Weapons of Legacy doubt

[bootzin]

Hey guys!

So, I have a doubt..

Weapons of Legacy are usually considered ****ty due to the harsh penalties you must take in order to use them.

BUT, I was reading through the Weapons of Legacy book at page 11 where they say 2 important things regarding defeating another weapon of legacy wielder.

First of them is that you may discover a new tier of abilities to your weapon, and second is that you may skip paying the gp costs of the rituals necessary to achieve a new tier of abilities.

So, my doubt is: Can I have a legacy katana, for instance, with 2 least abilities in each level instead of one, 2 lesser, 2 greater and so on? And I could get the lesser and greater benefits of it without paying it's gold cost? Wouldn't that make them worthy? (And probably broken?)

EDIT----

One more thing. What prevents a 1 lvl psion 19 lvls fighter from taking the tables that takes basically power points and manifester level away? (From the personal penalties tables)

[Ashtagon]

Dunno about the first part, but...


One more thing. What prevents a 1 lvl psion 19 lvls fighter from taking the tables that takes basically power points and manifester level away? (From the personal penalties tables)

The fact that you have no power points stops you. You can't spend something you don't have.

[Red Fel]

So, my doubt is: Can I have a legacy katana, for instance, with 2 least abilities in each level instead of one, 2 lesser, 2 greater and so on? And I could get the lesser and greater benefits of it without paying it's gold cost? Wouldn't that make them worthy? (And probably broken?)

Well, let's discuss that. Basically, the passage you cite states that, if you wield a legacy item, and defeat someone else wielding a legacy item, you gain a Legacy Gift. You seem to be referring to two Legacy Gifts: Discover New Legacy: You complete a Founding Event. Basically, you get on the fast track to your Least, Lesser, or Greater Legacy feat. Note, however, that you still have to design the next tier of abilities, and still have to pay all relevant costs and perform all relevant rituals. Learn Legacy: You are treated as having completed the Knowledge check to learn the next Legacy ritual, and don't have to pay the gp cost if you do it within 30 days. You still have to cover other requirements and costs, and qualify for the ritual.
You should recognize, first and foremost, that you don't get both - you get one.

First off, the provision you're citing is only relevant if the DM provides you with an enemy wielding a legacy item. As a rule, when you say "This isn't broken, because the DM can do something to make it suck less," you're invoking a form of the Oberoni Fallacy. (Not the fallacy itself, but a sort of corollary to it.) In this case, you're saying that the WoL can be upgraded more easily if the DM decides to throw more WoLs at you. That's not a fix, it's begging the DM to let your item suck less.

With respect to Discover New Legacy, you don't get to double-up on your WoL's powers. It's not like you add a second Least category to it. You simply get to design the next tier. So if you've unlocked your Least Legacy already, you can design your Lesser Legacy, but you don't yet have access to it. You can't put two Least abilities in each level; that's not how it works. Further, if you're using one of the pre-constructed WoLs, this Legacy Gift is useless, since all of the item's tiers have already been written. Discover New Legacy only works for custom WoLs.

With respect to Learn Legacy, here's the thing. People don't complain as much about the Knowledge checks or gp costs of the rituals. You can cheese a Knowledge DC, you can find gp laying around the homes of people you murder. That's not the complaint. The complaints are, primarily: The costs. Take a look at p. 185-87. You're taking penalties to attack rolls, saves, hit points, skill checks, CL, spell slots, ML, power points. These are the costs that are seen as "broken," generally. The benefits. Compare any given legacy weapon to a custom magic item. The legacy weapon is worse. On a custom magic item, you can get precisely what you want and need, no frills, no extraneous or unwanted bits, and no progressive penalties to attack rolls, caster level, or power points.
Neither Discover New Legacy nor Learn Legacy address these concerns. You still have to pay progressive costs for an item that, with very few exceptions, is almost strictly inferior to a custom magic item. Consider, for example, Ghostfolly's Gloves. At level 6, you have a pair of gloves for which you're taking a -1 penalty to attacks, -2 HP, and -4 skill points. For that, you've got a pair of gloves that appear nonmagical and let you make a melee attack for 1d6 slashing. Or you could wield a weapon that gives you a bonus to attacks, does not penalize HP or skills, and likely deals more damage.

