Single Class Paladin Shadowbane Inquisitor Entry

[Yogibear41]

Is there anyway as a single class'd paladin to meet the sneak attack class feature requirement for entering Shadowbane Inquisitor? Without getting sneak attack as a racial ability.

[Troacctid]

The Martial Study and Martial Stance feats will do it. Pick up any Shadow Hand maneuver plus Assassin's Stance.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is a stance that grants sneak attack, although you will need martial study and martial stance to access (I don't think it has a 2+ maneuver prerequisite.)
Edit: swordsage'd

[torrasque666]

Its sneak attack class feature, not just sneak attack, and as such, I think can only actually be obtained through a class level that grants it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Personally I would argue that stances are class features and this one is granted by a feat, as opposed to sneak attack granted from a template or an item or a feat that says "you gain sneak attack."

[Nishant]

Unless you use the stance thing mentioned above, I don't think so. Perhaps you can ask your DM to allow you to drop your mount as well as a second feature to get sneak attack dice at a slower rate than rogue?

[torrasque666]

Personally I would argue that stances are class features and this one is granted by a feat, as opposed to sneak attack granted from a template or an item or a feat that says "you gain sneak attack."
The stance references the Sneak Attack special ability, and then refers to the Class Feature as something else entirely. The class feature grants the ability, but the ability is not the class feature. Two separate, distinct things.

[Fuhrmaaj]

There a few methods which vary in levels of cheese. I've got them listed so that the strictly legal methods are first, then increasingly questionable:

0) Take a level in a class or PrC which gives sneak attack, doesn't have prohibitive prerequisites and gives you features you like. I mention this because this is going to be the standard advice and it's worth restating.

1) As mentioned elsewhere, take the feats Martial Study (any) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance). The problem with this is that Assassin's Stance is a 3rd-level stance, which means an Initiator can take it at level 5 and a non-Initiator can't take it until level 10 with a feat, but you won't get a feat until level 12 so you're earliest entry via this method is level 13. You can expedite this by taking a level of Swordsage at 9 (which gives you the stance without spending 2 feats). Taking levels in Swordsage is actually pretty good for a Shadowbane Inquisitor because you can use the unarmed variant so you can use Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse to load on the sneak attack dice at almost full BAB (-1 because Swordsage isn't full BAB). You will also probably want to Tumble to get into flanking position so you can sneak attack; you can only Tumble in light armour (there are 3 ways around this), and the Swordsage gives your Wisdom bonus to AC while wearing light armour. I'd recommend Paladin 6/Swordsage 2/Shadowbane Inquisitor if you go this route.

2) Take a level of Rogue, then retrain it once you've reached level 4 of Shadowbane Inquisitor. The rules for retraining are pretty explicit about not allowing this unless you get sneak attack from another source, but it could buy time for the feat entry described above if your DM is cool with that. This is probably the best option because the cheese gets more pungent down the list.

3) If you have 5 levels of Paladin, taking a level of Blackguard gives you one sneak attack dice. You need to meet the tough prerequisites, but you can retrain Improved Sunder when you get it for free from Shadowbane Inquisitor. There isn't any text describing what happens to ex-Blackguards, so you could just change alignment back to Lawful Good and start leveling as a Shadowbane Inquisitor next level or take two levels to stack Divine Grace with Dark Blessing. The problem here is that a strict reading of the RAW says that you lose PrC class features if you no longer qualify for entry, so being Good would actually cause you to lose everything. Some ideas for getting the ranks in Hide is to use the Gnome Paladin variant; the Able Learner feat and 10 levels of Paladin; or taking levels in another class.

4) Hire an NPC Cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on you for +20 to UMD. Then cast Hunter's Eye (PHB2) from a scroll or wand so that you can take a level in Shadowbane Inquisitor. You won't get any class features of the class until you get sneak attack at 4th level, when you'll get everything at once. You also need to go through this process every time you level up until you get the sneak attack class feature from Shadowbane Inquisitor.

5) There are rules in Unearthed Arcana for Generic Classes which have a feat to grant 2d6 sneak attack if you meet simple skill requirements. These feats are intended for Generic Classes instead of the classes printed in the PHB so I can't see any DM allowing this.

