need help with druid concept

[Orni]

Hi guys,
I'm a new Pathfinder player from Germany :D

So - I was thinking about the druid class (since it's my favorite class in pretty much every videogame) and came up with the following concept:

- neutral evil
- worships Pharasma
- has next to no empathy (would be diagnosed as a psychopath in modern medicine)
- therefore low charisma, due to struggles with social norms
- regards necromancy, and any means to defy death, as abnormal
- sees himself as a force of balance/nature and tries to hunt down all undead creatures
- always tries to be on top of things, or flees
- has no regard for love or friendship, other than mutually beneficial companionships

there are also a few points I'd like to include in the character, but these are optional:

- uses a scythe
- has a large snake as a companion (that incapacitates victims)
- likes to morph into an insignificant creature to surprise his victim from up close
- uses strong poisons


my problem is - I don't really know wether or not this would be a viable way to play a druid?
also, what ability scores (20 point buy) and feats should I focus on?
basically - I need help with translating my concept into a viable build, or modify it in a way so it becomes viable.

thanks guys :)

[Red Fel]

Hi guys,
I'm a new Pathfinder player from Germany :D

Hi there! Welcome to the Playground!


my problem is - I don't really know wether or not this would be a viable way to play a druid?
also, what ability scores (20 point buy) and feats should I focus on?
basically - I need help with translating my concept into a viable build, or modify it in a way so it becomes viable.

First off, Druid is a very powerful class. There are many viable ways to build a Druid. That said, there is something about your build that I think threatens its viability, and I think you should address that first: Why is this character in the party?

Part of the problem with playing Evil characters generally, and admitted psychopaths in particular, is that they have no reason to play nice. You've acknowledged that he has no regard for love or friendship. You've said that he either wants to be the best, or to run away. You've got be extremely careful, then; as a rule, if a character doesn't offer the party a reason to keep him around, they're under no obligation to do so. (Even if he does, they can still get rid of him. Parties are funny like that.) So be careful to ensure that this works for the other players at the table.

Now, onto the build. The Pathfinder Druid has three primary class features, and they are: Spellcasting Animal companion Wild shape
I'll look at the third one first, since it's the biggest defining feature of the class: Unless you wild shape into forms with hands, you're not going to get much use out of that scythe. A Druid's main time spent in melee combat is spent in wild shape, and most of the forms you can access (at least early on) can't wield manufactured weapons. Yes, it's nice to have that around when you're not a bear riding a bear summoning more bears, but wild shape does more for you. So keep that in mind.

Onto the build. Treantmonk has a very thorough handbook in three parts (part 1 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-1), part 2 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-2), part 3 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-3)) on the Druid. There is another good guide here (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Y_uvQ0fgmLR9aW-OoAD_rbI-3iMJVQmxifLpA1s5EXg). I suggest you read them.

Now, considering your emphasis on snakes, poison, and death, you might consider playing a Nagaji (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-nagaji). Nagaji do have a bonus to Charisma, but having a good Charisma score doesn't mean you're a pleasant person; it means you have a strong, forceful personality. You can still be socially awkward or cold and distant. Another advantage to the Nagaji is that they can take the Naga Aspirant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-nagaji/naga-aspirant-druid-naga) Druid archetype, which gives them poison powers and allows them to wild shape into a gigantic terrifying serpent-monster. Alternatively, a Serpent Shaman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/serpent-shaman) Druid also gets snake and poison powers. Another option, if you want to emphasize the death-and-decay side of things, is to go with a Blight Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/blight-druid).

These are a few ideas to get you started. Once you know more about what you want to do (e.g. whether you want to focus on melee, spellcasting, or summoning), you can ask for more specific suggestions.

[Orni]

thank you - I really appreciate your help clarifying things and even linking them, big thx :smallsmile:

I've already read through Treantmonks handbook - it helped me understand the class a lot better

I know evil characters aren't easy to play concerning their motivations (relating to the party). however - the DM already told us that the big villian of the campaign is going to be some kind of necromancer or undead himself, so my druid would have enough reason to join a party that's trying to defeat him. the other characters might not like my druid (since he truly doesn't care about them), but this means they either deal with it and simply work together or try to get rid of him (which I believe the DM will be able to resolve in some way)

the Nagaji race looks very interesting, however it seems the Naga Aspirant is based around worshiping Naga gods - which wouldn't be compatible with my concept. but even without the archtype I like the Nagaji race for their fluff and the Spit Venom feat. I might play one - if the DM approves

I already figured the scythe isn't going to do much - that was an optional idea anyway (as are the poisons)

so I guess I want a melee-shapeshifting druid, however it seems most builds are centered around getting lots of primary attacks (claws/bites) to multiply damage - which most often results in lions/bears/and so forth. would a serpentine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/snake) creature or something like a bat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bat) be viable as a melee druid?

/edit:
also, what's about the idea of morphing into small vermin like (or other insignificant) creatures to get close to an enemy and surprise him - would this work somehow?

[Red Fel]

so I guess I want a melee-shapeshifting druid, however it seems most builds are centered around getting lots of primary attacks (claws/bites) to multiply damage - which most often results in lions/bears/and so forth. would a serpentine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/snake) creature or something like a bat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bat) be viable as a melee druid?

Well, first off, you should be focusing on fun first, optimization second. Druids are pretty powerful, and being slightly un-optimized won't hurt you too much in the long run. So pick things that are fun for you, first and foremost.

