So a friend of mine borrowed the MM

[Ralanr]

And now he wants to make a race of neutral succubi. Basically succubi who filled the "emptiness" inside themselves on this one island (which is basically Hawaii with sex tourism) and decided to say "we like it here. We have family. The rest of the Devils can screw off"

Ignoring fluff (because despite my disagreement on a massive racial alignment shift) I want to know if the stats he's making are not too powerful.

+2 cha, +1 dex
Flight speed 30ft. Only fly with light armor.
Innate spellcasting: knows friends cantrip at level one, disguise self at level 3, and calm emotions at level 5. Charisma casting stat.

I think he got rid the idea for the draining kiss. But if not then I don't know it. I'm honestly not sure this is broken, but considering he tried to build a race with legendary resistance and a race with magic resistance (fluff aside, I felt they were too powerful. I had to talk with DM to change the legendary resistance to just legendary on saves you're proficient in).

Too powerful? Balanced?

[Giant2005]

Too powerful.
Flight is a really strong ability and if we take the Aarakocra as an example, it is powerful enough to warrant being the only ability of significance. I'd throw away the spellcasting and keep the rest as is.

[Ralanr]

Too powerful.
Flight is a really strong ability and if we take the Aarakocra as an example, it is powerful enough to warrant being the only ability of significance. I'd throw away the spellcasting and keep the rest as is.

I told him about the flying. His response was, "it's not as far/fast as Aarakocra"

This make any difference?

[Occasional Sage]

I told him about the flying. His response was, "it's not as far/fast as Aarakocra"

This make any difference?

Nope. Broken is broken.

[Ralanr]

Nope. Broken is broken.

Can you or anyone give a reasonable example or details on why it's broken. Telling him it's broken and relating it too Aarakocra doesn't seem to help him understand.

[SharkForce]

i'd say it depends. i don't feel like it's generally too powerful, but it will be too powerful if the DM fails to account for the flight.

but honestly, why not just work up a tiefling subrace for this?

[Ralanr]

i'd say it depends. i don't feel like it's generally too powerful, but it will be too powerful if the DM fails to account for the flight.

but honestly, why not just work up a tiefling subrace for this?

That could work. Fluff reasons aside.

[MrStabby]

Well Cha and Dex are probably the best stats to have boosts in for a wide range of classes. Flying is situational but often very good (feather fall at will is pretty good as a bonus spell, spider climb is a level 2 spell and you get better than that for free. Fly itself is level 3 - and you get to have permanent, undispellable effects of this spell as a race feature? Seems a bit good).

I am DMing a campaign at the moment and the only thing I disallowed was the Aracocra. What is the point of enabling players to make the best sneaky thief with the ability to climb like a Gecko and move like a shadow with expertise if you just allow other players to say "well I will just fly up the cliff" or "I will just fly over the wall instead of sneaking past the guards"

[Slipperychicken]

Honestly, I think you can dump flying and give them either a charm or a draining kiss.

[PotatoGolem]

It's too powerful because it combines the best features of two existing races. You get Tiefling spellcasting and Aarakocra flight. Also, the ability increases are better for a keep-away blaster than the Aarakocra. I assume he's going Warlock or Sorcerer; for either of those, you'd just fly 30 feet per round into the air and blast away. Makes all melee bruisers harmless without reducing DPR at all.

Honestly, you need to figure out if he really wants to make a balanced race and just really sucks at it, or if he's trying to find an OP race he can sneak past the DM. From the descriptions you gave of his other races, it sounds like he just wants to be better than everyone else (and as an aside, legendary resistance, even just on saves you're proficient in, is ridiculously OP). If that's the case, he won't be interested in a balanced succubus.

[Ralanr]

It's too powerful because it combines the best features of two existing races. You get Tiefling spellcasting and Aarakocra flight. Also, the ability increases are better for a keep-away blaster than the Aarakocra. I assume he's going Warlock or Sorcerer; for either of those, you'd just fly 30 feet per round into the air and blast away. Makes all melee bruisers harmless without reducing DPR at all.

Honestly, you need to figure out if he really wants to make a balanced race and just really sucks at it, or if he's trying to find an OP race he can sneak past the DM. From the descriptions you gave of his other races, it sounds like he just wants to be better than everyone else (and as an aside, legendary resistance, even just on saves you're proficient in, is ridiculously OP). If that's the case, he won't be interested in a balanced succubus.

