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Threeshades
2007-04-16, 06:08 PM
I know this might look stupid because just yesterday i asked for an over-weapon-specialized character but now i also want to ask about this. Mainly out of curiosity.

I was wondering if you could also make an effective fighter that does not specialize with any weapon or kind of weapon and also doesnt go for a fighting style like mounted fighting.

So basically a fighter that can pick up any (size-appropriate, non-exotic) weapon he can take from the cold dead hands of defeated enemies and use it equally effectively. I only mean melee weapons, after all i know it would be a waste to spend feats on ranged and melee weapons because you always would have half of your feats out of use.

The reason for this idea is just the flexibility. And the thought of a theme like "Hey that death knight seems to have had a +3 Keen scythe. Well then lets put that stupid +1 greatsword away for a while and put that scythe to use for a while!"

As I've been thinking about it you will probably also have to decide if you prefer TWF, THF or the classical sword and shield style. While you dont really necessarily have to use feats on THF and sword and shield fighting, so as lons as you can get your hands on a single-handed weapon and a shield the same time, you still might have chances to fight effectively. While two weapon fighting takes at least one feat to be used with any good results.
So I should eliminate TWF.

So what do you think, would it be possible to get an effective melee fighter that does not specialize on a certain weapon? And if so, how should I build him? Just take neutral melee feats (power attack, cleave, dodge, mobility, whirlwind, etc)?

Edit: Maybe to unwind that a little further maybe feats like improved disarm might be intersting, to maybe even attack enemies with their own weapon (i dont really know how disarming works, but if there is a way to disarm your enemy and taking their weapon, then thats what i mean)

Tellah
2007-04-16, 06:11 PM
Weapon Focus and Specialization are pretty poor, anyway, so most good melee builds will work well. If you want a mechanic that deals with your flexibility, though, the Warblade from ToB can change out his Weapon-Focus-type feats on a daily basis. Just avoid pigeonhole feats.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-16, 06:13 PM
No that hard, actually. Most fighters don't over-bother themselves with the Weapon Focus tree, though that works fairly well, as well.

You could advance simultaneously through the Power Attack and Combat Expertise trees, as well as taking Weapon Finesse, to be completely versatile. Pick up Point Blank Shot and Throw Anything on the Side, and you should be set.

Alternatively, you could be a human Fighter and absolutely burn your feats on Weapon Focuses and Weapon Specializations and Greater Weapon Focuses. By level 12, you could have Weapon Mastery in Slashing, Bludgeoning, and Piercing. But you wouldn't start to be versatile until level 8, that way.

Threeshades
2007-04-16, 06:18 PM
Weapon Focus and Specialization are pretty poor, anyway, so most good melee builds will work well. If you want a mechanic that deals with your flexibility, though, the Warblade from ToB can change out his Weapon-Focus-type feats on a daily basis. Just avoid pigeonhole feats.

Well i dont really like the warblade for this job. I would like something that can instantly switch to the next best weapon. lets say the party just defeated an enemy, my fighter picks up the weapon and gets the wizard to identify it and we find out it's better than my own weapon but a different type, and the day is still not over so we will still have some encounters to go over, and i could immediately put it to use.
Or for a more likely scenario. I got a heavy flail and a greatsword with me and the party is crawling a dungeon infested with undead. Andm ost of these undead appear to be skeletons and zombies. Then i could just switch between the flail and the greatsword to be prepared for anything that comes (since zombies got DR/slashing and skeletons have DR/bludgeoning)


No that hard, actually. Most fighters don't over-bother themselves with the Weapon Focus tree, though that works fairly well, as well.

You could advance simultaneously through the Power Attack and Combat Expertise trees, as well as taking Weapon Finesse, to be completely versatile. Pick up Point Blank Shot and Throw Anything on the Side, and you should be set.

Alternatively, you could be a human Fighter and absolutely burn your feats on Weapon Focuses and Weapon Specializations and Greater Weapon Focuses. By level 12, you could have Weapon Mastery in Slashing, Bludgeoning, and Piercing. But you wouldn't start to be versatile until level 8, that way.
This sounds nice.

It seemed to me that fighting characters usually take the weaon focus tree. Especially if they have exotic weapon proficiency (that is already one feat blown on a specific weapon). But maybe its just the experience with my party (a barbarian going for eye of gruumsh, needed orcish double-axe proficiency, so he also focused, my olf rogue/fighter, had (3.0) weapon finesse (rapier) so he also specialized in it, later a fighter also using an exotic weapon (two-bladed sword).)

