? Every dwarf ever?

Allies in your collective. Thanks for t


Tempered Body only applies to critical hits and sneak attacks, and not other sources of precision damage?

It's based off the the alchemist's Preserve Organs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/preserve-organs-ex), which is based off of Fortification armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/fortification). Neither of them specify what happens with other precision damage.

Improved Path of Dedication is technically a different ability from Path of Dedication, so "You still may use this ability only once per round" does not refer to the base Path of Dedication ability the way it should.


Path of Dedication's bonus move action "must" be taken immediately, which means it can't not be taken. Advise adjusting.

Added a "willing" as a stopgap measure, but I think there's a better way to phrase it.

[Doomeye56]

I like the glyphs, though I didn't use them much in the the few games I played a Mystic.

Overly complicated describes every character I try and make so I never really thought glyphs added too much in that area.

[Prime32]

The mystic's fluff and discipline choice still don't really gel with Glyphs for me. I could see them on an archetype maybe, but it doesn't seem like something everyone with "roiling, untamed arcane energies" should be doing by default. Added to that, the class already introduces at least two new mechanics even without Glyphs (three if you count active energy types), so it's a lot to keep track of.

Some of AGrinningCat's stuff sounds good (not needing to keep track of Glyph activations and durations would cut down on bookkeeping), but I'm not so sure about giving Elemental Flux its own animus pool - I figure the class could do with reducing its ties to that discipline if anything.

Since most of Elemental Flux's animus augments are pretty similar I figure you could remove them from the discipline itself, folding some into Elemental Attunement, and then turning all the mystic's uses of animus into a single ability similar to how Grit is formatted. Something like...

Animus Burst (Su): A mystic can expend animus for various effects. Any maneuver modified by this ability becomes a supernatural ability.

Elemental Infusion: At 1st level, a mystic can spend 1 point of animus while initiating a strike to increase its save DC by +1 and change its damage type to fire, cold, acid or electricity. If the strike already inflicted damage of the chosen type, then it instead inflicts +1d6 damage per six mystic levels (minimum +1d6). If the strike has effects based on the user's active energy type (such as many strikes from the Elemental Flux discipline) then the mystic resolves its effects using the damage type chosen for this ability in place of his active energy type.

Mystic Barrier: At 1st level a mystic can expend 1 point of animus as an immediate action to gain a deflection bonus to AC against one attack equal to his Wisdom modifier.

Sorcerous Step: At 4th level, a mystic can spend 1 point of animus to Sorcerous Step.

Split Strike: At 4th level, a mystic can use a strike against two targets within range. <based on the augment for Energy Spark>

Burst Strike: At 7th level, a mystic can spend 1 point of animus while initiating a strike to have it affect all targets in a 15ft burst, or increase its radius if it's already an AoE. <based on the augment for Arcane Torrent>

Reaching Strike: At 7th level, a mystic can spend 1 point of animus while initiating a strike to increase its range by one category (Touch -> Close -> Medium -> Long), or double it if inapplicable.

Arcane Flight: At 10th level, a mystic can spend X points of animus to gain a fly speed equal to his land speed until the start of his next turn.

Safe Zone: At 10th level, a mystic can spend 1 point of animus while initiating a strike that affects an area in order to have it affect only enemies within that area.

Force Infusion: At 13th level, a mystic can spend 3 points of animus while initiating a strike to increase its save DC by +1 and change its damage type to force damage. If the strike already inflicted force damage, then it instead inflicts +1d6 damage. <based on the augment for Force Majere>

Quell Magic: At 13th level, a mystic can expend animus as a standard action to Quell Magic.
Giving your maneuvers longer ranges and bigger AoEs than anyone else seems very fitting for a blaster mystic, and IMO it makes Mithral Current feel more at home due to the synergy with its "wave" maneuvers.

[stack]

Would a feat for allowing sleeping goddess to be augmented with animus (or elemental flux by PP, or either with essence) be worth pursuing?

[Vhaidara]

Goddess with Animus, maybe. Flux with PP, not a chance in hell. PP doesn't need to be built up, and you get WAY too much of it.

[Elricaltovilla]

Would a feat for allowing sleeping goddess to be augmented with animus (or elemental flux by PP, or either with essence) be worth pursuing?

It would be really tough to balance as they all scale differently. It could theoretically be done, but I have a psych degree not a PHD in mathematics.

[Eox]

I can't see a huge problem with augmenting Flux with PP. All of the augments have set caps and it's already not too difficult to remain Animus-neutral with a decent wisdom modifier. Unless you're not initiating any maneuvers while pumping out glyphs it's nigh impossible to run out.

E: Making Elemental Flux viable without being a Mystic or the Tap Animus feat is something worth pursuing, in my mind.

[Taveena]

I agree that Elemental Flux should be viable without having to spend a feat on Tap Animus - Sleeping Goddess gives plenty of PP and Empty Pyramid gives enough Essence, while Elemental Flux just kind of falls behind without that feat tax.

I also agree that the idea of the 'oh god I'm exploding with magic" class being able to scribe glyphs is a bit... odd. It seems like it should be more untamed.

[MilleniaAntares]

Elemental Flux is plenty viable in my opinion.

You might not be able to wring as much from certain maneuvers without animus, but that doesn't mean it isn't "viable".

[Eox]

I suppose viable was the wrong term, what I mean is that Elemental Flux should be a little more divorced from the Mystic because as it stands I wouldn't really consider using it with any other initiator. Sleeping Goddess suffers from a similar problem, but the bonus PP fixes it nicely.

[Nyaa]

On Zealot.

Morale bonuses. Courageous weapons.
Impossible Epiphany save is weird. Shouldn't it be 10 + half level + CHA mod?
Living Bastion - last sentence probably should say that free action can be taken when it is not your turn.
Sight Beyond Sight - can these be used not in combat? Is second augment's range limited only by collective range?

[tekevil]

I dunno if any ships have sailed, but I'd love to see

More Stalker Arts
Warlord Gambits
More Psionic Paths for the Pathwalker

Maybe even a few more archtypes for the PW1 classes. I could totally see a Gambit/trick shot based Warlord archetype that makes use of Tempest Gale being a super cool thing. Since Vanguard commandos are focused on being defensive daredevils in heavy armor another cool archetype could be a mobile Warlord specialized in using his shield offensively.

[scorpioni]

I really like Prime32's idea. It really divorces the mystic from Flux, allowing a more varied choice of disciplines and more uses for Animus. I still don't have an idea on what to do with Glyphs though...

[MilleniaAntares]

I'm not sure how possible it is to change harbinger things now that it's been released, but I was thinking back to Dark Tidings.

And given the possible (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lV8i-pSVMaQ/maxresdefault.jpg) inspiration for a harbinger with a swim speed, perhaps it would be appropriate thematically and power-wise to have that option give the harbinger a (stronger) bite attack? An extra attack is not exactly something to scoff at, but it would mostly come into play during full attacks and maneuvers that call for them.

