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fattybear
2015-04-24, 04:16 PM
Feedback welcome.

Revised Monastic Tradition
Phoenix Arts: Starting when you choose this tradition at the 3rd level, you gain the ability to use your ki to tap into the power of a phoenix. As an action, you can spend 2 ki to cast cure wounds or burning hands. You learn the spare the dying cantrip and sacred flame cantrip if you did not know them already.

Shield of Flames: At 6th level, when you sustain damage, you may use your reaction to use 2 ki to veil yourself in a cloak of healing flames. You recover 2d6 hit points and inflict 2d6 fire damage to one creature within 5 feet of you. You may spend an additional ki point to add another d6 to your hit points recovered and fire damage inflicted. You may add additional ki points up to half of your monk level, rounded down. You also now have resistance to fire damage.

Phoenix Soul: At 11th level, you are able to use your ki to tap deeper into the abilities of a phoenix. As an action, you can spend 4 ki to cast fly on yourself without the material components. When you do so, flaming wings sprout from behind your back. You also may choose to learn one of the following spells.
Flames of the Phoenix: You can spend 4 ki to cast fireball.
Recovery: You can spend 3 ki to cast lesser restoration.

Rebirth: Beginning 17th level, you have learned the way of regeneration in the face of death. During your turn, if you have zero hit points and are unconscious or dead, you may spend 3 ki to revive with one quarter of your maximum hit points in a glorious, blinding light. All creatures in a 20 foot radius from you must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become blinded until the end of their next turn. You may only do this once every long rest and within one minute of reaching zero hit points. If you had severed body parts, these body parts are restored.

If you die of natural causes, old age, or choose to do so after dying in combat, you may spend 6 ki to reincarnate as a young child. You have some of your memories intact and you must roll d100 to determine your race, similar to the reincarnate spell. You only retain faint memories of your previous capabilities.

Improved Timeless Body: At 17th level, your Timeless Body feature improves. For every 5 years that you pass, your body ages only 1 year.[/SPOILER]


Description: Monks of the Way of the Phoenix believe in reincarnation and the cycle of life. The phoenix and the sun embody everything they value and disciples strive to replicate the power of the two. They learn techniques to sustain their physical and spiritual bodies while also learning to manipulate the fiery nature of the phoenix and sun to their advantage.

Fiery Strike: Starting at level 3, as a bonus action, you may choose to spend 1 ki to add d8 fire or radiant damage plus your Wisdom modifer to one of your melee attacks during your turn.
I could use help on thinking of a good Level 3 power as I am not sure if this is any good.

Rejuvenation: At 6th level, you gain the ability to heal yourself. As an action, you can regain hit points equal to three times your monk level. You must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

Flaming Soul: Beginning at 11th level, you have gained resistance to fire damage. When you are successfully hit by a creature's melee attack, you may use your reaction to deal d10 fire or radiant damage to that creature.

Rebirth: Beginning 17th level, you have learned the way of regeneration in the face of death. During your turn, if you have zero hit points and are unconscious or dead, you may spend 3 ki to revive with one quarter of your maximum hit points in a glorious, blinding light. All creatures in a 20 foot radius from you must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become blinded until the end of their next turn. You may only do this once every long rest and within one minute of reaching zero hit points. If you had severed body parts, these body parts are restored.

Improved Timeless Body: At 17th level, your Timeless Body feature improves. For every 5 years that you pass, your body ages only 1 year.

Demonic Spoon
2015-04-25, 12:09 PM
Fiery Strike isn't very good simply because it competes with Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows. Specifically, the martial arts bonus attack is by itself almost as good as fiery strike, and if you are going to spend ki, flurry of blows is way better.

Flaming Soul is similarly not very good - d10 fire damage is only 5.5 average, which doesn't quite compete with the other subclass' level 11 features. It's also at odds with the monk's 'don't-get-hit' style, as they have relatively low hitpoints.

Rebirth is quite cool - definitely my favorite feature here.

Improved Timeless Body seems thematically at odds with the whole "reincarnation and the cycle of life" thing.



Anyway, more specific advice:

Other monk disciplines usually get some kind of utility feature at level 3. Shadow monks get some stealth-themed spells, element monks get blasty spells (which are still utility, since their primary attack is still melee), and open hand monks get to knock people around the battlefield.

The level 11 feature can afford to be quite powerful. Remember that this is basically all monks get at this level, and it's competing with way of the shadow's at-will invisibility and the way of the open hand's free, semipermanent sanctuary.

Rfkannen
2015-04-25, 01:14 PM
This seems pretty awesome!