6) Work with your DM to houserule an Alternative Class Feature for the Paladin. If it were me I'd give 1d6 sneak attack every time the Paladin gains a new spell level (4, 8, 11, 14) instead of gaining spells. While you're piddling around trying to get a single die of sneak attack, spellcasters are beginning to break the game. You're playing a Tier 5 class and the PrCs likely don't take you much higher without heavy optimization so it would be mighty decent of your DM to help you out with such a minor problem.

Here's the thing: I'm pretty sure you're doing the Blackguard two-step where you go into Shadowbane Inquisitor then drop all your Paladin levels when you go into Blackguard so that you don't have any levels in a base class (just PrCs). The rules on this are funky because you stop qualifying for Blackguard if you drop your Paladin levels but there is text describing this exact process in the DMG which indicates that it's meant to be a legal maneuver. You're going to want to be working with your DM to figure out how this works anyhow, so you might as well have him/her help you bend the rules a little while you're at it. I would recommend completely redrafting your character sheet when you drop the Paladin levels because your skills change and Blackguard appears to become the class you took levels in first, before levels in Shadowbane Inquisitor which means you'd qualify for Shadowbane Inquisitor after you make the switch.

I've actually played Shadowbane Inquisitor/Blackguard from 1st level to 21st level and I went to try to recreate my character the other day. In the process, I wrote half a guide so other people could play too but I got discouraged because the two PrCs are pretty weak and I didn't think there would be very much interest. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me while it's all fresh in my mind.

Edit: Cited the wrong source for Hunter's Eye.

[torrasque666]

1) Martial Stance Route Again, as I mentioned before. Sneak Attack Special Ability =! Sneak Attack Class Feature Why does everyone ignore that? The stance even then references the Class Feature as something else, when describing how the Special Ability works.


4) Hire an NPC Cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on you for +20 to UMD. Then cast Hunter's Eye (SpC) from a scroll or wand so that you can take a level in Shadowbane Inquisitor. You won't get any class features of the class until you get sneak attack at 4th level, when you'll get everything at once. You also need to go through this process every time you level up until you get the sneak attack class feature from Shadowbane Inquisitor.

See above

[Fuhrmaaj]

Again, as I mentioned before. Sneak Attack Special Ability =! Sneak Attack Class Feature

I believe the reason it's written this way is that there is no description of Sneak Attack outside of the Class Feature of the Rogue Class. So anything that grants the Sneak Attack ability grants the Rogue's Sneak Attack Class Feature. Most instances reference the description of the Rogue instead of reprinting the ability, the exception when it's a class feature of another class. This is also true for Evasion which keeps referencing the Monk's Class Feature. You can verify this by typing "sneak attack" into the search bar of the SRD; it just brings up the Rogue class.

In order to prove to me that the class feature and ability version of sneak attack were meant to be distinct you need to show me an instance of something which: 1) grants the sneak attack ability, 2) is not a class feature, 3) does not reference a class in its description. For example, the Marrulurk from Sandstorm grants a sneak attack ability but references the Rogue's class feature which is not sufficient evidence for me to believe that the two were meant to be independent.

I tried to phrase my post to indicate that there wouldn't be any debate about any of them because each has its own problems. If torrasque666 is your DM, then it's clear that he requires you to get sneak attack by taking levels in a class but other DM's might not agree, including all the other people in this thread. My post is meant to summarize all the options I'm aware of but regardless of your interpretation you're going to have to take it up with your DM.

[torrasque666]

I'm not the DM, I'm just pointing out that by RAW Special Ability isn't the Class Feature.

And the Marrulurk essentially does reprint the Sneak Attack text block. The only thing it doesn't print is the limitations on sneak attack(undead, constructs, other crit-immune creatures, concealment) hence the reference.

There's also the Dark Stalker( FF 38) which has Sneak Attack 3d6 as a racial ability, but no description, and thus no reference to the Rogue class. Or Astral Stalkers (MM3 12) which only says sneak attack like a rogue, dealing its extra 2d6 when they are denied dex or its flanking(so actually better than the rogues, because it doesn't necessarily maintain the limitations) Meanwhile, in the same book, Naztharune Rakshasas (P.136) have the same ability, again not referencing the Rogue class feature. Splinterwaifs as well only say like a rogue, but have no reference to it other than that(no page/book source) and specifying how it gains more sneak attack dice through HD advancement. Same with Thorns, but no advancement text. Witchknives too. The Whitchknife Captain entry implies that it stacks with rogue levels too. And the Witchknife's "As character" entry even includes the sneak attack ability! And this is just MM3!

