Vow of Poverty?

[Hiro Quester]

I know that VoP is not usually a good option for a player, because gear will do you much better. But in the case of my forest gnome druid7/monk1 I'm starting to think it might be good.

My reasons are these:


Druid is relatively gear-independent. Most of the things you need gear to be able to do, a druid can do naturally(!).
No wilding clasps. Close to core game. PH, PHII, DMG, DMG II, and Stormwrack. But some classes and feats from other books may be approved.
The rest of my party is not terribly optimized (eg. two charisma-dependent characters--sorcerer and knight-- are Dwarves).
It is difficult to use or reapply items in wildshape (e.g. DM ruled that a monk's belt that fits a 2 1/2 foot forest gnome would not instantly resize itself to be worn by a large-girthed brown bear in wildshape). He spends a lot of time in wildshape. Emergency wildshaping means no items.
Having taken a level in Monk means I'll never wear armor anyway.
We are not able to acquire or enhance many items except for treasure (we are on a long quest into uncivilized territory, with few chances to buy items).
If I retrain a feat for sacred vow, I'd take VOP at 9th level. That misses a few exalted feats from earlier, but gives me time to use a tome or buy a wish spell to further increase wisdom (if I can find one, that is).
My character is currently on a hallucinatory dream-quest in which we expect to learn some things about ourselves. This seems like a good time for a "road to Damascus" moment in which I re-evaluate my priorities.


I don't necessarily want to be talked out of trying for VoP, and it's not certain that DM would allow it, but he might.

I am interested in fully understanding the risks and costs of doing so.

What major drawbacks should I be aware of?
Would you take VoP on a character like this in a game environment like ours?

[eggynack]

VoP is usually bad, but it gets bumped all the way up to mediocre on a druid. This is mostly for the first two reasons you listed, albeit with the caveat that it's just an item tax with clasps, along with the third reason that druid exalted feats are sweet business. The big drawbacks are probably the loss of metamagic rods of extend spell, maybe ioun stones, and if you get access to the completes, trappings of the beast. In a game as apparently item limited as yours, VoP could actually verge towards good, though it's definitely never going to be great.

[nyjastul69]

I think you're analysis is spot on. In your particular case VoP could actually be benefit and not a hindrance.

[Hellborn_Blight]

So what alignment are you? And when did you take monk? Generally the only way this works is if you started your career as an ex (now neutral good) Monk, as when you become a druid, you can't have extreme alignments, and you have to be good in order for your character to be VoP. If you took monk in the middle of your adventure, meaning you are lawful, it's gonna be a tough sell to just suddenly go from being Lawful Neutral to Neutral Good just to qualify for sacred vow.

[Eloel]

Yeah, Druid/Monk with VoP doesn't really work without alignment changes - you need to be Lawful, Good and Neutral, yet you only have two alignment 'slots' to put those three in.

[Hiro Quester]

Ooh... metamagic rods. Not having my rod of extend spell will hurt a bit. I would have to take that feat soon, I guess.



The alignment issue I have been discussing in a separate thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411574-VoP-and-complicated-alignment&p=19161774#post19161774

The short version is that I used to think about the law of nature as (red in tooth and claw) non-good. So became lawful neutral when I took the Monk level.

But I'm about to have a revelation about the distinction between the unthinking cold ruthless neutrality of the laws of nature and the outright intentional, intelligent evil that people do. So I'm going to convert to neutral good and commit to fighting that evil, and using my treasure to help victims of such evil.

Monk abilities don't get lost if you change from lawful alignment.

[KingSmitty]

i think you should do it.

at level 9 you get +7 AC +1 deflection and +1 natural armor bonuses added in, and your ability score enhancement (to wisdom of course) will give you another +1 to ac....a wildshaping druid with a +10 to ac is pretty gnarly with one feat. not to mention the plethora of other goodies it gives you.

for a low-op game VoP is very useful, especially if you run under WBL


Oddly enough Im considering VoP at level 9, i was about to find out if i can have a permanency spell cast on me and then take the vow and not lose the spell.

[Hiro Quester]

Oddly enough Im considering VoP at level 9, i was about to find out if i can have a permanency spell cast on me and then take the vow and not lose the spell.

From what I know, you can be the beneficiary of the magic of others.


You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly.

If you can benefit from another's item or scroll, you could benefit from another's spell. You just could not pay someone to cast the spell, I guess. But if your party wizard casts it, that should be okay.

[KingSmitty]

From what I know, you can be the beneficiary of the magic of others.



If you can benefit from another's item or scroll, you could benefit from another's spell. You just could not pay someone to cast the spell, I guess. But if your party wizard casts it, that should be okay.

so i save my money up, buy some sweet permanent spells, and then take my vow right? :smallwink:

[nintendoh]

what is your opinion of a vow of poverty character using magic of incarnum. is there a better route like using a psychic warrior with a binder dip to making optimized natural attack character?or would the versatility of having the magic of Incarnate tree character be better overall.

[Troacctid]

what is your opinion of a vow of poverty character using magic of incarnum. is there a better route like using a psychic warrior with a binder dip to making optimized natural attack character?or would the versatility of having the magic of Incarnate tree character be better overall.

You'd think that chakra binds would replace magic items pretty well, but as it turns out, you don't actually have that many chakra binds, so you still have basically all your magic item slots free.

If you're a Soul Manifester, Soulcaster, or Sapphire Hierarch it's a lot more reasonable, since you will be using the open chakra spells/powers to get a crapload of extra chakra binds.

[Raimun]

Take it if your character would take it.

There is no other reason to take it.

While it is good to be able to contribute meaningfully, sometimes it's best to throw optimization out of the window and make original choices.

[Hiro Quester]

Yes, I think my character is becoming the kind of guy who would feel that bad about the evil in the world, and feel guilty for the evil he has tolerated out of misguided neutrality.

[Zweisteine]

My recommendations:

Ask your DM for an exception to some of the alignment restrictions, preferably for monk (aim for NG).

Ask for some slight modifications to the vow's restrictions. First of all, you are allowed to carry a bag of holding. Second, you are allowed to carry your share of treasure, but only to donate to charity (the vow says you must give away your share, but doesn't allow you to carry it). Third, you are allowed to carry anything necessitated by your class, so you can have a spell component pouch and a divine focus.

I suggest looking at some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?140428-Vow-of-Poverty-Fix) of the VoP fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335794-Vow-of-Poverty-Remix) available online to eliminate the worst aspects of the vow.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So you've got a Druid (already one of the best candidates for VoP) who effectively can't use magic items when wildshaped (which he will typically be) in a relatively low-magic item game? Yeah, go for it. If anything, it might make you too strong for an unoptimized party.