One thing is with the second level 17 ability, it is cool and flavorfull for them to live even longer, but if I was a player and I got that I would be like "well what do you know an ability that doesnt come up often is a bit better"
I would recomend increasing lifespan even more, but what I would personally do is let them have a bit of that peonix power. If they ever reach the point where they would die of old age they become a kid again! I don't know I just think as a player I would enjoy that more. Overall it does seem like a realy awesome path that I would love playing, just that is what I would personally like.

fattybear
2015-04-25, 01:47 PM
Fiery Strike isn't very good simply because it competes with Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows. Specifically, the martial arts bonus attack is by itself almost as good as fiery strike, and if you are going to spend ki, flurry of blows is way better.

I agree the Level 3 needs work. I will have to think of a decent Level 3 utility ability. Just off the top of my head, what about this:

Flight of the Phoenix: As a bonus action, you may spend 1 ki to gain a fly speed equal to your normal movement speed. Enemies have disadvantage on opportunity attacks while you are in flight. This lasts until the end of your next turn, where you proceed to float back down to the ground.

This ability would give mobility, which is a different utility than the stealth, knocking around, and blasty spells.


Flaming Soul is similarly not very good - d10 fire damage is only 5.5 average, which doesn't quite compete with the other subclass' level 11 features. It's also at odds with the monk's 'don't-get-hit' style, as they have relatively low hitpoints.

How about just using "Flames of the Phoenix" that the elemental monk has. I totally forgot they had that as a choice until now. So the monk can spend 4 points to cast fireball. I'd still give resistance to fire damage on top of that.


Improved Timeless Body seems thematically at odds with the whole "reincarnation and the cycle of life" thing.

The improved body feature derives from the fact that phoenixes live for hundreds of years or longer.

weaseldust
2015-04-25, 02:04 PM
I agree with Demonic Spoon on all points. I like the flavour, though, and the level 17 ability (which you clearly designed the class around - that's a good thing, but it might explain why the abilities gained at other levels aren't so strong).

Suggestions:

- By analogy with the other monk subclasses, they should get spells. They have a focus on both fire and healing. Let them cast, say, Burning Hands for 3 ki, Cure Wounds for 2 ki and Spare the Dying for 1 ki at level 3.

- Also at level 3, let them spend 1 ki for a minute of resistance to fire damage (and heat). They need some kind of resistance because it doesn't make sense for a phoenix to be afraid of fire, but no-one else gets permanent resistance to a damage type at this level as far as I can remember.

- At level 6, combine your existing level 3 and level 6 and level 11 abilities to something like 'when you take damage, use your reaction and spend 2 ki to recover 2d6 hp and deal 2d6 fire damage to an adjacent creature'. Allow them to spend an additional ki point for d6 more hp and damage, but only up to half their level in ki points. That way you capture the 'catch fire to heal' flavour in one go and in a way that scales.

- At level 11, since they're bird-related, why not also give them something flight-related? Actual flight would be too strong, but they could spend 2 ki to have a flight speed equal to their ground speed for 1 minute, having to land at the end of each turn (that's kind of how the Eagle Barbarian works, right?). They could also be able to glide, i.e. move horizontally at a speed equal to their ground speed, when they use their feather-fall ability.

- Also at level 11, a couple more spells. Lesser Restoration - 4 ki. Elemental Weapon - 6 ki (this works for fists, right?). Reincarnate - 10 ki.

- What you have at level 17 is great, but I like Rfkannen's 'become young again' amendment. Also, since I only gave them temporary fire resistance before, you could now give them permanent fire resistance and the ability to gain temporary hp equal to their wisdom mod when they take fire damage.


You also mentioned a connection to the sun, so I considered giving them Dancing Lights for 1 ki at level 3 and Daylight for 4-6 ki at level 11, but it seemed like they had enough spells already.

Ralanr
2015-04-25, 02:12 PM
If the level 3 ability stays damage, I'd remove the d8 and just do fire or radiant damage in your wis mod in addition to your damage.

fattybear
2015-04-25, 02:29 PM
I agree with Demonic Spoon on all points. I like the flavour, though, and the level 17 ability (which you clearly designed the class around - that's a good thing, but it might explain why the abilities gained at other levels aren't so strong).

Suggestions:

- By analogy with the other monk subclasses, they should get spells. They have a focus on both fire and healing. Let them cast, say, Burning Hands for 3 ki, Cure Wounds for 2 ki and Spare the Dying for 1 ki at level 3.

- Also at level 3, let them spend 1 ki for a minute of resistance to fire damage (and heat). They need some kind of resistance because it doesn't make sense for a phoenix to be afraid of fire, but no-one else gets permanent resistance to a damage type at this level as far as I can remember.

- At level 6, combine your existing level 3 and level 6 and level 11 abilities to something like 'when you take damage, use your reaction and spend 2 ki to recover 2d6 hp and deal 2d6 fire damage to an adjacent creature'. Allow them to spend an additional ki point for d6 more hp and damage, but only up to half their level in ki points. That way you capture the 'catch fire to heal' flavour in one go and in a way that scales.

