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Tyger
2007-04-16, 04:26 PM
OK...

I'm running a game coming up, and I have allowed the players to start off with quite high level characters, starting at level 10, and having the option (by taking a reduced amount of starting gold) up to level 12. Whatever level you start at, you are starting at the minimum XP for that level.

One of the players has asked to play a Necropolitan Spellstitched Dread Necromancer. I've allowed him to have undergone the ritual to become a Necropolitan at third level, so the XP cost is minimized (3000XP loss total). I am still charging him for the 1000GP out of his starting money.

He is arguing that the conversion and also the spell stitching costs (1000gp and 10000XP as he has a Wisdom of 20) are too high, and it should be assumed that he "earned that back".

I've told him to take a flying leap.

In essence, I believe that all costs associated with the character's theoretical advancement must come out of the starting GP and XP. I'd do the same if the Wizard takes a bunch of craftig feats and wants to have created his own items to reduce his GP costs.

Am I being unfair?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-16, 04:33 PM
Absolutely not. If I remember correctly, that's how the DMG recommends high-level creation as well.

JaronK
2007-04-16, 05:23 PM
You're not really being unfair. While he would theoretically have made back some of the Exp, it's within your right to make him pay the full costs. It's a powerful set of abilities, in any case, and it'll save him money in the long run (if he spellstiched on Animate Dead).

JaronK

Ramza00
2007-04-16, 05:29 PM
Not unfair at all.

The Pink Ninja
2007-04-16, 05:31 PM
That's pretty standard but you could be more polite than "Flying Leap"

Arbitrarity
2007-04-16, 06:17 PM
I think he wants the extra XP back that he would've earned by being back a level...
or something.

Too nasty to calculate though,

Ramza00
2007-04-16, 06:27 PM
Note he can always get spell stiched now, and take the XP. He can have a 6th lvl spell like abilities even if he can't cast 6th lvl spells. He would be 11th lvl instead of 12th lvl.

Getting a free (no material or xp cost)animate dread warrior, create undead, or awaken undead can be worth it, as well as a free animate dead

Tyger
2007-04-16, 09:10 PM
Oh, I was a lot more polite than "flying leap"... that's just my way of saying I said no. I simply pointed out that the templates he wants do have some pretty substantial benefits, especially given his class, and that were there not to be an associted cost (as laid out in the rule books) then the other characters would also be entitled to a significant advantage for free as well. As it was easier to apply the listed costs to him then to give everyone else a freebie, the easiest method won out.

I am glad to hear (read?) that the consensus is that this is fair and equitable. THought I might be going overboard. Thanks all.

Zincorium
2007-04-16, 09:30 PM
Well, considering that already being undead completely negates many of the class features, you could probably get away with letting them play alongside a fairly optimized band of other characters, but it's certainly going to be a much higher powered game than is standard.

Assassinfox
2007-04-16, 09:44 PM
What happens when the necropolitan hits level 20 dread necromancer? o.O

Macrovore
2007-04-16, 09:46 PM
he doesn't get the lichdom. it says in the text "a dread nec that isn't humanoid doesn't get this class feature"

on a related note, can an undead dread necromancer heal himself with charnel touch and negative energy burst?

Assassinfox
2007-04-16, 09:55 PM
he doesn't get the lichdom. it says in the text "a dread nec that isn't humanoid doesn't get this class feature"

Harsh! :smalleek:

JaronK
2007-04-16, 11:38 PM
on a related note, can an undead dread necromancer heal himself with charnel touch and negative energy burst?

Yes. This is why most Dread Necromancers either become Necropolitans or take the Tomb Tainted Soul feat. It's quite handy.

JaronK

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 07:22 AM
What happens when the necropolitan hits level 20 dread necromancer? o.O
He wouldn't become a lich.

Now if the necropolitan pays for a true resurrection he would become human or whatever race he was and then he can become a lich.

Note though he would lose the benefits of being spell stiched and would need the template to be reapplied to him.

Tyger
2007-04-17, 08:42 AM
Yup, were he to make it to level 20 (if this one shot turns into a campaign for example) he would need to be the recipient of a True Ressurection spell, then become a lich, and re-apply his Spell-Stitched template at that time.

And yes, he can benefit from the healing of his Charnal Touch, but I am ruling that he gets no healing from is Negative Energy Burst, as it does not include him in the burst, otherwise non-undead Dread Necromancers would never ever use this ability.

And yeah, this character is going to be a problem, especially when he comes to me and asks if he can start with the 100HD of undead already under his control.... still trying to figure out what to do about that. :smallbiggrin:

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 08:49 AM
Allow 100 HD of undead, but allow from a list of monsters you have already created of what he can choose. Else he will custom pick 100HD of the best undead.