Believe it or not, he just sucks at making balance. His response when asked, "how do you respond to a rule you don't like or disagree with?" "I ignore them because I think they're stupid"

I can't get through to him apparently. The DM tries to balance these as best she can, but I'd rather her just say no to some of his ideas.

[hymer]

I can't get through to him apparently. The DM tries to balance these as best she can, but I'd rather her just say no to some of his ideas.

I have or had a player like this. Once I informed him that his used car salesman attitude (and outright rules violations in character creation) made me spend more time on him and his PC than on the rest of the group combined, and that due to constantly being forced to block or work with his weird ideas, my enthusiasm for being his DM was as low as for cleaning vomit off the street, he actually mellowed.
Be careful he doesn't wear out your DM or the rest of the group.

[PotatoGolem]

Well, if he ignores rules he doesn't like and other people's suggestions, that will certainly lead to bad balance. TBH, it sounds like the DM needs to exercise more control of the situation. All homebrew is at the DM's discretion; I limit my players to specific homebrews I've approved (after running them past our most ingenious rules-exploiting player) to avoid exactly this problem. Having players design the race/class/whatever that they themselves are playing is pretty iffy.

Races are also an easy place for a DM ban, because they actually change the DM's world. "No, that doesn't exist in my world" is a perfectly valid thing to say when your players are building characters.

[VoxRationis]

Now, I don't know the stats for the 5e succubus, but I think a lot of the problem is that a mid-level demon does not translate well to a balanced from-level-one player character race. 3e had a lot of trouble with that (many would argue they swung too hard against monster races, but still). Any demon worth their salt is going to have a suite of natural abilities which are hard to nix without taking away the flavor of the demon but which are vastly too impressive to give to 1st-level characters.

[Mechaviking]

Why not have him play variant human, with the fluff being he´s a succubi/incubi/whatevs.

If he´s delving more into his racial powers he plays warlock/sorcerer and eventually gets flight and charm and all that good jazz.

My first finished campaign I played a guy with a shard of an Illithid god in my brain and I just played half-elf warlock with the elderbrain warlock path, great fluff that fit the concept and the powers, no reason this should not(or could not) be done in this case.

In the case of rules just have the DM run everything RAW and adjust if she finds something WAY out of her view of the game.

[Edit]
I have been the player you are describing, but eventually I grew a little bit out of it(I still try to make powerful toons I just use the rules as written aspect until the DM hits me with the fluff hammer).

[PotatoGolem]

Why not have him play variant human, with the fluff being he´s a succubi/incubi/whatevs.

If he´s delving more into his racial powers he plays warlock/sorcerer and eventually gets flight and charm and all that good jazz.



100% agree with Vox and Viking. Making a race that feels as powerful as a CR 4 fiend is going to be overpowered, but the Warlock's class abilities, especially with the fiend pact, definitely have that feeling. Just refluff it as him growing his own personal power rather than making a pact with something else. At level 1, he's a lesser succubus; he can cast Friends all day, Charm Person 1/short rest, and has a few other minor abilities. Just tell him that the succubus flavor should come from race and class, not just race, and maybe come up with a custom fiendish background, since those are easier to balance (2 skills, 2 languages/tools).

[zeek0]

The biggest problem I see is flavor in your story. No matter how connected these succubi are to the larger fiend population, they are evil. Even Cambion (sp?) are noted to be irreparably evil. The point of fiends is not that they can be turned to work for your side if they change their mind. They are the thing in the darkness, the evil in the world.

I would make it a subclass of the Tiefling, and compare it to the Tiefling accordingly. Change +1 Int to +1 Dex. Change the spells to more enchantments/illusions. Keep the fire resistance. Keep the darkvision. Note that now there is no room for flying if we compare it to the Tiefling - and that is fine. Maybe the descendants of the Succubi lose their wings but gain the possibility to be, well, heroes.

Just some thoughts. But I wouldn't let this player push you into making this a thing - after all, it is your world.

Cheers.

[BRC]

Flight is a very, very powerful ability, especially at lower levels.

Flight means ignoring difficult terrain, bypassing all sorts of obstacles. If you are a ranged character then Flight is basically immunity to melee attacks unless you're dealing with very low ceilings.