In addition, the offensive oriented mindset may allow people to consider taking that instead of the optimal-by-default options of teleportation and flight.

[AGrinningCat]

You say optimal, but I've already had to players in two different campaigns die due to underwater combat.

But yeah, teleport and flight are too good to pass up really.

Edit: Rather than a bite attack, how about dealing full damage while under water with no penalties swinging into or under it?

[Haelfyr]

I honestly like the crimson countess archetype, but I can't ever imagine actually taking it in a game I'm playing. Losing flight/teleportation is just too big a pill to swallow, and the alternative that you get (while thematically kinda cool) is pretty lackluster. Maybe decrease the maneuverability of the archetype somewhat, and make it more like a slower, methodical killer. And get rid of the fast heal. It doesn't really need it.

[Dromuthra]

Edit: Rather than a bite attack, how about dealing full damage while under water with no penalties swinging into or under it?

Yes please. As one of those players that died due to underwater combat, this would be MUCH better than getting a bite attack.

[AGrinningCat]

Water fighting:
1) Attacking from land to water, if the defender is at least in chest high water, the defender gets a +8 AC and +4 to reflex saves. Completely submerged is Total Cover.
2) Ranged attacks receive a -2 penalty per 5ft of water they pass through. Throwing weapons don't work at all.
3) Melee attacks (Slash or Bludgeoning) are at a -2 to hit, and deal half damage when they hit. Piercing works normally.
4) You have to make a swim check every turn. Failing this swim check means you 'Flail about', losing your Dex to AC and enemies get a +2 to hit you. You also cannot move, and if you fail bad enough, you go under. If you fail your swim check, even your piercing attacks get -2 to hit and half damage.
5) Even if you succeed your swim check, you can only move at a quarter of your speed with a move or half your speed as a full round.

A swim speed fixes the need to make swim checks. You still can't throw weapons, ranged attacks are penalized, and slashing/bludgeoning still are at -2/half. Freedom of movement fixes most, if not all of the problems, however.

Oh, and drowning rules as well.
...Not that drowning kills you by RAW, but harbinger doesn't need to breathe with the swim-speed, so you don't have to worry about that.

[Nyaa]

How did you even get underwater, and why are you fighting there without preparation?
Also, lightning bolt / call lightning / chain lightning. If you are in water yourself or don't have anything but shocking grasp, don't forget electricity resistance.

[Novawurmson]

Would a feat for allowing sleeping goddess to be augmented with animus (or elemental flux by PP, or either with essence) be worth pursuing?

I had an idea for a feat that was basically "Expend psionic focus, gain 1 anima," but I hadn't run any kind of numbers to see how abusable it was.


On Zealot.

Morale bonuses. Courageous weapons.

Hrm. Linking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/courageous) for easy discussion. Courageous is extremely good for the zealot, but I think the saving grace is that it's only your morale bonuses, not the morale bonuses you grant to others, meaning the zealot stands to gain as much from it as, say, the bard or barbarian. Actually, I'd say the barbarian benefits even more, gaining a +2 bonus to Str, Con, and Will saves (with a +4 courageous weapon), but the point remains: The zealot shouldn't throw out morale bonuses willy-nilly without considering what will happen by bumping them up by 2. I'm looking at revelation's bonus to initiative right now, wondering if it should just be untyped.


Impossible Epiphany save is weird. Shouldn't it be 10 + half level + CHA mod?

Hrm. It was originally based on Entangling Ectoplasm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/entangling-ectoplasm), but I wanted the DC to scale without further PP expenditure.


Living Bastion - last sentence probably should say that free action can be taken when it is not your turn.

Yeah, that sentence sure was goofy. Thanks.


Sight Beyond Sight - can these be used not in combat? Is second augment's range limited only by collective range?

The official rule is that you can only use maneuvers in combat. If you GM will let you use it as a poor man's T’Nail’s Ardent Legion (UP p. 160), have at it. And yes, the only limit on range is your collective.

Now, off to work on the bleak emissary.

[AGrinningCat]

How did you even get underwater, and why are you fighting there without preparation?
Also, lightning bolt / call lightning / chain lightning. If you are in water yourself or don't have anything but shocking grasp, don't forget electricity resistance.

Fun fact: There aren't any rules (That I or anyone else could find) about electricity and water.
Fire is penalized in water (Non magical doesn't work, Fire requires DC 20+Spell level check), and even casting spells requires a DC 15+ spell level check if you can't breathe underwater.

Also you can't plan for everything. Sometimes a water elemental drops you down a slip-and-slide and no one took ranks in Swim.

[Kymera]

Was Mystic seriously intended as a support class? Uh, yea, big fail. They're the least support-friendly class in PoW. The PoW classes that best lend themselves to a support roll, by far, are Zealot and Warlord. The rest of the pack trails well behind those, but all are still viable, except maybe Stalker, which is marginal, but still a better fit than Mystic. Heck, I'm currently playing a Harbinger in a support role, who is working splendidly. Mystic, I have tried and tried, and I just cannot build a viable support character around that class.

If that really was the intention, then why, oh why, did you give them, well, any of the abilities they have? Glyphs is literally their only ability that supports support, and even then, only some of them, and not the strongest ones. Every other ability they have just screams striker first, striker second, and anything but support third. They are far more tightly bound to their signature discipline than any other martial class (the Elemental Flux: the Class comments maybe go a bit too far, but they do have a point), and that signature discipline is absolutely not in any way a support discipline, it's a striker discipline with a modest minor in battlefield control. Their miscellaneous other stuff includes significant damage support and near zero support support. Even their recovery mechanic is at its best on a striker, who can benefit from improved action economy, and is at its absolute worst on a support, because playing support effectively is all about picking the right moment to throw the right ability, and random recovery absolutely devastates that.

So now can you see why I was so quick and so confident to assume it was intended for strikers?

[stack]

Well, the obvious point is that glyphs are support, giving defenses to allies and boosting their damage against enemies, hence my contention that glyphs should be emphasized more rather than removed. Glyphs can effectively boost the mystic as well, but it seems to me they are easy enough to spread around.

[Seerow]

For what it's worth, Re: Mystics, I agree with the general sentiment that Glyphs seem out of place as they stand. I really like the ideas from AGrinningCat. His general plan of Rework Glyphs (Glyphs now modify maneuvers), Share Maneuvers/Glyphs/Animus, and have Elemental Flux come with its own separate supply of animus (to supplement the base Animus and make the discipline potentially useful for other classes), seems to me like a more streamlined approach that fits the support/control role intended for the class.

btw was Animus created just for the Mystic, or is there another Pathfinder class that uses it? Google hasn't been helpful in turning up any other classes using the subsystem, but it seems weird for a two new separate subsystems to have been developed for Mystic, so I assume it has a basis from somewhere.