Tyger
2007-04-17, 08:51 AM
Oh yeah, he'll get the undead that I allow him, after some discussion of what he may or may not have encountered. Its a pretty high powered game, and its only a one shot, so I'm not too worried about it, but I still have to do something to make sure that he doesn't get all the fun. I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with them when it comes to combat, so that the other blokes can get a chance to swing a sword or an axe. :smallsmile:

Person_Man
2007-04-17, 08:53 AM
When my players make new characters I don't care how powerful or weak they are, as long as they are relatively close in power to each other. As DM, you can always make your encounters more difficult. You just can't change the players' builds, so if one or two is always dominating and everyone else isn't contributing, you often have to let the characters re-build.

So I wouldn't argue with this player one way or another until everyone else was done building their PCs. Then explain the logic of your decision to charge him more or less xp and gold to do what he wants.

Tyger
2007-04-17, 08:59 AM
When my players make new characters I don't care how powerful or weak they are, as long as they are relatively close in power to each other. As DM, you can always make your encounters more difficult. You just can't change the players' builds, so if one or two is always dominating and everyone else isn't contributing, you often have to let the characters re-build.

So I wouldn't argue with this player one way or another until everyone else was done building their PCs. Then explain the logic of your decision to charge him more or less xp and gold to do what he wants.

True, but the problem here is that I already know the basics of the other characters, and none are even close to this level. THere's the Warblade/Rogue/Assassin who does great sneak attacks, but likely won't get to be at the front ranks of the combat with all those darned undead in the way. Then there's the Fighter(ish) Minotaur who can dish out a disgusting amount of damage, but won't have a chance because of all the damned undead in teh way. Last but not least there's the fallen-paladin/Blackguard/Griffon Rider (modified for evil) who might get in an attack, as he can fly above the undead, who are in the way. :)

This character is the only one that is presenting challenges in both the build (as I want them to play what they want, but...) and in me planning my game. I don't want to just wipe out the undead, as that defeats the purpose of his character and would really negatively impact upon his fun, but I also don't want to leave them all around, so that the others can have some fun too.

I've got a few tricks up my sleeve already, and I am hoping that I can work around enough situations that the whole party can have fun. Only time will tell though!:smalltongue:

Macrovore
2007-04-17, 09:48 AM
Yup, were he to make it to level 20 (if this one shot turns into a campaign for example) he would need to be the recipient of a True Ressurection spell, then become a lich, and re-apply his Spell-Stitched template at that time.
what's the point of that? their final lich ability doesn't actually make them a lich; it just gives them the undead type. the dread necro gets most of the lich abilities from the class levels. There's no point in ever rezzing just to get that feature.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:50 AM
Skeleton Archers *devil* :smallwink:

Giving the minotaur and warblade/rogue/assassins undead mounts (either boring mounts with animate undead)

Or if you want to get really interesting, nasty create undead bone/corpse Nightmares (note though with Create undead they aren't instantly under your control thus you will have to use rebuke attempt or Diplomacy to affect them). Bone and Corpse Creatures keep all the special attacks and special qualities of the creature including the Nightmare's Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) and Etherealness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm) which are at will (and also affect people who the nightmare's are touching)

Just because he has an army of undead doesn't mean he can't be a party player.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:53 AM
what's the point of that? their final lich ability doesn't actually make them a lich; it just gives them the undead type. the dread necro gets most of the lich abilities from the class levels. There's no point in ever rezzing just to get that feature.
Wrong, the final lich ability actually makes them a lich.


Craft Wondrous Item: At 19th level, the dread necromancer gains Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. This helps her prepare the phylactery required to become a lich.
Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery. A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature.
A 20th lvl Dread necromancer is a lich, it has a phylactery, if it is destroyed it regenerates just like a lich, a DN gets the lich's stat increases( Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2) at lvl 20.

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 09:58 AM
Wrong, the final lich ability actually makes them a lich.


A 20th lvl Dread necromancer is a lich, it has a phylactery, if it is destroyed it regenerates just like a lich, a DN gets the lich's stat increases( Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2) at lvl 20.

Read the last sentence of the last block you quoted, and remember the undead and humanoid categories are separate and distinct.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 10:01 AM
Read the last sentence of the last block you quoted, and remember the undead and humanoid categories are separate and distinct.

Once you true resurrect you will be humanoid and no longer undead from necropolitan.

That last sentence is so you don't do Dread Necromancer 20th ability with a class that can't get the lich template in the first place. For example Elans and Thri Keens can't become liches for an Elan is an abjurration and a Thri Keen is a monstrous humanoid.

If you are humanoid prior to the lvl up on DN 20 you get the Lich Template.

kamikasei
2007-04-17, 10:03 AM
Read the last sentence of the last block you quoted, and remember the undead and humanoid categories are separate and distinct.

