pimp my planar shepherd

[Dolour]

after quite some time with a party full of subpar multiclass "flavor toons", we decided to aim for a high power level in the upcoming campaign.
the first thing that jumps my mind is DRUID.
and whats the,pretty much only, thing that makes druid even better?
...well, the title pretty much gives it away. :p

we agreed on some restrains, like no planes that mess with the passage of time, no free wishes, natural bond not offsetting better companions, etc...
at the same time ive been "persuaded" into picking up 2 turning pools(are 3 even technically possible without violating some rules?),
and going whacko on devine metamagic.

so the most appealing plane to pick appears to be lamania, for its crapton of habbitants, the ability to extend, and even persist for virtually free,
given enough preparation time, stuff like the woodling template and the overall "nature flavor".
domain spells picked up via a level of holt warden, will allso be part of the package.

even tho druid5/p.shepard10/h.ward1/s.exorizist1/rad.servant1 seems like a nobrainer so far, it still needs some rounding.
ideally max 4 wildshape levels and up to 5 companion levels should be sacrificed if possible, to retain 21hd wildshape(wildshape amulet +
Trappings of the Beast), and have the companion only loose one step of hd(or none at all if you can pick up natural bond).

now, would it be possible to gain the undeath domain, using a level of contemplative, prior to becoming a radiant servant, wihout loosing the domains powers,
by picking up pelor as deity?
or maybe a dip that cheeses a rebuke undead pool without loosing caster levels? im outta ideas, and not satisfied yet. =(
picking up healing domain instead of undeath, and going for r.serv2 for some free emp.healing sounds kinda nice, but would cost us the 21st wildhshape hd,
allso healing pimpage feels kinda awkward for someone who can just summon a bunch of unicorns or whatever.

as for feats i was planning on(granted the whole undeath domain thing works out):

druid6/p.shepard10/h.warden1/s.exorizist1/contemp1/rad.servant1

lvl1 druid1: Greensinger Initiate, Templated Summoning*
lvl2 druid2: -
lvl3 druid3: Quicken Spell
lvl4 druid4: -
lvl5 druid5: -
lvl6 hward1: Natural Spell
lvl7 pshep1: -
lvl8 pshep2: -
lvl9 sacrex1: Divine Metamagic: Quicken
lvl10 pshep3: var(clvl9+) Metamagic Storm: Residual Magic
lvl11 cont1: (extra turning)
lvl12 rserv1: Companion Spellbond, natural bond or augmented companion(any ideas?)
lvl13 pshep4: -
lvl14 pshep5: -
lvl15 pshep6: Repeat Spell? (Chain Spell)
lvl16 pshep7: -
lvl17 pshep8: -
lvl18 pshep9: Heighten Spell
lvl19 pshep10: -
lvl20 ?druid6: -

*apply a template(any natural) to summoned creatures, using the according level adjustment.
we agreed on greenbound sommoning beeing "too much" with a planned starting level of 4, so we came up with this one insead.
still thinking of a max.level adjustment allowed for the templates usable.
at any rate, woodling sounds alot less painful, and got the same plant flavor. :p
in return it saves me the hassle of swapping greenbound for rashemi elemental summoning later on.

anyways, it looks kinda interresting so far, yet im not really happy with it, so anny suggestions are welcome.


regards

/edit: alternative "elemental metamagic" option(if possible, see below):
ddru8/pshep10/cont1/ddis1

acess to air, water and earth domain(wich suits the overall lamania theme), means 3 turning pools, the ability to telepethically communicate with outsiders(wich might come in handy,
considering the planar shepards wildshape abilities and form dependant inability to speak), full caster progression, and stays within the max 4lvl ws, 5lvl companion drop limit.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you're going for an optimized character, I advise against investing any resources into healing other than gold. Iirc druid has Heal on their list, and that's the only one you need. If you want passive healing, off the top of my head the psychoactive skin of the troll is the cheapest apart from custom items or being undead.

It's very possible to get more than two turning pools via domains, and they will all benefit from extra turning. There's a few prcs that grant variant turning pools or extra domains. If you can run your druid off cha instead of wis, that would be ideal for that, of course, though cha isn't difficult to raise regardless.