[Doomeye56]

Animus is mystic only as far as I know.

Well the feat too.

[CyanEyed]

How did you even get underwater, and why are you fighting there without preparation?

What easy-mode campaigns do you run, where you have days to plan before going swimming?

[Elricaltovilla]

Animus and Glyphs are mystic exclusive. They sprung fully formed from the head of Chris Bennet, the great god-king of Path of War.

[Seerow]

What easy-mode campaigns do you run, where you have days to plan before going swimming?

Armor Crystal of Aquatic Action are dirt cheap, I rarely have a character above 5th level who doesn't have one just in case.

I have no idea if Pathfinder has a similar cheap contingency item though.


Animus and Glyphs are mystic exclusive. They sprung fully formed from the head of Chris Bennet, the great god-king of Path of War.

In that case, yeah, even more reason to roll things back a bit and rethink how to make everything work together in a much more cohesive manner.

[Kaidinah]

Though water rules are funny. You can shoot guns and arrows into the water, but thrown javelins autofail?

[CyanEyed]

Though water rules are funny. You can shoot guns and arrows into the water, but thrown javelins autofail?

Our gun guy had only minimal success shooting into water. That free +8 cover was brutal.

[Kaidinah]

Our gun guy had only minimal success shooting into water. That free +8 cover was brutal. The point I was making is that in real life, the thrown weapon should be the ranged weapon of choice for land-to-water combat instead of bows and guns. But they auto miss with water involved instead.

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay. This has got to be the oddest set of feedback I've ever rolled out of bed to, but let's handle it.

Water-Dweller is not based on Jaws or sharks; it is, in fact, more inspired by beings like kappas, pooka, hags, water spirits, drowned sailors and sirens. Natural attacks can be a tricky thing and I'm loathe to hand one out, even leaving aside entirely the utility you lose out on by not having to breathe.

As far as the underwater combat rules go...guys, 's not my job to fix them. Other underwater options don't either - none of the aquatic races do, hell, only one, singular spell does. Grab a dagger or a spear or something, but making Harbi a superior underwater combatant isn't something in the scope of this project, or frankly something I'm even interested in doing. Water-dweller is there for campaigns where it's appropriate and relevant, or for people who really don't want to have to breathe. I'm aware that in a normal campaign it's going to be inferior to flying and teleporting. In an underwater campaign, it enables concepts that might not otherwise work at all. I'm fine with that.

[AGrinningCat]

Glad we could make your morning weird!

Since freedom of movement fixes all of the the issue with under water combat (to include doing half damage), you could just copy the latter half of Freedom of Movement onto the abilIty and call it a day. With that they won't even need a swim speed!


The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

Then I can throw out Drowned sailor harbingers at my players who use meteor hammers reflavored as anchors to drag players down to the depths.

[Lord_Gareth]

Glad we could make your morning weird!

Since freedom of movement fixes all of the the issue with under water combat (to include doing half damage), you could just copy the latter half of Freedom of Movement onto the abilIty and call it a day. With that they won't even need a swim speed!



Then I can throw out Drowned sailor harbingers at my players who use meteor hammers reflavored as anchors to drag players down to the depths.


What if we, hypothetically, wanted to adapt the combat part of that into a feat that required a stance known from Mirror, Moon, or Current? Removing the "don't need a swim speed" part weakens it a bit - what bonus might be thematically appropriate to compensate for it?

[AGrinningCat]

Well with Freedom of Movement, you're basically given a 'swim speed' that's equivalent to your normal movement mode. The only thing you lose out on an actual Swim speed is... a +8 to swim checks? And the ability to take 10 on a swim check, which you can do with 1 point into swim anyways. The largest issue I can find is in turbulent waters that can force you to move more than you can move normally -- A swim speed wouldn't help here either unless it was greater than the current of the waters (typically 40 to 90 ft per round). At faster water speeds, you have a chance to go under water... which doesn't really matter if you can breathe under water.

For the Harbinger...


Water Dweller: The Harbinger gains a swim speed equal to her base land speed. Additionally, the Harbinger no longer needs to breathe and is immune to inhaled poisons.
Replacing it with

Water Dweller: The Harbinger can move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. Additionally, the Harbinger no longer needs to breathe and is immune to inhaled poisons.
Changes the following

Loses:
•+8 to swim checks
Gains:
• No longer takes penalties for attacking under water with melee weapons.
• No longer loses half damage for certain weapon types.
• Enemies she attacks no longer gain improved cover or total cover.
• No penalties to grappling

This makes it better than Teleport while under water in terms of movement alone. The not needing to breathe is nice, though, when comparing Water-Dweller to Omen-Walk, but rules for drowning is very lax.
-----------

As for a feat... If we start with the base 'Freedom of Movement while underwater', it's simply not enough to take unless you're in a campaign where 90%+ takes place under water, in which case it becomes mandatory unless everyone's a spear using mermaid, in which case you're back to not needing it.

...If I had it my way, I'd actually focus the feat around "Ignoring odd situational penalties." I'd have to do some research (If you don't mind) to get a full feat in order, but I'd probably try to make it a catch-all feat for fighting against weird penalties, like fighting into water or... other weird stuff, which I'd have to look up to see if weird rules like this even exist outside of water terrain.

[Doomeye56]

I like the ideas Grinningcat and Prime32 put forward for glyphs.

I gotta say I'm waiting with bated breath for ErrantX reply after he returns from whatever grand task in the fiery halls of doom that draws his attention elsewhere. (I mean it's not like it could be mundane every day things that bury the rest of us normal folk, no way it could be that)

[Callin]

As am I because it affects my character lol

[Eox]

I've been totally forgetting about glyphs whenever I initiate a strike, they're neat but I really don't think they mesh very well with the class as it stands. Collecting the animus-based features into one entry is a fantastic idea too, in my mind.

Glyphs are a neat idea but I'd honestly say they'd be put to better use with whatever is happening to the Mandala Adept.

[AGrinningCat]

Okay, feat discussion:

Looking at the various Pazio released Terrain (Bog, Forest, Mountain, Aquatic, Plains, Dungeon stuff) (Not Outer Space)
There are the following rules that come into play:

Cover of all types (Partial, Improved, Total)
Attacking while underwater penalties
Movement costs/Difficult Terrain (Anywhere from 1 to 4 extra squares of movement)
Acrobatics DC increases (Generally from 2 to 5)
Stealth DC increases (Generally 2)
Acrobatics/Ride checks for steepness, slipperiness, damage..
Cannot Run
Cannot Charge
---

A feat that catches all would have to look something like...


Terrain feat
Prerequisites:
You may attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled.

Additionally, enemies cannot gain the benefits of cover or concealment (But not total concealment) from you through the use of terrain, whether it be natural (Such as a hill) or man made (Such as a stair case). Acrobatics and Stealth DCs are not increased by terrain, and you may reduce the cost of moving through difficult terrain down to 2 squares per. Finally you may always take 10, even if distracted, for Acrobatics checks in regards to terrain hazards, such as slippery ice, moving down hill, etc.