[Easy_Lee]

I might suggest an alternative. I would give them +2 CHA and +1 CON bonuses, dark vision, the ability to avoid falling damage by spreading their succubus wings, and a draining kiss ability: touch attack, automatically hits if you're in a grapple with the target, target must make a saving throw against CHA (8+CHA+prof) or be charmed for the day, as the first level spell "charm person."

CON is chosen because succubi are supposed to be able to keep going for a long time, if you know what I mean. Being able to slow fall, see in the dark, and cast a scaling level 1 spell once/day are reasonable, I think.

[Ralanr]

The biggest problem I see is flavor in your story. No matter how connected these succubi are to the larger fiend population, they are evil. Even Cambion (sp?) are noted to be irreparably evil. The point of fiends is not that they can be turned to work for your side if they change their mind. They are the thing in the darkness, the evil in the world.

I would make it a subclass of the Tiefling, and compare it to the Tiefling accordingly. Change +1 Int to +1 Dex. Change the spells to more enchantments/illusions. Keep the fire resistance. Keep the darkvision. Note that now there is no room for flying if we compare it to the Tiefling - and that is fine. Maybe the descendants of the Succubi lose their wings but gain the possibility to be, well, heroes.

Just some thoughts. But I wouldn't let this player push you into making this a thing - after all, it is your world.

Cheers.

Yeah I figured this might come up.

I'm not his DM, I'm a player and the only other person in the group with the PHB and MM. I've known the race was broken, but I've been unable to explain it too him within reason he understands. The world is also collaborative, so we each do something. He's already made a mark, but the world is constantly being built so he can add more as can I.

He also took liberties. This isn't the first time that outsiders don't fall under their alignment. We met a group of neutral imps.

And apparently campions mating with humans and succubus over a course of 1000 years is enough to make a new race...he's a bio major but I really don't know what to say to that.

He describes the succubus "filled a hole they had" which relates to souls...I wish succubus were Devils or demons so it can be explained better. They use mortal souls as currency right?

They are also banned from the lower plains, after holding off armies of demons/devils (can't remember) because human souls make them more powerful.

I don't know if any of it holds merit in D&D. I should put faith in my DM, but I don't think she has ever said no to his ideas. Though he probably doesn't go into deep details with her (or she says sure before he does. He can get a little too descriptive in sessions. Feels like he interacts with the NPCs more than the players. )

He also really wants the wings. He's more focused on fluff than mechanics, though this means he'll focus on powerful mechanics if it satisfies fluff.

Like the magic resistant Snake women. Which is the only one I could convince him no.

@Easy_Lee: I recommended the slow fall. He's really stubborn about flying.

[ruy343]

I might suggest an alternative. I would give them +2 CHA and +1 CON bonuses, dark vision, the ability to avoid falling damage by spreading their succubus wings, and a draining kiss ability: touch attack, automatically hits if you're in a grapple with the target, target must make a saving throw against CHA (8+CHA+prof) or be charmed for the day, as the first level spell "charm person."

CON is chosen because succubi are supposed to be able to keep going for a long time, if you know what I mean. Being able to slow fall, see in the dark, and cast a scaling level 1 spell once/day are reasonable, I think.

This is likely the best suggestion out there. Just make sure that the kiss can't actually be used more than once per day. The fact that the creature doesn't get advantage if hostile means that it's still pretty powerful. Maybe should include that in the description as well.

Maybe scale falling damage resistance by 3 HP/level or something, or base it off of how the monk works.

[Easy_Lee]

This is likely the best suggestion out there. Just make sure that the kiss can't actually be used more than once per day.

Whoops, thought I put the once/day thing in the post. That's what I meant, thank you.

[Occasional Sage]

He's really stubborn about flying.


This makes him sound not "bad at balance" but selfish and unwilling to be only as good as everybody else.

Seriously, if he can't understand that flight invalidates most character concerns, especially at low level, he's being deliberately obtuse. I recommend explaining to him in terms of "how does a medieval infantry platoon combat a bomber?" The clear answer is, very poorly. The ability to occupy terrain the other side cannot enter and strike from safety, then move away if somehow threatened, is so clearly decisive that there is no excuse for not seeing it.

[Easy_Lee]

To add to what the others are saying, free flight at low levels makes many low-level (and even some high-level) creatures trivial. Most high level creatures and encounters will have some way of dealing with fliers, which is why the spell is available at the level it is. But as a general rule, achieving flight faster than someone can even get the ability as a spell is probably too soon. Yes, this includes my BM build with a pteranodon mount, which is one of the reasons why I prefer the panther.