- At level 11, since they're bird-related, why not also give them something flight-related? Actual flight would be too strong, but they could spend 2 ki to have a flight speed equal to their ground speed for 1 minute, having to land at the end of each turn (that's kind of how the Eagle Barbarian works, right?). They could also be able to glide, i.e. move horizontally at a speed equal to their ground speed, when they use their feather-fall ability.

- Also at level 11, a couple more spells. Lesser Restoration - 4 ki. Elemental Weapon - 6 ki (this works for fists, right?). Reincarnate - 10 ki.

- What you have at level 17 is great, but I like Rfkannen's 'become young again' amendment. Also, since I only gave them temporary fire resistance before, you could now give them permanent fire resistance and the ability to gain temporary hp equal to their wisdom mod when they take fire damage.


You also mentioned a connection to the sun, so I considered giving them Dancing Lights for 1 ki at level 3 and Daylight for 4-6 ki at level 11, but it seemed like they had enough spells already.

Yeah, the tradition definitely needed some help, thus why I posted it here! You have some great ideas there.

Maybe burning hand cure wounds should cost 2 ki and you learn the spare the dying cantrip. This would put it more on par with shadow arts, where you get to learn a cantrip and the level 1 spells only cost 2 ki.

I like your level 6 idea a lot. Flavorful and not the same as the open hand monk ability.

For level 11, I'd probably limit the spell options because it seems too powerful to gain that many spell options. To make things simpler, perhaps you can cast fly for 4 ki. You also get a choice of either learning to cast fireball for 4 ki, or lesser restoration for 3 ki. A fire option or healing option.

For the second level 17 ability, I did think about the possibility of reincarnating or becoming young, but I am not sure the best way to implement that in a game.

Rfkannen
2015-04-25, 02:48 PM
Yeah, the tradition definitely needed some help, thus why I posted it here! You have some great ideas there.

Maybe burning hand cure wounds should cost 2 ki and you learn the spare the dying cantrip. This would put it more on par with shadow arts, where you get to learn a cantrip and the level 1 spells only cost 2 ki.

I like your level 6 idea a lot. Flavorful and not the same as the open hand monk ability.

For level 11, I'd probably limit the spell options because it seems too powerful to gain that many spell options. To make things simpler, perhaps you can cast fly for 4 ki. You also get a choice of either learning to cast fireball for 4 ki, or lesser restoration for 3 ki. A fire option or healing option.

For the second level 17 ability, I did think about the possibility of reincarnating or becoming young, but I am not sure the best way to implement that in a game.

The modifying class articles said that there were rules for how much ki it cost to cast a spell, and that all the subclasses were made with that. Use that.

Just have it so that when they reach venerable age they can at any time cast the reincarnation spell and return to young adult stage, would be funny to have them be kids maybe.

weaseldust
2015-04-25, 03:25 PM
EDIT: I see you had shadow monks edit the OP when I wasn't looking. I like the way you implemented flight. I don't really see the need for healing word, but it's not a problem.


Maybe burning hand cure wounds should cost 2 ki and you learn the spare the dying cantrip. This would put it more on par with shadow arts, where you get to learn a cantrip and the level 1 spells only cost 2 ki.

...

For level 11, I'd probably limit the spell options because it seems too powerful to gain that many spell options. To make things simpler, perhaps you can cast fly for 4 ki. You also get a choice of either learning to cast fireball for 4 ki, or lesser restoration for 3 ki. A fire option or healing option.

I bumped Burning Hands up 1 ki because I thought it was better than Cure Wounds, but I'm rethinking it now. You're probably right about Spare the Dying too. I also falsely believed there was a 2:1 ki-cost to spell-level ratio, but it looks like it's actually more like 2 ki for level 1 spells and an additional ki point for each additional level, so your ki values are more reasonable.


For the second level 17 ability, I did think about the possibility of reincarnating or becoming young, but I am not sure the best way to implement that in a game.

I'd go further than Rfkannen and have the monk always come back as a child of age about 10 (for humans; other races will have to adjust as appropriate), albeit one with their adult intelligence and ability scores, whenever they use the level 17 ability or if they die of old age. It's not an ability you'll have to use often, so it should have dramatic effects.

I put the Reincarnate spell in there before only because I thought it would be fun to use on other party members. I'm not sure whether you want to have the chance of changing race added to the level 17 ability too. It might add more of a feel of re-birth or it might take away from it, depending on the player.

fattybear
2015-04-25, 03:54 PM
EDIT: I see you had shadow monks edit the OP when I wasn't looking. I like the way you implemented flight. I don't really see the need for healing word, but it's not a problem.

