How is Gluing Things Legendary?

[Gritmonger]

I page through the magic items in the Dungeon Master's Guide... and I come across Sovereign Glue - Legendary. Legendary?! Well, Universal Solvent shouldn't be - it's used to get out of spider webs and... Legendary!??!

When did a bottle of glue become the equivalent of an Annihilating Sphere? Do I even ask about Unguent of Timelessness - it's not there anymore, is it an artifact level item?

Any opinions or actual responses from the developers on why this change? Both of these used to be some of my go-to items for alchemist characters, along with oil of slipperiness.

Do you have to boil down a Tarrasque to get the glue, hence why it costs so much and takes the dedication of fifty-two years to make?

[Xetheral]

I page through the magic items in the Dungeon Master's Guide... and I come across Sovereign Glue - Legendary. Legendary?! Well, Universal Solvent shouldn't be - it's used to get out of spider webs and... Legendary!??!

When did a bottle of glue become the equivalent of an Annihilating Sphere? Do I even ask about Unguent of Timelessness - it's not there anymore, is it an artifact level item?

Any opinions or actual responses from the developers on why this change? Both of these used to be some of my go-to items for alchemist characters, along with oil of slipperiness.

Do you have to boil down a Tarrasque to get the glue, hence why it costs so much and takes the dedication of fifty-two years to make?

"Questioning magic item rarity leads to perplexity. Perplexity leads to frustration. Frustration leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Alternately: "Do not question the rarities of magic items, for they were made by Wizards(R) who are subtle and quick to anger."

(Incidentally, I'm pretty sure we can combine the originals of both quotes to "prove" that Wizards are all darksiders.)

[SharkForce]

we have an unfortunate situation where magic item usefulness is not directly tied in any way to cost or rarity.

consider, for example, the cloak of elvenkind. it may as well make you invisible unless you attack. and it's uncommon. an ioun stone that removes the need to eat and drink? rare.

my advice is to just ignore the rarity rules. they're not good for much of anything.

[Slipperychicken]

If crazy-glue is legendary, then rolls of duct tape and cans of WD-40 must be artifact-level.

For a fun comparison, brooms of at-will 50 fly speed are uncommon.

[Gritmonger]

It is more likely for a party to find a ninth-level spell scroll than a container of sovereign glue!

What does this stuff do that I'm not aware of?

Jam an eversmoking bottle to the back of a broom of flying so you can write "Surrender Dorothy?" Also, how the heck did the witch even know how to spell "Dorothy?" Is it a common name in Oz?

Glue an Immovable Rod to a Broom of Flying so you can "park" it anywhere?

[Malifice]

Unbreakable glue has some pretty amazeballs applications though.

[Xetheral]

Do you have to boil down a Tarrasque to get the glue, hence why it costs so much and takes the dedication of fifty-two years to make?

Sovereign Glue is, of course, made from Sovereigns. In a lawless area they can be quite rare. Fortunately, in a kingdom with clearly-defined rules of succession and no mandatory mourning period, Sovereigns are a renewable resource.

[Dontdestroyme]

Let's just say.... A little goes a long way.

[Spojaz]

Sovereign glue is probably the most prone to abuse magic item in the game, especially when you have other magic items. Tarrasque + immovable rod is a lot less scary than one that can turn it's head. Your spell requires verbal components? Too bad I glued your jaws together lich!

[Malifice]

Sovereign glue is probably the most prone to abuse magic item in the game, especially when you have other magic items. Tarrasque + immovable rod is a lot less scary than one that can turn it's head. Your spell requires verbal components? Too bad I glued your jaws together lich!

Yeah. Immovable rod dipped in soveriegn glue makes for a fun thrown weapon.

[Forum Explorer]

Sovereign Glue is, of course, made from Sovereigns. In a lawless area they can be quite rare. Fortunately, in a kingdom with clearly-defined rules of succession and no mandatory mourning period, Sovereigns are a renewable resource.

Best answer. :smallbiggrin:


Usage wise, it's clearly because making something stuck to another thing permanently without them getting a save is far to OP. Want to one hit KO the BBEG? Simply glue his face shut! Capture a rampaging dragon? Glue his feet to the ground! You buddy got his arm chopped off? Glue it back on!

[ruy343]

The fact that it requires a setting time is what keeps it from being too abuseable in combat.

However, it can certainly be used in a creative fashion, which makes it a very potent item indeed. In fact, it's how you combine magic items in unforeseen ways that make the DM cringe.

[Camman1984]

Sovereign glue is why one of the dragon npc's in my character now sports a skeletal half orc rider, the previous owner of that skeleton thought it was a good idea to glue himself to the dragon as a mount, the water breathing dragon ;)

[Malifice]

Sovereign glue is why one of the dragon npc's in my character now sports a skeletal half orc rider, the previous owner of that skeleton thought it was a good idea to glue himself to the dragon as a mount, the water breathing dragon ;)

Jesus. You would think the Dragon would file the skeleton down.

[Camman1984]

Its a trophy :)

[Ralanr]

I see it as an item to start a quest.

"Your master, a great and powerful wizard who is jokingly known for his clumsiness has accidentally stuck himself to the floor when trying to clean up the sovereign glue. Only the universal solvent may free him, but it is in the hands of his bitter rival Harithok, another powerful wizard that lives across the land. Unwilling to allow his rival to see his miserable state, he sends you to gather a group of adventurers and attain the solvent. By any means necessary."

Ignoring plot holes, this sounds like a fun and funny quest.

[Beleriphon]

I see it as an item to start a quest.

"Your master, a great and powerful wizard who is jokingly known for his clumsiness has accidentally stuck himself to the floor when trying to clean up the sovereign glue. Only the universal solvent may free him, but it is in the hands of his bitter rival Harithok, another powerful wizard that lives across the land. Unwilling to allow his rival to see his miserable state, he sends you to gather a group of adventurers and attain the solvent. By any means necessary."