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-16, 06:53 PM
Could try Drunken Master, although that's only Improvised weapons.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-16, 06:55 PM
I can't recommend the Power Attack/Shock Trooper tree enough. No Weapon Focus Required.

Indon
2007-04-16, 07:24 PM
Could try Drunken Master, although that's only Improvised weapons.

"Man, this +1 Chair rocks! Oh, wait... is that a +3 Vorpal Table?" *upgrade!*

Can you enchant improvised weapons? Are they still improvised? And how much extra does masterworking cost for furniture?

Threeshades
2007-04-17, 06:35 AM
"Man, this +1 Chair rocks! Oh, wait... is that a +3 Vorpal Table?" *upgrade!*

Can you enchant improvised weapons? Are they still improvised? And how much extra does masterworking cost for furniture?

:biggrin:
that's a good question actually. And what is the masterwork bonus for? Do i heal an additional hit point when resting in a masterwork bed?

A +3 flaming keen butterknife might be interesting.

So from the feedback i hear that not specializing in weapons or combat styles such as mounted combat is not only working out well but is also a rather smart thing to do.

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-17, 06:59 AM
If a masterworked item's masterwork component was made specifically to make the item easier to use as an improvised weapon, I don't see why you couldn't enchant it.

But, generally, a masterworked item is just a very good item.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-17, 07:02 AM
"Man, this +1 Chair rocks! Oh, wait... is that a +3 Vorpal Table?" *upgrade!*

No Vorpal Tables. Tables deal either Bludgeoning damage or function as a Tower Shield.
+3 Vorpal Broken Flask works, though.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-17, 07:30 AM
Concerning the OP,

one possible avenue would be to take improved unarmed strike/improved disarm. Disarm your opponents and end up with their weapon in your hand, then smash at them with it with the usual one-size-fits-all feats like power attack, improved sunder (sunder their armour/magic items with their weapon if you do not need those!), improved trip, plus tons of non-core fighter/tactical feats out there.
If your opponents are disarmed, chances are that they do not have the unarmed strike feat, and will incur AoO if they try to hit you with their bare fists.

- Giacomo

Threeshades
2007-04-17, 03:33 PM
Concerning the OP,

one possible avenue would be to take improved unarmed strike/improved disarm. Disarm your opponents and end up with their weapon in your hand, then smash at them with it with the usual one-size-fits-all feats like power attack, improved sunder (sunder their armour/magic items with their weapon if you do not need those!), improved trip, plus tons of non-core fighter/tactical feats out there.
If your opponents are disarmed, chances are that they do not have the unarmed strike feat, and will incur AoO if they try to hit you with their bare fists.

- Giacomo

Well that sounds like it would be a nice idea to take a level as monk. I mean it would get me the improved unarmed attack, my wisdom modifier on the armor class better saves and additional skill points. Just a lower attack bonus and less hit points.
Or wouldnt it?

Exarch
2007-04-17, 04:40 PM
I'm a fan of the following feats:
Power Attack, Combat Expertise (and its tree), Shield Bash (and its tree), Whirlwind Attack, Cometary Collison (charge charger from PHB2), Improved Grapple (and therefore Improved Unarmed Strike), the Tome of Battle feat that gives extra Improved Unarmed Strike damage, Snap Kick, Spring Attack has its uses. Throw Anything is useful, and to that extent Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.

There's a few 3.0 Rokugan feats that I absolutely love...but I don't think you want to hear about Scorpion Clan (Int to Initiative or super combat control OR sneak attack? Ugghn) or super Monk/Kohei feats (deal an extra d6 times my Strength bonus? Oh god, please).

Hario
2007-04-17, 10:19 PM
Though I hate to say it, if you want a character who can carry an arsenal of everything and can use them effectively play an VoP fighter, by lvl 20 every weapon you weild is automagically +5 which isn't as good if you specialized in one weapon and made that +5 keen flaming...etc.. but you get a good range of weapons and they are all +5 no need for masterwork at that point, every rock you pick up is automatically +5, beware of the VoP commoner with stones, though he won't be anywhere as powerful as a normal lvl 20 character it does decent damage with those rocks which will throw better than you can.

Devils_Advocate
2007-04-18, 01:26 AM
Hario, a VoP character isn't allowed to own an arsenal of everything. A character with the Vow of Poverty feat only has a very limited set of equipment. On account of the, y'know, vow of poverty that the character has taken. Heck, the feat limits you to simple weapons, which means that there are a lot of weapons you won't be able to use at all.

And that's not even covering the fact that you'll have no flight-enabling magic items at high levels, etc.

The Vow of Poverty feat is an example of what might be called "enabling" game mechanics: Stuff that lets you play certain character concepts and not be absolutely gimped because of it. For example, the Mystic Theurge PrC allows you to play a Wizard/Cleric and be merely subpar instead of just plain sucktastic. It may be possible to make an optimized build using an enabling game mechanic -- a VoP Druid could be pretty good, for example, since Wild Shape makes it hard to use magic items anyway, and hey, you've still got magic. But enabling mechanics are not OMG TEH UBAR!!11!!11! on their own. They simply serve to make things playable that would otherwise be unplayable.

The Vow of Poverty feat is such a game mechanic. It allows you to roleplay someone with a vow of poverty and not be horrifically underpowered. That's it. To bump it up from "sub-par" to "pretty darned good" requires more than not being reliant on a particular piece of equipment. ...Wait, what am I saying? No VoP character is reliant on a particular piece of equipment!


Well that sounds like it would be a nice idea to take a level as monk. I mean it would get me the improved unarmed attack, my wisdom modifier on the armor class better saves and additional skill points. Just a lower attack bonus and less hit points.
Or wouldnt it?
Well... Sure, taking a couple of levels of monk could get you, say, Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes, as well as Improved Unarmed Strike and the monk's increase to unarmed damage. And let you put a bunch of ranks in Spot and Listen as class skills, sure. But that +1 BAB you're giving up is really pretty good. It's like having Weapon Focus for every weapon in existence, except better, since it gives you an iterative attack one level sooner. Basically, you're sacrificing "good with all melee weapons" a bit to be better at fighting unarmed.

That AC bonus only applies when you're not wearing armor, so unless you've got a Wis or Dex mod over +4, you're better off with a chain shirt. In fact, a mithral chain shirt lets you keep a Dex bonus to AC of up to +6, and your Dexterity probably isn't over 22. And if you've got a Wis mod of +4 or more... what the heck is a Wis score of 18 doing on a fighter? :smallconfused: Regardless, there's a wondrous item that can give you a monk's AC bonus without you needing to actually enter the class (the Monk's Belt, natch).

Basically, there are several directions you could go, depending on exactly what you want this anyweapon-using character to be able to do:

Possibility #1: Hit things very well and very hard. For plain ol' massive quantities of damage, you're probably best off going straight Barbarian. You don't need Fighter for this.

Possibility #2: Reliable damage via flanking. Fighter/Rogue. You do your extra damage via attacks of the Sneak rather than the Power variety. The trick is finding the right balance between Fighter for BAB and hit points and Rogue for Sneak Attack dice, so as to maximize both your damage output and survivability.

Possibility #3: Oh so many options. Disarm, Trip, Overrun, Grapple, Bull Rush, Sunder... There are lots of different things that you can do in battle, and lots of feats that let you do them with a +4 bonus and without provoking AoOs. But their functions are largely redundant, so you don't want all of them. It's like how it's not very wise to take both Whirlwind Attack and Cleave. What you want to do is cover multiple angles; for example, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip work well together, letting you keep a lot of foes prone, and Improved Grapple can help you deal with pesky spellcasters. Basically, you're using your many Fighter feats to pursue as many differenc paths as you can. The dip in monk may make sense here.

Meh, I'm not fully satisfied with what I've written, but I need to get to bed. Hopefully it gives you some ideas.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 03:55 AM
You could advance simultaneously through the Power Attack and Combat Expertise trees, as well as taking Weapon Finesse, to be completely versatile. Pick up Point Blank Shot and Throw Anything on the Side, and you should be set.

Why weapon finesse?

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-18, 04:13 AM
Well that sounds like it would be a nice idea to take a level as monk. I mean it would get me the improved unarmed attack, my wisdom modifier on the armor class better saves and additional skill points. Just a lower attack bonus and less hit points.
Or wouldnt it?

Yes it would. You may even consider taking four levels of monk (since you do not lose another BAB this way; gives you also highly valuable +4 save to will and reflex and evasion, another +2 to save vs enhancement, 10ft more movement, ability to hit creatures that are only hit by magic bare-fisted, 1d8 damage with unarmed strike; all for the cost of one lost feat only), and then continue as a fighter.
You could, alternatively, to get more feats for general weapon use (and not just the monk's unarmed way) just level up completely as a fighter and at one point or another get a monk's belt (if possible in the campaign), which provides you the AC of a monk when without armour and shield (plus an additional stunning fist attack if you have the feat); so that would be WIS Bonus AND +1 AC (it is often discussed, but this is the way the WotC FAQ ruled it). But that is highly campaign-specific and only available from mid-level treasure or so.
Getting a rather high WIS from the start for a fighter is a good thing, anyway, to boost will saves and combat-vital spot/listen/heal checks.

- Giacomo

Edit: also @Tor the Fallen: Weapon Finesse is great in that you can apply it to unarmed strike. In fact, unarmed strike (excepting the great spc magic weapon sun blade) is the only weapon where you can apply power attack damage, even if it is a light weapon. So you may concentrate on high DEX rather than STR (DEX is highly useful with AC, many combat-relevant skills and Initiative and ranged weapon attacks)

Jack Mann
2007-04-18, 04:39 AM
Yes, but then where is your damage coming from?

Weapon finesse is great for rogues and swordsages, who can get damage elsewhere, but for a fighter, he just doesn't get much by focusing on dex. If he's smart, his strength will almost certainly be higher.

There are basically three ways for a fighter to go. One is smashing, one is tripping (and stand still, etc.). Both of these need good strength. The other is archery, and in that case, I suppose a case might be made for a monk's belt. Even then, you probably want to pump your constitution more than your wisdom, and maybe add a few points to strength for a composite bow.

Now, for an any-weapon fighter... I'd go with a smashing fighter. Trip-builds require weapons that allow tripping (like the glaive, spiked chain, and others). A smashing fighter is good with any one-handed or two-handed weapon. Light weapons won't do you much good, but that's because you're a fighter, and it's rather difficult for you to make use of 'em.

Quietus
2007-04-18, 04:40 AM
The nice thing about going with the Monk4 idea is that in addition to the save/BAB bonuses given, you can get OTHER bonus feats. Sure, you lose out on two Fighter feats - but in exchange, you can pick up Improved Unarmed/Improved Grapple/Combat Reflexes, which gives you the opportunity to fight unarmed as you like more effectively, hold enemies still, and makes you more effective (assuming a decent dex) with any ranged weapons that fall into your hands. They're all useful feats to have, and if ever you find yourself stripped down, you have access to a couple of abilities to surprise foes with. Plus the save boost (in addition to Still Mind), as noted above, helps to shore up the Fighter's weaknesses VERY nicely.

Threeshades
2007-04-18, 07:21 AM
The nice thing about going with the Monk4 idea is that in addition to the save/BAB bonuses given, you can get OTHER bonus feats. Sure, you lose out on two Fighter feats - but in exchange, you can pick up Improved Unarmed/Improved Grapple/Combat Reflexes, which gives you the opportunity to fight unarmed as you like more effectively, hold enemies still, and makes you more effective (assuming a decent dex) with any ranged weapons that fall into your hands. They're all useful feats to have, and if ever you find yourself stripped down, you have access to a couple of abilities to surprise foes with. Plus the save boost (in addition to Still Mind), as noted above, helps to shore up the Fighter's weaknesses VERY nicely.

hmmm. well the monk idea was to get improved unarmed strike to get close to improved disarm faster. A disarming fighter might be fun, striking down enemies with their own weapon. And if they dont have a weapon for you to take from them you can use the monk's unarmed damage to hit them over the head really bad anyway. The save boost is something very useful in any situation. Our DM usually prepared dungeons with more traps than enemies (and i mean enemies total and not only the number of encounters), so a better reflex save is useful. And you never know when you need a will save.

i dont know how i should spread my abilities then (we use 32 points buy system)

The monk armor class only makes sense at level 5 (not counting any fighter levels), if i dont want to blow half of my ability points into wisdom (and im not really looking forward to that). Otherwise it would very well be a nice addition to my armor class, because i dont get any penalty. Which makes me slightly more athletic. Magic items providing armor bonuses like armor bracers dont count as a worn armor for the purpose of the wisdom bonus, or do they? Otherwise i should easily get some when making a character to relace it with my current one.