[Fuhrmaaj]

I'm not the DM, I'm just pointing out that by RAW Special Ability isn't the Class Feature.

There is a tendency for people to say that the Rules As I Interpret are the RAW, but the reason that RAI exists is because it is often the case that the phrasing WotC uses isn't very tight. I don't know what the RAW of Sneak Attack is, but I know that your RAI and mine differ.


And the Marrulurk essentially does reprint the Sneak Attack text block. The only thing it doesn't print is the limitations on sneak attack(undead, constructs, other crit-immune creatures, concealment) hence the reference.

The reference, to me, is sufficient to indicate that the Special Ability of the Marrulurk grants the Rogue's Class Feature. If it weren't, then the limitations would have been printed and the Rogue would not have been referenced. I believe the intent is so you can use items, join PrCs and take feats which apply to your sneak attack ability the way they apply to a Rogue's Class Feature.


There's also the Dark Stalker( FF 38) which has Sneak Attack 3d6 as a racial ability, but no description, and thus no reference to the Rogue class.

It doesn't have a description, so it doesn't say what it does. This is clearly not what I asked for. Am I to expect that the Dark Stalker's special Sneak Attack Ability doesn't do anything or that it uses the same Sneak Attack ability which is printed in the Rogue's description. The underlying problem is that there isn't a complete description of sneak attack outside of Class Features (I can't even find another class which prints how sneak attack works without referencing the Rogue Class Feature) which means that any Ability which grants sneak attack also grants the Rogue's Sneak Attack Class Feature.

[torrasque666]

The underlying problem is that there isn't a complete description of sneak attack outside of Class Features (I can't even find another class which prints how sneak attack works without referencing the Rogue Class Feature) which means that any Ability which grants sneak attack also grants the Rogue's Sneak Attack Class Feature.
Stonedeath Assassin (RoS 124) has literally the same text for its sneak attack class feature(aside from slight differences for class names)

[Fuhrmaaj]

Stonedeath Assassin (RoS 124) has literally the same text for its sneak attack class feature(aside from slight differences for class names)

Nice find! Yeah, I think it's intentional that sneak attack gets printed out in full for classes but not from other sources. I probably wouldn't get too hung up on the sneak attack requirement for Shadowbane Inquisitor considering it's already a nuisance to get, the other requirements are a nuisance and it's not like the class is game-breaking. If this were the requirements for the Incantatrix then I'd probably be splitting hairs right with you but I think most DMs would allow Assassin's Stance as a prerequisite because there isn't a distinction between the two perceived types of sneak attack.

I personally don't think the UMD Hunter's Eye option is pretty bogus, but you see it pop up occasionally on forums so I thought it would be worth mentioning. I doubt many players would be willing to take 3 dead levels though.

[torrasque666]

They probably just keep referencing it, rather than reprinting the rules for each source, because other than in class feature rules descriptions, they really don't have the space to reprint all that text. Especially when they can simply say "go look on this page in this book that you kinda need to have to play the game to know how this works."

[justiceforall]

3) If you have 5 levels of Paladin, taking a level of Blackguard gives you one sneak attack dice. You need to meet the tough prerequisites, but you can retrain Improved Sunder when you get it for free from Shadowbane Inquisitor.

Retraining does not work like that. Retraining only allows you to change things as if you'd always built the character that way in the first place. You cannot use a feat you obtained through a class feature to qualify for something that qualified you to get that class feature in the first place.

Your qualification for Shadowbane is predicated on your gaining sneak attack through Blackguard. You cannot take Blackguard without Improved Sunder. Therefore you cannot qualify for Blackguard if you try to use a feat you gain from Shadowbane since you already had to be a Blackguard first.

[WeaselGuy]

Retraining does not work like that. Retraining only allows you to change things as if you'd always built the character that way in the first place. You cannot use a feat you obtained through a class feature to qualify for something that qualified you to get that class feature in the first place.

Your qualification for Shadowbane is predicated on your gaining sneak attack through Blackguard. You cannot take Blackguard without Improved Sunder. Therefore you cannot qualify for Blackguard if you try to use a feat you gain from Shadowbane since you already had to be a Blackguard first.