Thus why the equivilent of a tyvek suit is recommended so that you just let the stuff set and rip yourself out. :smallamused:

[Sindeloke]

Ok, gluing a lich's mouth I can see, but Big T? You guys have permissive DMs. Given the thing's regenerative properties, there's no reason why that would slow it down longer than it takes to tear that chunk of skin out of its body. I mean, a human can get off an icy flagpole that way and none of us have more than 20 Str.

Solid quest idea, though, I may steal that as well.

[JAL_1138]

Ok, gluing a lich's mouth I can see, but Big T? You guys have permissive DMs. Given the thing's regenerative properties, there's no reason why that would slow it down longer than it takes to tear that chunk of skin out of its body. I mean, a human can get off an icy flagpole that way and none of us have more than 20 Str.

Solid quest idea, though, I may steal that as well.

In 2e it only regenerated 1HP/round; in 5e it doesn't regenerate except by Plot.

Toss the phial in the Tarrasque's mouth and wait a while for it to die of sepsis from burst intestines, thirst from sealed œsophagus, etc.; maybe you'll get lucky and it'll glue its teeth together too. In any case, Wish it dead while it's down.

[Rhaegar14]

On the subject of the Tarrasque, the Immovable Rod can be moved with a DC 30 Strength check. I don't actually have a copy of the Monster Manual on hand, can he make that reliably/effortlessly?

[Gritmonger]

I guess I'm wondering like I would about a "No Riding Horses on Premisis" sign put up at a city hall.

What event precipitated this?

What, in all of the development of D&D NEXT/5th Edition, caused them to look at Sovereign Glue and go "Yep, totally on par with a Holy Avenger, the Annihilating Sphere, the Robe of the Archmagi..."

What happened? And further, what happened with that to precipitate them next going to look at Universal Solvent and go "Yes, that too..." Particularly because "Universal Solvent" used to be relatively cheap (around 50 gp) - did they have to do it so a person with Sovereign Glue didn't feel like a chump the next day when somebody undid his work for the cost of a healing potion?

[Boci]

On the subject of the Tarrasque, the Immovable Rod can be moved with a DC 30 Strength check. I don't actually have a copy of the Monster Manual on hand, can he make that reliably/effortlessly?

Nope, 30 strength and no other bonuses to a strength check. So unless I am missing something, 5% chance.

[JAL_1138]

Perhaps its rarity is just that--rarity, not a measure of power. Nobody's made much of the stuff, for whatever reason. Formula was lost, perhaps, like Greek Fire was lost (until we sort of duplicated the result, though not the actual stuff, with flamethrower fuel, napalm, etc., centuries later). The bottle the players find is the last few drops anywhere in the world of the once-common stuff that's holding all those ancient fortresses and tombs of some fallen empire together after all these countless millennia, while other, younger civilizations have crumbled to dust and ruins. So it's priceless beyond measure because of that, even if it's pretty much just a bottle of really good glue.

[Xetheral]

Perhaps its rarity is just that--rarity, not a measure of power. Nobody's made much of the stuff, for whatever reason. Formula was lost, perhaps, like Greek Fire was lost (until we sort of duplicated the result, though not the actual stuff, with flamethrower fuel, napalm, etc., centuries later). The bottle the players find is the last few drops anywhere in the world of the once-common stuff that's holding all those ancient fortresses and tombs of some fallen empire together after all these countless millennia, while other, younger civilizations have crumbled to dust and ruins. So it's priceless beyond measure because of that, even if it's pretty much just a bottle of really good glue.

That doesn't explain why it would take over 50 years to make another dose even after you figure out the formula.

[Ziegander]

That doesn't explain why it would take over 50 years to make another dose even after you figure out the formula.

If it's Legendary isn't it impossible to craft? Aren't there not formulas of Legendary items?

[Xetheral]

If it's Legendary isn't it impossible to craft? Aren't there not formulas of Legendary items?

Hmm good point. I have it in my mind that legendary takes 50 years to craft... but maybe that's very rare? I'm AFB and don't recall.

[JAL_1138]

Perhaps the formula relied on something that is now rare and finicky, like how the Spellforge or whatever it was called in LMoP that was used to quickly and reliably make magic weapons doesn't work properly anymore since the ley line drifted away from it. It used to work simply and easily, but now takes a frankly ludicrous amount of time and careful manipulation to duplicate.

[SharkForce]

if rarity only determined rarity as opposed to also determining crafting time and cost, it would make sense. i mean, there probably isn't a huge demand for expensive magical glue, and as a result, there probably aren't a ton of people making it.

unfortunately, rarity does determine those things as well (and frankly probably does an awful job of actually indicating which items are going to be rare - honestly, i dunno who decided that wizards and priests are going to make tons of items for warriors and rogues, and next to nothing for themselves, but somewhere along the way that decision was obviously made).

[archaeo]

Part of me seriously thinks that putting sovereign glue at legendary rarity is more a joke than a serious design decision. That said,


That doesn't explain why it would take over 50 years to make another dose even after you figure out the formula.

If I had to, I'd simply handwave it as "items like this are extremely difficult to make if you haven't spent you entire career researching magical item creation, which you guys haven't had time to do, because you've been very busy saving the world." This is basically how I'd handwave all RAW crafting rules: it takes such a long time for PCs because none of them really specialize in artificing at that level, even the UA Artificer subclass.


unfortunately, rarity does determine those things as well (and frankly probably does an awful job of actually indicating which items are going to be rare - honestly, i dunno who decided that wizards and priests are going to make tons of items for warriors and rogues, and next to nothing for themselves, but somewhere along the way that decision was obviously made).

From a mechanics standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to have a bunch of magical weapons: it serves as a good avenue for introducing interesting choices for martial classes. The system more or less fills the design space for magic-boosting items anyway.

From a narrative standpoint, it seems pretty easy to say that most casters capable of making magic items already had a) magic they could cast themselves and b) easy ways to make that magic into a form that others could use via wands. Making items "for themselves" isn't super necessary; they are already magical, and can cast magic.