Im not sure yet so let's have a little scenario (a half-true one) to get this clear:
My party is at everage level 7 and i let my current character die, i would join now with ECL 7 and make the disarming fighter/monk we are discussing right now, how many levels should i spend on monk, what equipment should i get (assuming i have about 7000gp worth of equipment (including any magic, from the DMG at least) free to chose), what feats should i take (fighter bonus feats and the usual character feats) and what race do you recommend (I have access to any playable races in the Player Handbook, Forotten Realms cmapaign setting, races of faerūn, races of the wild and monster manual I and III, that doesnt have a level adjustment of more than +2 and cant fly (or use any other racial abilities to get into places, that are supposed to be reached much later, quickly, like the deep dwarfs stone walking))

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 07:24 AM
I think the damage for weapon finesse is coming from power attack.

Jack Mann
2007-04-18, 10:56 PM
But you're not doing very much damage.

You're also even more limited, weapons-wise, since you can only use finesse weapons. That means light weapons, rapier, and spiked chain, barring non-core weapons. Of these, only the rapier, spiked chain, and unarmed strikes can be used with power attack. Of those, only the spiked chain is good for damage, as a two-handed weapon.

Don't bother going for improved grapple or improved disarm. Forget the level of monk. These will not help you. Go high strength. Don't dump dex, but you won't need more than a +2 or +3 bonus. Maybe a bit higher later on, when you can afford some gloves of dex on the side. High dex fighters just don't work. Improved Disarm? Go improved trip! Once you have them on the ground, you're getting an effective +8 to your disarm check, and you haven't crippled yourself.

Besides, if you want to disarm people, you want to be using one- or two-handed weapons anyway, not light weapons, including unarmed strikes. You take a penalty on disarm checks if you're using a light weapon.

The only time high dexterity works for a fighter is if he's an archer. That's the only time. If you want to go with a high dexterity melee character, go swordsage, or maybe rogue.

JaronK
2007-04-19, 01:15 AM
How about a Warblade with two levels of Chameleon? You've got manuevers that work with nearly any weapon out there (and you certainly don't need weapon focus, so feel free to pick up anything). Use the Chameleon floating feat to pick up any appropriate feat you need, such as Improved Trip when using a Spiked Chain. Also, use the Wizard casting from Chameleon to get a lot of True Strikes ready to go.

JaronK

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-19, 01:23 AM
No Vorpal Tables. Tables deal either Bludgeoning damage or function as a Tower Shield.
+3 Vorpal Broken Flask works, though.

Well, you could sharpen the edges. You could do this with any piece of furniture, really. Image the fun at bar fights!

"Give 'em the chair! Give 'em the chair! Give 'em the - *SHLOCK* - nevermind." :smalleek:

Fear the +3 unholy flaming vorpal toilet seat.

Skjaldbakka
2007-04-19, 02:04 AM
I once played a two-weapon fighter with EWP. bastard sword, whose strategy would be to disarm an opponent and take thier weapon to wield off-hand. It doesn't really work RAW, as I had to talk my DM into letting me take a feat to immediately take a weapon as I disarmed it, to wield in my off-hand (instead of it falling to the ground).

Threeshades
2007-04-19, 06:02 AM
Well i guess i should stick with the fighter variant that takes the opponent's weapon after the battle.

So what about abilities? High strength and no more than an average dexterity. I guess i shouldn't forget a good constitution and Charisma and Wisdom are more of the drop stats. (we got Rangers for spotting), what about intelligence? It's as far as i know a must-have for especially non-human fighters who otherwise get only 2 skill points each level.

I know this is a more typical fighter build but i want to make it effective anyway.

And what about taking a level or 2 in barbarian. As I see it, that's at least equal to taking a bonus feat. f not even better: Higher movement rate, rage once a day, more skill points and d12 hit points. a second barbarian level would then give me another d12 hp an uncanny dodge and also some more skill points. And then going on with fighter i could also get feats to improve my rage in different ways.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-19, 08:50 AM
But you're not doing very much damage.

You're also even more limited, weapons-wise, since you can only use finesse weapons. That means light weapons, rapier, and spiked chain, barring non-core weapons. Of these, only the rapier, spiked chain, and unarmed strikes can be used with power attack. Of those, only the spiked chain is good for damage, as a two-handed weapon.