Look at Planeshifter's Knife. At 10th level, it has cost you -1 to saves, -1 to skill checks, -1 to CL, and a 3rd-level spell slot. Brutal. In exchange, you have a +1 dagger that lets you sense extraplanar beings, lets you See Invisibility 5/day, lets you use Rope Trick 1/day, and lets you hide from extraplanar beings. Or you could, I don't know, just learn Rope Trick and Invisibility, and not take penalties to CL, spell slots, and saves. Oh, and get a better weapon, because Planeshifter's Knife stays a +1 dagger all its life.

That's the point. Very little that a WoL can do is worth the penalties, and unless you're custom-crafting it, the abilities often include stuff you don't need. Being able to upgrade it without having to pay the cost is nice, but even so, it's not generally worth it.

[bootzin]

Ok, so, first of all, would removing the penalties make Legacy items broken?

And secondly, I'm planning on doing the following Legacy item:


Base: +1 Legacy Gnomish Quick Razor or possible +1 Hideaway Claw Bracer.
Omen: Material: It makess it seems like it is dripping blood when you pretend to kill someone with it (Or maybe it shines blueish when getting near orcs, haha)
Rituals: kill someone undetected, kill a well known target without getting blamed, kill someone powerful (min +2 CR) in one round.
Ritual Cost: Table 4-3; -3 skill checks, -20 HP, 38,000gp.
5: Sneak Attack - +1d6 Sneak Attack
6: Faithful Strike - +1 att/dmg per 3 character levels against "good" aligned creatures.
7: -
8: Enhancement - +1 Assassination
9: Higher Vantage - Gain a Climb Speed of 20ft.
10: Sting Like A Bee - +1d6 damage if smaller than your opponent.
11*: -
12: Enhancement - +1 Assassination Deadly Precision(MiC version)
13: Sneak Attack - +2d6 Sneak Attack
14: Boundless Determination/misc - You can use the Assassin's Stance.
15: Slippery Barrier - Swift Action 5x5 Grease.
16: Invisibility - At Will.
17*: Enhancement - +1 Assassination Deadly Precision Deadly Precision(CAd version)
18: Between the Ribs - +4 to attack & damage while Sneak Attacking.
19: Sneak Attack - +3d6 Sneak Attack.
20: Enhancement - +3 Assassination Deadly Precision Deadly Precision


Would you think it is worth it?

[Red Fel]

Ok, so, first of all, would removing the penalties make Legacy items broken?

I'm inclined to say no. I don't like the idea of costs. I don't see what they add, aside from a price tag. If you absolutely must impose a cost, I'd refrain from imposing them on attacks, saves, CL/ML, or spell slots/PP; no penalizing stuff that matters. If you absolutely have to, penalize skills and HP, the stuff least likely to cripple your character.


Would you think it is worth it?

Well, let's first total its enhancements, shall we? At level 20, it's a +3 Assassination (+1) Deadly Precision (+2) Deadly Precision (+2) weapon. I don't think you can stack a weapon enhancement twice, so let's drop one of those DPs. That leaves us with +3 +1 +2, a +6 weapon that adds +1d6 damage when an enemy is denied Dex to AC (Assassination) and another +2d6 specifically when you use Sneak Attack (Deadly Precision).

So far, a bit underwhelming for a weapon at level 20. But let's keep going. You also add a total of +3d6 Sneak Attack damage (on top of the +3d6 from Assassination and Deadly Precision), plus another +1d6 if you're smaller than your enemy, plus Assassin's Stance (which grants Sneak Attack and adds another 2d6). You add +1 to attack and damage per 3 character levels (+6/+6 at 20), and +4 to attack and damage while using Sneak Attack. You can create Grease as a swift action (how many times/day?) and at-will Invisibility.

It does work together very nicely. Invisibility lets you deny your enemies their Dex-to-AC against you. At level 20, this means you get a total of +17 to attack (+3 from enhancement, +6 from Faithful Strike, +4 from Between the Ribs), and +9d6+10 damage on top of that, assuming the target isn't otherwise immune to sneak attacks.

But is it worth it? You've basically piled a bunch of dice onto this weapon. That's its power. Aside from Grease and Invisibility, its sole function is stacking up Sneak Attack dice. And while an extra 41-42 damage per hit is fairly substantial, look at what other people might be doing with their weapons. Ghost Touch. Flaming Burst. Eager. Defending. Throwing. People are making their weapons highly functional. This one is still dependent upon getting close enough to an enemy to stab him unnoticed; barring that, it's simply a +3 weapon that lets you use Grease and Invisibility. I'm not sure that's worth it, to be honest.

Out of curiosity, did you use the charts in WoL to plot out these abilities, or did you just pick them as you liked? Because if we're departing from the WoL creation rules (aside from costs, we'd do fine to ignore those), it really boils down to personal preference and what your DM allows.

