Vile + Exalted

[j_spencer93]

I don't particularly see a way this is possible but could someone posses a vile and an exalted feat?

[torrasque666]

Given that Vile feats can only be possessed by Evil characters("Only intelligent characters of an evil alignment can use vile feats." page 47, BoVD) and Exalted can be possessed only by Good characters with the DM's permission ("Onlyintelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats...A character must have the DM’s permission to take an exalted feat" page 39, BoED) I'm gonna go with no.

[j_spencer93]

My holy sworn slayer really likes the vow of vengeance feat, hell it even fits thematically. The only thing wrong is its a vile feat.

Also i thought they were the exact opposites, so i was right.

[Troacctid]

Vile feats, introduced in Book of Vile Darkness, are available only to intelligent characters of evil alignment. Vile feats are granted to characters at the behest of a powerful evil agent—in this case, a demon lord. As such, the benefits granted by these feats are supernatural rather than extraordinary abilities. Some DMs might also want to require any character wishing to take a vile feat to perform a special ritual or make an actual bargain with a demon lord. The demon lord could even (at the DM’s discretion) have the ability to revoke the feat should the character displease his new patron.

Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures. These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are).

A character must have the DM’s permission to take an exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for example, in the presence of a celestial being. A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).

By my reading, a creature must be evil to take a Vile feat, but the benefit of the feat is not lost if they later change alignment unless the being who granted the feat decides to revoke it. If an evil creature reforms and becomes worthy of Exalted status, they could potentially have both a Vile feat and an Exalted feat.

Of course, most Vile feats preclude goodness (because they do things like swear you into the service of a fiend), so it would be pretty unlikely.

[j_spencer93]

vow of vengeance just makes you want to slaughter your favored enemy. His is undead, so I don't see a problem with it, it doesn't even conflict anything and really seems to fit with sword slayer's own idea.

[illyahr]

Good-aligned creature with the [Evil] subtype. Bam.

[Troacctid]

vow of vengeance just makes you want to slaughter your favored enemy. His is undead, so I don't see a problem with it, it doesn't even conflict anything and really seems to fit with sword slayer's own idea.

In this specific case, the problem is that you've sworn an oath of fealty to an evil deity or an evil cause, as required by the Unspeakable Vow feat. You'd have to renounce that oath to qualify for Exalted feats; doing so would cause you to lose the prerequisites, and therefore the benefits, of Oath of Vengeance.

[j_spencer93]

I get the problem, just sucks it won't work.

[Devmaar]

Could a good-aligned hellbred take vile feats?

[Troacctid]

A Hellbred's Evil Exception (Ex) ability only applies to evil magic items and the casting of [Evil] spells.

[Bucky]

In this specific case, the problem is that you've sworn an oath of fealty to an evil deity or an evil cause, as required by the Unspeakable Vow feat. You'd have to renounce that oath to qualify for Exalted feats; doing so would cause you to lose the prerequisites, and therefore the benefits, of Oath of Vengeance.

So all I need to do is find an evil cause whose vow I can technically uphold in a Good manner? It sounds like a genocide aimed at mindless undead comes pretty close.

[danzibr]

A Hellbred's Evil Exception (Ex) ability only applies to evil magic items and the casting of [Evil] spells.
Beat me to it.

I was going to say houserule it to apply to feats.

[j_spencer93]

Ya basically his characters idea is a guy dedicated to killing undead and other supernatural

[SangoProduction]

Well, if you are a demon, then you will be permanently tagged as evil, even if you are a good alignment, because you are an evil subtype. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
dunno if that's really going to help you though.

[Andezzar]

Good-aligned creature with the [Evil] subtype. Bam.It does not work. Both feat categories explicitly require a specific alignment group. A subtype is not an alignment group.

However there are some feats that really do not merit the [Exalted]/[Vile] tags. It does not sense that Intuitive Attack only works for Goody Two Shoes. Vow of Vengeance looks similar. Just remove the tag.

[illyahr]

It does not work. Both feat categories explicitly require a specific alignment group. A subtype is not an alignment group.

However there are some feats that really do not merit the [Exalted]/[Vile] tags. It does not sense that Intuitive Attack only works for Goody Two Shoes. Vow of Vengeance looks similar. Just remove the tag.


Evil Subtype

A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

Sure, they may not have the specific alignment but they are treated as if they did. They need to be Good to have Exalted feats, which they are because they are Good-aligned. They need to be Evil to get Vile feats, which they are treated as because of their subtype.

[Troacctid]

Vow of Vengeance is fairly evil, as vows go. It mandates that you fight and kill any member of the chosen type or subtype you encounter, regardless of their alignment or whether they mean you any harm, and if you take any prisoners, you need to execute them within a week of their capture. And you need to seek them out and kill at least one of them a month. So it's like bigotry, except instead of being prejudiced against them, you have to actively try and murder every one of them that you see.

Sure, you could take a vow against undead, but given that two-thirds of the benefit of the feat is a bonus to confirming critical hits, choosing a foe that is immune to critical hits seems suboptimal.

[j_spencer93]

would be sub op, and ya I get it is mainly evil focus. I understand what they were aiming for. I guess Nemesis is kind of the good version of the feat

[danzibr]

Waaaaait a minute. What about that one monster which is angel-devil/demon hybrid? I forget what it is or what book it's from.

[j_spencer93]

thats an epic creature who is evil.

[Kazyan]

Waaaaait a minute. What about that one monster which is angel-devil/demon hybrid? I forget what it is or what book it's from.

Concordant Killer from MMIV, and it doesn't do anything relevant to [Exalted] or [Vile] feats besides making life harder for those with the alignments that can possess them.

[j_spencer93]

I was thinking of the infernal i think from the epic handbook