What do you think of letting an eldritch knight, use the arcane tricksters spell list

[CyberThread]

My fighter asked if he could use the arcane trickster spell list instead of the eldritch knight. I see no personal problems with it, what do you folks think?

[Mara]

Hmmm. I would not allow it.

Not because it is OP, but I think the idea is too weak for a fighter. Rogues can make better use of that list.

[Ralanr]

Are there any spells in particular that the player wants to use? It's just enchantment(enhancement? AFB) and illusion. Lots of concentration from what remember, which is bad for fighters since they're usually up close.

Though mirror image is awesome.

[Tenmujiin]

Honestly, EKs and ATs could have access to the whole spell list and not be OP imo. If they have to have a restriction I would just let them choose any two schools.

[Ralanr]

Honestly, EKs and ATs could have access to the whole spell list and not be OP imo. If they have to have a restriction I would just let them choose any two schools.

I'd like that. I could play that half Orc necromancy EK I thought of without multi classing

[pragma]

The fighter would get blur, which synergises really well with defense style, and sleep, which is amazing. The fighter would give up shield, counterspell, and banishment unless you pull them as out of school spells. The change seems like it would be pretty neutral in power.

Further, I agree with the sentiment that giving EK access to the full wizard list wouldn't even be particularly OP compared to the rest of the game. Under that regime the fighter could self-buff with haste, but they get so few spells overall that I don't think it's a huge concern.

[Ralanr]

By whole list we still mean that they keep their normal spell progression right?

[calebrus]

There are tons of little tweaks you can make to 5e classes to suit your needs while keeping them balanced.
Example: A rogue at our table wanted a little more caster and a little less rogue. Multiclassing didn't really fill it like he wanted, so he asked if he could lose 3d6 sneak attack and become an half caster.
So we adjusted sneak attack to every three levels (7d6 total), gave him half casting like ranger or paladin (starting at level three instead of two, so it ended at what a ranger 19 would have), and let him choose one other school to cast from (he picked transmutation).
It basically amounted to two more level 4 spells and two level 5 spells, at the cost of approximately 10 at-will damage.
More versatility, slightly better nova, less sustainability.
It worked well.

Swapping the EK's evo/abj for the AT's Ill/ench wouldn't cause any problems at all that I can see.

*edit:
To do something similar and turn an EK into an half caster, obviously instead of losing some sneak attack he'd give up his 4th attack, and probably gain his 3rd attack later (maybe at level 15 or so).

[SharkForce]

By whole list we still mean that they keep their normal spell progression right?

yes, they just wouldn't be limited to only 2 schools.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

There are tons of little tweaks you can make to 5e classes to suit your needs while keeping them balanced.
Example: A rogue at our table wanted a little more caster and a little less rogue. Multiclassing didn't really fill it like he wanted, so he asked if he could lose 3d6 sneak attack and become an half caster.
So we adjusted sneak attack to every three levels (7d6 total), gave him half casting like ranger or paladin (starting at level three instead of two, so it ended at what a ranger 19 would have), and let him choose one other school to cast from (he picked transmutation).
It basically amounted to two more level 4 spells and two level 5 spells, at the cost of approximately 10 at-will damage.
More versatility, slightly better nova, less sustainability.
It worked well.

Swapping the EK's evo/abj for the AT's Ill/ench wouldn't cause any problems at all that I can see.

*edit:
To do something similar and turn an EK into an half caster, obviously instead of losing some sneak attack he'd give up his 4th attack, and probably gain his 3rd attack later (maybe at level 15 or so).

I did something similar, a half-casting arcane trickster with a reduced sneak attack progression, peaking at 6d6 at 20, but I gave them the bard spell list, magical secrets, a lvl 6 extra attack and rearranged the levels some of the other features are granted. On paper it's something like an arcane casting Ranger.

[Gritmonger]

I'd be with the "Two Schools" idea. It allows you to branch out which kind of Eldritch Knight you've got: maybe not all of them were front-line fighters. Maybe some of them were support, or artillery.

Edit: or medics - oh wait; Paladins...

[burninatortrog]

It seems fine, the EK's spell restrictions are as much about flavor as they are about balance. The only schools I'd be a bit leery of are conjuration and transmutation, but even those would probably be fine.