[Ralanr]

These are all very helpful. Thanks. To be honest I wasn't completely sure on what the broken part in flying is since you have to land on the ground at the end of your turn, but I was iffy on it anyways.

[Flashy]

I wasn't completely sure on what the broken part in flying is since you have to land on the ground at the end of your turn.

This definitely is not the case. As I understand it if you have a racial fly speed there are no restrictions on your ability to keep flying forever.

[Ralanr]

This definitely is not the case. As I understand it if you have a racial fly speed there are no restrictions on your ability to keep flying forever.

How does exhaustion even set in?

Edit: flying forever? That can't be right.

[Flashy]

How does exhaustion even set in?

Edit: flying forever? That can't be right.

You are subject to exhaustion at the same rate as a normal character walking/running. A fly speed means that you can use your movement action to fly that distance. If you end your turn in the air you're still in the air. The succubus could fly for the duration of an entire adventuring day with no penalties at all.

Sorry I edited the post, I thought the second version was clearer.

[hymer]

How does exhaustion even set in?

Edit: flying forever? That can't be right.

Like there are no specific rules for needing sleep, there are no specific rule that says you tire from flying in general. Some flight is limited in duration, but those cases are specifically pointed out.
Exhaustion can set in if you travel for more than eight hours in a day, see PHB p. 181. There are no rules against fighting for 48 hours straight, however. That's up to the DM to deal with.

Edit: Shadowmonk'ed.

[Ralanr]

Like there are no specific rules for needing sleep, there are no specific rule that says you tire from flying in general. Some flight is limited in duration, but those cases are specifically pointed out.
Exhaustion can set in if you travel for more than eight hours in a day, see PHB p. 181. There are no rules against fighting for 48 hours straight, however. That's up to the DM to deal with.

Edit: Shadowmonk'ed.

Fair enough.

Wow, considering how each round or turn is meant to be six seconds real time, I would hate to play a match that goes on for 48 hours in game time.

Course you can say "48 hours later" but that ruins the joke.

[Flashy]

It does work outside of combat too, so you probably wouldn't be doing the whole 48 hours before you died of exhaustion in individual combat rounds. It's literally the same as walking.

[caden_varn]

To take a different tack, it is not completely clear from the OPs comments whether he wants to play one, or if he is just adding some gameworld scenery (OK, it is pretty suggestive that he wants to play one, or at least have them as a aplyable option, but it is not flat out stated anywhere I can see).

With that in mind, there is nothing specifically wrong with the race as part of the game world, it is just overpowered for a PC. So if he is just indulging in some world-building and creating a custom monster/NPC race, fine, but it is not balanced so should not be allowed as a PC race.

If he is, in fact, wanting to play one, and is not taking your concerns seriously, I;d suggest having a private word with the DM to raise your concerns and see what she thinks. It rather depends what her reasons are for letting him have his way - it is a bit different if she doesn't see a problem with the stuff he brings to the table rather than she doesn't like the content either, but doesn't want to confont him for some reason. You might find this out a bit more easily without him being there, and it could help find a way to deal with it long term.

[Dimcair]

Just ask him why he thinks he can have a:

third level wizard spell as cast at will, infinite duration and without having to make concentration checks, as a racial class feature? Not to mention that it can't be dispelled.

The answer: "its only half as fast" is not one I would count by the way....

[Ralanr]

To take a different tack, it is not completely clear from the OPs comments whether he wants to play one, or if he is just adding some gameworld scenery (OK, it is pretty suggestive that he wants to play one, or at least have them as a aplyable option, but it is not flat out stated anywhere I can see).

With that in mind, there is nothing specifically wrong with the race as part of the game world, it is just overpowered for a PC. So if he is just indulging in some world-building and creating a custom monster/NPC race, fine, but it is not balanced so should not be allowed as a PC race.

If he is, in fact, wanting to play one, and is not taking your concerns seriously, I;d suggest having a private word with the DM to raise your concerns and see what she thinks. It rather depends what her reasons are for letting him have his way - it is a bit different if she doesn't see a problem with the stuff he brings to the table rather than she doesn't like the content either, but doesn't want to confont him for some reason. You might find this out a bit more easily without him being there, and it could help find a way to deal with it long term.