[torrasque666]

I'm inclined to say no. I don't like the idea of costs. I don't see what they add, aside from a price tag. If you absolutely must impose a cost, I'd refrain from imposing them on attacks, saves, CL/ML, or spell slots/PP; no penalizing stuff that matters. If you absolutely have to, penalize skills and HP, the stuff least likely to cripple your character.

I dunno. I played with the Faithful Avenger from ToB on a Crusader once and it didn't seem to make too much of an impact. At 20th you end up with a +1 to hit and +3 to damage weapon, -1 to Fort Saves, bonus on evil/good creatures, Restoration and Restoration, Lesser as SLAs (1/day and 3/day respectively) a free stance/bonus HP for already having the stance, and the ability to completely ignore a single attack.

And honestly, there should be a cost, and it should be important. Frankly nothing should come free or lacking inconvenience. A cost has to hit you where it hurts, not where its a pinprick. If losing a few pieces of your character completely cripples it, you're too overspecialized or reliant on having a perfect build.

[Red Fel]

And honestly, there should be a cost, and it should be important. Frankly nothing should come free or lacking inconvenience. A cost has to hit you where it hurts, not where its a pinprick. If losing a few pieces of your character completely cripples it, you're too overspecialized or reliant on having a perfect build.

But by the same token, when the cost "hit[s] you where it hurts," it should be for something profoundly powerful, something you can't replicate with money. Feats are a good parallel - any feat that you can reproduce either by buying an item or spending money to stay in the Otyugh Hole is a feat that you shouldn't waste a precious slot acquiring. Similarly, unless your WoL does something truly powerful and unique, there is very little justification for using that WoL as opposed to other means - means which generally won't cost you things like attack, spell slots, or CL.

I understand the mentality of things not coming for free, but as soon as you start charging a special price, you have to have a product that's worth it - and WoLs generally aren't.

[bootzin]

My character will be using this weapon mainly for one reason: killing things fast and unnoticed.

I do agree that the wepon may be overspescialized and there may be better ones, but it is what it was meant to be

Thanks for all of your tips, guys, really

I'll probably have 2 weapons with me, one of them will be a legacy weapon (that I picked for maximizing sneak attack), and the other will be a normal one..

I used the rules and tables of WoL for creating my quickrazor, but i used Umbral Awn for the extra sneak attack, reverse engineering it

I'll see if I really like the weapon and evaluate if I'll really use it, I'll tell you guys how did it came to be

Any advices are still appreciated (:

And IIRC, I can cast grease 3/day At

EDIT---
Is there any better way of maximizing sneak attack on a weapon?

EDIT 2-----

Do you have any better ways of improving the weapon fitting the concept of a hidden dagger?

I mean, I want to make a weapon like the Assassin's Creed hidden dagger, allowing me to kill unnoticed, and I'm going to use a lot of poisoning as well, although this is not my main strategy

My character concept's is to be the perfect assassin and spy, being capable of infiltrating places unnoticed, killing whomever it judges necessary with no regret and leaving unnoticed, and I'd like a weapon that fitted this concept.

[Red Fel]

Is there any better way of maximizing sneak attack on a weapon?

Rather than merely maximizing it, consider broadening it. Weapon crystals can allow you to apply sneak attack damage to ordinarily immune creatures, so why not figure out a value as an enhancement, and apply that as a weapon ability? That's unique and valuable, a weapon that by default can apply its SA damage broadly.

Another option is to apply the benefit of the Improved Feint feat. Feinting, as you recall, allows you to remove your enemy's Dex-to-AC. Improved Feint lets you do it as a move action instead of a swift action. You could add a feature that says as follows: "The wielder gains the benefit of the Improved Feint feat. If the wielder already has Improved Feint, he may feint as a swift action instead of as a move action." Bam. You can now use a swift action to deny your enemy his Dex-to-AC, thereby enabling SA. As a side note, that ability is comparable with the capstone ability of the Invisible Blade PrC from CW, which allows you to feint as a free action. I find that a WoL that reproduces abilities that would require substantial investment in a class is far more valuable than one which just stacks on enhancements or bonus dice.

[bootzin]

I agree with you, but since that would require some homebrew that could come to be a little broken, I don't think my group would react very nicely to it

Regarding already existing abilities, do you have any suggestions?

[jiriku]

I'm partial to wishes. A legacy ring of 3 wishes is actually a pretty solid item to get around level 18ish. Get it, attune to it, use your three wishes, give it away to someone else, move on.

