Blind bard

[Shadowscale]

How would one go about role playing and compensating if a bard were to be blind I wanted something unique to role play and my DM let me take a bonus feat for it. Thoughts? I also plan to dump wisdom and intelligence.

[Forrestfire]

On-topic answer: find a way to get Blindsense or Tremorsense, and find a way to differentiate between allies and enemies based on that. Use effects that don't require attack rolls, and buff your allies.

However, to be honest? I would recommend that you and the GM instead rehash what "blind" means for this character. Are they [blind - crippled], or [blind - character who can be just as good as a sighted person in some cases because of their other senses]? If it's the former, then you're probably fine going with normal blindness, but finding a source of Blindsense/sight is crucial, because of how bad blindness is as a debuff.

If it's the latter? I recommend that, instead of "blind," you use something like this list of abilities:


Cannot read or discern color, will likely miss out on some things like facial expressions. You're unable to see the words on the page, so you can't read except by feel with braille or runes or something. Acting blind in some cases, except you can still "see" pretty well.
Normal vision otherwise - fluffed as being just that good at attuning your senses to your environment. You're not crippled, you're Daredevil, or any of the myriad blind monk/martial artist/etc characters in fiction. PCs are often larger than life, and this is probably an acceptable break from reality.
A big thing to note here is that thankfully, in Pathfinder, hiding and noticing things are based on skills that roll together the entirety of stealth and perception. If someone manages to use Stealth to escape notice, in this case, they're moving very silently so you can't Percieve them.
Darkvision 60ft - In many games, this isn't a big thing at all, since light sources are mostly "do you have light? ok, we can ignore it now." I don't know your game, but I feel like in my games and a lot of games I've witnessed, Darvision 60ft is an acceptable benefit to gain from losing literacy.
Possibly Blind-Fight as a bonus feat, for when you're actually in things that block your sight. The feat is barely worth a feat, and likely isn't too strong to give. Maybe see if you can get it in exchange for a small penalty to Perception (to represent that you have to do it entirely on sound), if your GM doesn't like it.
Anything that applies the Blind condition to you is actually overwhelming your senses so you can't "see" clearly anymore. Anything that applies Deafen to you works as normal, and doesn't kill your "sight" because you're just that well-trained in it (or maybe Blinds you. Up to you and your GM).


This list might have a few breaks from reality (can see pretty far, but you can solve that by roleplaying not seeing things at a certain distance, and seeing them when it becomes relevant - if someone's shooting a bow at you from a distance you'd normally be able to see them at, maybe you're "seeing" them shoot it by hearing the twang of the bowstring and the arrow flying through the air, or something), but overall, I feel like it'd result in something more fun than having to deal with the hideous debuffs that actually being Blind by the rules is.

[Shadowscale]

I was actually fine with going with normal blindness and all the debuffs it gives, mostly I was wondering how I would build a hard to compensate and as a human bars with an extra feat what to spend all 3 of them on. I'm open to getting blindsense at a higher level but to have it too early seems to be a cop out of what being blind means. I'm unsure how to gain it though. Do feats exist for blind creatures?

[Forrestfire]

Blind-fight and its tree. That's pretty much it. Being blind is really debilitating in Pathfinder.

[Molosse]

A, uh, blind Bard with Dumped Int/Wis seems like a short-lived Bard.

But aye the Blind-Fight feats seem the best choice for what you're going for, if your DM will allow it why not ask about grabbing the Clouded Vision curse from an Oracle?

As an aside if you're not too concerned with competing martially you can really push notion of a Support Bard as heavily as you can and in turn not worry about the Miss-Chance.

[Spore]

But aye the Blind-Fight feats seem the best choice for what you're going for, if your DM will allow it why not ask about grabbing the Clouded Vision curse from an Oracle?

Please use the Clouded Vision curse instead of real blindness. Not only is it mechanically less punishing but real blindness is no issue after you have collected enough money to get your blindness healed (unless this is not possible by DM fiat) and afterwards this makes you look like you bought a feat for a 3rd level cleric scroll. Also have you read the article where a 5th level bard has a Perform check powerful enough to attract outsiders? This could explain why your curse is advanced instead of you staying legally blind.

But I like the flavor of a musician that relies completely on hearing. You could also refluff an Animal Ally animal companion to be your seeing eye dog. As long as it is in the square near you and uses his action to aid another, your blindness is negated. Otherwise you rely on your Perception rolls (hearing) and high Wisdom. This is why I wouldn't play a blind and partially deaf (low wis) bard. Combat is not your forte but I would rule that you won't need line of sight only line of effect for your buff spells to hit. Be human and get bonus spells as well as high Charisma for more spells/day and more performance. This way you can be useful without fighting.

