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Kol Korran
2015-04-24, 01:26 PM
In one of the threads lately someone mentioned that in previous D&D editions, the Paladin was a prestige class, and that being able to get to the point where you could play it, was actually quite a special experience.

Which got me thinking- The experience of becoming a paladin would be an awesome experience to play! That special moment, that sort of defines a large part of who you are... But also a sorcerer, getting his powers... Or a druid? Or cavalier, joining his order?

Actually, come to think about it, come into your class/ profession/ role/ archetype is a bit thing in mny movies, many stories, and such... But in the game (Not just D&D. In Shadow run too most times, and I assume other games as well) you alredy start as the professional, and the story of how you've become so is relegated entirely to the background (Possibly with some hooks, but not much).

And so I'm thinking- aren't we missing on some cool roleplay and character defining experiences? I know that some do not wish to dwell upon it, but some do. So my question is- Have you done something to the matter? How did you handle it? What worked, what didn't? Would you like to roleply through such an experience? Yes or no, why do you choose so?

Or in other words- Discuss! :smalltongue:

Gritmonger
2015-04-24, 01:33 PM
A lot of times, given my players, I have them roleplay getting to the state where they join the game/campaign. So sometimes it's as a mundane character before they get their powers or abilities. Nobilis especially - with third edition, a mundane human can actually have some ability and some storytelling potential.

I've run 0th level D&D campaigns where player actions actually help to determine the characters' eventual classes - which often ended up emerging differently than envisioned when creating the characters.

I've run basic run-in adventures for inexperienced players and characters to get used to the play world, discover some things about it, maybe establish some NPC relationships they can rely on later.

Thrawn4
2015-04-24, 03:43 PM
I kind of like that idea. I already liked it back then in the first two gothic video games when you couldn't become a mage or a paladin before level 10. It made it more special, especially as the NPCs reacted differently to my choice.

I am not sure, however, how that would work out in a campaign with several PCs. You could start with mundane skillsets/classes like fighter/expert/rogue/craftsman and then try to get access to new organizations/rituals during the campaign, allowing you to choose new aspects like divine/necromancy/war/organization and so on.
This would also mean that could combine different classes in different ways. A fighter might turn into a paladin (divine), soul blade (necromancy), knight (war) or a leader (organization). An expert might turn into a priest, a necromancer, strategic genius or a spy.
Well now it sounds pretty cool.

And in case somebody is going to say "Only if I can retrain those lost levels" – no, you don't, because it's part of the experience of working your way up to something special AND this approach does not mesh with typical D&D class thinking as two levels of mage here are probably better than three levels of mage in D&D.

Lord Raziere
2015-04-24, 03:48 PM
well here is the problem with that, while I agree with it being an awesome thing to roleplay, I am horrible at playing anything without magical powers. so often they become an important moment of the backstory- in the backstory the Sorcerer's powers suddenly ignite because something he cares about is in danger and then he starts kicking ass.

I mean I guess I could roleplay it in flashbacks but....that has its own problems for the same reason why playing two characters at the same time has problems: you could get caught up in your own roleplaying and not allow anyone else to roleplay as well, hogging the spotlight.

tomandtish
2015-04-24, 04:05 PM
In one of the threads lately someone mentioned that in previous D&D editions, the Paladin was a prestige class, and that being able to get to the point where you could play it, was actually quite a special experience.

Which got me thinking- The experience of becoming a paladin would be an awesome experience to play! That special moment, that sort of defines a large part of who you are... But also a sorcerer, getting his powers... Or a druid? Or cavalier, joining his order?

Actually, come to think about it, come into your class/ profession/ role/ archetype is a bit thing in mny movies, many stories, and such... But in the game (Not just D&D. In Shadow run too most times, and I assume other games as well) you alredy start as the professional, and the story of how you've become so is relegated entirely to the background (Possibly with some hooks, but not much).

And so I'm thinking- aren't we missing on some cool roleplay and character defining experiences? I know that some do not wish to dwell upon it, but some do. So my question is- Have you done something to the matter? How did you handle it? What worked, what didn't? Would you like to roleplay through such an experience? Yes or no, why do you choose so?

Or in other words- Discuss! :smalltongue:

Point of clarification: Not counting 5E (which I am not up on), the Paladin was never a prestige class that you had to work your way into. If the class was available, it was available at first level. Even the Cavalier Paladin of Unearthed Arcana was available at 1st level (although MAD to the extreme with needed stats of Str: 15, Dex: 15, Con: 15, Int: 10, Wis: 13, Cha: 17). So if you are roleplaying the experience of becoming a Paladin, you are either roleplaying character creation, multiclassing, or something else is going on.