And rarity does a fine job of indicating rareness; it just doesn't do so with any real granularity, in line with the designers' stated mission to simplify mechanics for ease of use. They work fine if you're not concerned with perfect verisimilitude, anyway, which is the only angle where the system really falls down. Otherwise, it's quick, it's simple, and it gets the job done.

(also, the random item tables work pretty well as an indication of rarity with more granularity, if you dive through them. I suggested in another thread that you could use them pretty easily to set up a basic price list as well.)

[Gritmonger]

I still don't get it though.

Rarity you could simulate easily enough. There are some objects that don't fit with the world I'm running and I would simply not have in existence, rarity be damned. There are some I want to have a mystery about them - it wouldn't change cost but could change availability.

But why make Sovereign Glue Legendary? It was some 2,400 gold pieces per ounce in the old system, which would be 16,800 gold pieces for a "full" bottle - it's not legendary even at that price. It's still on the table of "Minor" wondrous items in previous incarnations of Dungeons and Dragons. Universal Solvent was one of the cheapest Minor wondrous items you could get at fifty gold pieces, and now it's Legendary as well. That's quite the jump.

Which means you don't (or shouldn't) see it until seventeenth level...

I keep thinking there has to be a reason. Some game-breaking reason why suddenly glue is one of the rarest items in the game, along with a solvent that used to be among the cheapest items in the game, and was the go-to for getting people out of spider webs.

Was there an incident in Adventurers League in early testing that ended up with Kobold levels of overpowered abuse at low levels?

I mean, a bottle of glue now ranks above a Mirror of Life Trapping!

[SharkForce]

From a narrative standpoint, it seems pretty easy to say that most casters capable of making magic items already had a) magic they could cast themselves and b) easy ways to make that magic into a form that others could use via wands. Making items "for themselves" isn't super necessary; they are already magical, and can cast magic.

And rarity does a fine job of indicating rareness; it just doesn't do so with any real granularity, in line with the designers' stated mission to simplify mechanics for ease of use. They work fine if you're not concerned with perfect verisimilitude, anyway, which is the only angle where the system really falls down. Otherwise, it's quick, it's simple, and it gets the job done.

(also, the random item tables work pretty well as an indication of rarity with more granularity, if you dive through them. I suggested in another thread that you could use them pretty easily to set up a basic price list as well.)

- wands only make thief rogues better at using magic (and only at high levels). otherwise, they generally speaking require attunement by someone who could have cast the spell anyways.
- it's fine for a wizard to think "how can i help my friend out a little?". it doesn't make sense that the same wizard never thought "how can i make myself better at what i do?". except warlocks. apparently they think about that sorta thing, because pact rods are amazing for them, but even then they pretty much just stopped at 1 item.

i have no problem with their being an abundance of stuff like winged boots (wizards like no-concentration flight just as much as, or more than, anyone else). i just don't think it makes sense that magic weapons are by far the most common type of magic item in existence when the people who can make them are generally speaking the people who are the worst at using them. at least armour i can make some sense of (warlocks, clerics, bards, and druids all wear armour, leaving only wizards and sorcerers, and multiclass versions of those sometimes will wear armour anyways). but why are there a bajillion magical longswords and barely any spell-boosting items in existence? why are there swords that inflict bonus fire damage, but no wizard ever thought that it would be a good idea to boost their cantrips in the same way (and also, why can they boost the damage of a sword but not a cantrip with the +1 items?)

it just irritates me that apparently for thousands of years of history, apparently there has been a massive trend for casters to be completely selfless in making magic items.

[Ghost Nappa]

Nope, 30 strength and no other bonuses to a strength check. So unless I am missing something, 5% chance.


I still don't get it though.

But why make Sovereign Glue Legendary? It was some 2,400 gold pieces per ounce in the old system, which would be 16,800 gold pieces for a "full" bottle - it's not legendary even at that price. It's still on the table of "Minor" wondrous items in previous incarnations of Dungeons and Dragons. Universal Solvent was one of the cheapest Minor wondrous items you could get at fifty gold pieces, and now it's Legendary as well. That's quite the jump.

Which means you don't (or shouldn't) see it until seventeenth level...

I keep thinking there has to be a reason. Some game-breaking reason why suddenly glue is one of the rarest items in the game, along with a solvent that used to be among the cheapest items in the game, and was the go-to for getting people out of spider webs.

Was there an incident in Adventurers League in early testing that ended up with Kobold levels of overpowered abuse at low levels?

I mean, a bottle of glue now ranks above a Mirror of Life Trapping!

Because a smart player can throw a jar of it into the mouth of the strongest monster in the MM and shut its mouth shut with it only breaking free 5% of the time. That is a creature that has THE HIGHEST STRENGTH POSSIBLE in the game.

Literally everything else is going to be unable to break free except by the Solvent or Wish.

If you have to ask, "Why is this Legendary?" it's because your mind hasn't figured out the level of shenanigans you can cause with actually unbreakable bonds.

Two "lovebirds" fighting? Glue them at the hip.
A sculpture breaks? Add a drop and place the pieces back together.
Some guy giving you a hard time? Glue him to the wall and call him scarecrow.

The stuff you can do with adhesives like tape and glue is crazy. Have you ever watched Mythbusters?

[Ralanr]

There is the pearl of power and staffs that require caster attunement.

Otherwise I think casters at the level it takes to create magic items are so self assured in their magical might that they don't think they need to rely on magic items.

Edit: at least in fiction anyway.

[Gritmonger]

Because a smart player can throw a jar of it into the mouth of the strongest monster in the MM and shut its mouth shut with it only breaking free 5% of the time. That is a creature that has THE HIGHEST STRENGTH POSSIBLE in the game.

Literally everything else is going to be unable to break free except by the Solvent or Wish.

If you have to ask, "Why is this Legendary?" it's because your mind hasn't figured out the level of shenanigans you can cause with actually unbreakable bonds.

