What spells together amount to a Utopian society?

[Tvtyrant]

Given a fairly egalitarian society, what magical abilities do you believe could be crucial to a Utopian society? Things like flight, ability to generate food, etc.

[TheCountAlucard]

Probably the most necessary spells to enact an actual Utopia would be the magical workings of the epic variety, since some of the biggest obstacles to such a world lie in the human condition.

Teleportation circles, eternal resetting traps of Create Food and Water, et cetera., are really all just table dressing.

[Maglubiyet]

...some of the biggest obstacles to such a world lie in the human condition.

Or more likely, human nature. Petty squabbles and jealousies tend to fragment even the tightest groups over time.

[TheCountAlucard]

Or more likely, human nature. Petty squabbles and jealousies tend to fragment even the tightest groups over time.
Human nature is part of the human condition. :smallwink:

[Keltest]

Or more likely, human nature. Petty squabbles and jealousies tend to fragment even the tightest groups over time.

Perhaps we should start by defining utopia then, or at least "close enough" for the purposes of this conversation.

[Tvtyrant]

Perhaps we should start by defining utopia then, or at least "close enough" for the purposes of this conversation.

I'm aiming at "production and labor being relegated to choice instead of necessity, society designed to provide personal fulfillment through valid options." So someone who wants to spend their lives playing chess can, but so can a hunter.

[Maglubiyet]

I'm aiming at "production and labor being relegated to choice instead of necessity, society designed to provide personal fulfillment through valid options." So someone who wants to spend their lives playing chess can, but so can a hunter.

Birth control spells. Without that, the population would always end up overwhelming the carrying capacity of the society.

Plentiful food means plentiful babies. Plentiful babies for long enough eventually leads to scarce food.

[theNater]

Well, people can live as long as you've got food, water, and shelter readily available. I wouldn't call it a utopia unless it also included waste removal, medical care, emergency response, and conflict resolution.


Plentiful food means plentiful babies. Plentiful babies for long enough eventually leads to scarce food.
Can't exactly run out of magically produced food; but the magical production of food does need to scale up effectively infinitely.

EDIT: Need tool production automated as well; can't play chess without a chess set.

[Maglubiyet]

Can't exactly run out of magically produced food; but the magical production of food does need to scale up effectively infinitely.

As does living space. In short order the world would be overrun with people.

[Maglubiyet]

Populations grow exponentially. In the absence of infant mortality, predation, disease, starvation, etc. any species will quickly multiply beyond the ability of the environment to sustain it, humans included.

At the growth rate currently exhibited in some developing nations, like Nigeria (r=0.024), humans could go from a population of 10 million to 1.6 quadrillion in 500 years. And that's a country where the top killer is malaria and people still die from tuberculosis. Growth rate would be much higher if those problems were solved.

[Red Fel]

One spell. Just one spell is all you need to create a utopian society. Mindrape.

Yeah, all joking aside, you can use Create Food/Water, True Creation, and Fabricate to create a post-scarcity economy, with food, water, and raw and processed materials in infinite supply for all. You can use Fly and Teleport Without Error to break down the walls of the world, with everyone able to go everywhere and everything being where it's needed instantly. You can use scrying and divination spells to foresee natural disasters and prevent calamities. You can even use spells to reshape the planet, or create entire new worlds, to ensure that overpopulation will never become a problem. (If in doubt, just check out the Tippyverse for how an entire civilization can be built using only a handful of spells.)

You can do everything, and people will still be people. They'll still find something to fight about. If there is no scarcity of resources, they'll fight over land. If land is abundant, they'll fight over borders. If borders become meaningless, they'll fight over ideals.

Unless you stop them, completely. Unless you actively remove that tendency. There is a reason that some of the biggest dystopian settings boil down to "perfect world, but no freedom." As is seen in many of these settings, the "perfect world" element disappears as soon as you introduce that freedom.

Step one is Mindrape. Make an entire population that actually wants what you're selling. Step two is everything else.

[LokiRagnarok]

Okay, you may want to look at this:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

Basically, it says that people first and foremost desire physical necesseties like food, water, sleep etc. Once this is taken of, come things like shelter, company etc.

Find a way to satisfy all those desires and you may have your Utopia.

[Gnoman]

Populations grow exponentially. In the absence of infant mortality, predation, disease, starvation, etc. any species will quickly multiply beyond the ability of the environment to sustain it, humans included.

At the growth rate currently exhibited in some developing nations, like Nigeria (r=0.024), humans could go from a population of 10 million to 1.6 quadrillion in 500 years. And that's a country where the top killer is malaria and people still die from tuberculosis. Growth rate would be much higher if those problems were solved.

By all appearances, as infant mortality goes down and life expectancies go up, birth rate drops dramatically - a century ago in the US families with 15+ children were fairly normal - now they get "point and laugh" TV shows. This is why most of the developed world only have positive growth rates due to immigration -the natural birth rate is lower than the death+emigration rate.