The one time I played a 1E Bard, we actually roleplayed out the advancement. It was interesting, because here was a DM who did stick to training. So after my levels of fighter, I had to find a thief, convince them to nominate me for membership in the guild (cue quests), and then advance. And then I had to do it again with a druid and a bard. With the fun bit of roleplaying that the druid actually hated thieves, so would never have agreed to train me if they knew I was going for Bard...

The Evil DM
2015-04-24, 04:47 PM
In my campaign world I moved Paladin to a prestige class for many of the same reasons. Before becoming paladin the characters would begin in a class called Squire. If they did not make paladin they would become a knight in the local political/military structure. If they made it through to paladin they would become part of the religious order.

But that is my own homebrew stuff.

Lord Torath
2015-04-24, 04:52 PM
Point of clarification: Not counting 5E (which I am not up on), the Paladin was never a prestige class that you had to work your way into. If the class was available, it was available at first level. Even the Cavalier Paladin of Unearthed Arcana was available at 1st level (although MAD to the extreme with needed stats of Str: 15, Dex: 15, Con: 15, Int: 10, Wis: 13, Cha: 17). So if you are roleplaying the experience of becoming a Paladin, you are either roleplaying character creation, multiclassing, or something else is going on. Clarification to your clarification: In the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia ruleset, Lawful Fighters could become Paladins at (I think) 9th Level. Neutral Fighters could become Knights, and Chaotic Fighters could become Avengers.

tomandtish
2015-04-24, 05:00 PM
Clarification to your clarification: In the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia ruleset, Lawful Fighters could become Paladins at (I think) 9th Level. Neutral Fighters could become Knights, and Chaotic Fighters could become Avengers.

I stand corrected. I was unaware of that one because while I'd had the original books, and then basic, I then went to advanced and never explored the subsequent enhancements to the original red box. So we do have one version where that was the case.

Magic Myrmidon
2015-04-24, 05:41 PM
It IS a good feeling when you finally get to play your concept. And I've done that many, many times. I've played a TON of 3.5 with a lot of different characters, you see. "Finally, I hit 7th level! I finally get to be a dervish, and do what I wanted to this whole time" or "Finally, I finally got warshaper! Now my changeling will be using natural weapons that I've wanted him to use since first level, and should have been able to this whole time!" or "Finally, I got Ur Priest! Now I can finally act out my character's intended plotline of the consequences of stealing power from gods!"

What I'm getting at here is that it can be fun to look forward to that sort of thing. A few times. But having to go through months (or even years, depending on frequency of play) before you FINALLY get to do what you wanted to character to be all along has gotten to be such a chore that I am beginning to dislike DnD, class systems, or anything that delays character concepts whatsoever. Sure, there are some things that aren't appropriate for low level or starting characters, and that's fine. I typically don't build a character around the ability to stop time (although I'd love to get the chance). However, when simple concepts are delayed (like being a music playing mage, or being a champion of good), the time spent wishing you could do what you want often outweighs the feeling you get when you finally get to do that thing.

I may be using a small bit of hyperbole, but hey. The internet's full of it, and it's easy to get the point across with it.

TheCountAlucard
2015-04-24, 06:01 PM
Exalted is, of course, my game of choice, and "that graduation experience" is often fun enough that I generally at least include the PCs Exalting as part of the prelude.

For examples of that, have a look at the opening post or so of Rise of the Green Sun Princes, where the PCs went from mortal musicians, merchants, warriors, and brides to infernal demigods ushered into the massive Demon City heralded by massive demonic parades.

Lapsed Pacifist
2015-04-24, 06:53 PM
Legend of the 5 Rings is perfect for this, as by default the players are enrolled in formal schools where they learn their techniques. A 'coming of age' type game where the players are starting on their path as samurai is actually recommended for newer players. Also, graduation (known as gempukku in the setting) is a special ceremony which all characters will go through at some point in their life.

Gritmonger
2015-04-25, 10:46 AM
It IS a good feeling when you finally get to play your concept. And I've done that many, many times. I've played a TON of 3.5 with a lot of different characters, you see. "Finally, I hit 7th level! I finally get to be a dervish, and do what I wanted to this whole time" or "Finally, I finally got warshaper! Now my changeling will be using natural weapons that I've wanted him to use since first level, and should have been able to this whole time!" or "Finally, I got Ur Priest! Now I can finally act out my character's intended plotline of the consequences of stealing power from gods!"