Two "lovebirds" fighting? Glue them at the hip.
A sculpture breaks? Add a drop and place the pieces back together.
Some guy giving you a hard time? Glue him to the wall and call him scarecrow.

The stuff you can do with adhesives like tape and glue is crazy. Have you ever watched Mythbusters?

Right, except while the Glue has been elevated to Legendary, apparently its curing time was too short, so it's been extended to a full minute (or ten rounds).

And if you glued an immovable rod to the Tarrasque - you would have to hold it in place for ten rounds, and then hope that the Tarrasque didn't simply rip off that one square foot of its own hide to come after you.

And that still doesn't explain why the Universal Solvent is Legendary - Oil of Etherialness is two steps below Legendary (it's only rare), but is just as good for removing Sovereign Glue. More so - because that's not the only use it has.

[Xetheral]

it just irritates me that apparently for thousands of years of history, apparently there has been a massive trend for casters to be completely selfless in making magic items.

I'd suggest it's the result of a specialist economy. The magic item crafters mainly aren't adventurers or in other occupations where they're at risk. Instead, they're employed to make gear for those whose occupations require every last edge to maximize their chances of coming home.

If magical ability is somewhat rare, and willingness to face risk is distributed similarly to our own society, then the number of casters likely to ever be in combat could be vanishingly small, resulting in little-to-no demand for damage-increasing wands and other magic-user oriented combat gear.

[SharkForce]

I'd suggest it's the result of a specialist economy. The magic item crafters mainly aren't adventurers or in other occupations where they're at risk. Instead, they're employed to make gear for those whose occupations require every last edge to maximize their chances of coming home.

If magical ability is somewhat rare, and willingness to face risk is distributed similarly to our own society, then the number of casters likely to ever be in combat could be vanishingly small, resulting in little-to-no demand for damage-increasing wands and other magic-user oriented combat gear.

that still only makes sense if there are not also adventuring casters.

furthermore, that doesn't explain why there are more magic weapons than there are items that, say, cast at-will prestidigitation, or allow you to cast an extra fabricate per day, or boost your ability to research spells, or give you a permanent unseen servant. plus, they most likely still have to worry about enemies from time to time, and there are plenty of things that would be useful to an adventurer as well as to a spellcaster that stays at home all the time.

further, that ignores that many casters will, almost by default, need combat enhancements. i mean, there aren't going to be an awful lot of priests of torm that are just sitting on their butts with no need to ever go out into the world and right injustices, and there *really* aren't going to be a lot of priests of cyric that aren't going to benefit greatly from combat enhancements, even if it's only for "political" use (ie dealing with other priests of cyric trying to kill them), never mind that they kinda want to subject everyone else to their will. then consider all the warlocks, most of whom have likely made a pact that expects them to do something, druids that must protect their domains, wild magic sorcerers who probably don't have much choice but to go on adventures (who else is gonna hang around someone who might blow you all up some day?). even looking at NPCs and monsters, generally speaking they can expect to have to deal with threats from time to time.

[archaeo]

snip

It's also worth remembering that the list of magic items in the DMG is probably not an exhaustive catalog of every magical item in the history of any given world.

But I don't think it's very important, in any case. If this is your stumbling block, the fact that the fake magic item economy is not strictly realistic in a game where you literally can cause meteors to fall from the sky and kill hundreds of dudes, then there's not much else to say, is there?

[Boci]

But I don't think it's very important, in any case. If this is your stumbling block, the fact that the fake magic item economy is not strictly realistic in a game where you literally can cause meteors to fall from the sky and kill hundreds of dudes, then there's not much else to say, is there?

The fact that magic exists in a setting does not mean anything goes "because magic". Lord of the Rings had magic, I still would have found it questionable if the entire army of Minas Tirith all had magical armour.

Saying "Economy is hard to simulate realistically at the best of times, and even harder with magical items where the balance of the game can often depend on how accessible they are" is a valid point. "You can cast spells, therefor nothing has to make sense" is not.

[archaeo]

The fact that magic exists in a setting does not mean anything goes "because magic". Lord of the Rings had magic, I still would have found it questionable if the entire army of Minas Tirith all had magical armour.

Why? It would take Tolkein several thousand words to say it, but a skilled storyteller can justify most things with a bit of narrative. If Minas Tirith's crazy armor made the conflict pointless, of course, there'd be no need to tell the story, so you'd end up talking about how the forces of Mordor have developed anti-armor weaponry, and so on and so forth.

My point is that in a fantasy setting, it is trivial to simply make up an explanation for something you want to happen. Now, the difference between a good story and a bad story is how good one is at making those things up, and choosing what to make up based on the dramatic/comedic potential, sure. But it doesn't really change the fact that, absent any kind of real constraints, a fantasy storyteller is limited only by their imagination and their desire to tell a good story.


Saying "Economy is hard to simulate realistically at the best of times, and even harder with magical items where the balance of the game can often depend on how accessible they are" is a valid point. "You can cast spells, therefor nothing has to make sense" is not.

When a "problem" can be corrected by simply telling the story of the game in an ever-so-slightly-different way, it doesn't seem like much of a problem to me. Your mileage may vary. I don't think a ruleset exists that can honestly provide a perfectly justified setting for every player; given that, we should take the opportunity to tailor settings and their trappings, such as their economies, to our liking.

[Boci]

But you didn't offer a good or a bad explanation for the points SharkForce raised. You handwaived them aside with "you can cast spells therefor you shouldn't be complaining".

[Ralanr]

But you didn't offer a good or a bad explanation for the points SharkForce raised. You handwaived them aside with "you can cast spells therefor you shouldn't be complaining".

To be fair, spells are incredibly powerful.

There are spell caster items. But they usually focus on magical versatility than damage, kinda like how spells are powerful. Sure you have damaging spells, but you also have a lot of crowd control spells.