Thirdly: Dip into Synthesist Summoner and take the form of something fitting (like a Fey) that HAS eyes. You have to be aware of combat situations beforehand and need a minute. But you can fully roleplay your blindness in the downtime.

Forrestfire brought up another idea. Keep in mind I'm just dishing out ideas. You are blind but to emotions. Facial expressions, general mood and your own happiness are dampened. Dampened by something supernatural. Maybe your ancestors annoyed some Unseelie Fey blocking emotions from their entire bloodline. Maybe a simple blow to the head screwed up your head (hey, if it's a good enough excuse for Minsk, it's good enough for you!), making you emotionally blind, a bit thick (wis/int penalties) but oh you are so charming. You also have a small rodent you think is extraterrestrial but you are an artist with moral fiber. You are not stealing jokes!

[KillingAScarab]

I was actually fine with going with normal blindness and all the debuffs it gives, mostly I was wondering how I would build a hard to compensate and as a human bars with an extra feat what to spend all 3 of them on. I'm open to getting blindsense at a higher level but to have it too early seems to be a cop out of what being blind means. I'm unsure how to gain it though. Do feats exist for blind creatures?Take a look at The Blind PCs Association (http://community.wizards.com/forum/whats-player-do/threads/1140386) thread from WotC. I'm not sure what changes, if any, Pathfinder would have made to the relevant rules.

[Shadowscale]

The plan wasn't to optimize a free feat from this the other players told me I shoukd get a free feat... I do like the idea of the oracle curse though and maybe I could have it advance like the curse does, maybe. I'm liking the ideas and input so far though, anyone have any other ideas?

Also the whole pure dupport bard was the angle I was going for, unsure how to optimize that though.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The plan wasn't to optimize a free feat from this the other players told me I shoukd get a free feat... I do like the idea of the oracle curse though and maybe I could have it advance like the curse does, maybe. I'm liking the ideas and input so far though, anyone have any other ideas?

Also the whole pure dupport bard was the angle I was going for, unsure how to optimize that though.

Maybe wait for the Pathfinder Unchained book that is coming out next week. The Variant Multi-Class system will let you pick up some Oracle Class features, including a curse and a Mystery (along with some Revelations) for the cost of some our your feats.

This will let you pick up the Clouded Vision curse with legitimate mechanics, and there are some mysteries which could be quite fun!

[Red Fel]

I wanted something unique to role play

Yay!


and my DM let me take a bonus feat for it.

Boo.

Here's my issue. I think it's awesome when a player wants his PC to start with a handicap like that. It makes for some fantastic roleplay, and ramps up the challenge factor of the game. Particularly blindness, which as others have mentioned is exceedingly painful in PF.

I think it's annoying when a player says they want to take on a handicap, and then wants to be paid for his troubles. I'm serious here. There are, as people have mentioned, ways to compensate, in whole or in part, for various handicaps. Particularly something like blindness, which (with a few exceptions) can be completely cured at later levels. At that point, you're basically playing Daredevil - a blind hero whose power is that he can see - and asking for a bonus feat. And that irritates me. It's a really nasty kind of min-maxing. "I'll take this penalty, but you have to give me something to make up for it." No, if you take a penalty voluntarily, you get the penalty. If you don't like it, don't take the penalty.

As the Blind PCs Association thread (linked above) points out, you can play a blind PC without asking for bonus feats or creating more work for the DM. And that's something I really admire, when a player is willing to do that. As a DM, I might not be inclined to give them a bonus feat, but I would certainly have certain things happen in their favor down the road if they backed up their concept with solid roleplay. There are RP ways to reward great RP. And I'd also make those methods that others have mentioned, the ones which help you compensate, more accessible.

But I'm going to go against everyone else here. While there are ways to compensate for blindness - and you absolutely should invest in them, because it makes sense that a blind PC would attempt to overcome his handicap - I wouldn't ask your DM to give you the bonus feat. Were I in his shoes, I wouldn't give it to you if you asked.

[Shadowscale]

i had the same thought at first Red Fel, but then the other players told me I should get something for it. I don't like to power game, I play for story and role play myself, I just try to be functional

[Red Fel]

i had the same thought at first Red Fel, but then the other players told me I should get something for it. I don't like to power game, I play for story and role play myself, I just try to be functional

And the more power to you. Do what you want to do, not what the other players suggest you should do. And I think it's very reasonable to ask the DM, not for free feats, but to make available those features - such as magic items and the like - that make you more functional. And should you choose to take feats which also help, as normal, you absolutely can, and should.