Even then, I feel that it may not be good enough as is. Maybe a 5ft movement boost increase at all times as well? Pazio has already set the standard for making traits that are strictly better than other traits, but I cannot seem to find any feats that are strictly better (Although the power of feats are all over the place.)

[Forrestfire]

I feel like, even if it's technically not as strong as a lot of feats, that proposed feat has enough stuff going on that it's going to cause blowback from a lot of people about it being "overpowered."

I would likely use a feat that hit some of the important bits (penalties to attack rolls, movement), but kept enemies able to use concealment (because I think that being able to turn off the ability to use Stealth against you is a bit too strong for a feat. Poor rogues/roguelikes). Something like this:



Terrain Mastery That's already a name for a feat. Whoops.
You are perfectly at home in your chosen environment.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Geography) 1 rank, Survival 1 rank
Benefit: Select one of the following terrain types: cold (ice, glaciers, snow, and tundra), desert (sand and wastelands), forest (coniferous and deciduous), jungle, mountains (including hills), plains, swamp, underground (caves and dungeons), urban (buildings, streets, and sewers), or water (above and below the surface).

While in this terrain, your attacks ignore cover less than total cover from terrain elements (for example: trees, stalagmites, and the surface of water), and in the case of water terrain, you take no additional penalties from making attacks underwater (and can use thrown weapons as if you were not underwater), and you deal full damage regardless of the weapon you're using.

In addition, your Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth check DCs are not increased by terrain elements of your chosen terrain, and you ignore difficult terrain caused by these terrain elements.


The skill tax is easy to get (2 ranks at level 1), but often not class skills, so it at least looks like it's a real prerequisite. I think that letting someone take 10 on the skills is a good idea, but a bit too visibily powerful (and honestly, probably not necessary, since the check DCs are low enough that with the lack of a DC increase from terrain, you're more than likely to pass).

[ErrantX]

I like the ideas Grinningcat and Prime32 put forward for glyphs.

I gotta say I'm waiting with bated breath for ErrantX reply after he returns from whatever grand task in the fiery halls of doom that draws his attention elsewhere. (I mean it's not like it could be mundane every day things that bury the rest of us normal folk, no way it could be that)

Sinus infection, both ears are infected, and its trying to fight its way to my lungs. I've felt awful for days. Plus sick family. Sorry, been a bad few days in the real world for me. Working on mystic revisions now. On the mend. :smallbiggrin:

-X

[Forrestfire]

Eep, I'm sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better :smallfrown:

[tekevil]

That is pure misery. I pray you get better soon.

No one is gonna get mad if you take some well deserved time off to pump yourself full of rest and OJ.

[TheIronGolem]

Ravenlord question: Does the Dark Messenger benefit from bonuses to the Ravenlord's INT? Or does it just get the Ravenlord's base INT? A literal reading seems to imply the former, but I'd like to know for sure so I can get Hero Lab doing the right thing.

Also, ErrantX, please do not die of an infection. At least, not until a gun-focused Harbinger archetype has been completed. I need a Vincent-Valentine-in-a-can class.

[Ilorin Lorati]

See, here I am thinking that he'd better not kick the bucket before him and the rest of the folks over at Dreamscarred Press go mad with power and decide to make their own RPG with blackjack and martials.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ravenlord question: Does the Dark Messenger benefit from bonuses to the Ravenlord's INT? Or does it just get the Ravenlord's base INT? A literal reading seems to imply the former, but I'd like to know for sure so I can get Hero Lab doing the right thing.

The Dark Messenger's Intelligence is always equal to that of its master. It benefits from temporary and item-based bonuses provided to the Ravenlord that owns it. That also means that bonuses and penalties applied to the bird directly do nothing; that is, putting a headband of vast intellect on the bird won't raise its Intelligence, and touch of idiocy won't lower it. Dealing Intelligence damage to the Ravenlord that owns the bird will damage both.

[NineThePuma]

Vincent Valentine wouldn't be a harbinger. O.o

[TheIronGolem]

The Dark Messenger's Intelligence is always equal to that of its master. It benefits from temporary and item-based bonuses provided to the Ravenlord that owns it. That also means that bonuses and penalties applied to the bird directly do nothing; that is, putting a headband of vast intellect on the bird won't raise its Intelligence, and touch of idiocy won't lower it. Dealing Intelligence damage to the Ravenlord that owns the bird will damage both.
Wow, that was quick. Good to know.

[scorpioni]

Don't forget that Battle Dragon Stance ErrantX; you deal more damage to the infection that way!

[Lord_Gareth]

Wow, that was quick. Good to know.

I try, but I'm going to be gone for the next couple of days, so...good timing ~_^

[Taveena]

SO! Seeing as the Knight Disciple is apparently stupidly overpowered when it has Smite Evil... Is there any way that they could, perhaps, get some kind of evil-targetting debuff or utility? There was some talk about how it might work if they had Claim, in which Sin Eater came up...

And, well, I thought something with similar FLUFF could be cool? An exorcism or the like, FORCING the evil out of them to cause a debuff or support your allies somehow. I haven't really got any crunchy ideas at the moment, save for the utterly half-assed 'declare NOTSMITE, enemy radiates damage to other nearby enemies as the evil is purged from them', so... I dunno. Anyone else have ideas?

[NineThePuma]

SO! Seeing as the Knight Disciple is apparently stupidly overpowered when it has Smite Evil... Is there any way that they could, perhaps, get some kind of evil-targetting debuff or utility? There was some talk about how it might work if they had Claim, in which Sin Eater came up...

And, well, I thought something with similar FLUFF could be cool? An exorcism or the like, FORCING the evil out of them to cause a debuff or support your allies somehow. I haven't really got any crunchy ideas at the moment, save for the utterly half-assed 'declare NOTSMITE, enemy radiates damage to other nearby enemies as the evil is purged from them', so... I dunno. Anyone else have ideas?

http://pastebin.com/iJeZ3fPF original suggestion for a Claim mechanic. Do with it as you will.

[Kaidinah]

SO! Seeing as the Knight Disciple is apparently stupidly overpowered when it has Smite Evil... Is there any way that they could, perhaps, get some kind of evil-targetting debuff or utility? There was some talk about how it might work if they had Claim, in which Sin Eater came up...

And, well, I thought something with similar FLUFF could be cool? An exorcism or the like, FORCING the evil out of them to cause a debuff or support your allies somehow. I haven't really got any crunchy ideas at the moment, save for the utterly half-assed 'declare NOTSMITE, enemy radiates damage to other nearby enemies as the evil is purged from them', so... I dunno. Anyone else have ideas?
We actually had a lot of suggestions regarding this last thread. One of which being Nine's Claim mechanic. Honestly, I prefer most of the suggestions made over the insane damage of a smite+boosted full-attack.