A lot of magic staffs have charges for magical effects. I've only seen one magic staff that's meant for monks. Even the staff of power, which can do melee damage is wizard and sorc attunement (AFB. Though I am sure).

Two magic flying items. A bunch of wands. Figurines of power, sphere of annihilation, iron flask, all items from Vecna (which are artifacts but it kind of applies).

Casters are versatile, their items follow this.

[Beleriphon]

I like to look at the DMG magic item tables more as set of fun things from ages past. Sure the rare wizard can replicate such feats now, but in ages past mighty smiths could pound out magic swords and the like. Or maybe they were made on a magic anvil that imbued them with powers according to their creator's will, and the creator merely had to attune themself to the anvil to forge weapons worthy of mighty heroes!

[SharkForce]

those aren't caster items, those are anyone items... though i agree that casters would certainly want them, that isn't really a caster saying "how can i make my spellcasting better". they certainly make more sense to be common than magic swords and armour though.

what i'm talking about, though, is that there's nothing to let them shunt concentration onto another character (a familiar, perhaps?), for example. nothing that protects them from silence spells. nothing that lets them target spells around corners (and when you're experimenting, this sort of thing seems extremely useful; you can experiment with a spell without needing to be in the LOS of the effect). there's nothing that lets you get extra benefit when casting a certain spell or that is designed to benefit in beyond-normal ways from a certain spell (for example, a platform that can move side to side intended to be combined with a levitate spell that moves it up and down), or an item that can take the place of an expensive spell component 1/day).

these sorts of things are some of the obvious things that a spellcaster should be looking at and saying "how can i use magic items to make these problems go away", and many of them are of just as much interest to an non-adventuring spellcaster as to an adventuring one.

edit: in contrast, if fighters can make magic swords and armour, it totally makes sense for there to be lots of magic weapons and armour kicking around, so if you make that adjustment to your setting, i'm still annoyed that wizards aren't making anything for wizards, but at least the abundance of warrior items begins to make sense.

[Ralanr]

i don't think they are going to make things that remove concentration, or allow multiple concentration spells. It's a mechanic that helps balance casters with martials. Sure martials get magic weapons, but they like everyone else have only three attunement slots. One of those is going to be a weapon. Casters can stock up on magical defense items. Spell storing rings, resistance rings, AC items.

Also, players don't get to pick and choose magic items from the DMG. The DM does. It's not a machine that randomly throws items out, it's a person who can decide to roll or pick and choose. So it's possible to get class specific items or stuff that you won't use.

Also, all spell casting classes have built in abilities that increase their spell power. They get this while leveling up. I think most get to add their spellcasting stat to damage rolls at some point.

[SharkForce]

there are items that can cast spells (or equivalent) without requiring concentration. why wouldnt there be items that let you cast spells and shift the concentration requirement onto someone else? quite frankly, if i can shift the concentration requirement of a haste spell onto the fighter who is benefitting from it, i'm a heck of a lot more likely to cast it in the first place. otherwise, well, haste is a good buff for you, but a 4-target hold person is a great buff for everyone, and there's not a chance in hell that i'm gonna prioritize a single-target haste spell that makes one person effective when i can simultaneously boost everyone's offence (against those targets) and increase their defence to infinity (against those targets) unless the fighter is literally the only one that can do anything.

i understand why concentration is necessary. and i understand why buff spells tend to require it (if they didn't, you'd stack buff spells on yourself and be nigh-invincible).

the problem is that debuffs and CC also require it, and will generally speaking be a better use for it. you getting haste isn't even a question of whether it's the most efficient use of the spell slot. at level 20, there's no question; my level 3 spell slots are probably not even going to get used. but my concentration slot is made so precious that, even though i'd be totally fine giving up a level 3 spell slot, the odds of your fighter ever seeing a haste spell at that level are slim to none unless you are an eldritch knight.

edit: and on a side note, most non-casters get abilities that buff their primary role as they gain levels. that doesn't somehow make them dumb enough to think that having *more* effectiveness in their primary role would be better, and they're not the ones that are likely walking around with 20 in intelligence or wisdom by the time making magic items becomes a possibility.

[Ralanr]

It should be noted that people generally don't play the same way others do. What one may see as a pointless strategy, another might see as awesome and use it. Whether one is better than the other doesn't matter.

Plus even the worst plans can be successful with lucky rolls. And the d20 system is built on rolls.

I like to think concentration sometimes involves repeating an incantation over and over. So unless the fighter knows the spell by heart, not gonna concentrate on it. Familairs probably could, but they aren't spell casters, you can just cast spells through them.

[SharkForce]

that just makes effectiveness more important. if you want people to be able to just freely do whatever is awesome, it is important to not punish them for that decision.

if it is a mechanically worse decision to cast haste on the fighter as compared to casting web (or hold person, or hypnotic pattern, or wall of stone, or whatever else) the vast majority of the time, you are punishing people who want to play a character that buffs others with ineffectiveness. if anything, those people should be encouraged, because that requires the group working together and helping one another out.

[jkat718]

I like to think concentration sometimes involves repeating an incantation over and over. So unless the fighter knows the spell by heart, not gonna concentrate on it. Familairs probably could, but they aren't spell casters, you can just cast spells through them.

Huh. I never thought of Concentration that way before, but it makes a good deal of sense. I might steal that for my own games...

[SharkForce]

Huh. I never thought of Concentration that way before, but it makes a good deal of sense. I might steal that for my own games...

only if you ignore the fact that you can concentrate in silenced areas, and can cast spells while concentrating (so long as those other spells are not concentration), and can carry on a conversation while concentrating, and can sneak while concentrating.

also that some magic items can be concentrated on as well.

[BootStrapTommy]

I don't think you guys understand. It's not glue. It's glue that it damn near takes a Wish to brake.

Like the level of glue unobtainable in worlds bound by the laws of physics.

[Gritmonger]

I don't think you guys understand. It's not glue. It's glue that it damn near takes a Wish to brake.

Like the level of glue unobtainable in worlds bound by the laws of physics.