[Dolour]

we stick with the rules on that one, hence im only allowed to use turn or rebuke undead pools.
otherwise a 2nd level of holt warden would be sweet. :p
i couldnt find anything in the domain list tho that wold specifically add another "undead related" pool.

/edit: oh, and hes goina start with 16wis/16cha, since abilities in wildshape form rely on cha.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm on mobile or else I would quote to you the relevant rules, but in summary: unless a source specifies, turning is a general activity, and turning/ rebuking/ turning non-undead/ what-have-you are all equivalent. There's quotes explaining it in both phb and CD.

[Dolour]

the problem is in the divine metamagic description:
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.

every pool, plant, elemental, you name it, benefits from stuff like extra turning, but afaik isnt applicable for DMM.
cant say id be unhappy if your able to point something out that i might have missed tho. :p

[GilesTheCleric]

For DMM, I think you're correct; I just wanted to make sure you were aware in case you wanted to power other things like devotion/ feats. I haven't actually made a max-pool build for DMM yet (what's the difference between t1 and t1?), so I haven't looked for a way around that - instead, I typically just get turn+ rebuke+ greater turn on low-cha builds.

[Dolour]

For DMM, I think you're correct; I just wanted to make sure you were aware in case you wanted to power other things like devotion/ feats. I haven't actually made a max-pool build for DMM yet (what's the difference between t1 and t1?), so I haven't looked for a way around that - instead, I typically just get turn+ rebuke+ greater turn on low-cha builds.

i havent found a legit way to cheese rebuke yet without loosing caster levels, but me too would be totally fine with moderate cha and 3 pools. ;)

[GilesTheCleric]

If you find one, let me know. I typically build for concepts rather than TO/ max power, so I don't often attempt to figure out exploits or over-the-top tricks.

[Dolour]

If you find one, let me know. I typically build for concepts rather than TO/ max power, so I don't often attempt to figure out exploits or over-the-top tricks.

actually i wanted to do exactly that, stick with 8druid/10ps/2hward, and use rebuke plants for "green metamagic", sticking with just ONE pool.
riding the plant topic, cheesing a way to a woodling companion ultimately(exalted companion allows for templates IIRC?), reling on woodling summons, and using woodling for my own wildshapage...
wich wouldve made it fairly easy to deal with a crapton of summons, due to the fire-vulnerability of woodlings.
its the dm who blew that whole idea, and i repeatedly tried to warn him about the consequences of this multiple pool min/maxing ona allready incredibly powerfull class,
and eliminating the injected vulnerability/out of control summoning handle mechanism.

[GilesTheCleric]

Wait, you wanted to make something flavorful rather than powerful and your GM shot it down?

Three might be a way to combine your companion with leadership so that you become able to put templates on it. I don't recall if there's a way to put arbitrary templates on mounts (just specific things like celestial or pseudonatural, I think). The ultimate solution for everything is PAO, of course, but that's not until the end of a build.

There's a discussion going on in another thread about magic circle and druid summons, so that's another weakness.

[Dolour]

Wait, you wanted to make something flavorful rather than powerful and your GM shot it down?
yeah its a shame, it somewhat turned into an optimization challange.
i kinda planned on giving up the typical free mount and roll with an(woodling) ape, but by now i doubt its goina work out that way.
the initial idea was just stuffed with as much nature and plant features as possible, wich is ofc somehwat ruined by all the cleric influcnce.
ill see how much of it can be carried over tho. ;)


Three might be a way to combine your companion with leadership so that you become able to put templates on it. I don't recall if there's a way to put arbitrary templates on mounts (just specific things like celestial or pseudonatural, I think). The ultimate solution for everything is PAO, of course, but that's not until the end of a build.
leadership got banned and we agreed on not pulling off any poly cheese, so thats off the table.
exalted companion gives you magical beasts or celestial beats afaik, wich would at least allow for intelligent companions.


There's a discussion going on in another thread about magic circle and druid summons, so that's another weakness.
hmmm, interrsting. gotta look that up.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm no expert on druids, so the only trick I know to get any animal companion is going through pally for mount to leadership, then making the mount the companion. You could cheese WBL and spend on reincarnate scrolls until you get the desired result; mind switch, magic jar or similar might work if you get the original companion with umd. Glamer spells just aren't satisfying, but are always an option. This is pretty difficult to do without complex or GM-adjudication-required tricks.

