Traps as Weapons

[Orion_S]

ive read over the trap rules and i personally cant see anything that says i cant and more then a few things that can be combined that says i can. What ive been working with is a magic trap that uses a maximized Orb of Force at a tenth caster level, ive already figured the type of trigger and what the CR is ive set its base attack bonus blah blah blah, the question came up of "where does it say you can do this" well where does it say i cant? or better yet where does it say i can?

the thing is basically a monster you pull out and use every round as a standard action that resets, it has a CR for that reason right? it even tells you to use traps as monsters equal to their CR in some instances

the goal was to use it to arm npc's in a paramilitary business using my cohorts and the ability to set a base attack for them was nice

[Curmudgeon]

Traps get triggered by the creatures they attempt to damage. If you trigger the trap each round, you'll have to save to avoid taking the damage.
Attack Bonus/Saving Throw DC
A trap usually either makes an attack roll or forces a saving throw to avoid it.
Also every trap has a Search DC to find, and (always the same number) Disable Device DC to disable.

[Orion_S]

i get that its implied that the person tripping it is the target but i cant find where it specifically states that, im arguing im the one targeting it and its attacking outward using its own base attack bonus, it has a range of 200ft when im done so if i trip it wouldnt it launch forward until it hit something?

Edit:
my argument was that a gunpowder pistol is essentially a mechanical trap that when you trip the trigger it sets off the alchemical component (gun powder) to send a bullet flying, im just using magic

[Red Fel]

The bottom line, as I see it, is that while you could set up a magic trap or spell clock that produces Effect X upon being triggered (even if that trigger is "every round"), you're not actually wielding it as a weapon. You're not activating it, in all likelihood. Let's look at some examples.

1. A Spell Clock of Orb of X. It doesn't really work. Orb spells require a ranged touch attack. If it was some kind of ray or cone, it would work, but the Spell Clock can't target something like that, I don't think.

2. A self-resetting magic trap of Orb of X. Again, a magic trap has a trigger; the spell is then cast on whoever triggered it. If you're trying to wield it as a weapon, you are triggering the trap. Now, fear not, for I may have a way around it.

3. A self-resetting magic trap of Lightning Bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm) or similar line/ray spell. It emerges from a cylindrical, tubular-shaped device. The trap is triggered when the device is held and a button on the side is pressed. The spell then emerges in the direction that the device is pointed. Instant lightning cannon. Of course, that's extremely hazardous if left unattended, you'd want something that can't be activated by accident, and ideally something that eventually runs out of juice (so it won't remain a threat perpetually). Don't worry, I have a suggestion.

4. A wand of Lightning Bolt.

[Troacctid]

A skilled artificer could repurpose such a trap into a weapon, but modifications would be necessary. You'd have to rejigger the targeting and trigger mechanisms and whatnot. Traps aren't designed to be moved around and aimed.

[Jay R]

There are several reasons for not allowing it. I would tell you that if you want a weapon that does that effect, stat it up as a weapon, and figure out how much you should pay for it.

But talk to your DM. He's the only one who can give you the reason you can't do it in his campaign.

[Mr.Moron]

There are already items that function broadly as wieldable spell-sources.: Wands.

Wands:

Are restricted to spellcasters
Have limited charges.
Have spell level limits.


This approach has none of those restrictions and is therefore strictly superior to a wand. In addition wands are clearly intended as player-use transportable items and traps are clearly not.

Wands Cost: Spell level × caster level × 750 gp
Rest Trap Cost: 500 gp × caster level × spell level (-100gp with the trigger being attached)


As a GM I could conclude the only motivation behind this is to get a vastly superior product and a greatly reduced price. I can see no reason a GM should allow this as it is a blatant and transparent attempt at using an overly liberal reading of the rules for a double-dip power grab (both better and cheaper).

Certainly the desire to have broadly usable spell-like weapon is fair, however simply torturing the trap rules for a cheaper and less restricted version of an existing class of items is probably not the healthiest way to go about it.

[SinsI]

Actually, for magic items "immobile/set in place" is a serious price reducer - that's why the traps are so much cheaper that usual magic items. If the player wants to "wield the trap" - those price reducers will not be in effect, and the player will have to pay the full price for normal magic item...
IMHO, there is only one seriously broken thing about traps - unconventional spell trigger that might allow you to save on actions by activating it with non-standard actions or bundling a bunch of effects together.

[Orion_S]

I like where the discussion is going and all but I've apparently missed a few trap rules regarding placement and acceptable targets, can anyone link them or tell me what book its in? Everyone keeps mentioning it so I thought it worth looking into, I want to stay as rule friendly as I can without completely breaking them, if this is technically possible then ittl be a RL diplomacy check, but it needs to technically be doable.

Unless of course were discussing the implied use rather then technical, implied means nothing to me

Edit:
My dm doesn't seem to believe in wbl or balance this campaign as we've already gone up against a few level 20's and were still around lvl 10, my class is artificer and with no income comming in I can't really do much except cast appropriate infusions on the other party members gear. He also isn't letting us bunker down for abit to build things as it takes to much time. I'm going up stream for this and I'm wanting a way to roll with it.

As I've said I don't want to outright break rules but I will surely bend the **** out of them if I can. Providing sources as to why it will or won't work is what I'm interested in, rather than "its implied it can't"

[Mr.Moron]

As I've said I don't want to outright break rules but I will surely bend the **** out of them if I can. Providing sources as to why it will or won't work is what I'm interested in, rather than "its implied it can't"

You'll not find them. They don't exist.

A trap is a trap, it's a an immobile part of a fortification and the rules for them make that as an assumption. This is why there are no guidelines on the size, dimensions or weight of a trap. All those things would only be relevant if the trap rules were written for them to be wielded as items. Consider for a moment:

Can a trap fit in something ring sized?
Can a trap fit in something pistol sized?
Can a trap fit in something minigun sized?

The answer to all these questions is: Undefined. There are no rules concerning it because the rules weren't written with such questions taken into consideration. Your trap weapons are as likely to weigh 25,000lbs as they are .000025lbs.

If you want to take a stance of "I can use any rule in anyway that rule does not specifically bar me from doing so, even where it doesn't explicitly give me permission to do so" the entire game breaks down, more so than it already does by default. If you wanna forge ahead on that path fine but it's the sort of thing that has high chance of spiraling out of control.

[Orion_S]

While i do indeed understand all the feedback ive been getting and appreciate both sides being discussed im just going to have to ask the DM if im allowed to build it as Troacctid, and Jay R mentioned as its ultimately his decision. i appreciate the assistance in structuring the argument for its creation given the circumstances involved in this campaign were probably not going to live through anyway!

Id also like to give Mr. Moron a special thank you as he rose a few valid points on both sides of the argument and a rather poignant warning as well. I will be taking what you all said to my DM to pound out more specific rules regarding construction and price of building the thing so i thank you all