[khadgar567]

One spell. Just one spell is all you need to create a utopian society. Mindrape.



I agree as well nice meta magicked an permanent mind rape and you have your utopia just don't forget to apply any new comers so no one try to rebel
edit before forgetting use contingency mine rape to re mind rape the problem people if they brake the first one

[the_david]

You'd need someone who's capable of casting detect evil all day long and a helm of opposite alignment...

Wait, does that actually work? I know it's a slow process but imagine a paladin doing this at the entrance to a city. Anyone going in or out has to be screened and if evil has to put on the helm. Sure, you're forcing someone to change against his will, but if it's the law... The saving throw might be a bit low though.

[theNater]

You'd need someone who's capable of casting detect evil all day long and a helm of opposite alignment...

Wait, does that actually work? I know it's a slow process but imagine a paladin doing this at the entrance to a city. Anyone going in or out has to be screened and if evil has to put on the helm. Sure, you're forcing someone to change against his will, but if it's the law... The saving throw might be a bit low though.
A spell to mask alignment will beat this technique; a spell that falsifies alignment can cause it to backfire spectacularly. Detect Evil is not a substitute for good judgement.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A resetting trap of Genesis, keyed to provide a personal demiplane to each newborn human. With complex resetting traps of Fabricate and Limited Wish or Wish, you can automatically create any magic items, including resetting traps of Create Food and Water and such. You can use traps to grow plants in the personal demiplanes, to keep up with the 180-foot growth stages. Ambitious people could grow entire wild jungles in a matter of hours, using high-speed resetting traps of Genesis, Plant Growth and True Creation (for seeds).

[Jay R]

Well, obviously it wouldn't be any spells that we can duplicate technologically today, since we don't in fact have a utopia.

[Maglubiyet]

Well, obviously it wouldn't be any spells that we can duplicate technologically today, since we don't in fact have a utopia.

I think that might have more to do with an imbalance in resource distribution and usage than the lack of the technology to produce enough for everyone.

[theNater]

I think that might have more to do with an imbalance in resource distribution and usage than the lack of the technology to produce enough for everyone.
Currently, technology doesn't produce by itself. There's still human hands involved in the growing of food, building of houses, collecting of garbage, etc.

[Wartex1]

However, spells can produce pretty much every need that people could have, and you never need to worry about not being able to sustain a growing population because more people = more casters. You also don't have to worry about running out of space because of the various planes, some of which are infinite.

[Eloel]

A spell to mask alignment will beat this technique; a spell that falsifies alignment can cause it to backfire spectacularly. Detect Evil is not a substitute for good judgement.

AMF + Cleric of Mystra with any of the mind-reading spells. Only other clerics of mystra can go around it, so a cult of Mystra would probably start forming.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If you have enough spellcasters (or, rather, enough with Craft Wondrous Item, since you'd need fewer of them them) you can do this really easily.

Level 0-1 Spells
Endure Elements -- Livable conditions
Unseen Servant -- Manual labor
Comprehend Languages -- Communication
Create Water -- Water
Goodberry -- Food

Later spells give Shelter easily (even just Rope Trick will do)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Tier 0 utopia: Mindrape. "Unhappy? What is that?"
Tier 1 utopia: resetting traps of Genesis and Wish. "Just a minute, while I grow this new plane I've been thinking about."
Tier 2 utopia: resetting traps of True Creation, Teleportation Circles to other planes. "Let's pop over to Arborea for a picnic."
Tier 3 utopia: resetting traps of Create Food and Water, spellcasters with Magnificent Mansion and Greater Teleport. "Damn, out of teleports, let me conjure up a bedroom."
Tier 4 utopia: spellcasters with Create Food and Water, Unseen Servant, and Leomund's Tiny Hut. "Well isn't this a fun holiday!? I told you we should've saved for a Greater Teleport!"
Tier 5 utopia: necropolitans. "So I don't need food, rest or air... doesn't mean the bills don't stack up!"
Tier 6 utopia: using Skill Focus (profession (farmer)). "Looks like we'll have something to eat some time soon... nevermind, the wheat won initiative."

Accurate?

[Eloel]

Tier 6 utopia: using Skill Focus (profession (farmer)). "Looks like we'll have something to eat some time soon... nevermind, the wheat won initiative."


How is that a utopia?

[theNater]

AMF + Cleric of Mystra with any of the mind-reading spells. Only other clerics of mystra can go around it, so a cult of Mystra would probably start forming.
Because "certain spells...remain unaffected by Antimagic Field", it's simply a matter of a spellcaster researching a spell that is unaffected by AMF and counters whichever mind-reading spells the cleric is using.