I only added healing word just so there was another spell option since shadow arts gets 4 spells plus a cantrip.


I'd go further than Rfkannen and have the monk always come back as a child of age about 10 (for humans; other races will have to adjust as appropriate), albeit one with their adult intelligence and ability scores, whenever they use the level 17 ability or if they die of old age. It's not an ability you'll have to use often, so it should have dramatic effects.

Maybe if the player uses the rebirth feature and they are dead, they can choose to come back as a child or as their original self. If they die of old age, then they always reincarnate as a child. This is probably something the player would just want to discuss with the DM.


I put the Reincarnate spell in there before only because I thought it would be fun to use on other party members. I'm not sure whether you want to have the chance of changing race added to the level 17 ability too. It might add more of a feel of re-birth or it might take away from it, depending on the player.

Having the reincarnate spell would be pretty fun to have, especially since the level 17 ability will not be used too much (hopefully!). Having an expensive ki cost like 8 to 10 makes sense since the spell usually consumes 1000gp upon casting.

Demonic Spoon
2015-04-27, 01:23 PM
Out of curiosity, why even offer Healing Word if it takes an entire action to cast it? And maybe some other light-themed spell in lieu of one of the two healing spells that currently exists? The list of features seems fairly restricted; shadow monk has a lot more flexibility in his 3rd level feature than this I think, in a large part because you currently have 3 spells that largely fill the same function.

Maybe instead of Spare the Dying, use Light, and something light/fire-themed like burning hands?

Also, you should allow the same ki-to-slot-level scaling that element monks have to the damage spells like fireball


I haven't dug deep into the new features compared to the other subclasses balance wise, but on the surface this looks really solid now.

fattybear
2015-04-27, 01:28 PM
I agree with you on healing word actually and yesterday edited it out. Instead I included the sacred flame cantrip since that seemed to make a lot of sense flavor wise.

Demonic Spoon
2015-04-27, 01:28 PM
I agree with you on healing word actually and yesterday edited it out. Instead I included the sacred flame cantrip since that seemed to make a lot of sense flavor wise.

As of right now, what's written is spare the dying, sacred flame, healing word, and cure wounds.

fattybear
2015-04-27, 01:33 PM
Hah yea, just looked and accidentally edited out burning hands instead of healing word. Thanks for the heads up.

DracoKnight
2016-05-19, 08:47 PM
Just wanted to provide feedback on this:

One of my players used this from levels 1-10, before we party-wiped. This is excellently balanced, and while a made a few tweaks to it to fix what was broken, you did an excellent job!

I just wanted to commend you, because as someone who homebrews a lot of material, I recognize how hard it is to make sure that everything is in line with the currently published material. So, well done! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oops, I didn't realize the last post was that long ago. My apologies for my necromancy :smalleek:

Foxhound438
2016-05-22, 01:24 AM
Please, for the love of Pelor, DO NOT USE THE SPELL LEVEL + 1 PRICING METHOD!!!

there's a reason that way of 4 elements is considered "aweful", or "garbage" by almost everyone.

DracoKnight
2016-05-22, 04:07 AM
Please, for the love of Pelor, DO NOT USE THE SPELL LEVEL + 1 PRICING METHOD!!!

there's a reason that way of 4 elements is considered "aweful", or "garbage" by almost everyone.

What makes Four Elements awful is a couple of things in combination with each other:

1) ALL of their abilities cost Ki, unlike the other Monastic Traditions.

2) Their particularly good low-level abilities like fangs of the fire snake (1 Ki point to have 15' reach unarmed strikes that deal fire damage for the round) and water whip (BA 3d10 pull/prone) either have a great rider that burns through Ki like crazy, or got nerfed in Errata.

3) Most people I've talked to don't realize that the Monk is a short-rest based class. They get all of their Ki back on short rests. So as long as you're taking short rests, you should be fine.

NOW the thing that annoys me about the Way of the Four Elements is that the other two traditions have next to no abilities that cost Ki, but EVERYTHING that the Four Elements does costs Ki. That's why it's "worse".

fattybear
2016-05-26, 09:45 PM
Thanks, that is great to hear! Neat that it was actually used.



Just wanted to provide feedback on this:

One of my players used this from levels 1-10, before we party-wiped. This is excellently balanced, and while a made a few tweaks to it to fix what was broken, you did an excellent job!

I just wanted to commend you, because as someone who homebrews a lot of material, I recognize how hard it is to make sure that everything is in line with the currently published material. So, well done! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oops, I didn't realize the last post was that long ago. My apologies for my necromancy :smalleek:

DracoKnight
2016-05-26, 09:57 PM
Thanks, that is great to hear! Neat that it was actually used.

My player quite enjoyed it. Solid job! :smallsmile: