Build advice (Fighter, Princes of the Apocalypse)

[Gnomes2169]

Now, before we start this I should state that for flavor reasons I am going with a two-weapon dexterity fighter who wears medium armor. I have decided what I'll be doing at level 1, and I'll detail that below, but I'm wondering if anyone has played this adventure path and if they can give general advice without giving any major spoilers (Just if something is a good idea or not). I'm also just hoping for advice on what order I should go with, and if I should take certain feats or not (yes, feats are allowed). We'll be using the PHB pointbuy last I heard, so attributes will be based on that. So without further ado:

Level 1: Variant human, criminal background (because we need a trap disarming guy)

HP: 13
AC: 17 (scale male)
Str: 8
Dex: 16 (15+1)
Con: 16 (15+1)
Int: 12
Wis: 13
Cha: 8
Skills: Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Sleight of hand, Stealth, Thieves tools.
Weapons: Two scimitars, light crossbow.
Feat: Medium armor master
Fighting style: Two weapon fighting

Level 3: Either eldritch knight or battlemaster, not sure which. I am leaning towards battlemaster. That said, I will probably one of the only frontlines (the rest of the party is a ranger, nature cleric and lore bard) so abjuration magic like shield might be nice, so I'm looking for advice here as well.

Level 4: +2 dex (regardless of what else is grabbed, I want to get my attack stat to 18 by this point)

Level 6: Either; +2 dex/ take the Alert feat/ take Mobility/ take the two weapon fighter feat (only because I need all the AC I can get, and because I need to do the DPS)

Level 8: Get +2 dex for sure here if skipped at level 6, or take Alert/ Mobility/ TWF if Dex is 20.

Level 12: Either +2 con or Resilient: Wis

Level 14: +2 con or Resilient: Wis (whichever one I didn't take at level 12)

Since I know it's a 15 level adventure path, I don't feel the need to plan farther than that... but what do people think? Advice/ tips/ pointing out where I definitely missed something? Remember that the TWF thing is set, with the same thing going for Medium armor. Is that just too non-optimal?

[Madfellow]

This actually looks good to me. The only thing is that if you pick up Eldritch Knight instead of Battlemaster, you'll need to take the Warcaster feat if you want to cast spells with swords in both hands. Your AC and damage output look perfectly fine to me; I wouldn't fret about them too much.

[AgentPaper]

Your dps as a dual wielding fighter will be fine for the early levels. It won't fall behind the other fighter archetypes until level 11, and even then it is still acceptable. If youre concerned about it, try asking your DM for a house rule that gives TWF fighters two attacks as a bonus action starting at level 11. I've done the math, and this allows TWF to remain viable at high levels, without overshadowing the other builds. Notably, it does slightly more than a GWF build by default, but less if the GWF gets bonus action cleaves and/or opportunity attacks.

Both battlemaster and eldritch knight are good, solid paths to take. Battlemaster generally does more damage and is easier to use, while EK has more utility and defensive options. With your int score you'll be getting a lot of use out of shield and other spells that don't rely on attack rolls. Also try to pick up a cantrip with good range that forces a save rather than using an attack roll. Even with low int, being able to circumvent high AC and/or cover can be useful.

[SharkForce]

you may wish to consider a bit of multiclassing. rogue levels mixed in can be quite good for a dex-focused character, and a splash of either ranger or paladin could offer you a second fighting style if you want another +1 AC.

but that is purely optional, and largely based on my personal opinion that after hitting level 11 or 12 in fighter, there isn't a ton to look forward to for quite some time :P

[Gnomes2169]

This actually looks good to me. The only thing is that if you pick up Eldritch Knight instead of Battlemaster, you'll need to take the Warcaster feat if you want to cast spells with swords in both hands. Your AC and damage output look perfectly fine to me; I wouldn't fret about them too much.

Ahhhh, right, that is also a thing... okay, so that makes it a bit less likely that I'm going for eldritch knight, since I'm going to be rather pressed for ASI's as it is, and I don't want to have to sacrifice another feat just to make this character concept effective (or in this case, work at all).


Your dps as a dual wielding fighter will be fine for the early levels. It won't fall behind the other fighter archetypes until level 11, and even then it is still acceptable. If youre concerned about it, try asking your DM for a house rule that gives TWF fighters two attacks as a bonus action starting at level 11. I've done the math, and this allows TWF to remain viable at high levels, without overshadowing the other builds. Notably, it does slightly more than a GWF build by default, but less if the GWF gets bonus action cleaves and/or opportunity attacks.

Both battlemaster and eldritch knight are good, solid paths to take. Battlemaster generally does more damage and is easier to use, while EK has more utility and defensive options. With your int score you'll be getting a lot of use out of shield and other spells that don't rely on attack rolls. Also try to pick up a cantrip with good range that forces a save rather than using an attack roll. Even with low int, being able to circumvent high AC and/or cover can be useful.

I've done the math as well, but the DM isn't so heavy on the math front and he's also a bit new, so I don't want to ask for too much to begin with. When we get to that point and I feel like he's open to the idea, I'll ask if he's open to the idea. I do agree that a TWF Fighter really should get the second attack at level 11, as it has a worse feat than the other styles, it doesn't scale well enough for a fighter to be a solid late-game choice past ~level 11, and even dueling ends up doing more damage while having higher AC without needing a feat (on a fighter only, but since that's what we are talking about here...).

Since Warcaster would be almost mandatory for an eldrich knight, I am leaning heavily towards battlemaster right now. I think I'll be focusing more on control (trips), ally buffs and maybe even parry or defense than I will on things like precision strike or other, more offensive, options. I may end up asking my DM if I can get 2 maneuver dice at levels 7 and 15, so that I would end with 8d10 battlemaster dice to work with. I may also ask for Relentless to be changed to "when you begin your turn and have no superiority dice, you may regain 2 expended superiority die." Personally, I feel like this covers the weaknesses of the archetype rather nicely, without making broad, sweeping changes to the subclass itself. Hopefully my DM sees it the same way.


you may wish to consider a bit of multiclassing. rogue levels mixed in can be quite good for a dex-focused character, and a splash of either ranger or paladin could offer you a second fighting style if you want another +1 AC.

but that is purely optional, and largely based on my personal opinion that after hitting level 11 or 12 in fighter, there isn't a ton to look forward to for quite some time :P

I was thinking of grabbing one level of rogue after level 5 or 6, just to get some expertise and a few more skills (along with the always-helpful sneak attack), but that will depend on what my DM rules as far as the battlemaster progression/ Relentless feature goes. If I don't get either, then I don't really care all too much about 15 levels of fighter (which is going to be my cap) and I will probably just pick up rogue out of spite... er, I mean out of a rational, well-calculated risk/ reward basis. *Cough cough* Maybe I'll even take 3 levels of rogue so that I can grab the assassin archetype (at the cost of one ASI). We'll see.

[Madfellow]

I may end up asking my DM if I can get 2 maneuver dice at levels 7 and 15, so that I would end with 8d10 battlemaster dice to work with.

Or you could take the Martial Adept feat.

[AgentPaper]

Ahhhh, right, that is also a thing... okay, so that makes it a bit less likely that I'm going for eldritch knight, since I'm going to be rather pressed for ASI's as it is, and I don't want to have to sacrifice another feat just to make this character concept effective (or in this case, work at all).

Warcaster is nice, but not necessary, especially for a dual wielder. Simply stow your weapon, cast the spell, and then draw it again next round. You still have your main hand weapon, so you can even make opportunity attacks as normal. If your DM is okay with it, you could even draw, attack, and then re-sheathe your weapon on the same round every round, keeping you free to cast Shield. If not, then you'll just need to draw and sheathe every other round, keeping track of when you can cast Shield between rounds and maybe not drawing your off-hand sword when you think you'll need to cast shield.

The only real issue you might run into is with the TWF feat, since you can't benefit from both the +1 AC and the ability to cast Shield at the same time. In that case again, you'll need to decide whether you want to keep your off-hand free for shield or not each round.

Or just ignore all of that and cast whatever, like I allow my players, since it really is more trouble to keep track of than it's worth. The real draw of Warcaster is spells on AoO and easier concentration, anyways.

As for Medium armor versus Light, that's no real problem either. You're actually better off for the first few levels, until you hit 20 dex, at which point you're losing out on either 1 AC (breastplate) or no disadvantage on stealth (half plate) compared to studded leather. Compared to heavy armor, you're losing out on 1 point of AC (or two and no disadvantage on stealth) and access to Heavy Armor Master for the 3 DR. It's not optimal, but it's certainly viable.

Edit: And don't ask for more Maneuver dice, especially if he is a new DM. You don't need them, so you'd just be asking for a stronger character for no real reason at that point. That is not a path you want to be heading down.

[Gnomes2169]

Or you could take the Martial Adept feat.

Edit: And don't ask for more Maneuver dice, especially if he is a new DM. You don't need them, so you'd just be asking for a stronger character for no real reason at that point. That is not a path you want to be heading down.

Good points both... I suppose I'll just deal with just using the base handful of dice. That said though, Relentless really does need a fix to be at least usable, so I might still be asking for that one.


Warcaster is nice, but not necessary, especially for a dual wielder. Simply stow your weapon, cast the spell, and then draw it again next round. You still have your main hand weapon, so you can even make opportunity attacks as normal. If your DM is okay with it, you could even draw, attack, and then re-sheathe your weapon on the same round every round, keeping you free to cast Shield. If not, then you'll just need to draw and sheathe every other round, keeping track of when you can cast Shield between rounds and maybe not drawing your off-hand sword when you think you'll need to cast shield.

The only real issue you might run into is with the TWF feat, since you can't benefit from both the +1 AC and the ability to cast Shield at the same time. In that case again, you'll need to decide whether you want to keep your off-hand free for shield or not each round.