Magic is always beatable by higher-level magic. Because of this, there is no spell or combination of spells which are a substitute for good judgement.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How is that a utopia?
Exactly. That's why I think it reflects tier 6 classes.

[Frozen_Feet]

If you don't actually specify a setting or game, this discussion is useless, because "magic" and "spells" are buzzwords which could mean or do anything. And if that's the case, the only spell you need is "Create Utopia".

Otherwise, the question you're asking is "which technologies are essential for an Utopian society?", and that question hasn't been answered yet. There might not even be a single answer - you have to define utopia more clearly. A stable hunter-gathering society which lives in perfect balance with its environment is utopic just a high-tech post-scarcity one where everyone lives happily ever after.

[BayardSPSR]

OP seems to sort-of mean a post-scarcity economy, except not? The post-scarcity spells are easy to identify, at least, despite the presence of Reverend Malthus in the thread.

[Red Fel]

Otherwise, the question you're asking is "which technologies are essential for an Utopian society?", and that question hasn't been answered yet.

I thought I answered that reasonably well. You need magic/technologies that provide food, water, raw and manufactured materials, in order to achieve a post-scarcity economy. You need magic/technologies that enable the instantaneous, or at least prompt, transport of people and goods from place to place, thus minimizing the transaction cost and contributing to the post-scarcity nature of the economy. You need magic/technologies that allow you to expand available habitable land, in order to accommodate the increasing population. You need magic/technologies that allow you to see/communicate across distances and, ideally, forward in time, in order to spread information and be aware of impending danger. I failed to mention it, but you need magic/technologies that recover injuries and heal/prevent sickness. And you need magic/technology that brainwashes the masses into being contented despite having every need met by magic/technology.

Not all that much, when you look at it.

[Milo v3]

Massive scale charm person-y magic would make a rather utopian place, simply from everyone taking what everyone else says in the best possible way.

[Frozen_Feet]

I thought I answered that reasonably well. You need magic/technologies that provide food, water, raw and manufactured materials, in order to achieve a post-scarcity economy. You need magic/technologies that enable the instantaneous, or at least prompt, transport of people and goods from place to place, thus minimizing the transaction cost and contributing to the post-scarcity nature of the economy. You need magic/technologies that allow you to expand available habitable land, in order to accommodate the increasing population. You need magic/technologies that allow you to see/communicate across distances and, ideally, forward in time, in order to spread information and be aware of impending danger. I failed to mention it, but you need magic/technologies that recover injuries and heal/prevent sickness. And you need magic/technology that brainwashes the masses into being contented despite having every need met by magic/technology.

Not all that much, when you look at it.

You answered it reasonably well for a post-scarcity, ever-expanding society.

An utopia doesn't need to be either. Population growth, for example, is something you can simply stop at a reasonably cost-efficient equilibrium, thus obviating need for instant transportation.

[Tvtyrant]

Couldn't Imaskari style extradimensional spaces also obviate a lot of the crowding issues? If you get a free Magnificent Mansion when you want one you never feel overtaxed or sleepless. You pull a lever and the use activated item instantly makes you food, water and shelter.

[Maglubiyet]

Polymorphing the entire population into otters. Seriously, have you ever watched those guys sliding around on their bellies? They're awesome!

An epic-level spell that would prevent kender from existing.

25-year lifespan before being Reincarnated into a new form.

Government-sponsored Create Alcoholic Beverages spells + Cure Hangover spells.

Free faerie dragons for everyone (Euphoria breath!)

[Roxxy]

Birth control spells. Without that, the population would always end up overwhelming the carrying capacity of the society.

Plentiful food means plentiful babies. Plentiful babies for long enough eventually leads to scarce food.Actually, plentiful food tends to reduce birth rates, because it coincides with a higher standard of living, and wealthier people have fewer children because of lower death rates, higher costs of raising them, and less need for children to support them in the elder years.


Populations grow exponentially. In the absence of infant mortality, predation, disease, starvation, etc. any species will quickly multiply beyond the ability of the environment to sustain it, humans included.Real world observation has very thoroughly disproven this. As a nation's infant morality rate drops and fewer people die from illness or disease, populations increase massively at first, but eventually level out and then decrease, as people don't need so many children when they expect all of them to grow to adulthood, and children are expensive and time consuming to raise. That's why Europe, Canada, Australia, and, very recently, America have birth rates below the 2.1 needed to sustain a modern population through live birth. The evidence pretty decisively shows that longer lived populations with plentiful food and less disease tend to shrink in the abscence of immigration because they don't have a whole lot of kids.


At the growth rate currently exhibited in some developing nations, like Nigeria (r=0.024), humans could go from a population of 10 million to 1.6 quadrillion in 500 years. And that's a country where the top killer is malaria and people still die from tuberculosis. Growth rate would be much higher if those problems were solved.America used to have such massive growth rates. We don't anymore. Developing nations eventually develop.