He probably started with it in mind as background. Or maybe he didn't. He is on the defense that it should be playable.


Just ask him why he thinks he can have a:

third level wizard spell as cast at will, infinite duration and without having to make concentration checks, as a racial class feature? Not to mention that it can't be dispelled.

The answer: "its only half as fast" is not one I would count by the way....

Sadly that's the answer he gave. He then pointed out that it's not broken since one of the official 5e races has it. Since it's a lower speed, it's even more fair.

It helps that we've never delt with flight mechanics in game before.

[Flashy]

Sadly that's the answer he gave. He then pointed out that it's not broken since one of the official 5e races has it. Since it's a lower speed, it's even more fair.

It helps that we've never delt with flight mechanics in game before.

You could go with "Why do you want a 17th level tempest cleric feature as a racial?"

[Ralanr]

You could go with "Why do you want a 17th level tempest cleric feature as a racial?"

And he'll respond with "Aarakocra have it"

[DireSickFish]

+2 cha, +1 dex
Flight speed 30ft. Only fly with light armor.
Innate spellcasting: knows friends cantrip at level one, disguise self at level 3, and calm emotions at level 5. Charisma casting stat.


I'd say that this stat block falls in closely with the power level you would expect of a PC race. He took an existing race (Aarakocra) and made small adjustments to bring it in line with his concept. He is right in that reducing the flight speed should give him room for other benefits. I'm assuming disguise self and calm emotions are 1/long rest.

The real issue with this race is that it is a flight race which could either cause a lot of problems or be just fine in the group. It is a powerful and unique ability and it's making the race seem overpowerd (which it might be).

I'm with Easy Lee on making it +2 CHA +1 CON, seems to fit the theme better. Other than that I'd actually let him run this race. It's good practice for "take existing race and modify" instead of starting with the monster and trying to back work it and ending up with something to strong. If the DM thinks the flight is getting out of hand he can clip his wings.

[BRC]

One way to balance it might be to make their Flying take concentration, rather than just being a movement type. This 1) Means that it's possible to ground a flying succubus with ranged attacks (making it harder to pull the whole "Immune to melee" thing), and 2) provides a nerf if they want to play a caster. They can have concentration, OR Flying, but not both.

Although it's still broken. Consider that the race with a fly speed has that as their only feature. 20 ft of movement isn't worth a +2, a +1, and several other features.

[DireSickFish]

Although it's still broken. Consider that the race with a fly speed has that as their only feature. 20 ft of movement isn't worth a +2, a +1, and several other features.

The fly speed race gets +2 DEX +1 Wis already. So he's not trading the 30ft (as they have 60ft fly speed not 50) for the stat bonuses.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Who has 60' flight? Aarakocra specifically have 50' flight and 25' walking speed.

[DireSickFish]

Who has 60' flight? Aarakocra specifically have 50' flight and 25' walking speed.

Ah you're right. My bad.

[Shining Wrath]

If he still insists on flight and spells, point out that's (as noted) Aararocka + Tiefling, and throw in some sort of substantial negative for balance. Vulnerability to radiant damage?

[PotatoGolem]

The problem with balancing around the Aarakocra is that they're not very well balanced. From what I recall of conversation on these boards when EE came out, the consensus was pretty much that the flight speed makes them too powerful. I have yet to play a campaign that allowed them, and I certainly wouldn't have them in my games. I also think it's very telling that WOTC banned them from the Adventurers' League, so even they're not really standing behind the birdmen as a fair and balanced race.

[Easy_Lee]

If he still insists on flight and spells, point out that's (as noted) Aararocka + Tiefling, and throw in some sort of substantial negative for balance. Vulnerability to radiant damage?

Personally, I disagree that Aararocka flight is even balanced in the first place. That's an always-on third level spell or a 14th level archetype feature for free. If there were a warlock invocation granting free flight, it would probably have a 12-15th level requirement based on my analysis of the other invocations. So I don't think it's balanced, at all, to have that on a race, particularly not in 5e.

[Gritmonger]

Personally, I disagree that Aararocka flight is even balanced in the first place. That's an always-on third level spell or a 14th level archetype feature for free. If there were a warlock invocation granting free flight, it would probably have a 12-15th level requirement based on my analysis of the other invocations. So I don't think it's balanced, at all, to have that on a race, particularly not in 5e.