Or just ignore all of that and cast whatever, like I allow my players, since it really is more trouble to keep track of than it's worth. The real draw of Warcaster is spells on AoO and easier concentration, anyways.

As for Medium armor versus Light, that's no real problem either. You're actually better off for the first few levels, until you hit 20 dex, at which point you're losing out on either 1 AC (breastplate) or no disadvantage on stealth (half plate) compared to studded leather. Compared to heavy armor, you're losing out on 1 point of AC (or two and no disadvantage on stealth) and access to Heavy Armor Master for the 3 DR. It's not optimal, but it's certainly viable.

Eldritch knight still seems like it would work better with a great weapon master or archer type, which gives them an open hand to perform somatic components without requiring them to take war caster (and thus leaving them open for other feats). Drawing and stowing a weapon might work, but would just be the worst of headaches, and taking warcaster to not have to deal with it just feels like it's almost a feat tax at that point. As for using a cantrip on an AoO... without a good int score (mine will only be 12 after all), I'm not all that likely to land a spell attack, and the save DC's on any spells I have will be rather low (a max of DC 15, really DC 14 since I'm not reaching level 16+). I don't see any cantrip I attack with being all too effective. With my current build, I don't see EK or Warcaster being the path that I take currently...

Remember that as a variant human, I am taking the Medium Armor Master feat, so I can wear halfplate, get 18 AC, and not suffer disadvantage on my stealth checks. I was mostly wondering if this is worth the feat, or if I should just stick with light armor/ go with strength and grab heavy armor instead? The advantages as I see them are a base AC equal to full plate (once I have some half plate), a high dexterity score for initiative, attack rolls with finness/ ranged weapons, 19 AC if I get Dual Wielder (the highest AC I can get without grabbing the Armored fighting style, grabbing a shield or getting magic items), and for dexterity saving throws. Disadvantages are that I can get similar AC with light armor and have a feat to spend on something else at level 1 (so I can get Resilient or Dual Wielder immediately).

[AgentPaper]

Good points both... I suppose I'll just deal with just using the base handful of dice. That said though, Relentless really does need a fix to be at least usable, so I might still be asking for that one.

Yeah, that one seems a bit lame, but I've never gotten or had any of my players get to that level, so I'd suggest trying it before you change it. Might be that it's better than we give it credit for.


Eldritch knight still seems like it would work better with a great weapon master or archer type, which gives them an open hand to perform somatic components without requiring them to take war caster (and thus leaving them open for other feats). Drawing and stowing a weapon might work, but would just be the worst of headaches, and taking warcaster to not have to deal with it just feels like it's almost a feat tax at that point. As for using a cantrip on an AoO... without a good int score (mine will only be 12 after all), I'm not all that likely to land a spell attack, and the save DC's on any spells I have will be rather low (a max of DC 15, really DC 14 since I'm not reaching level 16+). I don't see any cantrip I attack with being all too effective. With my current build, I don't see EK or Warcaster being the path that I take currently...

Remember that as a variant human, I am taking the Medium Armor Master feat, so I can wear halfplate, get 18 AC, and not suffer disadvantage on my stealth checks. I was mostly wondering if this is worth the feat, or if I should just stick with light armor/ go with strength and grab heavy armor instead? The advantages as I see them are a base AC equal to full plate (once I have some half plate), a high dexterity score for initiative, attack rolls with finness/ ranged weapons, 19 AC if I get Dual Wielder (the highest AC I can get without grabbing the Armored fighting style, grabbing a shield or getting magic items), and for dexterity saving throws. Disadvantages are that I can get similar AC with light armor and have a feat to spend on something else at level 1 (so I can get Resilient or Dual Wielder immediately).

Medium Armor Master is an OK feat, giving you effectively +2 AC since it lets you use half plate instead of a breastplate. Overall, though, if you're going to max out Dexterity, light armor is better for you in the long run, losing 1 AC in exchange for a different feat. Two-Weapon Fighting is also not really necessary to be honest. It's OK, but not as important as the other weapon feats, like GWF, Sharpshooter, or Polearm Master. You also probably don't need Warcaster in the early levels, when you don't have many spells to cast/keep concentrating on.

If it were me, I'd take Mobile rather than TWF as your level 1 ability, helping you get in and out of combat more easily, which will probably protect you a lot more than 1 AC would. With your extra attack, you can easily swing at two enemies and walk away, even if you miss, compared to needing to use your whole turn disengaging. You'll be using light weapons (short swords or scimitars), but that's not really a big deal, 1 less average damage per attack. Then, max out Dexterity, leave Intelligence low, and take Warcaster. From then, you can start putting your points into constitution or other good feats like Alert or TWF or whatever you want really.

Heavy armor I wouldn't suggest going for unless you're switching to strength primarily, since 15 strength is expensive. No real reason to do that unless you want to be a tank with Heavy Armor Master.

And of course, feel free to ignore all of this and just play the medium armor dual wielding badass of your dreams. You're not going to be holding anyone back by doing so.