[Maglubiyet]

Actually, plentiful food tends to reduce birth rates, because it coincides with a higher standard of living, and wealthier people have fewer children because of lower death rates, higher costs of raising them, and less need for children to support them in the elder years.


You still need safe and effective methods of birth control for this to happen. Babies don't just stop coming once mom and dad are wealthy. My suggestion is for a Cause Temporary Infertility spell.

[Cazero]

You still need safe and effective methods of birth control for this to happen. Babies don't just stop coming once mom and dad are wealthy. My suggestion is for a Cause Temporary Infertility spell.

Abstinence. Exactly one case of not being a perfectly effective birth-control method in all of human history !

Furthermore, every female in existence already casts the spell you are mentionning as an extraordinary ability on themsleves on a regular basis, so you don't even need to make it a full-time abstinence.

Basically, all you need is a society where most individuals are able to show basic restraint. No way a society without that can reach utopia status.

[Maglubiyet]

Abstinence. Exactly one case of not being a perfectly effective birth-control method in all of human history !

Furthermore, every female in existence already casts the spell you are mentionning as an extraordinary ability on themsleves on a regular basis, so you don't even need to make it a full-time abstinence.

Basically, all you need is a society where most individuals are able to show basic restraint. No way a society without that can reach utopia status.

An abstinent utopia is no utopia.

[Red Fel]

An abstinent utopia is no utopia.

It is with Mindrape. Notice how we keep coming back to that?

As Frozen Feet pointed out, all of the stuff that I (and others) suggested - abundant food, space, etc. - is only true if you define utopia as post-scarcity and basically stop there. A utopia, generally, is a community with near-perfect or perfect qualities. But what really defines a utopia is that the inhabitants are all genuinely contented with it. No matter how good the world is, if the people fight against it, it's no utopia. Heck, a Planet of the Lotus Eaters is a form of utopia, in that regard.

Some mass mind control that forces people to be genuinely happy with their lot - whatever that might be - is all you really need to form a utopia. People could live like kings or like paupers, but if they're genuinely happy about it, that's utopia. At the very least, that level of mind control is the bare minimum.

And yes, I suppose that mind control could include abstinence programming. You know, if that's your thing. I don't judge. Out loud. Often.

[LudicSavant]

A key point that others have raised is that societies require cultural adaptations, not just for the technology to achieve one to be there. For instance, we currently have the technology to make essentially all digital goods and information available to everyone with an internet connection who wants it (e.g. turning things like information and software into post-scarcity resources), but we don't do that because of cultural limitations that enforce artificial scarcity.


Or more likely, human nature. Petty squabbles and jealousies tend to fragment even the tightest groups over time.

I tend to be deeply skeptical when people say that something can't happen because of "human nature." A lot of things in history were traditionally argued to be "part of human nature" until they were abolished by the culture (or, conversely, said to be incompatible with human nature, until they were implemented by the culture).

Most of the time, when people say "human nature" it would be more accurate to say "in line with our cultural norms."


Plentiful food means plentiful babies.

Meanwhile,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Birth_rate_figures_for_countries.PNG

Instead consider factors like the importance of children as part of the labor force, availability of family planning services, costs of raising children, infant mortality rates, availability of pension systems or something similar, average marriage age, religious or cultural norms, or availability of birth control methods.

[Maglubiyet]

A lot of things in history were traditionally argued to be "part of human nature" until they were abolished by the culture (or, conversely, said to be incompatible with human nature, until they were implemented by the culture).

Scratching my head to think of a single thing that's been abolished from human nature. We've got all the same vices and drama they depicted 2000 years ago. Greed, envy, desire, pride, anger, laziness, gluttony...

[LudicSavant]

Scratching my head to think of a single thing that's been abolished from human nature.

That is not what I said. I said that a lot of things that are identified as basic human nature would be more accurately classified as cultural norms.

[Eloel]

That is not what I said. I said that a lot of things that are identified as basic human nature would be more accurately classified as cultural norms.

You'd do better if you provided an example.

[LudicSavant]

You'd do better if you provided an example.

Okay, sure. War, poverty, and superstition are often argued to be inseparable from civilization because it's "human nature," using many of the same arguments people used to make for saying that slavery was inseparable from civilization.

There were also constant assertions of "human nature" in the debates surrounding women's rights, conflating cultural gender roles with the actual nature of the sex. This goes so deep that we had things like "the hysterical woman" once being a common medical condition (this went far beyond simply saying women were more emotional, look it up). In fact, there are still many clear examples of "culturally specific disorders" today, such as Latah.

These arguments almost never include anything resembling an attempt to demonstrate that something or other is a consistent physical constraint. They tend to just assume that it is because it's the kind of thing that makes sense to whoever's saying it. Kind of like "more food means more babies" might make intuitive sense to some people, but isn't panned out by any of the data we have.

