Compared to single-class characters, what tier is a...

[P.F.]

I know I'm not supposed to compare gestalt characters to single-class characters. I also understand the purpose of using an 'active/passive' combination, and the preference for SAD combinations. That said, I'm wondering, compared to a single-class character, particularly in the <14th level range, what tier would the following combinations come out as?

Monk//Rogue

Rogue//Fighter

Fighter//Paladin

Paladin//Ranger

Ranger//Rogue

[T.G. Oskar]

Monk||Rogue: Basically a Ninja, but with more stuff. Monk offers defensive qualities (better AC, best saves, SR, eventually DR, self-healing) while Rogue offers the skills and the offensive potential. On the other hand, there's very few synergies - Monks need four stats to work at the bare minimum (Dex, Con, Wis, Str) and Rogue could use a decent amount of Intelligence and Charisma, so you're forcing MAD; furthermore, Monk's mobility focus isn't still answered, and what the Rogue does is add a bunch of extra damage while on it. It does provide redundant Evasion which can be ACF'ed away - Invisible Fist helps a lot on that, while retaining Evasion. At most, it defaults to the higher of the two tiers - Tier 4 for Rogue, since it's just adding more stuff to the Rogue but providing little synergy.

Rogue||Fighter: You can achieve a limited amount of this combination through variant classes (SA Variant Fighter, Feat-based Variant Rogue). In short, you're shoring up the Rogue's combat capabilities with the Fighter's extra bonus feats, but you still rely on Rogue for out-of-combat action. You get better armor (which doesn't stack with Evasion), better weapons (a good point), better HD, combine the better of Fortitude and Reflex saves, but induce a bit of MAD: Fighter needs good Strength, Constitution and some Dexterity; Rogue needs high Dexterity and can use a bit of Int and Cha, so while you might dunk Charisma you should have at least some Int (13 is great for Combat Expertise and various maneuvers, so that helps). As with the earlier one, it defaults to the better of the two - Tier 4 for Rogue, but it's high Tier 4.

Fighter||Paladin: The Paladin is already MAD by default and gets pretty much all the Fighter gets, so in paper it's a worthless combination. However, it does provide the Paladin with one key element - extra feats to a HEAVILY feat-starved class. It's a combination that, taken to 6th level, can net you a solid character...but any further, and it starts to lag behind. Defaults to the better of the two (Tier 4 for Fighter), but if you follow the rules for the A-Game Paladin, you get a really, REALLY scary high Tier 3 (Bard-like buffing, Paladin and Wizard spells, Divine Spirit, plus a helluva bunch of feats that can be sacrificed a bit for Dungeon Crasher for even MORE utility). But, again: Tier 4 for Fighter, and it's no big change.

Paladin||Ranger: Interesting combo. The Paladin is already MAD, and this just makes it slightly MADder because it nixes a bit of the need for Intelligence but it forces dipping on Dexterity (or else ignore the combat styles). Ranger adds some few nice things, though, such as good Reflex saves, better skill points, a free combat style (if you limit yourself to Light armor, or Mithral Medium armor) and a bunch of other spells (which have little overlap, and only require as much Wisdom as the Paladin does). There is some complement, but not much synergy. Oh, and you get both a Mount AND an Animal Companion, so you get some decent pet support. Defaults to the better of the two - Tier 4 for Ranger. Sword of the Arcane Order, though, defaults the combo to Tier 3, moreso if you use A-Game Paladin as your Paladin side.

Ranger||Rogue: I like that one. You don't get proficiency in Medium Armor (otherwise, a Mithral Breastplate would be nice, though it might not be that necessary), and most of the things Rangers get synergize a lot with Rogues. You can, in a way, drop Strength and go strictly Dex/Con/Wis, get slightly better HD (the Ranger HD), and invest a bit on Int to get a lot of additional points. As a TWF specialist with full BAB and Sneak Attack, all you need is a way to invest on Invisibility (UMD!!) or a good enabler of SA damage to deal loads of damage. You also get a handful of spells, which means your need for UMD is lessened a bit. About the only combo I'd say increases a Tier, though it's borderline between low Tier 3 and high Tier 4 (it really depends on how well you can exploit UMD). Note - the better your Animal Companion is as a flanker, the more dangerous you are.

To be honest, unless you really aim to synergize or complement things that other classes lack, you'll usually remain in the same tier. Remember that the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is versatility (i.e., how many different kinds of Nukes I have, not the fact that my Nuke is better than yours or that I have more), and the difference between Tier 3 and Tier 4 is roughly the same.

