If someone opens their mouth, and you can see it, is the inside of their mouth an..

[Wolfsraine]

Is the inside of someones mouth an unoccupied space you can see (If they open their mouth)?

[Mr.Moron]

Look, I don't know what you're trying to do to kill things instantly with no saving throw for little cost but it isn't good for the game. Just do things honestly instead of looking for loopholes caused by the use of common language.

[MrStabby]

Is the inside of someones mouth an unoccupied space you can see (If they open their mouth)?

Are you wanting to conjure a ball gag?

[BootStrapTommy]

Are you wanting to conjure a ball gag?
Ow, kinky.

[burninatortrog]

No. "Unoccupied space" usually means a 5-foot cube with no significant creature or object occupying it.

[Wolfsraine]

Look, I don't know what you're trying to do to kill things instantly with no saving throw for little cost but it isn't good for the game. Just do things honestly instead of looking for loopholes caused by the use of common language.

Posts like this crack me up. Get over yourself buddy.

And yes, wanted to use conjuration savant to do goofy stuff.


No. "Unoccupied space" usually means a 5-foot cube with no significant creature or object occupying it.

Ah ok, thanks!

[Raphite1]

Look, I don't know what you're trying to do to kill things instantly with no saving throw for little cost but it isn't good for the game. Just do things honestly instead of looking for loopholes caused by the use of common language.

Amen. Your poor DM and fellow players will thank you for not pursuing this.

[Slipperychicken]

And yes, wanted to use conjuration savant to do goofy stuff.


You can already do plenty of goofy stuff, like interpreting it as letting you summon purple worm poison for free. Since it's an injury poison, you can even summon a dose of it into your hand and smear it onto a weapon without worrying; you only get the poison's effect if you take damage from a weapon coated with the stuff.

[Flashy]

And yes, wanted to use conjuration savant to do goofy stuff.

It also specifically calls out on the ground in an unoccupied space, which is a further limitation.

[Regwon]

Look, I don't know what you're trying to do to kill things instantly with no saving throw for little cost but it isn't good for the game. Just do things honestly instead of looking for loopholes caused by the use of common language.

Conversely, I found that everyone started having much more fun in my games when I stopped saying no to my players crazy ideas and starting saying sure.

If people can figure out an interesting way to deal with a problem then let them have it. If it starts getting too much im sure you can come up with an equally interesting solution.

[EvanescentHero]

The inside of their mouth is a space occupied by teeth and tongue.

[Ramshack]

You can already do plenty of goofy stuff, like interpreting it as letting you summon purple worm poison for free. Since it's an injury poison, you can even summon a dose of it into your hand and smear it onto a weapon without worrying; you only get the poison's effect if you take damage from a weapon coated with the stuff.

Thats a pretty liberal interpretation of the conjuration savant rules. No where does it say you can create alchemical or magical substances. It says create a non magical object you've seen before and at my tables that does not mean creating poisons, foods, any liquids. Poisons are substances, it could however create the vial or bottle to hold the poison, or a sword to apply poison on, or gloves to wear to protect yourself from poisoning yourself a stool to sit on while you work etc.

[jkat718]

Thats a pretty liberal interpretation of the conjuration savant rules. No where does it say you can create alchemical or magical substances. It says create a non magical object you've seen before and at my tables that does not mean creating poisons, foods, any liquids. Poisons are substances, it could however create the vial or bottle to hold the poison, or a sword to apply poison on, or gloves to wear to protect yourself from poisoning yourself a stool to sit on while you work etc.

How are poisons, food, and all liquids magical and/or objects? I mean, I kinda guess liquids are a strange case, but why not just summon a frozen block of said liquid? That's definitely an object, but it will usually (depending on the liquid) instantly melt into a liquid. Unless the DM rules that to destroy the object. Alchemy =/= Magic (usually), but the two do overlap. If a Conjurer wants to summon a bit of arsenic or a bit of hemlock, or something like that, it's definitively non-magical, almost certainly an object, and clearly a poison, so they should be able to summon it via Conjuration Savant.

This entire discussion reminds me of my group's 3.5 campaigns, where our DMs all agreed that mouths counted as containers for the purposes of Create Water, and that Lightning dealt double damage to wet creatures, leading to the combo where our cleric would Summon Water in a creature's mouth, causing it to start drowning, and our ranger would shoot the target in the mouth with his Bow of Shocking, leaving a target suffocating, with electrical burns on their mouth...not pretty, to say the least.

[rollingForInit]

How are poisons, food, and all liquids magical and/or objects? I mean, I kinda guess liquids are a strange case, but why not just summon a frozen block of said liquid? That's definitely an object, but it will usually (depending on the liquid) instantly melt into a liquid. Unless the DM rules that to destroy the object. Alchemy =/= Magic (usually), but the two do overlap. If a Conjurer wants to summon a bit of arsenic or a bit of hemlock, or something like that, it's definitively non-magical, almost certainly an object, and clearly a poison, so they should be able to summon it via Conjuration Savant.