[Maglubiyet]

Okay, sure. War, poverty, and superstition are often argued to be inseparable from civilization because it's "human nature," using many of the same arguments people used to make for saying that slavery was inseparable from civilization.

There were also constant assertions of "human nature" in the debates surrounding women's rights, conflating cultural gender roles with the actual nature of the sex. This goes so deep that we had things like "the hysterical woman" once being a common medical condition.

These arguments almost never include anything resembling an attempt to demonstrate that something or other is a consistent physical constraint. They tend to just assume that it is because it's the kind of thing that makes sense to whoever's saying it. Kind of like "more food means more babies" might make intuitive sense to some people, but isn't panned out by any of the data we have.

Well, since war, poverty, slavery, and superstition are daily constants, it's hard to see how that makes your point.

In ecology, more food pretty much always leads to more babies. That's not made up...plenty of data.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Scratching my head to think of a single thing that's been abolished from human nature. We've got all the same vices and drama they depicted 2000 years ago. Greed, envy, desire, pride, anger, laziness, gluttony...
Those are very, very generic words you're using... sure, in those terms, human nature hasn't changed. However, what LudicSavant is saying, is that the things considered part of 'human nature' have changed. Quote: "A lot of things in history were traditionally argued to be "part of human nature" until they were abolished by the culture" (emphasis mine).

The idea that white people would always have to be 'on top' of, or in charge of, black (or non-white) people, was pretty mainstream for a good time. The same with men and women, various sexual orientations, religions, ideologies, unmarried people, red-haired people and so on. In some parts of the world, you may find clues that this 'ranking' is not part of 'human nature'. Various groups can co-exist in peace; 'moral decay' is not ruining society and so on*. In other words: it is not inherent to human nature that a group x must have a lower status, by birth (and I'm specifically talking about by birth here), than group y. The idea that you can scientifically prove, say, white superiority, has been discarded completely (disproven, as far as I know).

Now, you can zoom out and say 'yes, but the tendency to form groups x and y hasn't changed!' Okay, maybe it hasn't, but those specific things, once said to be part of human nature, have changed.


*The complaining about 'moral decay' hasn't gone away, though :smalltongue:.

[LudicSavant]

Well, since war, poverty, slavery, and superstition are daily constants, it's hard to see how that makes your point.

In ecology, more food pretty much always leads to more babies. That's not made up...plenty of data.

If you lived in America in the 1800s, doctors would make fun of you if you didn't believe female hysteria was cultural rather than natural. They would even provide piles of literature as evidence. That's not a daily constant anymore.

Also, slavery is a daily constant for you? Really? I get that people talk about things like "wage slavery" or involuntary workforces in prisons and the like, but most recognize that there are a few rather notable differences between that and the kind of institutionalized slavery that has been all but completely abolished from the world. As hideous as illegal trafficking is it doesn't even compare to how things used to be. We have taken great strides from "this is part of the bones of civilization" to "this is illegal everywhere in the world."

[Cazero]

Also, slavery is a daily constant for you? Really? I get that people talk about things like "wage slavery" or involuntary workforces in prisons and the like, but most recognize that there are a few rather notable differences between that and the kind of institutionalized slavery that has been all but completely abolished from the world.

Let's be fair on that one : it may be illegal, but it still happens. Wich doesn't make it part of human nature in any way, shape or form.
If the concept of slavery was abhorrent enough to warrant global illegality, it stands to reason that it cannot be part of human nature. By definition, human nature would be something that applies to every human.

[Roxxy]

You still need safe and effective methods of birth control for this to happen. Babies don't just stop coming once mom and dad are wealthy. My suggestion is for a Cause Temporary Infertility spell.I can easily see that. If you understand the body enough to use magic to stitch it back together, it shouldn't be hard to cause and remove infertility.


Well, since war, poverty, slavery, and superstition are daily constants, it's hard to see how that makes your point.We have not extricated these things from humanity, and I doubt we will any time soon, but one cannot deny that we have made a lot of strides. The truth is that we aren't exactly a bunch of angels, but we aren't selfish demons, either. We are something in between.


In ecology, more food pretty much always leads to more babies. That's not made up...plenty of data.There is also plenty of data to show that humans tend to have more children when they need more hands in the fields and a lot of the children will die, and less children when there is less labor to do and all the children are expected to see adulthood. It isn't a linear mathematical equation where more food = more babies, so far as humans are concerned. What happens in other species doesn't really matter, because we have observed that our own species clearly follows different trends than those other species.


Let's be fair on that one : it may be illegal, but it still happens. Wich doesn't make it part of human nature in any way, shape or form.
If the concept of slavery was abhorrent enough to warrant global illegality, it stands to reason that it cannot be part of human nature. By definition, human nature would be something that applies to every human.One could argue that human nature is to say one thing, but either be unable to enforce it, do the other thing unwittingly (which I think is more common than is given credence), or do the other thing intentionally.