[MightBeABook]

I'd strongly agree with basically everything T.G. Oskar said, with the caveat that Rogue//Fighter might also qualify as T3. A well-built Rogue//Fighter competes reasonably well with a Factotum or Martial Adept for versatility with careful UMD, and will usually be similarly strong/stronger in terms of raw combat ability. Building it around Dex at the expense of Strength could net you a pretty strong character.

[DarkSonic1337]

Any of the "Rouge+bonus feats" pairings should be getting Dex to damage and +2d6 sneak attack with the shadow blade feat and assassin's stance imo.

[Curmudgeon]

Any of the "Rouge+bonus feats" pairings should be getting Dex to damage and +2d6 sneak attack with the shadow blade feat and assassin's stance imo.
So your claim is that the best use for extra feats is to pretend to be a Swordsage?

:sigh:

[Der_DWSage]

So your claim is that the best use for extra feats is to pretend to be a Swordsage?

:sigh:

...Probably? It's not a bad use of those extra feats as a Rogue-type, especially if you stick Craven and...I forget the name, the 'You absolutely can't see me' stealth feat on top of them. And then go for two-weapon fighting. Though I'm curious-what would you do with them, Curmudgeon?

[Curmudgeon]

I'd use Fighter Bonus Feats to gain extra stealth capabilities as my first priority. Shadowdancer has one of the best Hide in Plain Sight versions, but it's expensive to qualify for. FBFs would supply the Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Reflexes feat requirements for a 1-level dip at level 8. For extra attacks I'd ignore the weak TWF feat line and go with Snap Kick.

Fighter Feats:
1. Dodge
2. Mobility
4. Spring Attack (worthwhile if the prerequisites are already required)
6. Combat Reflexes
8. Snap Kick (Tome of Battle, page 32; Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite obtained via Bracers of Striking: Magic of Faerûn, pages 155-156; or Fanged Ring: Dragon Magic, page 101)
10. Improved Trip
12. Knock-Down

Non-Fighter feats:
1. (Human) Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52)
1. Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, page 179)
3. Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17)
6. Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer, page 112)
9. Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, page 60)
12. Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, pages 80-81)

Status is more important than damage. Being unseen means you're untargetable. Making the enemy prone as a consequence of your damage and staggered as a consequence of your sneak attack removes their usefulness right away, before you kill them, without reducing your attacks. If you knock them down and allow them only a single action each round they can stand up (and do nothing else) or attack while prone at a penalty (and do nothing else).

[T.G. Oskar]

I'd strongly agree with basically everything T.G. Oskar said, with the caveat that Rogue//Fighter might also qualify as T3. A well-built Rogue//Fighter competes reasonably well with a Factotum or Martial Adept for versatility with careful UMD, and will usually be similarly strong/stronger in terms of raw combat ability. Building it around Dex at the expense of Strength could net you a pretty strong character.

The only thing that honestly smacks me as getting the combination close to T3 is UMD, but that can only take you so far. Sure, you get a LOT of class skills, but you'll be hard-pressed for Intelligence AND not-negative Charisma to have a decent chance of getting the ranks AND a fair bonus to UMD. Skill Focus can only take you so far.

That said, it depends. It'll beat the Factotum, since other than self-buffing and going nova with Cunning Action (sp?) or Iaijutsu Focus shenanigans, the class won't truly exceed in combat ability. Regarding Martial Adepts, there's where it gets muddy - Crusader isn't as focused on damage, Swordsage has better and nicer tricks but is roughly equal on combat potential, and a well-built Warblade (as well as the Rogue||Fighter would) utterly creams the gestalt build in about 2 turns. Where I can agree is that it can do a lot more: Trapfinding and UMD are specific to a few classes, and Swordsage lacks those - Crusader and Warblade also happen to lack stealth, and only barely get perception skills.

I see the distinction between T3 and T4 as a question of "how many things I can do well, whether I exceed on one or not?" I decided to default to the Rogue because anything you can do with it as a single-classed character is what you'll do with a Rogue||Fighter, since the latter merely adds to your combat capabilities, so it's really adding power. A Rogue can do fine in combat even with medium BAB (so as long as it finds ways to boost its attack bonus proper). Adding levels in Fighter only helps to add about 5 points of attack bonus, and maybe an additional boost to damage from choosing better weapons. What it does, overall, is fight better than a single-classed Rogue, but if you null the Rogue extra damage, the Rogue||Fighter will have to rely on its Fighter tricks to compensate.


Any of the "Rouge+bonus feats" pairings should be getting Dex to damage and +2d6 sneak attack with the shadow blade feat and assassin's stance imo.


So your claim is that the best use for extra feats is to pretend to be a Swordsage?

:sigh:


...Probably? It's not a bad use of those extra feats as a Rogue-type, especially if you stick Craven and...I forget the name, the 'You absolutely can't see me' stealth feat on top of them. And then go for two-weapon fighting. Though I'm curious-what would you do with them, Curmudgeon?