Feels like the RAI is that you can conjure a trinket that's moderately useful but not overwhelmingly so. Having constant access to any sort of poison is pretty overpowered, given how expensive poisons generally are.

And even if a frozen block of the poison worked, you wouldn't be able to use it. As soon as it takes damage it evaporates, and if you start melting a block of frozen liquid, it's taking damage, because your destroying it. That's how I'd rule, anyway.

But yeah, if you jump through all manner of hoops there's an insane amount of broken things you can do with that level 2 ability. Hell would freeze over before I allowed anything like that, though.

[MrStabby]

Is this better or worse than arcane locking someone's mouth shut? Or the other end?

[HoarsHalberd]

Feels like the RAI is that you can conjure a trinket that's moderately useful but not overwhelmingly so. Having constant access to any sort of poison is pretty overpowered, given how expensive poisons generally are.

And even if a frozen block of the poison worked, you wouldn't be able to use it. As soon as it takes damage it evaporates, and if you start melting a block of frozen liquid, it's taking damage, because your destroying it. That's how I'd rule, anyway.

But yeah, if you jump through all manner of hoops there's an insane amount of broken things you can do with that level 2 ability. Hell would freeze over before I allowed anything like that, though.

Not really hoops. It's just a personal definition of object because words that basal are virtually impossible to define without self referencing. Whether you define a liquid as an object or not is personal preference. But it falls under all definitions. It's a physical thing that can be seen and touched.

[Fralex]

How can a liquid take damage? Part of me wants to rule that objects take damage when their natural forms are permanently altered, in which case a liquid would not be possible to summon as it can't even hold its form when nothing is happening to it. I guess liquids can't really be objects if you interpret "object" to mean "a discreet piece of matter separate from its surroundings."

[Padoodle]

And here I thought I was evil for conjuring bird poop to fall on someone.

[Townopolis]

And here I thought I was evil for conjuring bird poop to fall on someone.

If you aren't conjuring a dose of purple worm poison directly into an enemy's mouth, you aren't trying hard enough.

On a more serious note, the specification that it appears in your hand or on the ground does preclude conjuring it in someone's mouth. Also, I do agree with the interpretation that an open space does refer to a 5' area that no creatures are in--that it's basically a battle grid definition. That interpretation does, however, rely on D&D's historical use of battle grids, and the fact that 5e does not default to using a battle grid may make this an unreliable interpretation to some people. Bottom line is it's up to the DM, and they can rule that the inside of someone's mouth is an "empty space" at their own peril.

[Ralanr]

And here I thought this was about using wall of force.

[HoarsHalberd]

If you aren't conjuring a dose of purple worm poison directly into an enemy's mouth, you aren't trying hard enough.

On a more serious note, the specification that it appears in your hand or on the ground does preclude conjuring it in someone's mouth. Also, I do agree with the interpretation that an open space does refer to a 5' area that no creatures are in--that it's basically a battle grid definition. That interpretation does, however, rely on D&D's historical use of battle grids, and the fact that 5e does not default to using a battle grid may make this an unreliable interpretation to some people. Bottom line is it's up to the DM, and they can rule that the inside of someone's mouth is an "empty space" at their own peril.

Great thing is, purple worm's are venomous not poisonous and hence as long as the enemy didn't have a cut inside their mouth they could swallow or spit quite safely.

[MrStabby]

Great thing is, purple worm's are venomous not poisonous and hence as long as the enemy didn't have a cut inside their mouth they could swallow or spit quite safely.

venomous does not imply not toxic. A lot of venoms are toxic as well.

[HoarsHalberd]

venomous does not imply not toxic. A lot of venoms are toxic as well.

However it is an injury poison which means RAW that it doesn't do damage from ingestion, putting it in the same league as snake venom.

[Gritmonger]

Want to interpret it that way? As DM, I approve.

Sauce for the goose...

[Joe the Rat]

No. "Unoccupied space" usually means a 5-foot cube with no significant creature or object occupying it.

Hmmm... So if something has a large enough mouth...

Yo, I hear you like purple worm venom, so I put some purple worm venom in your venomous purple worm.

[Daishain]

So long as any created/conjured/summoned objects do not exceed the dimensions of the actual open space available, I'd be inclined to let it pass. No summoning a boulder inside of someone's head and watching the latter explode.

However, partly to avoid rampant abuse, I would also be greatly inclined to allow a save, probably Dexterity, for creatures that would be directly affected by this to disrupt/avoid the effect entirely. Depending on how simple it is to block access to the summoning location the defender might even get a bonus to the roll. In this case, simply closing one's mouth prior to spell completion would be enough.