[Llyarden]

If you roll a natural 20 on a counter, does the counter automatically succeed, even if the counter roll was lower than the roll you were trying to negate?

Also, I apologise for putting all these questions somewhere where they only tenuously belong, but I haven't yet managed to find any kind of FAQ thread for all this.

[Nyaa]

If you roll a natural 20 on a counter, does the counter automatically succeed, even if the counter roll was lower than the roll you were trying to negate?
General rule is that only attack rolls and saving throws are affected by nat1/nat20. So I'd say if you roll nat20 on a counter that uses your attack roll, it's auto success. On counter that rolls skill, it's not.

[Tempestfury]

Vincent Valentine wouldn't be a harbinger. O.o

Oh? And what do you say he would be then?

[Taveena]

We actually had a lot of suggestions regarding this last thread. One of which being Nine's Claim mechanic. Honestly, I prefer most of the suggestions made over the insane damage of a smite+boosted full-attack.

Yeah, I've heard that was pretty overwhelming - my main concern over the claim mechanic is... well, they're not exactly eating souls, are they? I've heard other ways of fluffing it, but most of them were justice-based.

One interesting suggestion that came up was... well. It isn't much, really! But a Brand. The idea of searing your devotion into an evil target for SOME BENEFIT seemed kind of cool.

[AGrinningCat]

Something interesting in the new book is that Barbarians have stances now. Sorta.

I don't forsee this affecting already written PoW material (They use the distinction stance rage powers), but it is something interesting of note.

http://i.imgur.com/2R5PaV0.png

The new book may want a small blurb on Stance rage powers and stance interaction, though.

[Lord_Gareth]

Something interesting in the new book is that Barbarians have stances now. Sorta.

I don't forsee this affecting already written PoW material (They use the distinction stance rage powers), but it is something interesting of note.

Eeenteresting. But can I ask you to spoiler block that image please? It's kinda big.

[AGrinningCat]

Eeenteresting. But can I ask you to spoiler block that image please? It's kinda big.

Not a problem. Everything is big on my phone, so it's hard to tell!

[Llyarden]

And yet another question (I do apologise about all these.) Is there any way to bypass the restrictions (such as 'melee attack') that are inbuilt into manuevers? The specific example that has come up is Charging Hurler + Raging Hunter Pounce, but I'm sure that there are others.

[Elricaltovilla]

Minor announcement on my part:

Vigilante's maneuver recovery has been fixed for now. We're discussing alternative maneuver recovery options though, so it's still subject to change.

Knight Disciple's Smite has been replaced with the Mark of Censure, which provides allies DR/- against attacks made by the marked creature equal to the Knight Disciple's initiation modifier. I will likely get yelled at for this.:smalltongue:

Latest version of the new Mithral Current 9th:


Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

The true master of the Mithral Current knows the dance of battle and every step that he takes is perfectly attuned to that deadly rhythm. Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 5 ft. step that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, your counterattacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage for each time you were attacked by that creature, to a maximum of 6d6 points of additional damage.


I'm toying with the idea of removing the protection from AoOs in order to help provoke more attacks, but the downside is that it also makes it a more dangerous counter to use (increased chance of nat 20s).

[squiggit]

That's pretty damn cool and I like the stacking die effect, but since gushing won't do any good:

I'm still a bit worried about how backloaded its effects are. Dancing through a group of enemies and then counter attacking them all sounds awesome, but I just feel like I'm going to have a lot of fights where I activate the counter, dodge one attack, then the enemy five foot steps away to use the rest of his full attack on someone else and... That's it, don't even get the counter attack because he's outside my reach.

Out of curiosity, what do you think was wrong with the old ninth? I guess it wasn't the most exciting move, but it was incredibly flavorful and seemed like the perfect capstone for an iaijutsu discipline. Unsheathe and release the power of a full attack routine in a single slice and all.

[Ilorin Lorati]

About Vigilante: Well it's not actually any different, but at least it works now. That said, I do still hope you come up with something unique for it - but I still can't think for the life of me what that would be.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm still a bit worried about how backloaded its effects are. I just feel like I'm going to have a lot of fights where I activate the counter, dodge one attack, then the enemy five foot steps away to use the rest of his full attack on someone else and... That's it, don't even get the counter attack because he's outside my reach.

Out of curiosity, what do you think was wrong with the old ninth? I guess it wasn't the most exciting move, but it was incredibly flavorful and seemed like the perfect capstone for an iaijutsu discipline. Unsheathe and release the power of a full attack routine in a single slice and all.

That's my bad, it should allow you to still counterattack regardless of range. I'll fix it when I'm not at lunch.

Personally, I love the original 9th. I'd keep it except that its damage would need to be scaled back just like the BB and PF 9ths. But if I want to emphasize that this is a counter focused discipline, then it does make sense for the ultimate mithral current maneuver to be a counter.

[TheIronGolem]

Minor announcement on my part:

Vigilante's maneuver recovery has been fixed for now. We're discussing alternative maneuver recovery options though, so it's still subject to change.

Knight Disciple's Smite has been replaced with the Mark of Censure, which provides allies DR/- against attacks made by the marked creature equal to the Knight Disciple's initiation modifier. I will likely get yelled at for this.:smalltongue:

Latest version of the new Mithral Current 9th:


Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

The true master of the Mithral Current knows the dance of battle and every step that he takes is perfectly attuned to that deadly rhythm. Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 5 ft. step that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, your counterattacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage for each time you were attacked by that creature, to a maximum of 6d6 points of additional damage.


I'm toying with the idea of removing the protection from AoOs in order to help provoke more attacks, but the downside is that it also makes it a more dangerous counter to use (increased chance of nat 20s).

Suggestion: Split the difference by letting the character decide whether or not to provoke when he takes the 5-ft step?

[Elricaltovilla]

About Vigilante: Well it's not actually any different, but at least it works now. That said, I do still hope you come up with something unique for it - but I still can't think for the life of me what that would be.

Functional is better than nothing. We'll come back with something better. I love coming up with new recovery mechanics, they're one of my favorite things about designing for PoW:E.

[squiggit]

That's my bad, it should allow you to still counterattack regardless of range. I'll fix it when I'm not at lunch.
That helps a lot. Still worried about not being able to provoke enough for big damage, but it definitely helps


Personally, I love the original 9th. I'd keep it except that its damage would need to be scaled back just like the BB and PF 9ths. But if I want to emphasize that this is a counter focused discipline, then it does make sense for the ultimate mithral current maneuver to be a counter.
Makes sense. Admittedly in my head I'm still thinking of it as the iaijutsu discipline first, so the old one seemed too perfect.

Don't get me wrong, I like the counter stuff too.