You mean Darkstalker?

Anyways - it's pretty obvious that the Rogue||Fighter is designed to deal maximum damage one way or another. Even feats that seem pointless like the Weapon Focus chain can add to the overall damage: sure, +2 to attack rolls and +4 to damage rolls only on core, or +4/+6 with Melee Weapon Mastery might not seem like much, but it adds to SA + Craven + Assassin's Stance + TWF (which is obviously where the build seems to be going) + Hunter's Mark wand. Maybe with a wand of Lion's Charge as well for pouncing TWF ravages.

Partially another reason why I pegged it to Tier 4. In the end, the first thing you think when adding Fighter to Rogue is "more damage", rather than "do more stuff". A Warblade/Rogue, on the other hand, is scary: that I'd set up as Tier 3 on a heartbeat.

P.S.:

I'd use Fighter Bonus Feats to gain extra stealth capabilities as my first priority. Shadowdancer has one of the best Hide in Plain Sight versions, but it's expensive to qualify for. FBFs would supply the Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Reflexes feat requirements for a 1-level dip at level 8. For extra attacks I'd ignore the weak TWF feat line and go with Snap Kick.

Fighter Feats:
1. Dodge
2. Mobility
4. Spring Attack (worthwhile if the prerequisites are already required)
6. Combat Reflexes
8. Snap Kick (Tome of Battle, page 32; Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite obtained via Bracers of Striking: Magic of Faerûn, pages 155-156; or Fanged Ring: Dragon Magic, page 101)
10. Improved Trip
12. Knock-Down

Non-Fighter feats:
1. (Human) Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52)
1. Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, page 179)
3. Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17)
6. Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer, page 112)
9. Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, page 60)
12. Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, pages 80-81)

Status is more important than damage. Being unseen means you're untargetable. Making the enemy prone as a consequence of your damage and staggered as a consequence of your sneak attack removes their usefulness right away, before you kill them, without reducing your attacks. If you knock them down and allow them only a single action each round they can stand up (and do nothing else) or attack while prone at a penalty (and do nothing else).

Planning on Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz for latter levels? It's good for when you lack a way to pounce. Shadowdancer doesn't work as a "theurge-like" class, so technically you can advance any of the two sides. Plus, knocking three people instead of one does some nice control.

[ben-zayb]

Not exactly tier-defining, but 1. Invisible Fist complements a sneaky rogue and 2. Dex-dumped Ranger with 2HF+Gauntlet/Unarmed TWF and Power Attack is viable.

[Curmudgeon]

Planning on Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz for latter levels? It's good for when you lack a way to pounce. Shadowdancer doesn't work as a "theurge-like" class, so technically you can advance any of the two sides. Plus, knocking three people instead of one does some nice control.
Probably not. Snap Kick already grants an extra attack, and it's not required to target the same opponent as the triggering strike. It also works with AoOs, which the Spring Attack line does not. I'd rather leverage being unseen from HiPS to screw with the enemies for more attacks, via Opportunistic Tactician (Dragon # 340, page 87): a nifty FBF letting me take a 5' step after an AoO. The idea is that I'm unseen and get a movement-provoked AoO for two attacks (the second one from Snap Kick), then take a 5' step (still unseen) and threaten a different area. Enemies will either have to go way around where they think I might be to avoid the AoOs, or get hit twice each.

[Petrocorus]

Probably not. Snap Kick already grants an extra attack, and it's not required to target the same opponent as the triggering strike. It also works with AoOs, which the Spring Attack line does not. I'd rather leverage being unseen from HiPS to screw with the enemies for more attacks, via Opportunistic Tactician (Dragon # 340, page 87): a nifty FBF letting me take a 5' step after an AoO. The idea is that I'm unseen and get a movement-provoked AoO for two attacks (the second one from Snap Kick), then take a 5' step (still unseen) and threaten a different area. Enemies will either have to go way around where they think I might be to avoid the AoOs, or get hit twice each.

That's really an interesting build. Would that be easier to use Dark Whisper Gnome instead of dipping Shadowdancer?

[lsfreak]

That's really an interesting build. Would that be easier to use Dark Whisper Gnome instead of dipping Shadowdancer?

Dark HiPS doesn't negate the concealment requirement of hiding and doesn't work in daylight, which makes it significantly weaker than Shadowdancer HiPS.

[P.F.]

To be honest, unless you really aim to synergize or complement things that other classes lack, you'll usually remain in the same tier.
I want to thank you especially for your cogent and helpful reply in standard English, your post had Exactly what I was looking for ...