I dunno.

You've got the Broom of Flying, which is uncommon, so it's available at third level - and it has armor restrictions only based on weight, and doesn't confer a fear of enclosed spaces... and unlike the Winged Boots (uncommon) and Wings of Flying (rare), there isn't a limit on its flight time.

However, I would argue the broom has the disadvantage of being subject to a disarm or a ride check if you get hit, not like the boots or wings, or like the rare "Boots of Levitation" which fly only up or down. I would also say on the broom, no two-handed without a ride check (includes bow and arrow).

None of these, however, would result in you falling if you were grappled - which, I would argue, the Aarakocra has as a stipulation on its flight. It can't hover without expending a move action.

Now, RAW, almost none of this applies, other than saying that the Broom of Flying is boss - even the Aarakocra can't send its wings off a mile distant, and then order them to come back.

[Wartex1]

The Broom of Flying is also one of those horribly overpowered, wrongly categorized magic items like the Cloak of Elvenkind.

[Ralanr]

The downside of the broom is that you're riding a broom. So if that's not something you want...well that sucks.

Good enough acrobatics could lead to broom surfing

[Shining Wrath]

Personally, I disagree that Aararocka flight is even balanced in the first place. That's an always-on third level spell or a 14th level archetype feature for free. If there were a warlock invocation granting free flight, it would probably have a 12-15th level requirement based on my analysis of the other invocations. So I don't think it's balanced, at all, to have that on a race, particularly not in 5e.

I do not allow Aararocka because of the utility of flight and the grapple + fly + drop on enemy back line technique is a pretty good way of making casters suffer.

There actually aren't that many spells that do radiant damage, so in retrospect I think the added disadvantage I proposed is insufficient. Perhaps other fiends get an attempt to Dominate similar to a vampire's ability, while clerics get to attempt to Turn like undead.

[MadBear]

The downside of the broom is that you're riding a broom. So if that's not something you want...well that sucks.

Good enough acrobatics could lead to broom surfing

Not to mention it'd seem trivially easy for a person in combat to knock you off said broom.

[Ralanr]

Not to mention it'd seem trivially easy for a person in combat to knock you off said broom.

I bet acrobatics with expertise would fix that.

I want a hover board that can fly in D&D now. I need to read up on the broom to make sure the fluff doesn't change stats.

[DireSickFish]

I bet acrobatics with expertise would fix that.

I want a hover board that can fly in D&D now. I need to read up on the broom to make sure the fluff doesn't change stats.

Just remember you need power if you want to hoverboard across water.

[coredump]

These are all very helpful. Thanks. To be honest I wasn't completely sure on what the broken part in flying is since you have to land on the ground at the end of your turn, but I was iffy on it anyways.

However, this could be a decent balancing mechanic. If you ruled that his 'flight' was only for short distances and he had to land each turn.... that would take a lot of problems out of the flying mechanic. If things played well, you could even allow full flight later on.

[Ralanr]

Just remember you need power if you want to hoverboard across water.

I'll be fine with my three other hovar board buddies providing power.

[Sabeta]

I do not allow Aararocka because of the utility of flight and the grapple + fly + drop on enemy back line technique is a pretty good way of making casters suffer.

There actually aren't that many spells that do radiant damage, so in retrospect I think the added disadvantage I proposed is insufficient. Perhaps other fiends get an attempt to Dominate similar to a vampire's ability, while clerics get to attempt to Turn like undead.

If Aarakocra can't fly with Medium Armor on then I don't really see how they'll be able to fly with a (most likely) struggling enemy. I would assume the Medium Armor restriction has nothing to do with how heavy it is and more to do with how cumbersome it is, but if the person grappled is even able to grab the win for a moment then by all rights you should both fall.

That aside, I don't really see Aarakocra as broken without being Monks. They're susceptible to being hit by ranged attacks, and even lowbie enemies I've run into have bows and things that they can attack with. At worst it just forces the DM to include casters/archers in nearly every fight, and in my opinion the large bird guy flying around the sky would be a pretty high priority target. (Something along the lines of "We can let those meatheads in the front take care of the other adventurers, I need to take out that airiel unit before he becomes a problem!")