Yes, I think that's Ramza's point.

He's countering the argument that it's not worth getting True Rez'd in order to gain the 20th-level lichdom benefits as a Necropolitan. The argument was that you gain all the benefits of lichdom gradually over the twenty levels of Dread Necromancer, so all you gain by actually becoming a lich at twentieth is the undead type, which a Necropolitan has. The problem with that is that you do gain additional benefits by undergoing the actual conversion to lich, which Ramza describes.

Hence Ramza's saying that you should get True Rez'd in order to undergo the become-a-lich ritual, since as a Necropolitan you aren't a valid recipient.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 10:06 AM
Yes, I think that's Ramza's point.

He's countering the argument that it's not worth getting True Rez'd in order to gain the 20th-level lichdom benefits as a Necropolitan. The argument was that you gain all the benefits of lichdom gradually over the twenty levels of Dread Necromancer, so all you gain by actually becoming a lich at twentieth is the undead type, which a Necropolitan has. The problem with that is that you do gain additional benefits by undergoing the actual conversion to lich, which Ramza describes.

Hence Ramza's saying that you should get True Rez'd in order to undergo the become-a-lich ritual, since as a Necropolitan you aren't a valid recipient.

Thank you, sometimes words escape me, thank you for putting it so well.

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 10:09 AM
Yes, I think that's Ramza's point.

He's countering the argument that it's not worth getting True Rez'd in order to gain the 20th-level lichdom benefits as a Necropolitan. The argument was that you gain all the benefits of lichdom gradually over the twenty levels of Dread Necromancer, so all you gain by actually becoming a lich at twentieth is the undead type, which a Necropolitan has. The problem with that is that you do gain additional benefits by undergoing the actual conversion to lich, which Ramza describes.

Hence Ramza's saying that you should get True Rez'd in order to undergo the become-a-lich ritual, since as a Necropolitan you aren't a valid recipient.

Okay, didn't quite connect all the lines here before posting, I've been up for way too long so I freely admit I messed up. According to the logic I was using, I'd be right, it's just that the logic was faulty.

Still, the dread necromancer class isn't the best choice for necropolitan, and if it weren't for the waived level adjustment, lich would not be worth getting resurrected for.

Assassinfox
2007-04-17, 10:10 AM
Seems kinda unfair that everyone EXCEPT humanoids get the short end of the stick if they want to go Dread Necromancer all 20 levels. It'd be like sticking around for 20 levels of monk and getting "We don't serve y'er kind around here! GET LOST!" instead of turning into an outsider.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-17, 10:18 AM
Seems kinda unfair that everyone EXCEPT humanoids get the short end of the stick if they want to go Dread Necromancer all 20 levels. It'd be like sticking around for 20 levels of monk and getting "We don't serve y'er kind around here! GET LOST!" instead of turning into an outsider.

...what do you think happens to Guardinal Monks?

kamikasei
2007-04-17, 10:18 AM
Still, the dread necromancer class isn't the best choice for necropolitan, and if it weren't for the waived level adjustment, lich would not be worth getting resurrected for.

I don't know; getting d12 hit die and free healing without having to spend a feat on Tomb-Tainted Soul seems like a good deal to me. Or do you mean that a necropolitan has better class options than DN, rather than that a DN has better race options than necropolitan?

What would give me pause is the cost of a once-per-day item of gentle repose... or would keeping yourself healed up with negative energy keep your body from deteriorating anyway? Hmm...

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 10:27 AM
Okay, didn't quite connect all the lines here before posting, I've been up for way too long so I freely admit I messed up. According to the logic I was using, I'd be right, it's just that the logic was faulty.

Still, the dread necromancer class isn't the best choice for necropolitan, and if it weren't for the waived level adjustment, lich would not be worth getting resurrected for.
Remember that DN Undead Mastery ability (the one that allows you to control more undead is (4+Cha)*Class Level)

But besides Undead Mastery there is little reason for a Necropolitan DN to stick around in DN after a while. Getting Lich at 20 isn't that big of deal, you should have multiple ways to resurrect yourself with no level loss at that level, and the stats gain and other marginal benefits you gain is not really worth it.

Once you have enough Undead you are happy controlling, from an optimization standpoint you should prestige out of Dread Necromancer.
From a personal standpoint as a player who is also doing things for flavor and optimization I stay the whole 20 lvls of DN though :smallwink:

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 10:30 AM
Seems kinda unfair that everyone EXCEPT humanoids get the short end of the stick if they want to go Dread Necromancer all 20 levels. It'd be like sticking around for 20 levels of monk and getting "We don't serve y'er kind around here! GET LOST!" instead of turning into an outsider.
This is because a normal lich can only be humanoid.