But be aware that the archetypical crippled hero works a lot better in literature than in TTRPGs. Physical handicaps are severely detrimental in PF. I give you credit that you're using blindness in a supporting role, rather than in a more direct role - I've seen a lot of "blind swordsman" threads, where a lot of people seem to think that Zatoichi is a playable archetype. He's awesome, but he just doesn't function quite right in PF.

I agree with those who say you shouldn't dump Wis. Frankly, I might even suggest pumping it higher - being able to use Perception on any auditory check is valuable, and having optimized Perception means that you may actually fare better against invisible opponents than your allies. Which is, frankly, fitting.

I'll throw in a nice concept for you. If your DM is amenable to Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war), you can take two feats - Martial Training I (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Martial-Training-I-Combat-) and Martial Training II (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Martial-Training-II-Combat-).

Martial Training I lets you pick a discipline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers). The one you want is Silver Crane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/silver-crane-maneuvers). Martial Training I gives you its associated skill - which is Perception - as a class skill. Got that? Instant +3 to Perception if you have ranks in it - as you should. But there's more. The feat also allows you to take two first-level maneuvers. Of the Silver Crane maneuvers available, I'd suggest the following: Crane Step: As a swift action, take a five-foot step, even if you've already taken one. Great for getting out of dicey situations. Silver Strike: As a standard action, make two melee attacks, and use the better roll. Look, if you're going to be taking penalties in melee, you might as well keep something up your sleeve to tilt the odds just a little in your favor.
Now, Martial Training II lets you pick an additional two maneuvers, plus one stance, up to second level. I'll throw some maneuver suggestions out first: Defensive Step: As an immediate action, roll Perception against your opponent's attack roll. If you succeed, you can take a five-foot step and avoid the attack. Fluff it as being able to hear the blow coming. Emerald Displacement Strike: Share the gift of blindness. As a standard action, you make an attack that triggers a Fort save; on a failed save, the enemy suffers a -4 to Perception and a 20% miss chance.
But the big thing from this is the stance. And the stance you want is called Eyes of the Crane. It allows you to roll twice on Perception checks to pierce concealment, and to take the better roll. Since you're blind, everything has concealment, so you get two bites of the apple. It also grants you Detect Evil at will, which you can fluff as "sensing" rather than "seeing." And as a stance, it's basically a buff that you can keep up at all times, which is awesome.

Yes, these are combat-oriented options for a mostly-support character, but I find that it helps to keep your options open. You may end up in melee whether you intend to or not, and some of these abilities will help to keep you out of trouble.

[Shadowscale]

Thanks for all the help can't wait to play this.

[Red Fel]

Thanks for all the help can't wait to play this.

It sounds like you'll have fun. Just remember that there are a number of things that you'll have to overcome, even as a supporting character. From the Blind condition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded), you have to deal with: -2 AC. This you can overcome fairly easily. No Dex to AC. This is more problematic, but again, there are ways to improve your AC, and it matters less later in the game. The key concern is that you are basically perpetually flatfooted, so find a way to un-flatfoot yourself, stat. -4 to Str and Dex checks, and opposed Perception checks. Those first two hurt somewhat, but the big hurt comes from Perception. You see why it's valuable to make Perception a class skill? All vision-based checks automatically fail. That's par for the course; deal with it. All opponents have total concealment (50% miss chance). Hence why being able to roll twice is a boon. You must roll Acrobatics (DC 10) if you want to move faster than half speed. There are feats (such as Discipline Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Discipline-Mastery-General-)) which let you take 10 on a skill at all times. One of those helps you get around the speed issue, which is otherwise fairly serious - even if you put lots into Acrobatics, you always risk rolling a 1.
Keep those in mind, and most importantly, enjoy your concept.

[Shadowscale]

It sounds like you'll have fun. Just remember that there are a number of things that you'll have to overcome, even as a supporting character. From the Blind condition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded), you have to deal with: -2 AC. This you can overcome fairly easily. No Dex to AC. This is more problematic, but again, there are ways to improve your AC, and it matters less later in the game. The key concern is that you are basically perpetually flatfooted, so find a way to un-flatfoot yourself, stat. -4 to Str and Dex checks, and opposed Perception checks. Those first two hurt somewhat, but the big hurt comes from Perception. You see why it's valuable to make Perception a class skill? All vision-based checks automatically fail. That's par for the course; deal with it. All opponents have total concealment (50% miss chance). Hence why being able to roll twice is a boon. You must roll Acrobatics (DC 10) if you want to move faster than half speed. There are feats (such as Discipline Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Discipline-Mastery-General-)) which let you take 10 on a skill at all times. One of those helps you get around the speed issue, which is otherwise fairly serious - even if you put lots into Acrobatics, you always risk rolling a 1.
Keep those in mind, and most importantly, enjoy your concept.