Now, on to making your melee Druid functional. Obviously, Natural Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/natural-spell---final) is mandatory for you, as it is for all Druids; just because you're in wild shape a lot doesn't mean you should ignore one of your primary class features, spellcasting.

As for melee Druids, you are correct in that the primary goals of wild shape are to enable you to take a hit and deal lots of damage. As an animal, that means having lots of natural attacks, which snakes and bats sadly lack. Don't despair, however - wild shape is also good for utility, and bats are great for that, being able to fly and all. That said, if you absolutely want to turn into a great big snake, you could consider the Powerful Shape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/powerful-shape) feat, which lets you be treated as a size larger for abilities like Grab.

As for changing into smaller creatures, yes, it's possible. You'd have to wait until level 6, at which point you can turn into a tiny animal, which would give you a +8 to Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size). Note, however, that you could only change into an animal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Animal) at that point, not into vermin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Vermin) - which are a different category of creature altogether. Druids generally cannot transform into vermin at all (but see the Desert Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/desert-druid), which is an exception.)

But short version? Yes, you want more natural weapons if you plan to be powerful in melee. Alternatively, you could simply use wild shape to be adequate in melee, and focus on other aspects of your build.

[Orni]

Thx, I've outlined the following build:

Neutral Evil Human Druid (20 point buy)

Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

Traits: Undead Slayer (Pharasma), Reactionary

Animal Companion: Snake (Constrictor)

1st level: Toughness, Dodge
3rd level: Power Attack
5th level: Natural Spell
7th level: Cleave

Haven't thought further - but I guess that's going to be ok.
I'll be slithering along my companion and use combat maneuvers on my enemies - maybe grapple (although I don't really understand the grappling rules yet)

[Red Fel]

Thx, I've outlined the following build:

Neutral Evil Human Druid (20 point buy)

Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

Traits: Undead Slayer (Pharasma), Reactionary

Animal Companion: Snake (Constrictor)

1st level: Toughness, Dodge
3rd level: Power Attack
5th level: Natural Spell
7th level: Cleave

Haven't thought further - but I guess that's going to be ok.
I'll be slithering along my companion and use combat maneuvers on my enemies - maybe grapple (although I don't really understand the grappling rules yet)

Toughness is a terrible waste of a feat. Really terrible. It's pretty much one of the worst possible feats - it gives you an absolutely negligible bonus to HP. Trade it out for something. Dodge is similarly underwhelming - a bit better, but not great. I'd suggest looking back over those Druid handbooks for better options. At higher levels, I'd consider something like Eldritch Claws (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/eldritch-claws) - remember that although the feat says "claws" in the name, it applies to all natural weapons, including unarmed strikes, slams, and bite attacks.

As for the grapple rules, you can find them here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple). It's really just a contested roll - your CMB plus modifiers against the target's CMD plus modifiers - followed by the actual grapple itself, which is admittedly underwhelming. Remember also that, thanks to Freedom of Movement and various teleportation effects, grappling spellcasters becomes almost worthless at later levels.

[Hiro Quester]

Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8



Wisdom is by far you most important stat. And your strength is replaced when in wildshape by the strength of your wildshape form.

Strength can be your dump stat, unless you need it for a feat prerequisite and if you do, maybe that's not the feat for you). Power attack needs 13 str. That's high enough.

The handbooks recommend this as the priority order of your stats: Wis, Dex, Con, Int, Cha, Str.

You need to make your wisdom18 at least. With 14 you won't be casting higher level spells.

[daryen]

This is Pathfinder. Wildshape does not repackaged physical stats; it only modifies them. I figure the minimum for strength is 14 or 16. That way your wildshape modifiers will bump you up into some nice bonuses.

The absolute minimum starting Wisdom for a Druid or Cleric is 15. At 15 and dedicating every stat increase into Wisdom, you will be able to get all spell levels at the correct time.

So, at a minimum, I suggest moving your racial bonus from Strength to Wisdom.

[Geddy2112]

Dodgeis similarly underwhelming - a bit better, but not great.
Dodge does give access to some better feats in the tree, but only go down this route if you plan on taking mobility etc, otherwise I agree.



The absolute minimum starting Wisdom for a Druid or Cleric is 15. At 15 and dedicating every stat increase into Wisdom, you will be able to get all spell levels at the correct time.

So, at a minimum, I suggest moving your racial bonus from Strength to Wisdom.
For a wild shape and bash druid strength is very important,and at low levels it makes your scythe hit with extra oomph. If you are really cutting it close, you can get away with a 13 in wisdom, but you need to juice it with every stat increase and will need a headband of wisdom to cast your spells.

As far as the rest of your build, neutral evil psychopath is fine so long as you are not axe murdering the party in their sleep. So long as you see it as mutually beneficial(all of these other people want to help me hunt undead, and more numbers means less chance I die doing it) you can get along just fine. You don't have to be best friends, just find common ground.

The constrictor will be good throughout the game, and at higher levels you can dispel off freedom of movement and similar effects if you really want the grab.

For the undead slayer trait, it only applies to weapon damage rolls, and you probably wont be using your scythe much/at all past the first few levels. Ask your DM if they will say it applies to all damage rolls, or at least all melee damage rolls.

[Orni]

thx a lot - after considering your suggestions I've decided to not play this druid

I'll probably play something "simpler", since I guess you're right considering the problems regardings evil characters

thanks anyway - great community !!