[TheOOB]

As a rule, I'd be worried about messing with spell lists provided by class paths. I don't think it would be overpowered, but EK already gives a lot more than most paths ability wise, and it's balanced by it's limits.

[Safety Sword]

As a rule, I'd be worried about messing with spell lists provided by class paths. I don't think it would be overpowered, but EK already gives a lot more than most paths ability wise, and it's balanced by it's limits.

Stop being sensible. People don't want to hear that around here.

[Rhaegar14]

As a rule, I'd be worried about messing with spell lists provided by class paths. I don't think it would be overpowered, but EK already gives a lot more than most paths ability wise, and it's balanced by it's limits.

This is actually a decent point I hadn't otherwise considered. Eldritch Knight is already a good deal better than Champion or Battlemaster even with its tight restriction on schools.

[Grek]

I'm not sure about that. Battlemaster is pretty good, and it recharges on a short rest instead of a long. Definitely agree that EK>Champion, though. As far as spell schools go, I think honestly the only one you might want to consider carefully before allowing is Transmutations. Conjurations is good, but no better on a fighter than it is on anyone else. Turning into a bear, on the other hand...

[SharkForce]

I'm not sure about that. Battlemaster is pretty good, and it recharges on a short rest instead of a long. Definitely agree that EK>Champion, though. As far as spell schools go, I think honestly the only one you might want to consider carefully before allowing is Transmutations. Conjurations is good, but no better on a fighter than it is on anyone else. Turning into a bear, on the other hand...

you mean "turning into a bear at the expense of every class feature that you have", right? because that's what happens. you turn into a bear. and you are no longer a fighter, you're just a bear. wild shape lets you keep your class features. shapechange (a level 9 spell) lets you keep your class features. polymorph (a spell that an eldritch knight actually has a chance of ever getting, whether they have transmutation on their list or not) makes you lose all your class features until you revert to your original form.

there's room for fighters to get lots more cool stuff without them breaking the game. especially if we're talking about the things they don't get until they're almost at max level (such as level 4 spells).

[Person_Man]

This is actually a decent point I hadn't otherwise considered. Eldritch Knight is already a good deal better than Champion or Battlemaster even with its tight restriction on schools.

That's true. But the EK as a whole doesn't make much design sense. Extra Attack 2/3 is mostly wasted, since EK is going to make just 1 attack + Cantrip on most turns. Spells with a Saving Throw for the EK are mostly pointless, since it introduces serious MAD into the class, and Int is the most useless ability score. And the Fighter in general gets very few worthwhile options above 11th level.

So I'm generally in favor of giving EK and Arcane Trickster maximum flexibility, especially at levels 12+.

[Chronos]

As it is now, the Eldritch Knight can choose every round whether he wants to be a worse blaster than a sorcerer, or to be a worse fighter than a champion. He never really gets to be better than either of those. Giving them transmutation instead of evocation would at least give them some opportunity to combine their spellcasting and martial prowess via buffs. Polymorph might not be the best choice, but most of the other buff spells are also transmutation: Haste and Enlarge both come to mind.

[SharkForce]

As it is now, the Eldritch Knight can choose every round whether he wants to be a worse blaster than a sorcerer, or to be a worse fighter than a champion. He never really gets to be better than either of those. Giving them transmutation instead of evocation would at least give them some opportunity to combine their spellcasting and martial prowess via buffs. Polymorph might not be the best choice, but most of the other buff spells are also transmutation: Haste and Enlarge both come to mind.

honestly, not sure why they didn't just get those spells in the first place. getting level 4 spells maximum at a greatly delayed rate means they're pretty awful as a fighter/mage unless those spells are buff spells.

[CyberThread]

honestly, not sure why they didn't just get those spells in the first place. getting level 4 spells maximum at a greatly delayed rate means they're pretty awful as a fighter/mage unless those spells are buff spells.



Not really with the rarity of magical items they are the most powerful fighter archetype.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm with the pick two schools crowd. They get enough cross class spell slots that, at least according to WotC, we can conclude that no one school or spell is too OP for a fighter to have.

[SharkForce]

Not really with the rarity of magical items they are the most powerful fighter archetype.

if an ability which is balanced for use at character level 7 is making eldritch knights more powerful than the other fighter archetypes, that just means the other fighter archetypes have even more room to be powerful before they break anything.