[Ralanr]

If Aarakocra can't fly with Medium Armor on then I don't really see how they'll be able to fly with a (most likely) struggling enemy. I would assume the Medium Armor restriction has nothing to do with how heavy it is and more to do with how cumbersome it is, but if the person grappled is even able to grab the win for a moment then by all rights you should both fall.

That aside, I don't really see Aarakocra as broken without being Monks. They're susceptible to being hit by ranged attacks, and even lowbie enemies I've run into have bows and things that they can attack with. At worst it just forces the DM to include casters/archers in nearly every fight, and in my opinion the large bird guy flying around the sky would be a pretty high priority target. (Something along the lines of "We can let those meatheads in the front take care of the other adventurers, I need to take out that airiel unit before he becomes a problem!")

I remember a thread about that.

Aarakocra monks are the stuff though. It's a class combo this guy thought of that I'd like to see him play.

[Gritmonger]

However, this could be a decent balancing mechanic. If you ruled that his 'flight' was only for short distances and he had to land each turn.... that would take a lot of problems out of the flying mechanic. If things played well, you could even allow full flight later on.
True... you could rule, like how some powers require you to be on the ground or free of obstacles at the end of your movement, you could say that until level x, the flight has to end on solid ground or the character takes falling damage. They're limited to a distance of 2xflight with dash (or 3xflight, if a Rogue) total per round, and have to end on level ground.

It's powered flight, but it has a limit on range. If a ledge is higher than 2 or 3x flight distance, they can't make it because they have to land.

You can drop this limitation at a higher level. Or you could say, it's limited to one move and then solid until 3, move and dash until 7, and so-on...

[Vogonjeltz]

Too powerful? Balanced?

So other than just being an attempt to get as many powerful freebies as possible...what was his rationale for making a custom race and not just selecting from those that are default available?

As mentioned though, this appears to be all the benefits of the Birdmen and the Tieflings, which suggests it's far too powerful.

[Ralanr]

So other than just being an attempt to get as many powerful freebies as possible...what was his rationale for making a custom race and not just selecting from those that are default available?

As mentioned though, this appears to be all the benefits of the Birdmen and the Tieflings, which suggests it's far too powerful.

He likes fluff and has little concept of balance. He wanted to make a playable race of succubus and he wanted them to have abilities related to succubus because they descend from them. He took some liberties in fiend mating. If there was an actual infernal bloodline for sorcerers I'd argue that that would be the result if cambions (which is what succubi and humans make if breeding) mated with humans over time.

But there are no official infernal bloodlines and we have a no homebrew policy for main campaigns...which the psion he's making doesn't follow but the DM is building it with him.

I know great old one warlock could fill some fluff of a psion. Not enough for him. This is a guy who wanted to make Alexander from Hellsing with his regeneration

[MadBear]

[QUOTE=Ralanr;19178415]I bet acrobatics with expertise would fix that.
/QUOTE]


Well that solves the problem a bit for dex based characters who take bard/rogue levels.

I should note that since there isn't any hard mechanic for what you need to stay on said broom, the solution will vary by DM (If DM's don't like broom flying parties, the check will probably be more difficult then parties that the DM doesn't mind). So table variation will vary.

I'm in the camp that see's the broom as a useful travel/utility tool, but not a sustainable tool for fights.

[Ralanr]

[QUOTE=Ralanr;19178415]I bet acrobatics with expertise would fix that.
/QUOTE]


Well that solves the problem a bit for dex based characters who take bard/rogue levels.

I should note that since there isn't any hard mechanic for what you need to stay on said broom, the solution will vary by DM (If DM's don't like broom flying parties, the check will probably be more difficult then parties that the DM doesn't mind). So table variation will vary.

I'm in the camp that see's the broom as a useful travel/utility tool, but not a sustainable tool for fights.

Meh. Was just poking fun. It would vary from table to table. My table for instance has a rule that allows anyone to gain expertise in a skill if they get permanent (so like picking the skill at level one) proficiency in them.

So far not crazy. Or maybe it did and I never noticed. I just used the new rule to change my nature proficiency to perception.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm amused by the fact that he's latched onto one of the least definitive traits of succubi as an essential feature. An unholy marriage of Tiefling and Changeling traits (see UA: Eberron) would be truer to the fiendish family features.

But let's look at flight. Aarakocra get it. and built-in daggers. And an extra language proficiency. And that's it. Hell, they take a land speed penalty as an offset - probably for those talons. So flight is weighted (whether balanced is of debate) against all the racial traits of any other race.