I don't have my books with me at the moment, so don't take these levels seriously, but the point he's trying to make would be something like this...
Levels 1-6: Paladin. Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder
Level 7: Blackguard
level 8: Shadowbane Inquisitor. Gains Improved Sunder as a Bonus Feat. Retrain this instance of Improved Sunder for something else.

[justiceforall]

I don't recall retraining letting you swap out for something that was not permitted by the original class ability/feat selection? In this case, Shadowbane only gives you Improved Sunder. Therefore you cannot retrain it into anything other than Improved Sunder?

[WeaselGuy]

That part I wouldn't be able to conjecture upon. My group doesn't use retraining outside of DCFSing. Which, I suppose you could do, yes? I mean, if you get a feat from a 2nd source and you already have that feat, you still "get" the feat, don't you? It's just ineffective (unless it's a stackable feat, of course), right? So, in the situation posed above, you would have 2 instances of Improved Sunder, but only 1 ever works for anything, so you can Shuffle out the 2nd for something else. I think. I could be wrong.

[justiceforall]

Isn't there a way to build a Blackguard 10/Shadowbane Inq X with no base class levels by using the swap-paladin-levels-for-blackguard trick?

[torrasque666]

Technically the rules for retraining feats are as follows:

You can exchange one of the feats you previously selectedfor another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only
must your character meet them in his current state, but you
must also be able to show that he met them at the time you
chose the previous feat.

So since he gets Improved Sunder from Shadowbane Inquisitor. He has two instances of Improved Sunder. He retrains the first one out for something else that he would have qualified for at the level it was gained. So say he took it as his 6th level feat. Anything else that he would have qualified for at 6th level is a valid feat. Technically, there's nothing in the rules for Retraining stating that if the feat is being used as a prereq that it cant be retrained out anyway. In theory, he could take improved sunder at 6th, take blackguard for the sneak attack die, and retrain improved sunder for something else he'd have qualified for at 6th.


Isn't there a way to build a Blackguard 10/Shadowbane Inq X with no base class levels by using the swap-paladin-levels-for-blackguard trick?

Blackguard doesn't supply either Detect Evil or Turn Undead but Detect Good and Command Undead. In short, no.

[WeaselGuy]

Isn't there a way to build a Blackguard 10/Shadowbane Inq X with no base class levels by using the swap-paladin-levels-for-blackguard trick?

You can only trade out the Paladin levels for Blackguard levels if you have 11+ Paladin levels. So, at the best, you would have Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/SBI X

[ShurikVch]

There is a cheesy, but viable way to do it:
Paladin 2/Rogue 1
Feat: Knight Training (Rogue)
Template: Petitioner
Now you lost your Rogue level, but keep your Sneak Attack class feature

[Valwyn]

I can't think of any way for a single class paladin to enter, but maybe you could take a level of Sneak Attack Fighter (trade bonus feats for rogue SA progression)? Or maybe be a Prestige Paladin? Something like SA Fighter 3/Cloistered Cleric 2/Prestige Paladin 3/Shadowbane Inquisitor 8? You get +4d6 SA (counting SI levels), 2nd level cleric spells (CL 4, or 8 if you take Practised Spellcaster), paladin goodies (divine health/grace, lay on hands, detect evil, smite, mount, aura), and most SI abilities (you only really miss out on Burning Light, which isn't worth it in my opinion.)

[dantiesilva]

I personally did it the exact opposite way for one of my villians, and by the time I took my first level of blackguard I was already a level 10 Shadowbane inquisitor so I lost nothing due to absloute conviction. And as Shadowbane Inquisitor levels counted as paladin levels for certain things, it was ruled that they counted in the case of the blackguards ability to retrain paladin levels. I ended up as a rogue/Shadowbane inquisitor 10/Blackguard x with all the powers of being a fallen paladin 10, a shadowbane inquisitor, and the blackguard fun. Sure not overly powerful, but a fun character to play. He was best described by a few friends who saw him and how he acted as David Xanatos from Gargoyles.

[justiceforall]

And yep, that was how I remember reading that you can do it. You can apparently end up Shadowbane 10/Blackguard 10 - a legal character with no base class levels! :)