Any suggestions for dealing with the flat footed?

[Red Fel]

Any suggestions for dealing with the flat footed?

Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Uncanny-Dodge-Ex-) is a thing. You cannot be caught flat-footed, and retain your Dex-to-AC against invisible opponents. (ProTip: Every opponent is invisible to you. You're blind.) This is an explicit exception to the usual rule, and should theoretically help you. The downside is that it's a class feature, not a feat; Rogues get it at 4; Barbarians and Bloodragers get it at 2.

It's pretty big, though. Being flat-footed means you're subject to all sorts of badness, and that you can't make AoOs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Flat-Footed) (unless you have Combat Reflexes). So you might consider a dip if that's a thing you want to do.

Alternatively, be flat-footed. As long as you stay out of melee it's not as much of a thing. You can't act in the surprise round, sure, but if nobody's using sneak attacks or provoking AoOs, the effect on you is somewhat limited.

[atemu1234]

It sounds like you'll have fun. Just remember that there are a number of things that you'll have to overcome, even as a supporting character. From the Blind condition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded), you have to deal with: -2 AC. This you can overcome fairly easily. No Dex to AC. This is more problematic, but again, there are ways to improve your AC, and it matters less later in the game. The key concern is that you are basically perpetually flatfooted, so find a way to un-flatfoot yourself, stat. -4 to Str and Dex checks, and opposed Perception checks. Those first two hurt somewhat, but the big hurt comes from Perception. You see why it's valuable to make Perception a class skill? All vision-based checks automatically fail. That's par for the course; deal with it. All opponents have total concealment (50% miss chance). Hence why being able to roll twice is a boon. You must roll Acrobatics (DC 10) if you want to move faster than half speed. There are feats (such as Discipline Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Discipline-Mastery-General-)) which let you take 10 on a skill at all times. One of those helps you get around the speed issue, which is otherwise fairly serious - even if you put lots into Acrobatics, you always risk rolling a 1.
Keep those in mind, and most importantly, enjoy your concept.

Do you fail on a natural one in Pathfinder?

[Geddy2112]

Please use the Clouded Vision curse instead of real blindness. Not only is it mechanically less punishing but real blindness is no issue after you have collected enough money to get your blindness healed (unless this is not possible by DM fiat) and afterwards this makes you look like you bought a feat for a 3rd level cleric scroll. !

Oracle curses specifically say that they cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity. Remove blindness is not a strong enough spell, Miracle is. Wish, maybe. That said, I think clouded vision would be a fine curse, and it gives you limited darkvision/blindsense after a while.


It sounds like you'll have fun. Just remember that there are a number of things that you'll have to overcome, even as a supporting character. From the Blind condition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Blinded), you have to deal with: -2 AC. This you can overcome fairly easily. No Dex to AC. This is more problematic, but again, there are ways to improve your AC, and it matters less later in the game. The key concern is that you are basically perpetually flatfooted, so find a way to un-flatfoot yourself, stat. -4 to Str and Dex checks, and opposed Perception checks. Those first two hurt somewhat, but the big hurt comes from Perception. You see why it's valuable to make Perception a class skill? All vision-based checks automatically fail. That's par for the course; deal with it. All opponents have total concealment (50% miss chance). Hence why being able to roll twice is a boon. You must roll Acrobatics (DC 10) if you want to move faster than half speed. There are feats (such as Discipline Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Discipline-Mastery-General-)) which let you take 10 on a skill at all times. One of those helps you get around the speed issue, which is otherwise fairly serious - even if you put lots into Acrobatics, you always risk rolling a 1.
Keep those in mind, and most importantly, enjoy your concept.

You forgot the most important part of the Blinded condition "Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them." If your bard has been blind since birth I doubt they would risk falling, and while you auto fail perception checks based on sight years of relying on hearing is going to compensate.

I am currently in a campaign with a blind alchemist- he is a ratfolk and took the scent class feature, so other than being unable to see he has next to no problem getting around, and sometimes he can sniff out things before we can see them.

[Spore]

Do you fail on a natural one in Pathfinder?

Only on attacks afaik.


Oracle curses specifically say that they cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity. Remove blindness is not a strong enough spell, Miracle is. Wish, maybe. That said, I think clouded vision would be a fine curse, and it gives you limited darkvision/blindsense after a while.


My comment was targetted at the mundane blindness and not the oracle feature. I said that getting a feat for blindness (which is easily removed by 5th level) feels cheesy.

The permanent drawback and benefit system of oracle curses does not.

[Yanisa]

Only on attacks afaik.
Don't forgot saves and CMB.

Then there are also the few rare exception, like a natural 1 on a UMD on activating an item is always a failure, but skills in general have no automatic failure or success.