[goto124]

Someone made a demotivator out of the first 2 posts of this threas.

[Mr.Moron]

So long as any created/conjured/summoned objects do not exceed the dimensions of the actual open space available, I'd be inclined to let it pass. No summoning a boulder inside of someone's head and watching the latter explode.

That's fine I don't wanna put boulders in people's head. I just want to do some silly stuff. What it's not even like a lot of stuff, what if it's just like small little ball of metal. You know cesium or something.

[rollingForInit]

Not really hoops. It's just a personal definition of object because words that basal are virtually impossible to define without self referencing. Whether you define a liquid as an object or not is personal preference. But it falls under all definitions. It's a physical thing that can be seen and touched.

Oh, I agree that 100% RAW the feature is very loosely defined. I mean, I can see why you could make the argument for all kinds of stuff, such as liquid, or a perfect copy of a book you once spotted in a library, with all the text in it.

But that cannot possibly be the intended usage within the context of the game. If you allow the creation of any liquid, you're breaking the economy of the game. First, it allows you to bypass the costs of any non-magical liquid. Poisons are very expensive, especially at lower levels, since they generally cost hundreds of gold pieces. Having a Wizard who can conjure any funcational non-magical poison at will and have it remain useful for an hour renders any investment into that moot. And the same thing applies to anything from alchemist's fires to oils and antitoxins.

It also somewhat breaks any sort of requirement for nourishment, since you can conjure food and water. Now, I guess you could say that food at least wouldn't work, since it takes more than an hour for it to process, but water might make it.

I think the *intent* was that you can use it to creature tools, may flashy tricks in style with Prestidigitation but more elaborate, or create other nifty things - and not something that allows you to permanently render the purchase of a lot of items pointless.

[Ramshack]

Oh, I agree that 100% RAW the feature is very loosely defined. I mean, I can see why you could make the argument for all kinds of stuff, such as liquid, or a perfect copy of a book you once spotted in a library, with all the text in it.

But that cannot possibly be the intended usage within the context of the game. If you allow the creation of any liquid, you're breaking the economy of the game. First, it allows you to bypass the costs of any non-magical liquid. Poisons are very expensive, especially at lower levels, since they generally cost hundreds of gold pieces. Having a Wizard who can conjure any funcational non-magical poison at will and have it remain useful for an hour renders any investment into that moot. And the same thing applies to anything from alchemist's fires to oils and antitoxins.

It also somewhat breaks any sort of requirement for nourishment, since you can conjure food and water. Now, I guess you could say that food at least wouldn't work, since it takes more than an hour for it to process, but water might make it.

I think the *intent* was that you can use it to creature tools, may flashy tricks in style with Prestidigitation but more elaborate, or create other nifty things - and not something that allows you to permanently render the purchase of a lot of items pointless.

I couldn't agree with this more. I picture the whole power as a minor green lantern ability. He can summon a hammer or a bucket, or a sword or whatever item he needed, but he couldn't summon specific liquids, foods, poisons, alchemical substances. If your DMs let you abuse the power that's one thing, but it would never fly at my table.

[Spojaz]

I think a 1 foot cube of lava over somebody's head is probably also within arguing distance of RAI. Too powerful for my table though.

[Gritmonger]

Unless the person knows the item summoned inside and out, that perfect book could be full of gibberish, that steak could be burnt the whole way through or raw, any object where the interior is I'll defined might reveal nothing but undifferentiated magic goo. I think the complexity and quality of anything more complicated than a pair of metal pliers should require an intelligence check and/or a tool proficiency check.

[MrStabby]

I tend to try and match both the combat and utility of the other wizard abilities. This isnt not inconsiderable.

[Flashy]

I think a 1 foot cube of lava over somebody's head is probably also within arguing distance of RAI. Too powerful for my table though.

The Minor Conjuration ability specifically says you can conjure the object in your hand or on the ground though. You can't summon ANYTHING over someone's head.

[jkat718]

The Minor Conjuration ability specifically says you can conjure the object in your hand or on the ground though. You can't summon ANYTHING over someone's head.

Unless you are holding your hand over their head. Perhaps you're on a balcony or something? Flying, even?

[goto124]

The Minor Conjuration ability specifically says you can conjure the object in your hand or on the ground though. You can't summon ANYTHING over someone's head.

Lava on the ground works?

[Maxilian]

Is the inside of someones mouth an unoccupied space you can see (If they open their mouth)?

as long as the object can actually fit there, then yes...

[Shining Wrath]

So long as Conjurer Wizard NPCS can do to you what you do to other creatures, that's fine.

Therefore, you get to do this once, and then your next encounter a Conjurer readies an action and when you open your mouth to cast a spell conjures a toad which secretes contact poison inside your mouth. You lose the spell and take 2d6 dexterity damage if you fail your DC 20 saves.