[LudicSavant]

I can easily see that. If you understand the body enough to use magic to stitch it back together, it shouldn't be hard to cause and remove infertility. You don't even need to make up a new spell to accomplish this. Ancient cultures had all kinds of methods of birth control, and many spells already in the books would complement these or allow new options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control

[Rowan Wolf]

eternal resetting traps of Create Food and Water For some reason I am picturing the box trap with as stick and string.

[Maglubiyet]

What happens in other species doesn't really matter, because we have observed that our own species clearly follows different trends than those other species.

Only recently and only in some areas.

The J-curve is pretty standard in population growth for any species. Also fairly common are the zig-zagging crashes that happen afterwards.

[goto124]

You don't even need to make up a new spell to accomplish this. Ancient cultures had all kinds of methods of birth control, and many spells already in the books would complement these or allow new options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control

Spells would be more reliable and effective though, maybe?

[Cazero]

Only recently and only in some areas.

The J-curve is pretty standard in population growth for any species. Also fairly common are the zig-zagging crashes that happen afterwards.

The "recently" matching a few generations gap with a massive drop in mortality rate, and the "some areas" matching every area on the globe where that drop in mortality happened. I think we can assert with confidence that unlike every other animal species, the human specie doesn't need to overpopulate itself to starvation before addressing the issue of "too much babies".

[Maglubiyet]

The "recently" matching a few generations gap with a massive drop in mortality rate, and the "some areas" matching every area on the globe where that drop in mortality happened. I think we can assert with confidence that unlike every other animal species, the human specie doesn't need to overpopulate itself to starvation before addressing the issue of "too much babies".

Tell that to the Easter Islanders, the Vikings in Greenland, and Rwandans.

EDIT:

Also, slavery is a daily constant for you? Really? I get that people talk about things like "wage slavery" or involuntary workforces in prisons and the like, but most recognize that there are a few rather notable differences between that and the kind of institutionalized slavery that has been all but completely abolished from the world. As hideous as illegal trafficking is it doesn't even compare to how things used to be. We have taken great strides from "this is part of the bones of civilization" to "this is illegal everywhere in the world."

I'm glad you feel that slavery has been abolished.

[Frozen_Feet]

...religious or cultural norms, or availability of birth control methods.

To be frank, these seem to be more important to the decline of birthrates in 1st world countries than most of the other things listed. "Religious and cultural norms", in this case, specifically referring to abundance and societal pressure towards higher academic education.

I base this notion on subpopulations which have resisted the decline of birthrates: people of low education, and people from religious minorities with notable negative attitutes towards contraception.

These two are even linked: people with low academic education get more kids, because they fail to use contraception efficiently. Why? Because academic education selects for higher general intelligence, it follows most of those who fall out the loop tend to be less-than-smart. So even though means for contraception are available, they don't think to use them, or use them wrong.

The academic people, on the other hand, use contraception too efficiently. When contraception is easily available and kids would get in the way of one's career or academic ambitions, smarter people opt out. When having kids is not a priority, kids tend not to happen. And it's not just the number of kids that's declining - it's the amount of sex, too. Hilariously, modern people tend to have a greater number of sexual partners, yet still have less actual sex. Too many other distractions around, I guess.

On the other hand, what various religious show is that prioritizing careers or academics isn't just about the cost of raising children, or other economic factors. There are several such minorities with noticeably higher economic and academic status than the norm, yet they still breed like rabbits.

[LudicSavant]

I'm glad you feel that slavery has been abolished.

You seem to have a really frustrating habit of selectively misreading whatever I say. First you twist "lots of things that have been traditionally claimed to be basic human nature aren't" to "things get abolished from human nature." Now you're twisting "a kind of institutionalized slavery has been mostly abolished" (complete with me acknowledging surviving modern forms) to "slavery has been abolished."

It's disingenuous as hell. Please stop it.

At no point was it said that slavery was abolished, and indeed it would be irrelevant to the conversation. In fact, if there is even one culture with no slavery, that is sufficient to identify it as a part of cultural norms rather than human nature. Once again, my point is that you should be cautious of attributing things to human nature without evidence, whether it's your ideas about how ecology should work or your ideas about the behavioral limitations of human societies.


If the concept of slavery was abhorrent enough to warrant global illegality, it stands to reason that it cannot be part of human nature. By definition, human nature would be something that applies to every human.

[Kami2awa]

Calm Emotions.

[Maglubiyet]

Once again, my point is that you should be cautious of attributing things to human nature without evidence, whether it's your ideas about how ecology should work or your ideas about the behavioral limitations of human societies.