[master4sword]

Knight Disciple's Smite has been replaced with the Mark of Censure, which provides allies DR/- against attacks made by the marked creature equal to the Knight Disciple's initiation modifier. I will likely get yelled at for this.:smalltongue:

No yelling from here; I like it. Gives the Knight Disciple a team-aiding defensive ability to replace Smite, and it's not like the DR will be overpowering or anything.

[The Glyphstone]

Just an idle thought, but with regards to the Vigilante - could it be modified to, instead of forbidding taking stalker arts that require Ki, to instead have those arts cost Inspiration to use?

[Elricaltovilla]

Fixin' stuff again.


Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

The true master of the Mithral Current knows the dance of battle and every step that he takes is perfectly attuned to that deadly rhythm. Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 10 ft. step which does not provoke attacks of opportunity, although you may choose to provoke an attack of opportunity if you wish. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. You can make the counterattacks against each creature that attacked you regardless of the distance between you and the attacking creature. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, your counterattacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage for each time you were attacked by that creature, to a maximum of 6d6 points of additional damage.

[TheIronGolem]

Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 10 ft. step which does not provoke attacks of opportunity,
Does it have to be a 10-ft step, or is 5-ft okay too? And since "10-ft step" is not technically a thing in the rules as far as I'm aware, perhaps some clarification is needed regarding whether that counts against your movement total for your upcoming turn.


although you may choose to provoke an attack of opportunity if you wish.

Hooray, my feedback was incorporated! Now I am officially a game designer! "But being a designer involves more than-" Offically. Game. Designer. "No seriously, there's a lot of-" SHUT UP LET ME HAVE THIS!


At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. You can make the counterattacks against each creature that attacked you regardless of the distance between you and the attacking creature.

Assuming a melee weapon, is the intent to resolve the counterattacks as melee even if the target is not in melee range? Should probably clarify that.


If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, your counterattacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage for each time you were attacked by that creature
Attacked and missed, or just attacked?

[tekevil]

I absolutely adore Mark of Censure!

Though how does it interact with Aura of Justice

Aura of Justice (Su): At 11th level, a paladin can expend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses. Allies must use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.

[ErrantX]

And yet another question (I do apologise about all these.) Is there any way to bypass the restrictions (such as 'melee attack') that are inbuilt into manuevers? The specific example that has come up is Charging Hurler + Raging Hunter Pounce, but I'm sure that there are others.

Incompatible. Maneuvers don't play nice with that Charging Hurler by the RAW, to my understanding. Strikes aren't attacks per se, they are standard or full round actions that apply an attack. They're their own self-contained deal. There are other abilities that modify this. Stalker for example, has something for that.

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

No yelling from here; I like it. Gives the Knight Disciple a team-aiding defensive ability to replace Smite, and it's not like the DR will be overpowering or anything.

Well I want to make sure the Knight Disciple is a good tank, but without doing it the way Warder, Zealot and Monk of the Silver Fist do it. So I tried to focus on providing buffs to allies that make the Knight Disciple a more appealing target than his allies.


Does it have to be a 10-ft step, or is 5-ft okay too? And since "10-ft step" is not technically a thing in the rules as far as I'm aware, perhaps some clarification is needed regarding whether that counts against your movement total for your upcoming turn.



Hooray, my feedback was incorporated! Now I am officially a game designer! "But being a designer involves more than-" Offically. Game. Designer. "No seriously, there's a lot of-" SHUT UP LET ME HAVE THIS!



Assuming a melee weapon, is the intent to resolve the counterattacks as melee even if the target is not in melee range? Should probably clarify that.


Attacked and missed, or just attacked?

Man, you're really digging into this one aren't you? For the record, 10 ft. steps are kind of a thing. They exist elswhere, and are already part of Mithral Current anyway. I'll get on another rewrite later.


I absolutely adore Mark of Censure!

Though how does it interact with Aura of Justice

By giving me a headache...

[Doomeye56]

Ok, on the Monk of the Silver Fist I found it really lacking as a tank. Sure it was tanky and when it used its full round recover action it could make an ally tanky. But it's Mark didn't do much to detter enemies from trying to attack my allies.

I spent most of my time using the full round recover just so I could bounce between my allies as was needed. But unless I was lucky in the turn order I didn't get to use my counter as effectively as they should be used.

In game terms, I couldn't keep aggro.

[Elricaltovilla]

Ok, on the Monk of the Silver Fist I found it really lacking as a tank. Sure it was tanky and when it used its full round recover action it could make an ally tanky. But it's Mark didn't do much to detter enemies from trying to attack my allies.

I spent most of my time using the full round recover just so I could bounce between my allies as was needed. But unless I was lucky in the turn order I didn't get to use my counter as effectively as they should be used.

In game terms, I couldn't keep aggro.

I was concerned something like that might happen. The monk of the silver fist is meant more to be a bodyguard than a true tank. Ideally, you'd be protecting one or two high priority allies, sticking near them and keeping attacks off of them with your maneuvers and recovery. The mark is a lot like the warder's mark, it's a secondary incentive to attack the monk over another ally. I'll take a look at tweaking things to make it better at pulling aggro.

EDIT: Is there anything in particular you thought might help pull aggro more?

[Doomeye56]

If I was able to keep my allies grouped together it might work better by my ally Harbinger doesn't like to stay put.

Their full round rocovery is much weaker then the very similar one of the Knight Diciple. So maybe extend the length of the buff theirs gives or maybe give some way for their Mark to punish enemies who try to attack others who arnt the monk, like the Paladins Argent Mark from 4.0.

Edit: oh an edit, so I'll explain myself better if the buff stay around longer it will be easier for the monk to bounce to the next target that needs saving without worrying , and increased defense + -to hit are effective. While my other suggestion is for a more of a catch 22 method. Try to attack me with my high defense or try and attack my ally with lowered accuracy and you also (insert punishment).

[Nyaa]

Is Desperado's Daring Grit gained at 5th level?

[ErrantX]

Is Desperado's Daring Grit gained at 5th level?

Oops, yes. Yes it is.

-X

[Taveena]

I do quite like this smite replacement. Does make them potentially bloody strong at lower levels, admittedly.

[Elricaltovilla]

I do quite like this smite replacement. Does make them potentially bloody strong at lower levels, admittedly.

It makes them a prime target too though. Which is the point.

[tekevil]

Smites are a pretty limited resource and as Elric says, it does a really good job at making you a target of opportunity.

[Fenryr]

While it's quite obvious, I don't think it would hurt to say it's "DR/-" in Mark of Censure.

I like it, by the way. A lot.

[Taveena]

Hrrrm. I'm a little worried for the Knight-Disciple that wants to play facewrecker/support rather than tank/support. I mean, strictly speakin', Censure is still a net gain, but it also encourages people to wail on the Disciple, which is less than ideal if you planned to shred evil people with Silver Crane and your Warder wanted to tank instead.