Don't bother going for improved grapple or improved disarm. Forget the level of monk. These will not help you. Go high strength. Don't dump dex, but you won't need more than a +2 or +3 bonus. Maybe a bit higher later on, when you can afford some gloves of dex on the side. High dex fighters just don't work. Improved Disarm? Go improved trip! Once you have them on the ground, you're getting an effective +8 to your disarm check, and you haven't crippled yourself.

Besides, if you want to disarm people, you want to be using one- or two-handed weapons anyway, not light weapons, including unarmed strikes. You take a penalty on disarm checks if you're using a light weapon.

The only time high dexterity works for a fighter is if he's an archer. That's the only time. If you want to go with a high dexterity melee character, go swordsage, or maybe rogue.

I disagree.
It seems the OP is going for versatility, not THF+Shock Trooper, with dependence on a singular weapon.

Rapiers can be wielded two handed for power attack, while also finessing. You can also power attack with fists, though not for 2 for 1.

Have you seen Sir Giacomo ftr 20, straight core build? It's quite good, with prime stats being dex and wis + monk's belt. Extremely versatile, too, which means he can shoot down flying opponents, go toe-to-toe, etc.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-19, 09:04 AM
Meh, Barbarian is a pretty decent way to go, but it's a 1/day ability, primarily, and an additonal 2 hp on average, in exchange for a bonus feat of indeterminate level. I'd say that, IF you are going to get barbarian, do it early on. Maybe even start with a level of Barbarian with Power Attack. Then take a Fighter level, taking Combat Expertise, and then a second Fighter level taking either Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, and either Improved Bull Rush or Cleave.

You might want to consider Improved Unarmed Attack, just for flavor, if you want to be able to wrench a foe's weapon away from him at the start of combat and then beat him about the head with it. I kind of like that flavor, and it increases your effectivity:

BBEG: "Rahr! Ph34r my +5 Keen Shocking Burst Scythe!"

Mind if I borrow it?

Threeshades
2007-04-20, 01:19 PM
Just a question on the side: Is there any combat feat that i can use a good Jump skill for?

Annarrkkii
2007-04-20, 01:26 PM
The entire Tiger Claw school from Tomb of Battle.

Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer hinges on having some Jump ranks, but doesn't actually use them for anything, and Raptor School tactical feat from Complete Warrior, while not that impressive, is entirely based around the Jump skill.

Person_Man
2007-04-20, 02:03 PM
Weapon Focus et al are piss poor feats. So any melee build should be able to use any non-exotic weapon with very similar effects. The main reason someone would use one weapon is economics. You only get X gp. You want to buy a single powerful weapon, and use it all the time.

Also, Battle Jump from Unapproachable East let's you do double damage on a charge when you drop on your enemy from at least 10 feet above (it requires an insane Jump check, but its doable with the right race and magic items). Works well with Headlong Rush (Races of Faerun), a reach weapon, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and anything that grants the Pounce ability.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-20, 03:05 PM
To drop on a Medium-sized foe from at least 10 ft. up, I'd venture to say that you'd need a minimum of 16 ft. of air. That's a DC 72 Jump check. Let's assume a level 12 human, with the elite array to start without even a slight focus on Jumping.

+65 is easily possible: 15 [ranks] + 8 [24 Strength] + 10 competence [Improved Ring of Jumping] + 30 enhancement [CL 9 Jump Spell/Potion] + 2 [Tumble Synergy]

This can be improved to +73 by being a halfling and taking both Run and Acrobatic. If you drop the build to 9th (so your Wizard can still cast CL 9, +30 Jump spell), you'll lose 3 ranks and 1 point of strength bonus, meaning you have to take Run, at least, to keep it in the nearly-guaranteed range. Flavor this one up with Raptor School from Complete Warrior. A genuinely lame feat, it lets you attempt a DC 25 Jump Check to deal 4 extra points of damage when you drop at least 10 ft. When you multiply this by Headlong Rush and Battle Jump, however, it's a perfectly respectable 12 extra.

...Alternatively, you could just be Raptoran, take the Twisted Charge skill trick, and all you need to do is "charge" up at a 45-degree angle for about 15 ft., then make your one 90-degree turn to head back downwards for 15 ft., and you should be at your foe's location having just lost the required 10 ft. of altitude.

Or go Raptoran Psychic Warrior, take Speed of Thought and Psionic Charge, and you can pull off the necessary maneuver at first level, though you lack the actual necessary feats. Of course, this burns 2 feats, which you need to advance the tree, so you might want to go fighter or Warblade until you can dip into Psychic Warrior to complete the build.