There's quite a large body of evidence RE: ecology and population growth. I didn't make any of that up. Unless you're suggesting that all of the journal articles on the topic are mistaken.

And if there's any evidence that we humans can manage to overcome our chronic, perpetual problems of things like pride, greed, desire, rage, gluttony, covetousness, and addiction for more than short spans, I'd LOVE to see it. Point out the society that is free from these problems and I'll gladly concede the point.

[Wartex1]

There aren't societies without those, however, there also aren't societies without good things. Charity, kindness, care, goodwill, patience, understanding, grace, and mercy are all examples.

[Maglubiyet]

There aren't societies without those, however, there also aren't societies without good things. Charity, kindness, care, goodwill, patience, understanding, grace, and mercy are all examples.

No doubt. We'd have a hard time without them. Every society has all of these things along with the others I listed.

I just think a utopia would require more than window dressing and material benefits. It's usually not the lack of resources that makes life unpleasant.

[TheCountAlucard]

And sometimes the good thing is bad in a bad context, or a bad thing is good in a good context. People are generally pretty quick to call love a good thing, but it's picked up quite the reputation over the years for leading to things like jealousy, obsession, et cetera.

[khadgar567]

Scratching my head to think of a single thing that's been abolished from human nature. We've got all the same vices and drama they depicted 2000 years ago. Greed, envy, desire, pride, anger, laziness, gluttony...
well hate to hijack your spell Maglubiyet but I at least ad stubbornness as a vile virtue that may need its own book


We have not extricated these things from humanity, and I doubt we will any time soon, but one cannot deny that we have made a lot of strides. The truth is that we aren't exactly a bunch of angels, but we aren't selfish demons, either. We are something in between.


I agree with you mate sometimes you gotta fall in dark side to really see the truth

Calm Emotions.
useful in every situation

[LudicSavant]

There's quite a large body of evidence RE: ecology and population growth. I didn't make any of that up. Unless you're suggesting that all of the journal articles on the topic are mistaken. This is getting old fast. I've never seen you actually cite any specific sources for anything. You just keep saying that sources are out there that back you up, in the face of people posting specific references that refute you.

Also, birth rate and population growth are not even close to the same thing in ecology. I would think that someone claiming to follow journal articles on the subject would know that.


And if there's any evidence that we humans can manage to overcome our chronic, perpetual problems of things like pride, greed, desire, rage, gluttony, covetousness, and addiction for more than short spans, I'd LOVE to see it. Point out the society that is free from these problems and I'll gladly concede the point.

Both I and ExLibrisMortis already addressed you on this on the last page.

[Wartex1]

Also, population growth wouldn't even matter in a world with infinite planes, where there's no lack of space; spellcasters which can produce food, which grow in number in accordance to the population; and other resources can be produced at will.

[CantigThimble]

The question is, at what point would society become so peaceful that casters stop leveling up fast enough to learn the important spells?

[Wartex1]

Summoned monsters are a source of combat XP, and there's always roleplaying XP. Plus, NPCs don't have to follow XP rules.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The question is, at what point would society become so peaceful that casters stop leveling up fast enough to learn the important spells?
Casters are immortal (if they want to be), and they can split themselves or copy themselves. Add to that that you can gain xp simply by being taught for 50 years. It's just that most adventurers don't have the patience.

[Maglubiyet]

This is getting old fast. I've never seen you actually cite any specific sources for anything. You just keep saying that sources are out there that back you up, in the face of people posting specific references that refute you.

I don't even know where to go with this. What specifically don't you believe/understand? Are you familiar with exponential growth? Read a primer on it or the wiki page if you're not.

Populations of biological organisms increase exponentially. The time it takes to double in size each time is less and less. The most important limiting factor is the carrying capacity of the environment. Do you need me to cite references for this? It's a pretty well-established fact, probably found in the first chapter of most biology textbooks. In humans, it's education of the women.


Also, birth rate and population growth are not even close to the same thing in ecology. I would think that someone claiming to follow journal articles on the subject would know that.

Birth rate is a component of population growth. To calculate a population at time t, you use the formula: (starting population * e ^ (r*t)). The growth rate in this equation, r, is calculated using the birth and death rates.


Both I and ExLibrisMortis already addressed you on this on the last page.

You didn't name a society that has no form of slavery. It's not really relevant anyway, because I have never argued that slavery was part of human nature (I probably would though, if I had to pick a side). I said that human vices are the things that prevent a society from reaching utopia. If you can point to a time and place in human history where people were 100% virtuous and had no problems, I must've missed it. Rising scarcity from an ever-increasing population doesn't help our attitudes.

[Frozen_Feet]

The question is, at what point would society become so peaceful that casters stop leveling up fast enough to learn the important spells?

This question is completely meaningless outside the context of a specific setting or spellcasting system. Nevermind that first, you'd need to define which those important spells are.