[JyP]

The complaints are, primarily: The costs. Take a look at p. 185-87. You're taking penalties to attack rolls, saves, hit points, skill checks, CL, spell slots, ML, power points. These are the costs that are seen as "broken," generally.
The benefits. Compare any given legacy weapon to a custom magic item. The legacy weapon is worse. On a custom magic item, you can get precisely what you want and need, no frills, no extraneous or unwanted bits, and no progressive penalties to attack rolls, caster level, or power points.

[...]

Look at Planeshifter's Knife. At 10th level, it has cost you -1 to saves, -1 to skill checks, -1 to CL, and a 3rd-level spell slot. Brutal. In exchange, you have a +1 dagger that lets you sense extraplanar beings, lets you See Invisibility 5/day, lets you use Rope Trick 1/day, and lets you hide from extraplanar beings. Or you could, I don't know, just learn Rope Trick and Invisibility, and not take penalties to CL, spell slots, and saves. Oh, and get a better weapon, because Planeshifter's Knife stays a +1 dagger all its life.

That's the point. Very little that a WoL can do is worth the penalties, and unless you're custom-crafting it, the abilities often include stuff you don't need. Being able to upgrade it without having to pay the cost is nice, but even so, it's not generally worth it.
At 10th level, Planeshifter's Knife costs 2302 gp + 3200 gp for the first legacy ritual.

If it was custom magic items it would be 2302 gp (+1 dagger) + detect alien which should be 1x5x1800 gp, see invisibility 5/day which is 2x5x1800 gp, rope trick 2x10x 2000/5 gp, hide from undead 1x5x1800/5 gp = 2302 + 36,000 gp. Or as a single item : as it uses multiple several abilities (DMG p.282), it could be 29,250 gp instead of 36,000 gp. Or 45,000 gp with the "multiple different abilities" rule on DMG p. 285.

=> a 10th-level character has 49,000 gp as WBL...

From my point of view, players can very easily see the costs for Legacy Items, and it's a mighty deterrent. But it is very difficult to see benefits on WBL as it is handled by DMs anyway, and not showed at all in the book.

Planeshifter's Knife would be usable for an X-Files low-magic campaign againt aliens (great for Mulder against shapeshifters), not every campaign, sure. Maybe every item of legacy was created to over-specialize againt specific circumstances - and like artefacts, items of legacy should be handled as story items with impacts on the campaign, not random treasures. It makes no sense to use Planeshifter's Knife for a 3rd-level to 10th-level spellcaster, as you said.

[Terazul]

At 10th level, Planeshifter's Knife costs 2302 gp + 3200 gp for the first legacy ritual.

If it was custom magic items it would be 2302 gp (+1 dagger) + detect alien which should be 1x5x1800 gp, see invisibility 5/day which is 2x5x1800 gp, rope trick 2x10x 2000/5 gp, hide from undead 1x5x1800/5 gp = 2302 + 36,000 gp. Or as a single item : as it uses multiple several abilities (DMG p.282), it could be 29,250 gp instead of 36,000 gp. Or 45,000 gp with the "multiple different abilities" rule on DMG p. 285.

=> a 10th-level character has 49,000 gp as WBL...

From my point of view, players can very easily see the costs for Legacy Items, and it's a mighty deterrent. But it is very difficult to see benefits on WBL as it is handled by DMs anyway, and not showed at all in the book.

Planeshifter's Knife would be usable for an X-Files low-magic campaign againt aliens (great for Mulder against shapeshifters), not every campaign, sure. Maybe every item of legacy was created to over-specialize againt specific circumstances - and like artefacts, items of legacy should be handled as story items with impacts on the campaign, not random treasures. It makes no sense to use Planeshifter's Knife for a 3rd-level to 10th-level spellcaster, as you said.

Yeah, the thing about Legacy Weapons is the abilities are actually absurdly cost efficient compared to buying them individually. There's also some stupid good, unable to be replicated elsewhere abilities like Cunning; never be flat-footed. Period. The issue is, most (nearly all) of the printed ones suck, and the penalties are kind of terrible. The easiest way around this is to construct a custom one using the rules given, and use one of the tables that sucks the least (I remember a thread that did the math on this, but can't remember which two were generally considered the go-to ones). In addition, see if you can get your group to waive the stat/spell/skill/hp penalties into some sort of other obligation (my groups favored a 10%ish XP penalty), since otherwise, custom Legacy Weapons are really cool from a storytelling standpoint.