Monk//Rogue: Still tier 4, but better than just Rogue

Rogue//Fighter: Still tier 4, but better than just Rogue

Fighter//Paladin: Upgrades the Paladin to tier 4

Paladin//Ranger: Navarre from Ladyhawke (tier 4 but good at what he does)

Ranger//Rogue: Tier 4 or almost 3 and a better archer than either

So essentially only one of these is probably close to being almost as good as the Bard? Possibly the fighter//rogue, if it can get both enough synergy and diversity out of rogue tricks combined with fighter feats. Is there any good reason not to just allow my players to mash two of these "less than half as good as tier 3" classes together?

[JDL]

Start with Rogue 1, dip Fighter 2, dip Ranger 2, prestige Assassin 2, prestige Shadowdancer 4, back to Assassin 4. You've got a solid Tier 3 character at level 14 with ungodly high Reflex saves, better BAB than a rogue at the same level, and enough feats and skill ranks to be quite versatile, sacrificing 3d6 sneak attack and a handful of extra skill points in exchange.

[atemu1234]

So your claim is that the best use for extra feats is to pretend to be a Swordsage?

:sigh:

Yes. It is.

[T.G. Oskar]

So essentially only one of these is probably close to being almost as good as the Bard? Possibly the fighter//rogue, if it can get both enough synergy and diversity out of rogue tricks combined with fighter feats.

If anyone, it'd be Paladin||Ranger, because it has many things to its benefit, and actual spellcasting.

Fighter||Rogue is decent, but it's still quite mundane on its actions. Rogue only has access to UMD, but it can do a lot of stuff without it. It does imply that you'll have a large amount of skill points (and hence, access to many skills and skill tricks), but you need to focus in the same way a Rogue would: either the trapbuster, the face, the scout, or a mixture of them in certain proportions. Once that is dealt with, combat is handled via the Fighter.


Is there any good reason not to just allow my players to mash two of these "less than half as good as tier 3" classes together?

Depends on whether one of the players is better optimizer than the rest, and the level of optimization of the rest of the group isn't that great...let's say there's just several.

Monk||Rogue, probably not, unless the player is a good optimizer and goes for maximum damage output. With things like partially-charged wands with insanely high UMD, Improved Natural Attack, a Large humanoid creature and the right stats, you could have a character that deals so much damage that it can one-hit anything at-level with one punch, and it still has 4 more hits in case it survives. However, that's a pretty specific build that might affect the rest, and it comes with sacrificing something.

Fighter||Rogue relies on proper planning. You have to develop your combat style, and what skills to specialize into. It's like optimizing Fighter and Rogue separately, and finding what of one side complements the other.

Fighter||Paladin relies on how well you take advantage of bonus feats. As I mentioned, the "A-Game Paladin" build (Illumian Paladin 20 with Harmonious Knight subst. level, Mystic Fire Knight subst. level and Divine Spirit ACF, plus From Smite to Song and Sword of the Arcane Order feats) is the near-absolute limit of Paladin optimization. By that moment, you're already doing most of what a Bard does. What Fighter brings is just more feats, so that you can use the level-based feats for different reasons. If you have that, then you shouldn't worry about the Fighter side at all...

Paladin||Ranger at its top optimization level, though, is plain scary. You have Mystic Ranger at one side, and "A-Game Paladin" on the other. You have two sets of spells, both of them at near-full CL, AND with up to 5th level Wizard spells tacked in (thanks to Mystic Ranger and Sword of the Arcane Order also applying to Ranger spells). Paladin dabbles in Bard and grants a few skills the Ranger lacks, while the Ranger nets you a secondary fighting style (as long as you wear Light or Mithral Medium armor) and an animal companion just for kicks (not sure if Mystic Ranger replaces it, though). That kind of combination blows the Bard away, and even a moderately optimized Bard - only a truly optimized Bard (i.e. going for Dragonfire Inspiration and an alternative damage source, plus Words of Creation to boost Inspire Courage beyond +12, AND choosing spells correctly) can stand up, and even then, it's a close match.

Ranger||Rogue is much like Fighter||Paladin, but at top levels of optimization, it can be much worse. I mean, chuckling somewhere around 8 flasks per level because you have TWF for free, Swift Haste as part of your list of spells, probably Quick Draw and full BAB (4 + 3 from TWF + 1 from Swift Haste) dealing full SA damage from any other element is almost as deadly as optimizing damage for a Monk||Rogue, and you can STILL get a hefty amount of skill points and a breadth of skills to be a scary skill-monkey (support for Hide/Move Silently and Survival, plus full use of Disable Device, plus UMD, plus more Knowledge skills).

So yeah - based on that, if you've got 5 players, and one of them is a good optimizer choosing Paladin||Ranger and the rest choosing other combinations, then it'll cause as many problems as having someone optimize Wizard on your average table. There'll be a good gulf between them. Mostly, just exercise your best judgment.