Maybe there's a way to do it through the wizard familiar? I'm no expert on wizard tricks.

I don't think sanctuary has any intelligence requirement for its effect, otherwise that might be another counter. There's a few sanctuary-alikes that might, such as from singer of concordance; if your companions are undead (probably against a druid's MO) then there's effects that block unintelligent undead from entering spaces.

[Dolour]

acrane hierophant allows to fuse a wizard familiar with an animal copanion, but i didnt really plan on picking up arcane spells too...

any druid experts around?
and im still worried about the undeath domain and pelor...

[Tvtyrant]

Okay, how often are you planning on using DMM? Because Illumians get it 2/day as a SU ability, and it does not reference undead (just turn or rebuke attempt). So no need to get turn or rebuke undead when you can use it with turn or rebuke plants or animals or whatever.

"But I don't want to be an Illumian." Great, me neither. Assume Supernatural Ability Feat+ Polymorph can get you Aeshoon Power Sigils using a fourth level spell slot and a feat, and for each fourth level slot it renews itself.

[Douglas]

at the same time ive been "persuaded" into picking up 2 turning pools(are 3 even technically possible without violating some rules?),
and going whacko on devine metamagic.
There are a very small number of cleric alternate class features that swap Turn/Rebuke out for something similar, and explicitly state that it counts as Turn/Rebuke Undead (specifically) for the purpose of Divine feats. Get one of those, and pick up normal Turn and Rebuke from a pair of other sources, and you'll have 3 DMM-usable pools.

[Dolour]

There are a very small number of cleric alternate class features that swap Turn/Rebuke out for something similar, and explicitly state that it counts as Turn/Rebuke Undead (specifically) for the purpose of Divine feats. Get one of those, and pick up normal Turn and Rebuke from a pair of other sources, and you'll have 3 DMM-usable pools.

interresting.
any source where to find sayd alternative class features?

[Crake]

Where are you getting your 2 turn pools from? I'm only seeing 1 from sacred exorcist which is then stacked with the one from radiant servant, so it remains as a single pool. Note you also need the sun domain for radiant servant, so you cant grab the undeath domain with contemplative to get extra turning, you would need to get the sun domain. If you're thinking that the greater turning can be used to fuel DMM, it can't. It's not actually a turn/rebuke, it's an ability that modifies turns/rebukes, and thus cant actually be used to fuel divine feats.

[Rebel7284]

interresting.
any source where to find sayd alternative class features?

- Turn Essentia from Tome of Magic.
- Rebuke Dragons in one of the dragon based books.
- I think there is a rebuke oozes too, somewhere, that also counts for divine feats.

Usually on a cleric base you can combine as following to get 3 turning pools with only one lost caster level. However, on a druid base, you lose 2.
Azurin Cleric 1
Death Delver 1
Sacred Exorcist 1

Also there is a druid spell that creates an item that stores one turning attempt. <edit>Bone Talisman is the spell</edit>

Also, if nightsticks are allowed, you really only need one turning pool and a bunch of cash.

<edit2>
Also, see if you are allowed to pick up that Mystic domain that gives Turn Undead. Saves you from taking Sacred Exorcists. Possibly use Catalogues of Enlightenment to pick it up?
</edit2>

[Dolour]

Where are you getting your 2 turn pools from? I'm only seeing 1 from sacred exorcist which is then stacked with the one from radiant servant, so it remains as a single pool.
"Extra Greater Turning: The radiant servant of Pelor can perform a greater turning (the granted power of the Sun domain) a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."
"Turn Undead: A radiant servant of Pelor adds his radiant servant class levels to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead."
it explicitly states you get another pool.