Charm abilities are pretty core to 'cubi. That's got to stay in some form. I like the idea of flight and bargain-basement alter self as racial features, but it's loading too much onto a first level character. So here are two ideas:

Subraces: the three abilities (charmer, flyer, chameleon) would make for good subraces (bloodlines, manifestations, whatever) for the ICBINS - tying the second stat bonus to relevant attributes (+1 Dex on the flyer, +1 Wis on the charmer for Insightfulness, +1 Int or Con on the shapechanger (better investigation for spy-types, or stronger bodies from form control). The non-fliers either do not have wings, or have vestigial wings that they can use to glide/feather fall.

But I want more! Ah, so being able to do more sounds good? I think it's a reasonable request. But to keep with the theme of (prime native, neutral aligned) fiending beings, power often comes at a price.

Maybe it takes a little time to mature in power to gain those extra tricks. Like, I dunno, reaching 4th level in a class? Turning to another friend from the EE companion, we have the Svirfneblin. Rank and file, they're underground camo gnomes. But they also added a feat with a race prerequisite to get the really cool hiding spells. You want more subrace abilities? Take a feat for it.

How to teach balance: One way to learn the impact of poor balance is to see what it's like from the other side. Here's a houserule to suggest to your DM: You cannot play your own homebrew creations until someone else has tried it. You either learn how not awesome OP concepts are to everyone else, gain some perspective from developing other people's custom concepts (and have them develop your own), or at least improve your negotiation skills as you try to broker design trades with other players.

[Vogonjeltz]

He likes fluff and has little concept of balance. He wanted to make a playable race of succubus and he wanted them to have abilities related to succubus because they descend from them. He took some liberties in fiend mating. If there was an actual infernal bloodline for sorcerers I'd argue that that would be the result if cambions (which is what succubi and humans make if breeding) mated with humans over time.

As a DM I'd just give him the Tiefling and call it a Succubus/whatever he wants to name the race. Problem solved, he gets the fluff and the game remains balanced. If he wants it to be psionic, refluff the racials as mental abilities, or however psionics get handled, not spells.

[Ralanr]

As a DM I'd just give him the Tiefling and call it a Succubus/whatever he wants to name the race. Problem solved, he gets the fluff and the game remains balanced. If he wants it to be psionic, refluff the racials as mental abilities, or however psionics get handled, not spells.

Psionic thing is completely separate from the race. We ended up using a somewhat using a modified version of a psion homebrew from a darksun homebrew.

[Vogonjeltz]

Psionic thing is completely separate from the race. We ended up using a somewhat using a modified version of a psion homebrew from a darksun homebrew.

I'm saying I would throw the player a bone and let their racial spellcasting be psionic instead.

[Ralanr]

I'm saying I would throw the player a bone and let their racial spellcasting be psionic instead.

He wanted a psionic class. He would have made an argument with the bone.

[Wartex1]

Well, if he wants a psionic class...

Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qrVZ0JZt6XVV-NHRNgk7HRyHNBs_C0EHIr0X-J1JSbg/edit?usp=sharing)

[Ralanr]

Well, if he wants a psionic class...

Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qrVZ0JZt6XVV-NHRNgk7HRyHNBs_C0EHIr0X-J1JSbg/edit?usp=sharing)

We already found one. Thanks though.

[Wartex1]

With complete and separate powers that aren't spells?

[Ralanr]

With complete and separate powers that aren't spells?

One that looked a lot like monk and since we don't know balance of homebrew and since we're trying to enforce no outside homebrew, we're trying to lessen the amount he sees.

Of my group only I go around these forums as far as I know.

[XmonkTad]

I might be a bit late to this one, but maybe you could suggest locking up some of the cool racial features up behind feats (a la Svirfneblin Magic)? This helps delay their power.
Something along the lines of:
[Succubus Wings] +1 dex or cha up to 20. Your wings become functional and you gain a fly speed of 30 feet. You cannot use this ability for more than 2 hours a day.
[Improved Succubus Wings] +1 dex or cha up to 20. Your Wings become much better and you can stay aloft all day.

I didn't really think the balance of these things through. You might tie them to "when does a druid get the ability to fly?" or something. The idea is that the flavor of the character (the kiss, the look, some stats) are given out at 1st level but the real mechanical power (flight!) is delayed.