I'm not quite sure how to resolve this - I suppose it's because the Paladin encompasses a broader variety of potential combat roles than the Warder, and I feel they shouldn't be stuck going meatshield just because they like maneuvers more than spells, if that makes sense?

[tekevil]

Just about everything else in the Knight disciple's kit was changed to supportive abilities. I don't see why this change is what knocked you over the edge.

I mean it's possible to do good damage without doing ridiculous, ungodly, jaw dropingly amounts of it like a Smite+maneuvers combo would do.

Besides, if what you wanted was "smite+maneuvers" then an entire feat chain called Martial Training 1-6 exists specifically for your benefit.

Now if your goal was to do "smite+archery+maneuvers" then I feel sorry for your DM.

[MilleniaAntares]

Hrrrm. I'm a little worried for the Knight-Disciple that wants to play facewrecker/support rather than tank/support. I mean, strictly speakin', Censure is still a net gain, but it also encourages people to wail on the Disciple, which is less than ideal if you planned to shred evil people with Silver Crane and your Warder wanted to tank instead.

I'm not quite sure how to resolve this - I suppose it's because the Paladin encompasses a broader variety of potential combat roles than the Warder, and I feel they shouldn't be stuck going meatshield just because they like maneuvers more than spells, if that makes sense?
Mark of Censure will probably be somewhere along the line of DR 3 or 4/-, with some later on growth to maaaybe DR 7/-, not counting any theoretical "Superior Mark of Censure: your ally's damage reduction from Mark of Censure increases by 2" feats.

If it's a low-level mob, then it would be significant, but for most others, the warder's attack penalty will be more of a problem, I'd say.

Beyond that, you can simply not bother using Mark of Censure unless the warder's almost down, or use it on someone who might not have been pinned down by the warder, such as an archer off to the side.

[Kaidinah]

We got a specialized archetype in the Monk of the Silver Fist. I don't mind seeing it again with the Knight-Disciple. I am a huge fan of archetypes with a purpose.

[Anlashok]

We got a specialized archetype in the Monk of the Silver Fist. I don't mind seeing it again with the Knight-Disciple. I am a huge fan of archetypes with a purpose.

I'm a bit conflicted on the subject personally.

On the one hand, specialized archetypes give the class a lot more purpose than otherwise.

On the other... when you have a broad concept and narrow it down that tightly it ends up cutting off a lot of potentially cool ideas

Though the one I get most torn on is a class, not an archetype: The Zealot is cool and flavorful and well designed, but it irks me a lot that with all the different ways one can conceptualize a psychic initiator, the only full initiating class with psionic ability is the tactician and commander (which incidentally utterly blows the actual Tactician class out of the water, but that's another subject), which leaves a lot of concepts just out of the question without giving up your maneuver progression to play a war soul or pathwalker.

[tekevil]

For all the people who wanted to play "Class X in its original flavor+maneuvers" the Martial training line exists for them. Mostly these archetypes exist to actually be archetypes in their original sense. Not to be class+ or "same flavor with maneuvers," but a new and unique taste on the class that gives you new and very different options.

@Devs
If there isn't a line saying that Martial training can be taken as combat bonus feats, even for classes that use a specific list then it should be added. I think it makes sense that a Monk could use his bonus combat feats to pick up Martial Training.

[Taveena]

For all the people who wanted to play "Class X in its original flavor+maneuvers" the Martial training line exists for them. Mostly these archetypes exist to actually be archetypes in their original sense. Not to be class+ or "same flavor with maneuvers," but a new and unique taste on the class that gives you new and very different options.

This isn't a flavor issue so much as a gameplay issue. It's not the SUPPORT abilities that bug me, it's the TANKING ones. Or, uh, one. I mean there's one of those. Just the Censure.

Plus a Paladin with Martial Training has godawful recovery and still has spells.

I mean personally I want to suggest the Knight Disciple gain both Scarlet Throne and Iron Tortoise, because they're mostly mutually exclusive - it just adds more support for the facesmasher Paladin - but I'm not sure what the design intention here is. Because the Knight Disciple doesn't... appear to alter the fluff. You're still a supernatural very bulky melee/support class.

Knight Disciple just has this one ability which inclines it towards tanking, and... I don't know what to make of that?

[AGrinningCat]

I'm a bit conflicted on the subject personally.

On the one hand, specialized archetypes give the class a lot more purpose than otherwise.

On the other... when you have a broad concept and narrow it down that tightly it ends up cutting off a lot of potentially cool ideas

Though the one I get most torn on is a class, not an archetype: The Zealot is cool and flavorful and well designed, but it irks me a lot that with all the different ways one can conceptualize a psychic initiator, the only full initiating class with psionic ability is the tactician and commander (which incidentally utterly blows the actual Tactician class out of the water, but that's another subject), which leaves a lot of concepts just out of the question without giving up your maneuver progression to play a war soul or pathwalker.

I'm okay with Pathwalker since you can use it to go straight into Awakened Blade. 6th level manifesting and 6th level maneuvers on the same character is basically like playing a mini-gestalt and is awesome. I'm patiently waiting for the new Pathwalker paths myself.

[squiggit]

For all the people who wanted to play "Class X in its original flavor+maneuvers" the Martial training line exists for them. Mostly these archetypes exist to actually be archetypes in their original sense. Not to be class+ or "same flavor with maneuvers," but a new and unique taste on the class that gives you new and very different options.

To be fair, Martial Training tends to be a kind of crummy solution. I mean it's a nice set of feats on its own but is devoid of flavor, eats up most of your feats and leaves you with the worst recovery ever and you only get one discipline out of it.

I think the biggest problem is when the people in question like half an archetype but not the other half. Like the above example, not liking the aggro mechanics on the paladin archetype.

Or.. one of my players was really excited for a spellless initiating ranger but ended up hating ambush hunter because he didn't want to be a beastmaster.

[tekevil]

This isn't a flavor issue so much as a gameplay issue. It's not the SUPPORT abilities that bug me, it's the TANKING ones. Or, uh, one. I mean there's one of those. Just the Censure.

Plus a Paladin with Martial Training has godawful recovery and still has spells.

I mean personally I want to suggest the Knight Disciple gain both Scarlet Throne and Iron Tortoise, because they're mostly mutually exclusive - it just adds more support for the facesmasher Paladin - but I'm not sure what the design intention here is. Because the Knight Disciple doesn't... appear to alter the fluff. You're still a supernatural very bulky melee/support class.

Knight Disciple just has this one ability which inclines it towards tanking, and... I don't know what to make of that?

I don't consider Censure a tanking ability. It's a support ability because it's a buff for your team mates. Sure it incentivizes some enemies to target you, but it does so by buffing your team mates. No different from the Warder's Aegis that gives defensive buffs to allies, but not yourself. The Knight Disciple supports by preventing and making your buddies bad targets and Censure follows that up.