Another way, that doesn't require being a Raptoran and takes a trio of feats, is to grab Up the Walls, Speed of Thought, and Psionic Charge, and use the same move by zooming up and down walls. This requires at least a 30 ft. landspeed, and has to be timed pretty carefully. That requires a 2-level dip into Psychic Warrior, though. It can be pulled off by any race with enough landspeed.

An ugly, ugly way to do it, without burning feats or using psionics or flight, is to wait until 9th level, and grab the Walk the Walls skill trick, but that requires... about a 60 ft. landspeed, which is hard for a heavily armored fighter to pull off. Maybe mithral breastplate. Both wallwalking methods require a wall nearby, of course, which is a serious disadvantage. See if your wizard will be nice enough to toss out a long, ten-foot-tall wall of force for you to charge along. This also requires careful gauging of distance.

That's a blatant, cheesy piece of crap, and should be disregarded. But I just felt like dropping in how that particular tactic could be used. This is why people think optimization is wasteful.

While any fighter could probably be used as an any-weapon fighter, I feel it's better flavor if you make it so he can really genuinely use any weapon in a variety of tactics. Combat Expertise, Dodge, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, Deadly Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting (and why not?), and any other short chains of fighter feats are all cool. But you do kinda have to grab a bit of Power Attack to open out the fight.

Threeshades
2007-04-21, 05:33 AM
I might take two weapon fighting when i have so many levels that a feat more or less doesn't make a big difference anymore. I was thinking about building an Earthgenasi for it. I like the stats they get (Strength and Constitution at a high and this time i wasnt looking to make a charismatic or wise character) and also the look i can give them.
Or do you think i should use a race without level adjustment? so to get as many hit dice and feats as possible. The BAB wouldnt be that much of a problem since the strength makes up for the lost point of BAB, and puts in some extra damage. While the extra constitution should quickly make up for the lost hit points. It's 1 additonal HP each level, since a fighter gets an average 5 HP each level i should have made up for the loss already on level 5.
Or just a human? some extra skillage and one more feat might be useful too.

What races do you think are the most useful there? (except for half-orcs and dwarves, i dont like those)

Lolzords
2007-04-21, 08:36 AM
You could take a page out of Baldur's Gate's book and homebrew some feats. Single weapon fighting, sword and shield style and two handed weapon fighting. Basically, whenever you choose one of those feats and use an appropriate weapon (for example two handed weapon fighting and a great sword) you gain an extra +1 to AC. Basically, it's two weapon defense but it applies to other weapons.

Threeshades
2007-04-21, 08:52 AM
You could take a page out of Baldur's Gate's book and homebrew some feats. Single weapon fighting, sword and shield style and two handed weapon fighting. Basically, whenever you choose one of those feats and use an appropriate weapon (for example two handed weapon fighting and a great sword) you gain an extra +1 to AC. Basically, it's two weapon defense but it applies to other weapons.

if i can get it somewhere anythime soon, i might do so.

But right now im more thinking about races.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-21, 01:16 PM
Is jump still limited by height?

Matthew
2007-04-21, 03:39 PM
You could take a page out of Baldur's Gate's book and homebrew some feats. Single weapon fighting, sword and shield style and two handed weapon fighting. Basically, whenever you choose one of those feats and use an appropriate weapon (for example two handed weapon fighting and a great sword) you gain an extra +1 to AC. Basically, it's two weapon defense but it applies to other weapons.


if i can get it somewhere anythime soon, i might do so.

But right now im more thinking about races.
Baldur's Gate uses the (A)D&D Style Specialisation Rules from The Complete Fighter's Handbook, Player's Option: Skills and Power and Player's Option: Combat and Tactics.

I am a bit confused about this concept. Surely an Any Weapon Fighter is just one that doesn't take Feats that pertain to particular weapons?

Threeshades
2007-04-21, 05:20 PM
Baldur's Gate uses the (A)D&D Style Specialisation Rules from The Complete Fighter's Handbook, Player's Option: Skills and Power and Player's Option: Combat and Tactics.

I am a bit confused about this concept. Surely an Any Weapon Fighter is just one that doesn't take Feats that pertain to particular weapons?

surely and i know my question sounds stupid. But there might be races i, overseeing, that can be of great use as fighters.