Note you also need the sun domain for radiant servant, so you cant grab the undeath domain with contemplative to get extra turning, you would need to get the sun domain. If you're thinking that the greater turning can be used to fuel DMM, it can't. It's not actually a turn/rebuke, it's an ability that modifies turns/rebukes, and thus cant actually be used to fuel divine feats.
ive had to go through a crapton of prc's before i found one that doesent "convert" your regular turn ability to rebuke, but the radiant servant1/sacred exo1 splash actually gets you 2 legit turning pools.
weather "greater" turn undead is eligible for DMM fueling is arguable, but by the rules(and this is where your implication originates from) turning/rebuking is tied to the creature type,
rather than the actual effect, wich is why your pools usually get altered instead of one getting another fresh pool if you earn TU related class features.

good point on the sun domain tho.
the text lists it under spells:
"Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and access to the Sun domain."
wouldnt DRUIDS logically get acess to this kinda "natury" type of spells?
and if not, is there an alternative method of picking up the sun domain(however im still unsure weather undeath would be allowed at all for a pelor follower.)?
getting sun through the 1contempl. level seems like a good idea(havent thought of that at all, lol).

/edit: btw, why would radiant servant grant me the benefits of the SUN domain, if its allready an entry requirnment?
this seems to point at the requirnment being aimed at available spells, rather than posessing the actual domain.
cos if not, a lvl of contemplative should allready grant an extra greater TU pool when you pick up SUN, if im not mistaken?
edit: nm, the sun domain description states the TU conversion thingy...

/edit2:
Also, if nightsticks are allowed, you really only need one turning pool and a bunch of cash.
nope, there wont be any stacking bonusses from similar sources. otherwise id roll with one pool and craft wondrous item. :p

/edit3: doesent Azurin Cleric require a specific race(bc were only allowed the "boring" regular ones)?
and if be glad if you could tell me wich source its in, cant find anything googling that actually tells me wich book.

[Crake]

"Extra Greater Turning: The radiant servant of Pelor can perform a greater turning (the granted power of the Sun domain) a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."
"Turn Undead: A radiant servant of Pelor adds his radiant servant class levels to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead."
it explicitly states you get another pool.

You're mistaking "Extra Greater Turning" as a turn undead pool. Greater turning is the sun domain ability, which is not the turn undead ability, but rather a modifier to the way turn undead works. Using a greater turn requires expending a turn undead attempt. It is not actually the turn undead ability itself, but an ability that modifies the way turn undead works. Normally the sun domain only grants it 1/day, radiant servant of pelor increases that to 3+cha mod. As such, it cannot fuel divine feats.

[Dolour]

thats been subject of discussion quite amany times...
the thing is that radiant servant doesent require "turn undead"(a holt warden with rebuke plants can allso have extra turning, without the ability to turn undead at all),
and thus its assumed it comes with its own pool.
is there any errata entry clarifying this prolly?

well, just in case, letz give it an aproach from a different angle:
were a druid after all, right? screw undead!
elementals have tons of druid flavor, so letz think elemental metamagic for a second:
(cant say id be unhappy to return to pure delicious flavor that doesent get perverted with cleric splashes)

using the unearthed acrana domain druid(air)5/pshepard10/contem1(earth)/??
would grant us 2 elemental turning pools, and still leave a couple levels to play with...
are there any prc's granting fire and/or water domain, respectively correlating turning abilities, without requiring TU to alter?

/edit: Wavekeeper grants water domain as one of the options.
requires an animal companion with swim speed.
hello polar bear :p
costs a caster level tho =(

/edit2: divine disciple (frcs) gets you a free domain from your deities list.
is it even possible to worship something gaya-force-of-nature style, instead of some pimp-monster?

would be kinda sweet, coz(granted i can talk my dm into this whole elemental metamagic type of deal) this would lead to:
ddru8/pshep10/cont1/ddis1

acess to air, water and earth domain(wich suits the overall lamania theme), means 3 turning pools, the ability to telepethically communicate with outsiders(wich might come in handy,
considering the planar shepards wildshape abilities and form dependant inability to speak), full caster progression, and stays within the max 4lvl ws, 5lvl companion drop limit.

if i can find a way to cheese plant wildshape(big dissapointment here, you go all nature crap and loose plant wildshape) im kinda set. :p
is there a feat or something that would bolster my druid lvl by 4, for the purposes of determinating ws-type?

[Rebel7284]

Sorry I miss-quotes the sources.