The Knight Disciple currently has Iron Tortoise, Silver Crane, and Golden Lion. So I guess if you want Scarlet Throne for smashing of faces your best bet is to either put a really good argument forward to get it changed or to trait into it.

I don't know about you, but I never once saw the Paladin's fluff as supportive, but more of a unstoppable force of good that couldn't be taken down or stopped for long.

[tekevil]

To be fair, Martial Training tends to be a kind of crummy solution. I mean it's a nice set of feats on its own but is devoid of flavor, eats up most of your feats and leaves you with the worst recovery ever and you only get one discipline out of it.

I think the biggest problem is when the people in question like half an archetype but not the other half. Like the above example, not liking the aggro mechanics on the paladin archetype.

Or.. one of my players was really excited for a spelless initiating ranger but ended up hating ambush hunter because he didn't want to be a beastmaster.

I don't think it's a crummy solution. I think it does an amazing job at forcing the player to choose.

Do they want to keep their class features or their feats to gain maneuvers? You gotta pick something in this trade because honestly giving up nothing, or nothing of value, to gain something of value is just plain bad design.

As for your friend with the spell less initiating ranger wish. The only thing making the Ranger archetype "beast master" is that he gets benefits for flanking with his animal and how he gains maneuvers back while flanking. If it's the fact that he has an animal companion that irks him then what is his idea of a Ranger because it's likely that another class would fit his idea better.

[AGrinningCat]

I think the biggest problem is when the people in question like half an archetype but not the other half. Like the above example, not liking the aggro mechanics on the paladin archetype.

Or.. one of my players was really excited for a spellless initiating ranger but ended up hating ambush hunter because he didn't want to be a beastmaster.

What if the archetypes were a bit more broken down? Like Archetype options? Build your own arhcetype? Trade out class features on a 1 to 1 basis rather than as a packaged deal. Quick and dirty example:

Paladin can give up spells or all aura class features to become an initiator with recovery mechanic G or H.
Paladin can give up Smite Evil or Lay on Hands for ability X, Y, or Z
Paladin can give up Auras or Divine Bond for ability A, B, or C

This way if a Paladin wants to cast spells and still be an initiator (like a Pathwalker), then they can give up their auras.
If they don't want spells, they can give those up instead.
If a Paladin wants to be more aggro, they can sacrifice Lay on Hands for ability X. If they want to be a piercing thunder mounted paladin, they could give up Auras for ability B.

So paladin Alice gives up spells, auras, and Lay on hands for Initiation, Ability X and ability B to make a Holy Rider(With recovery mechanic G for more offense), while Paladin Bob gives up Auras, Divine Bond, and Smite evil to make a Silver-Crane Hospitaler(With recovery mechanic H for more Support).

It's a bit more work, but everyone will go home happy. Except whoever has to write it.

[tekevil]

I disagree a lot in numerous ways, but primarily I say

Maneuvers+Smite=bad

Smite is already the best steroid in the game and combining it with maneuvers is a good way to make DMs and potential reviewers to cry foul when they see it.

If you're comfortable with that kind of stuff in your games then houserule it.

For a product that's intended to sell and make money to a variety of communities it makes no sense to do that.

[squiggit]

Do they want to keep their class features or their feats to gain maneuvers? You gotta pick something in this trade because honestly giving up nothing, or nothing of value, to gain something of value is just plain bad design.
I don't think anyone said anything about not giving up anything. In fact the point I saw had them giving up the exact same things, just for a slightly different benefit.


As for your friend with the spell less initiating ranger wish. The only thing making the Ranger archetype "beast master" is that he gets benefits for flanking with his animal and how he gains maneuvers back while flanking. If it's the fact that he has an animal companion that irks him then what is his idea of a Ranger because it's likely that another class would fit his idea better.

Yeah I ended up just letting him play a stalker with track.


What if the archetypes were a bit more broken down? Like Archetype options? Build your own arhcetype? Trade out class features on a 1 to 1 basis rather than as a packaged deal.
I love archetypes as a concept but I do wish Pathfinder had some ACFs in it too, yeah.

[Taveena]

Do they want to keep their class features or their feats to gain maneuvers? You gotta pick something in this trade because honestly giving up nothing, or nothing of value, to gain something of value is just plain bad design.


I don't want to keep my class features, though. I want to give them up for maneuvers.

It's just that doing so turns me into the meatshield.

I'm pretty happy with the Knight Disciple as it stands, admittedly - it's just that Scarlet Throne wouldn't break the class, simply give it more options, and Censure incentivises enemies to attack you, which seems like it should be more an opt-in thing like Dark Allure, if that makes sense?

[AGrinningCat]

I disagree a lot in numerous ways, but primarily I say
Maneuvers+Smite=bad


Then have maneuvers require you to give up smite. Smite + spells or Smite itself or what have you = Initator(+Recovery, maybe modify how smite works here). Everything else becomes player choice if they want it or not. This way you could be the paladin about hitting evil, be the paladin about being a meat shield, or be the paladin about being supporty. This would do a lot for classes that have multiple iterations of them (Paladin, Ranger being the two most current examples).

Really the biggest hurdles here are the writing and balancing (Which is with all stuff, really), and the fact that there's no precedent set already (Which PoW is already breaking with it's Class Templates).

[tekevil]

Class Templates actually use a near identical system as another 3PP Multi-Class archetypes.

[Tempestfury]

Vigilante's maneuver recovery has been fixed for now. We're discussing alternative maneuver recovery options though, so it's still subject to change.

Darn, even more incompatible with the Bushi...


Fixin' stuff again.


Dance of the Silver Hurricane
Mithral Current (Counter)
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: instantaneous

The true master of the Mithral Current knows the dance of battle and every step that he takes is perfectly attuned to that deadly rhythm. Until the start of your next turn, you can make a Perform (Dance) check in place of your AC or CMD against any attack made against you. Any time an attack misses you, you can make a free 10 ft. step which does not provoke attacks of opportunity, although you may choose to provoke an attack of opportunity if you wish. At the start of your next turn, you can make a single counterattack against each creature that attacked you and missed while this counter was active. You can make the counterattacks against each creature that attacked you regardless of the distance between you and the attacking creature. These counterattacks are treated as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction or vulnerabilities. If you drew your weapon as part of initiating this counter, your counterattacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage for each time you were attacked by that creature, to a maximum of 6d6 points of additional damage.

Well, I'm saddened by the lost of the 'Draw Sword, Counterattack EVERYTHING in Close Range' of the ability, as it all honestly that is much more interesting that the additional damage for each time you were counterattacked... but that ability is still a strong ability in its own right, and I suppose having both is much. The fact its still 'attacks as silver' instead of being 'the enemy is vulnerable to silver for these counterattacks' still annoys me however. We don't need a treat a silver effect on the level 9 maneuver!

The fact it lets you make TEN feet steps is pretty nice however. That is a change I really get behind.