...but in every version of D&D up until now it was what would be classified as "minor" or "uncommon" - available to third level characters.

What happened to make it jump to the level of Unobtanium and displace the Mirror of Life Trapping as a near-epic-level artifact, and the former top-tier holder in terms of cost?

[Ralanr]

...but in every version of D&D up until now it was what would be classified as "minor" or "uncommon" - available to third level characters.

What happened to make it jump to the level of Unobtanium and displace the Mirror of Life Trapping as a near-epic-level artifact, and the former top-tier holder in terms of cost?

Meh, the DM truly decides the rarity. Maybe one just decides you can buy them in the local store.

[Slipperychicken]

i dunno who decided that wizards and priests are going to make tons of items for warriors and rogues, and next to nothing for themselves, but somewhere along the way that decision was obviously made).


it just irritates me that apparently for thousands of years of history, apparently there has been a massive trend for casters to be completely selfless in making magic items.

If you believe the fluff, fighters and barbarians are supposed to be the rulers and nobles who can afford to commission lots of magic items. Also, they absolutely need magic weapons to penetrate certain resistances and immunities (in contrast with casters, who overcome such immunities automatically because magic). In that context, it makes sense for more magic items to be geared toward martials. Martials generate more demand for magic weapons and have more power to pay for them; that leads to martials being a more lucrative market segment than casters.

[Suichimo]

...but in every version of D&D up until now it was what would be classified as "minor" or "uncommon" - available to third level characters.

What happened to make it jump to the level of Unobtanium and displace the Mirror of Life Trapping as a near-epic-level artifact, and the former top-tier holder in terms of cost?

It, and universal solvent, were also created at 20th level, in 3.5. If you need a narrative reason, the creature, whose parts you would have utilized, is now extinct and there are no suitable substitutes.

Rarity is just that, rarity. This is pretty much a square rectangle thing. Powerful items are rare but rare items aren't necessarily powerful.

[XenoGeno]

only if you ignore the fact that you can concentrate in silenced areas, and can cast spells while concentrating (so long as those other spells are not concentration), and can carry on a conversation while concentrating, and can sneak while concentrating.

also that some magic items can be concentrated on as well.


Maybe in one setting, concentration causes a magical split between the left and right hemispheres in your brain, one half taking over completely for motor functions while the other half is concentrating.

Another setting might have it so that spells cause runes to form on your brain, and you have to "burn" them to cast, which is easy, but keeping it burning steadily is tough.

I could come up with more, but you get the point. It's not hard to justify whatever you want, bro.

[SharkForce]

If you believe the fluff, fighters and barbarians are supposed to be the rulers and nobles who can afford to commission lots of magic items. Also, they absolutely need magic weapons to penetrate certain resistances and immunities (in contrast with casters, who overcome such immunities automatically because magic). In that context, it makes sense for more magic items to be geared toward martials. Martials generate more demand for magic weapons and have more power to pay for them; that leads to martials being a more lucrative market segment than casters.

most of the spellcasters in the setting aren't going to be poor either. in fact, courtesy of the fact that many of them are compelled to adventure, they're probably far more likely to be rich. and in fact, noble doesn't mean rich either. the highest rank of nobles and rulers are fairly wealthy in some ways, but they also have commitments for that money. they have a lot, but they can't just stop paying their soldiers any time soon.

and so long as we're discussing not needing magical weaponry, nobles don't need a sword +1 nearly so much as they need the abbacus of accountancy.

(also, so long as we're discussing it, i would point out that some spellcasters can change damage types fairly easily, but that doesn't mean that they never have to worry about resistance or immunity, and they could certainly benefit from items that help them breach said resistances).

[Ralanr]

I think wizards are an exception to wealthy. It is expensive to write down spells in your book

[Slipperychicken]

and so long as we're discussing not needing magical weaponry, nobles don't need a sword +1 nearly so much as they need the abbacus of accountancy.

Nobles don't "need" a lot of the status symbols they have, including expensive showpiece weapons, but they still get them anyway to display their status and gain respect; Using a peasant's weapon is a sign that the noble is either cheap, impoverished, or desperate. I think that silvered weapons (100gp) would show the wielder is somewhat above the peasantry, +1 weapons (500gp each) would indicate that the wielder is equivalent to a minor lord like a knight, while +2 arms and armor (5,000gp) would be a symbol of the upper crust (like a powerful baron or such), and +3 equipment (50,000) would be an indulgence which only the richest and most powerful royalty could afford.

It's also a question of the setting. If society's leaders are the strongest warriors, personally fighting monsters themselves, then they absolutely would need ways to overcome resistances and immunities. If nobles were only expected to fight other humanoids, they would still be willing to splurge for a clear personal advantage, much as they did IRL. Even if they weren't expected to personally enter the fray, such weapons would be coveted as both status symbols and collector's items; Having magic items be rare only increases their value as such.

[SharkForce]

there are a great many noble families irl that seem to have managed to get by just fine without jewel-encrusted swords or other ways of wasting their money. I would expect the same to be mostly true in a fantasy world as well.

and no, scribing spells into your spell book is not that expensive. or at least, not at higher levels. for a level 1 character, sure 50 gp is a lot... for a level 10 character, it's not nearly as much, regardless of class. a suit of full plate, which from the last informal poll I recall, is expected to be available for martials some time between level 4 and 6. that alone (never mind any additional loot) represents 30 spell levels from a non-specialized school, above and beyond the free spells gained when you level up. or 150 spell levels worth of emergency backup spellbooks.

[Boci]

Nobles don't "need" a lot of the status symbols they have, including expensive showpiece weapons, but they still get them anyway to display their status and gain respect; Using a peasant's weapon is a sign that the noble is either cheap, impoverished, or desperate. I think that silvered weapons (100gp) would show the wielder is somewhat above the peasantry, +1 weapons (500gp each) would indicate that the wielder is equivalent to a minor lord like a knight, while +2 arms and armor (5,000gp) would be a symbol of the upper crust (like a powerful baron or such), and +3 equipment (50,000) would be an indulgence which only the richest and most powerful royalty could afford.