[khadgar567]

can anyone summon or channel(aka pm him) emperortippy so we got some expert knowledge on this topic

[LudicSavant]

You didn't name a society that has no form of slavery. It's not really relevant anyway, because I have never argued that slavery was part of human nature (I probably would though, if I had to pick a side).

Wait, what? Why would I have to name one? Is this a Poe's Law thing, or do you actually think that there is literally no society that doesn't have slavery? :smallconfused:

I mean, geez, pick a non-stratified / acephalous hunter-gatherer society out of a hat. If that still counts as having a "form" of slavery, then I honestly have no idea what you think slavery is.

Also, you seem to have conspicuously ignored every other example I gave, such as female hysteria and Latah.


What specifically don't you believe

I believe that what you said about ecology in your first few posts (#7, #9, #10) in this thread was misleading, and that Roxxy was correct. See post #35.



Also, birth rate and population growth are not even close to the same thing in ecology. Birth rate is a component of population growth.
Edit: Okay, I think I see part of the miscommunication here.

The term "birth rates" is typically used to mean "births per thousand population per year" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate. I think I was using it as a "per capita" term and you may not have been.

As such, birth rate is a component of population growth, but is not population growth itself (saying that what is true of a component is true of the whole would be the fallacy of composition). There are many other important components which all must be taken into account (a few of which you mentioned yourself in later posts, such as death rate and education of females. There are more than just those though, both in animals and humans).

The thing is, birth rates don't just keep increasing as food supply does in human populations (as shown on the map I posted earlier (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Birth_rate_figures_for_countries.PNG/1280px-Birth_rate_figures_for_countries.PNG)), and suggesting that it does is misleading.


If you can point to a time and place in human history where people were 100% virtuous and had no problems, I must've missed it.

It seems an awful lot like you're moving goalposts all the way out into outer space here. It doesn't take a "100% virtuous society with no problems" to claim that some things aren't necessarily human universals.

- There are pacifistic cultures (such as the Moriori, who offered essentially no resistance to the invaders that killed, cannibalized, and enslaved them. Or the Jains).

- There are atheist cultures (not only obvious modern examples, but also things like some pygmy tribes reported in Africa, or even ancient skeptical movements like Carvaka).

- Less uncommon than either of those are egalitarian cultures (egalitarian in the sense that anthropologists use the term, not the sense that western politicians use it in their rhetoric) that have nothing like poverty in stratified societies (since poverty is often caused by stratification). I am not aware of any examples of stratified societies without poverty.

- Addiction, one of your few hypothetical universals that wasn't hopelessly vague, is culture-dependent (yes, things like alcohol cause a physical condition, but use of various substances is culture-specific).

- Other things on your list are questionable as even being vices, since many of those things aren't considered bad in many cultures or contexts (or are even considered virtuous).



"A hui or council of Moriori elders was convened at the settlement called Te Awapatiki. Despite knowing of the Māori predilection for killing and eating the conquered, and despite the admonition by some of the elder chiefs that the principle of Nunuku was not appropriate now, two chiefs — Tapata and Torea — declared that "the law of Nunuku was not a strategy for survival, to be varied as conditions changed; it was a moral imperative." A Moriori survivor recalled : "[The Maori] commenced to kill us like sheep.... [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed - men, women and children indiscriminately." A Māori conqueror explained, "We took possession... in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped....." The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days. The Māori invaders forbade the speaking of the Moriori language. They forced Moriori to desecrate their sacred sites by urinating and defecating on them."

Also, here's the entry from the Encyclopedia of New Zealand: http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/moriori


Fire is hot, water cold,
refreshingly cool is the breeze of morning;
By whom came this variety?
They were born of their own nature.

This also has been said by Brhaspati:
There is no heaven, no final liberation,
nor any soul in another world,
Nor do the actions of the four castes,
orders, or priesthoods produce any real effect.

If a beast slain as an offering to the dead
will itself go to heaven,
why does the sacrificer not straightway offer his father?

If offerings to the dead produce gratification
to those who have reached the land of the dead,
why the need to set out provisions
for travelers starting on this journey?
If our offering sacrifices here gratify beings in heaven,
why not make food offerings down below
to gratify those standing on housetops?

While life remains, let a man live happily,
let him feed on butter though he runs in debt;
When once the body becomes ashes,
how can it ever return again?

If he who departs from the body goes to another world,
why does he not come back again,
restless for love of his kinfolk?
It is only as a means of livelihood
that brahmins have established here
abundant ceremonies for the dead -
there is no other fruit anywhere.

Hence for kindness to the mass of living beings
we must fly for refuge in the doctrine of Carvaka.


The thing is, the list of human universals recognized in anthropology is pretty bloody short, frequently challenged, and continues to get shorter. As such, I think that excusing any given problem as "fundamental human nature" is at best something that should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.