Keep it up, and they start conjuring Bad Things Which You Really Will Not Like. A level 20, they conjure a Tarrasque that was subjected to a series of Shrink spells, which are just about to expire.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hmmm... So if something has a large enough mouth...

It still doesn't qualify as it's not the casters hand or an unoccupied space on the ground. Also this is Minor Conjuration, not Conjuration Savant...unless you were planning on scribing them to death.

[HoarsHalberd]

It still doesn't qualify as it's not the casters hand or an unoccupied space on the ground. Also this is Minor Conjuration, not Conjuration Savant...unless you were planning on scribing them to death.

So... you could only summon a five foot cube of spiked chains in front of you if you were falling into the tarrarasque's mouth...

[Vogonjeltz]

So... you could only summon a five foot cube of spiked chains in front of you if you were falling into the tarrarasque's mouth...

No, you could never use Minor Conjuration to create a five foot cube of anything, and in no circumstances could you create it in any place other than your hand or on the ground.

I can't figure out how you came to the question based on what you quoted.

[Shining Wrath]

No, you could never use Minor Conjuration to create a five foot cube of anything, and in no circumstances could you create it in any place other than your hand or on the ground.

I can't figure out how you came to the question based on what you quoted.

If my hand is held out in front of me as I plummet to my doom, I can summon a 5' sphere of solid rock into my hand - which I won't be able to hold, and it will fall.

Depending on the DM, he might allow me to say the sphere falls faster than I do because of atmospheric drag (DM: do rocks fall faster than pieces of paper in your world?). In which case the rock hits the Tarrasque's teeth just before I do, which might be a very helpful thing.

[Vogonjeltz]

If my hand is held out in front of me as I plummet to my doom, I can summon a 5' sphere of solid rock into my hand - which I won't be able to hold, and it will fall.

Depending on the DM, he might allow me to say the sphere falls faster than I do because of atmospheric drag (DM: do rocks fall faster than pieces of paper in your world?). In which case the rock hits the Tarrasque's teeth just before I do, which might be a very helpful thing.

No, you can't because the maximum dimensions are 3' per side. Now, you could use your manipulate an object action to drop the 3' rock, but the difference in fall speed will be so marginal as to make no difference. Besides, if a giant monster can swallow a medium creature, I suspect a measily rock is nothing.

[HoarsHalberd]

No, you could never use Minor Conjuration to create a five foot cube of anything, and in no circumstances could you create it in any place other than your hand or on the ground.

I can't figure out how you came to the question based on what you quoted.

Volume I got wrong. The positioning should have been apparent from simple common sense. One raises one's hand in front of oneself as one falls.

[Vogonjeltz]

Volume I got wrong. The positioning should have been apparent from simple common sense. One raises one's hand in front of oneself as one falls.

In front of you is, again, not in the hand. In the hand, not some other situationally convenient location.

[Shining Wrath]

No, you can't because the maximum dimensions are 3' per side. Now, you could use your manipulate an object action to drop the 3' rock, but the difference in fall speed will be so marginal as to make no difference. Besides, if a giant monster can swallow a medium creature, I suspect a measily rock is nothing.

Density of stone is approximately 10x living matter. 27 cubic feet of stone is going to weigh about 8 tons. If I do this 100' above the Tarrasque it's going to leave a mark, even on Big T.

Terminal velocity for a human in air is about 300 feet per second. A cube of stone is going to max out quite a bit faster than that. It's a smoother surface (no clothes, hair).

[HoarsHalberd]

In front of you is, again, not in the hand. In the hand, not some other situationally convenient location.

I apologise that my implication wasn't clear enough either time I explained it. I'll itemise the steps involved.

1) One finds oneself falling towards a large mouthed predator.
2) One stretches ones hand in front of oneself.
3) One generates a 2 foot cube of chains (giving 2Rt2 hypotenuse of the longest side, as close to three as one can get with a sensible number) in said outstretched hand.
4) One rapidly untangles said chain cube, presumably requiring a sleight of hand check, in such a fashion as to act as a net. One then safely gums up the beasts mouth.

Or if one is feeling cruel and physicsy.

1-2 the same.

3) One generates a 2 foot cube of platinum with a handle in said outstretched hand.
4) One does (Mass in pounds/100)*10ft of falling d6. Assuming one was 10 ft above the creature one does 26d6 damage. If one is using a fly spell to drop it from further, the damage increases exponentially. (This one was more a thought experiment into how relatively kind the chain plan was.)

[JFahy]

Density of stone is approximately 10x living matter. 27 cubic feet of stone is going to weigh about 8 tons.

Doesn't alter the point much, but I couldn't leave this alone: nearly all forms of rock (granite, limestone, sandstone) have specific densities between 2 and 3. Even lead-rich galena only makes it to 7.something. (I was surprised too.)