Is there an obvious difference between a +1, +2 and+3 weapon?


there are a great many noble families irl that seem to have managed to get by just fine without jewel-encrusted swords or other ways of wasting their money. I would expect the same to be mostly true in a fantasy world as well.

Today, or in the middle ages? If so, which ones are you thinking of?

[Ralanr]

Does it not increase in costs with spell levels?

[archaeo]

But you didn't offer a good or a bad explanation for the points SharkForce raised. You handwaived them aside with "you can cast spells therefor you shouldn't be complaining".

In my opinion, nearly the only point SharkForce is making is that, if you want, you can develop a setting or narrative that undermines the design goals of 5e. It's entirely possible to create a story in which it doesn't make any sense for us to have the item list we have. Maybe that story is "more logical" or "more rational" from some points of view, but it's still just a story, and in a game about telling stories, one should probably tell one that doesn't invalidate the rules we've got.

I say "nearly" because he's also making a mechanical point: that the DMG doesn't contain enough items that boost or otherwise augment a caster's abilities. So, I went through and counted. One list I found online suggested that there are 337 total magic items, so we'll assume that that's basically right. Then, I went through and manually tallied up "spellcaster items" and "martial items," counting only those items that had a mechanical impact on class features. I also counted "weapons," which are primarily magical versions of mundane weaponry, and "items that cast spells," which do what they say on the tin, i.e. cast an actual italicized spell.

By my count, there are 41 weapons, maybe 45ish when you include the +2 and +3 examples of the ordinarily magic weapons. There are 55 items that let you directly access a spell effect, 12 of which are wands (and one of which is the Wand of Orcus); this doesn't include things like the Ring of Shooting Stars, which doesn't duplicate an effect but creates an entirely new one, and doesn't count scrolls, or the dozens of other items which are clearly having a magical effect but don't name it as a PHB spell. Meanwhile, there are 18 items that must be used by spellcasters, though many of these simply replicate spell effects, and there's arguably only one item that directly interacts with martial features, which, if I remember correctly, improves or augments archery.

If I were going to tell a story based on assuming that this is the sum total of knowledge re: magic items in the setting, it would be that spellcasters generally thought it was more advantageous to have more spells than to make their own limited ability better.

The items that do augment spellcasting, of which there are a mere handful, mostly fill that design space; you can improve the power of casting, or the spells available, etc. SharkForce points out one of the few unfilled spaces, an item that enlarges concentration, but I imagine the developers were feeling a little uneasy with that concept. It's one of the things they point out in the DMG that homebrewers need to be extremely cautious about altering, lest it have unwanted balance effects.

Of course, as the DMG says:


The magic items in chapter 7, "Treasure," are but a few of the magic treasures that characters can discover during their adventures. If your players are seasoned veterans and you want to surprise them, you can either modify an existing item or come up with something new.

It's a pretty simple section, "Creating a Magic Item," but of course, the book just gave us well over 300 items as examples. I would suggest that drawing some kind of conclusion about the "default setting" 5e envisions is a little useless; the game literally tells you that they've barely scratched the surface about what exists.

[SharkForce]

Does it not increase in costs with spell levels?

it increases linearly. hence, "30 spell levels". that's 6 level 5 spells, or 10 level 3 spells, or 3 each of levels 1, 2, 3, and 4, or whatever other combination of spell levels that adds up to 30. multiply by 2.5 for spells of their chosen school (one disappointing side effect of that discount is that when they level up, it is better to choose spells that are not from their specialized school, so long as they have access to a source of spells to scribe from such as a captured spell book with the spells they want).

from that one item, which is expected around level 5. if we assume that fighter also should own a magic item, add another 500+ gp, if we assume a warhorse, another... 400 gp I think?

basically, warriors are assumed to have a lot of money (or equivalent wealth) to throw around. why wouldn't a wizard, when the wizard can potentially do things like create permanent torches that are resistant to wind, and won't light your house on fire, instantly craft even the most expensive of objects, instantly repair broken objects, locate lost or stolen (presumably expensive) items, instantly build walls, and so forth. the higher level the wizard is, the greater the potential for them to have ways to make easy money, really.

[calebrus]

How is gluing things legendary?

Because you have to
http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/This+post+is+legen+wait+for+it+dary+_fec6253db3368 ef0218c879943da5b37.jpg
to dry.

[Spojaz]

I think the most legendary part is how, if DM'd correctly, sovereign glue will ruin at least one miniature.

With it's cost and rarity,
*You are obligated to super glue the effected minis together*

[Rowan Wolf]

Legendary could be more the fact that the method of creation isn't well known, could require hard to get reagents, or the in house play test groups did bad things with it and now it is set at that rarity as a consequence of their actions.

[MadGrady]

How is gluing things legendary?

Because you have to
http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/This+post+is+legen+wait+for+it+dary+_fec6253db3368 ef0218c879943da5b37.jpg
to dry.

Calebrus.....amazing

[Gritmonger]

Legendary could be more the fact that the method of creation isn't well known, could require hard to get reagents, or the in house play test groups did bad things with it and now it is set at that rarity as a consequence of their actions.

This is my strongest suspicion - especially since this was also extended to Universal Solvent, but not Oil of Etherealness... but I wanted to know if anybody had some inside knowledge of this.

[Ralanr]

This is my strongest suspicion - especially since this was also extended to Universal Solvent, but not Oil of Etherealness... but I wanted to know if anybody had some inside knowledge of this.

Wait...the glue works on a multiplaner level?

Like the antimagic zone?

If you're find bait then you have an inter-dimensional fly trap.

[Gritmonger]

Wait...the glue works on a multiplaner level?

Like the antimagic zone?

If you're find bait then you have an inter-dimensional fly trap.