What I'm getting at here is that it can be fun to look forward to that sort of thing. A few times. But having to go through months (or even years, depending on frequency of play) before you FINALLY get to do what you wanted to character to be all along has gotten to be such a chore that I am beginning to dislike DnD, class systems, or anything that delays character concepts whatsoever. Sure, there are some things that aren't appropriate for low level or starting characters, and that's fine. I typically don't build a character around the ability to stop time (although I'd love to get the chance). However, when simple concepts are delayed (like being a music playing mage, or being a champion of good), the time spent wishing you could do what you want often outweighs the feeling you get when you finally get to do that thing.

I may be using a small bit of hyperbole, but hey. The internet's full of it, and it's easy to get the point across with it.

Part of why I did what I did in each case was to provide a small breather for the players to get to know their characters - to see if character concept and actual played characteristics really meshed. We're not talking months here - it often was a single session, some run as one GM and one Player to avoid having to have other characters sitting on the sidelines feeling like their time had been wasted.

It also can be a kind of tutorial time for new players. I understand the frustration with wanting to play a character as concept right out of the box (and Nobilis largely lets you do this...) but in these cases, part of the story was how each person ended up chosen for their task, or choosing their task. It can also avoid the abrupt "You all meet in a tavern" if each character feels like they had their own life before the party.

goto124
2015-04-25, 10:52 AM
The paladin as PrC can help ease the player into playing paladin morality in the setting, instead of being thrown into the oath right away.

We still have PrCs right? It could be a simple matter of RPing out getting the PrC, something that's usually glossed over.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-25, 11:37 AM
This is one of the things I like about Fate Core -- part of character creation is your backstory.

Phase One is writing a brief outline of your first adventure, how you came to be who you are. Phases Two and Three are writing how you came to meet other characters in your group.

Each Phase gives you an Aspect that you can use in play. Like the backstory, "The first winter after being sworn into the Order of the Verdant Forest, he was forced to fight off zombies that had strayed from a traveling lich's army" might give an Aspect like, Defender of the Verdant Forest or Implacable Foe of the Undead .

Magic Myrmidon
2015-04-25, 03:40 PM
Part of why I did what I did in each case was to provide a small breather for the players to get to know their characters - to see if character concept and actual played characteristics really meshed. We're not talking months here - it often was a single session, some run as one GM and one Player to avoid having to have other characters sitting on the sidelines feeling like their time had been wasted.

It also can be a kind of tutorial time for new players. I understand the frustration with wanting to play a character as concept right out of the box (and Nobilis largely lets you do this...) but in these cases, part of the story was how each person ended up chosen for their task, or choosing their task. It can also avoid the abrupt "You all meet in a tavern" if each character feels like they had their own life before the party.

One session isn't so bad. I don't know how Nobilis works (not entirely), but in DnD, that'd sort of still have the problem of implying that characters will start at level 1, which still delays the concept further. But it's not a bad idea in and of itself, I've just done it plenty of times.

Speaking of Nobilis, I've been super interested in that after I found out about it. Seems like you have some experience with it, how do you like it? Is it difficult to get the concept of diceless conflict resolution and stuff for a while?

Gritmonger
2015-04-25, 04:17 PM
One session isn't so bad. I don't know how Nobilis works (not entirely), but in DnD, that'd sort of still have the problem of implying that characters will start at level 1, which still delays the concept further. But it's not a bad idea in and of itself, I've just done it plenty of times.

Speaking of Nobilis, I've been super interested in that after I found out about it. Seems like you have some experience with it, how do you like it? Is it difficult to get the concept of diceless conflict resolution and stuff for a while?

Don't want to derail the thread - you don't have to start at zero for D&D; even if it's playing through encounters that may have some bearing on the campaign, it can help. It's like some people have mentioned about Fate - I ended up with a number of aspects, one of which was called "Stall the Vampire" in a Dresden Files campaign.

For a D&D version of this you could have one or two characters in peril and come upon by other characters - one event to cement a burgeoning relationship rather than being forced together. Let the players have some control over their interactions and how the story starts. Common one might be people traveling to a festival and being set upon by bandits - the festival ties together motivations for travel, the bandits set up a reason to work together to survive.

As for Nobilis, you could ask about my and other people's experience in the "Other Systems" forum.