Creating A Lich

"Lich" is an acquired template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates) that can be added to any humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm#theLichsPhylactery).
A lich has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.



You are correct, it does suck.

Assassinfox
2007-04-17, 11:01 AM
I don't see why they can't just waive the humanoid requirements in this case.

Or, instead of saying "You're a lich", say "Your type changes to undead if it wasn't already, you gain some stats and turn resistance, and you now have a phylactery that must be destroyed to get rid of you permanently."

Otherwise, it'd be like giving Fighter or Cleric a feature at level 20 that says "You gain the paragon template, but only if you're a dragon." It pretty much says "Level 20 is USELESS! Go grab a PrC!"

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 11:20 AM
I don't see why they can't just waive the humanoid requirements in this case.

Or, instead of saying "You're a lich", say "Your type changes to undead if it wasn't already, you gain some stats and turn resistance, and you now have a phylactery that must be destroyed to get rid of you permanently."

Otherwise, it'd be like giving Fighter or Cleric a feature at level 20 that says "You gain the paragon template, but only if you're a dragon." It pretty much says "Level 20 is USELESS! Go grab a PrC!"
I agree, it is stupid, I can explain why they did it with DN, it is to be internally consistent.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-17, 11:27 AM
I don't see why they can't just waive the humanoid requirements in this case.

Or, instead of saying "You're a lich", say "Your type changes to undead if it wasn't already, you gain some stats and turn resistance, and you now have a phylactery that must be destroyed to get rid of you permanently."

Otherwise, it'd be like giving Fighter or Cleric a feature at level 20 that says "You gain the paragon template, but only if you're a dragon." It pretty much says "Level 20 is USELESS! Go grab a PrC!"

Tell that to Rogue 20.

Assassinfox
2007-04-17, 11:30 AM
Tell that to Rogue 20.

* giggles *

Never noticed that. I guess wizards is just upholding their hallowed traditions. :smalltongue:

Tyger
2007-04-17, 12:05 PM
What would give me pause is the cost of a once-per-day item of gentle repose... or would keeping yourself healed up with negative energy keep your body from deteriorating anyway? Hmm...

Well, I am reading the "natural healing" of the Necropolitan to mean that their bodies do not decay. We're going with a gaunt and pale look, but not a rotting zombie or dried dessicated husk either.

Person_Man
2007-04-17, 12:35 PM
Here's the Level Adjusted Lich (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a). Your PC might find it useful.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 12:47 PM
Here's the Level Adjusted Lich (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a). Your PC might find it useful.
DN gets the lich template for free, with no LA. (Similar to how Dragon Disciple gets the Half Dragon Template for free)

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-17, 12:48 PM
Ugh... I had a similar problem when we started a high level no races barred campaign but made the half-iron golem pay for his own arm.

No, you're not being unfair. You're not being kind either though.

Tyger
2007-04-17, 01:01 PM
Ugh... I had a similar problem when we started a high level no races barred campaign but made the half-iron golem pay for his own arm.

No, you're not being unfair. You're not being kind either though.

I'd rather be fair to all the players, than kind to one and unfair to the others. But then I'm known to be a bit naff. :smallsmile:

Arbitrarity
2007-04-17, 08:24 PM
Iron half-golem..?

Make him pay. +12 Str, +4 con, +11 NA? Yeah.

Person_Man
2007-04-17, 11:01 PM
DN gets the lich template for free, with no LA. (Similar to how Dragon Disciple gets the Half Dragon Template for free)

Yes, but they don't get full transformation until 20th level, and the DN spell selection sucks. Using the level adjusted Lich template, your PC could give up only one or two caster levels, gain most of the abilities he wants, and gain most of the Lich-ness he wants, while having a full spell selection and access to special abilities from a PrC. I apologize if I wasn't clear about that.

Jasdoif
2007-04-18, 12:02 AM
I don't see why they can't just waive the humanoid requirements in this case.If they actually had a bunch of lich templates for other creature types, like the Monster Manual suggests, it'd go a long way towards fixing this. The only other lich template that applies to a type that I've seen, though, is the dracolich template in the Draconomicon.

Assassinfox
2007-04-18, 01:07 AM
If they actually had a bunch of lich templates for other creature types, like the Monster Manual suggests, it'd go a long way towards fixing this. The only other lich template that applies to a type that I've seen, though, is the dracolich template in the Draconomicon.

And the Lichfiend in Libris Mortis.

Jasdoif
2007-04-18, 01:30 AM
Oh yeah, forgot about that one. OK, so that's...dragons, humanoids and outsiders we've seen lich templates for. Oh, and mind flayers (Alhoon in Lords of Madness), but that one doesn't apply to a type in general, it's specifically for mind flayers.