Here we have a clue. The Sovereign Glue entry states "Any two objects" I'm not sure there are any other limitations - dimensions, anything. So, what did low-level players manage to glue together that would cause an action as extreme as moving something from the level of a healing potion (the Universal Solvent) to the level of an Apparatus of Kwalish?

[Ralanr]

Here we have a clue. The Sovereign Glue entry states "Any two objects" I'm not sure there are any other limitations - dimensions, anything. So, what did low-level players manage to glue together that would cause an action as extreme as moving something from the level of a healing potion (the Universal Solvent) to the level of an Apparatus of Kwalish?

Something that made trolls cry probably. Internet trolls.

[TheOOB]

The magic item list in the DMG is not very good. Rarity values are all over the map with no real sense to them. I could see the arguement that rarity is a measure of how common it is that the item is made and not how valuable it is, but that doesn't sit with the magic item cost rules.

I think the argument for the glue is to make it so players can't make more of it, as the formula would be artifact level, but I don't know.

An aside, while I know buying magic items is supposed to be the exception and not the rule, items should really have market values.

[Santra]

Seems that people here dont know about lamination of super thin layers of adamantite and mithril bound with sovereign glue to create a light(er) and strong material that is tougher than its component parts.

[archaeo]

An aside, while I know buying magic items is supposed to be the exception and not the rule, items should really have market values.

As I suggested in another thread, there's a pretty easy way to assign value to items without too much trouble using the random magic item tables. There are 9 tables, which further subdivide the items within according to probability. You could either assign each table a base price and then adjust the price according to the probability of rolling a given item, by, say, giving every percentage point above 1% a discount. Alternately, you could just group the probability bundles and give individual prices to those.

In the crafting thread, I pointed out that it's really difficult to make a crafting mechanic that actually provides fun gameplay; at best, you can have a somewhat amusing spreadsheet. I think the same is true of buying and selling items. No matter how you set it up, it's going to lead to the game pausing while everybody does some light accounting homework. Personally, I think the default ruleset is better off without these pauses, at least outside the family of downtime mechanics that are designed for everyone pausing between adventures to do some paperwork.

Obviously, both magic item economies and crafting are iconic parts of D&D, and I suspect that both will eventually get revisited by the designers. It's not like your criticism is an unusual one, after all, and that criticism is eventually going to get to the D&D design team.

[Gritmonger]

Wait - if you were ethereal, and you used Sovereign Glue to glue something to something else that was normally naturally etherial, you could, say, put a ghost on a physical chain when your etherealness reverted (provided it wasn't caused by oil of etherealness). Are there other abuses I'm missing? Astral creatures that could be harnessed for cheap transportation, for instance?

[PeterM]

Here we have a clue. The Sovereign Glue entry states "Any two objects" I'm not sure there are any other limitations - dimensions, anything. So, what did low-level players manage to glue together that would cause an action as extreme as moving something from the level of a healing potion (the Universal Solvent) to the level of an Apparatus of Kwalish?

I think to justify Legendary status it should work on a metaphorical level. A treaty between nations that is augmented by gluing their most sacred objects together will never be broken, and their peoples will come to trust one another even if they started as mortal enemies. A marriage that is sanctified by gluing together locks of hair from the dearly beloved will remain strong forever, and will be blessed with good luck and good health. A person whose butt cheeks are glued together will be known as a geek forevermore, no matter what honors or accolades they may earn.

[Maxilian]

It can't be detached, so... you could basically knock to guys out and glue them together, when they wake up, they won't be able to detach themselves (Make a 2 headed ogre like these -is actually 2 ogres glued together by mistake- )

[JAL_1138]

It can't be detached, so... you could basically knock to guys out and glue them together, when they wake up, they won't be able to detach themselves (Make a 2 headed ogre like these -is actually 2 ogres glued together by mistake- )

They could have the glued patches of skin removed surgically, then get healed up by a cleric (or simply go to sleep for 8 hours and recover full HP...) The two pieces of skin would still be stuck together, though.

[Spojaz]

They could have the glued patches of skin removed surgically, then get healed up by a cleric (or simply go to sleep for 8 hours and recover full HP...) The two pieces of skin would still be stuck together, though.

It doesn't glue part of them, or their skin together, or even some of their flesh together. Normal glue can do that. Sovereign glue is a legendary magic item. It glues all of them. Somehow. Even if you rip off the skin or surgically remove the offending limb that surely would remove all of the glue, the two remain magically stuck together. *Magic*

[darkscizor]

Sovereign Glue is, of course, made from Sovereigns. In a lawless area they can be quite rare. Fortunately, in a kingdom with clearly-defined rules of succession and no mandatory mourning period, Sovereigns are a renewable resource.

Permission to sig?

[Xetheral]

Permission to sig?

Certainly. :)

[JAL_1138]

It doesn't glue part of them, or their skin together, or even some of their flesh together. Normal glue can do that. Sovereign glue is a legendary magic item. It glues all of them. Somehow. Even if you rip off the skin or surgically remove the offending limb that surely would remove all of the glue, the two remain magically stuck together. *Magic*

I only like doing this kind of thing with magic for joke purposes, and including "take 1d4 psychic damage if you think about it too long." When trying to run things (vaguely) seriously (I don't often get closer than "vaguely"), magic has to make as much sense as possible (e.g., "because magic" isn't a good enough answer for a nonsensical result like removing the glued parts still resulting in the glue-free parts being stuck together, when no spells or other items work that way at all) or it strains suspension-of-disbelief too much for my liking.

In a humor-heavy game: sure, why not.

In a non-joke game: It's good glue. It works like any other glue, except that the stuff it's gluing together will break before it does, absent Universal Solvent. If you don't reclassify its rarity downward, Legendary should reflect that it can't be made anymore, for whatever reason, and possibly some old mythological use on top of that rarity (e.g., some legendary thief glued a god's eyelids shut while they slept and proceeded to steal an Artifact or three), rather than reflecting it being Metaphorical/Metaphysical Glue.