Azurin Cleric is in Magic of Incarnum, p. 42
Rebuke Dragons is in Dragon Magic, p. 14

[Dolour]

well, thnx for the input so far...
had a talk to my dm, and he seems to like this whole elemental metamagic idea(wich i find sorta strange,
since he totally wouldnt let me roll with holt wardens rebuke plants, and now i end up with 3 pools instead of one).
i still need some sort of "official" alternative to Enchanted Animal Companion, but after some cookig it looks like this for now:

rolling with the druid domain "houserule" from unearthed arcana.
human ddru8/ps10/ddis1/cont1 (water, earth & air domain. plane lamania, deity obad-hai)
8/8/14/14/16/16 32point buy, bumps in wis

lvl1 ddru1: Greensinger Initiate, Quicken Spell
lvl2 ddru2: -
lvl3 ddru3: Elemental Metamagic: Quicken (get Rapid Spell via rod)
lvl4 ddru4: -
lvl5 ddru5: -
lvl6 pshep1: Natural Spell
lvl7 pshep2: -
lvl8 pshep3: -
lvl9 pshep4: Templated Summoning* (Divine Worldmeet Glade version?)
lvl10 pshep5: var(clvl9+) Metamagic Storm: Residual Magic
lvl11 pshep6: -
lvl12 pshep7: Enchanted Animal Companion? (Extra Turning, Companion Spellbond)
lvl13 pshep8: -
lvl14 pshep9: -
lvl15 ddis1: Repeat Spell? (Chain Spell)
lvl16 pshep10: -
lvl17 cont1: -
lvl18 ddru6: Heighten Spell
lvl19 ddru7: -
lvl20 ddru8: -

*apply a(natural) template to summoned creatures, using the according level adjustment.
(applying any given lvladjustemt seems like a nobrainer at first, but looking up some of the summoning threads, i figured its important to point out, unless you
wanna end up with dr10/slash, magic cr1-mobs. i really like the general idea tho, and its a shame that theres just ONE usable feat out there doing that.)

i might ditch enchanted companion(alltho an intelligent comrade would be awsome) in favor of extra turning,
or companion spellbond if i see a need for it arising at that point(or swap places with repeat).
big rock in the way are the 8 ranks of religion required, wich delays additional pools to lvl14+.
any ideas on how to speed that up without giving up wildshape hd or caster lvl?

i tried to assign feats that either require to NOT be whored through items(for residual magic purposes), or would generally feel to
cheesy to aquire through gear.
extra turning for ex looks like a good candidate for an upgrade by 10kgold item, while an upgraded companion aquired in that manner
would most likely cause several blunt or pointy objects to be thrown at a certain player...

and i at least TRIED to make the increase in powerlvl somewhat gradual, but due to the 8ranks religion thingy its got a major jump between
14 and 16, when all the really nifty stuff comes in.

[GilesTheCleric]

What is Enchanted Animal Companion, and what sort of replacement are you looking for for it?

[Dolour]

Enchanted Animal Companion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Enchanted_Animal_Companion_%283.5e_Feat%29) is from the netbook of feats, and allows for a magical beast or vermin as animal companion
(without the "good" restriction from exalted companion). basically it IS what im looking for, my dm just isnt comfortable with 3rd party stuff.

allso, im still looking for a way to whore plant wildshape legally.
id kinda like both for fluff, even tho i expect this magical beast companion thing to attract trouble on noumerous occasions...

[Heliomance]

If you're going for an optimized character, I advise against investing any resources into healing other than gold. Iirc druid has Heal on their list, and that's the only one you need. If you want passive healing, off the top of my head the psychoactive skin of the troll is the cheapest apart from custom items or being undead.

Actually, Druids also have the best out-of-combat healing spell on their list, and can spontaneously cast it as well. Summon Nature's Ally IV. Summon yourself a unicorn, and have it healbot you.

[Dolour]

thats where repeat spell comes in handy.
whats better than 1d4+1 unicorns?
2d4+2 unicorns!
guess what, residual magic lets you do it again, only for free. :p
(and it quite works IN combat too if needed ~~)

/edit: question on res.magic:
lets say ill cast a repeat sna, spiced up via a rod of rapid spell and quicken payed with turn charges, am i allowed to
apply the free repeat right after the quickened spell, expending your regular action, or does it require the next combat-
round to start, before you can trigger its benefits?