1/2 hd?

[Yasahiro]

Okay, this iwll be a VEEEEERY Dumb question.

Why do some creatures have 1/2 of a hitdice or 1/4? What if a player plays as awakened cat? Do they have 1/2 of the HD of their chosen class or do they get the full HD?

[Platymus Pus]

Okay, this iwll be a VEEEEERY Dumb question.

Why do some creatures have 1/2 of a hitdice or 1/4? What if a player plays as awakened cat? Do they have 1/2 of the HD of their chosen class or do they get the full HD?

I'd think they'd get full hit die.
After all you aren't taking more levels in cat, you're taking more levels in fighter or barb.
Least how I view it.

[Shoat]

I always assumed it reduced the HP roll for that racial HD to 1/2 or 1/4 (so that you don't have to deal with an 8 HP housecat), so if a player was to take one of those creatures as a character (and your DM judges that you HAVE to take the racial HD even for things that have only 1 RHD or less) he'd get less health from that RHD (but otherwise profits fully from it) and of course it doesn't affect any RHD or class levels from other sources.

[Yasahiro]

Why is the 1/2 or 1/4 of HD even a thing, though? Besides making a challenge easier...

Is it because making exceptions to HP of a creature that has racial hitdice of a higher number than they think it should be, would be tiresome?

[General Sajaru]

Basically. A cat is still an animal, so it uses a d8 as its hit die, but an average cat with 4 HP was deemed too high; hence the fractional hit die.

[Urpriest]

Basically. A cat is still an animal, so it uses a d8 as its hit die, but an average cat with 4 HP was deemed too high; hence the fractional hit die.

Yup.

Note that while players can't play awakened cats (awakening doesn't change a creature's level adjustment), they can play Grigs, which do have fractional hit dice. What happens in that instance is not well described.

[DrMotives]

It may not be RAW, but I think RAI is that the "first class level HD replaces RHD if RHD=1" applies to RHD below 1 as well. Also, the awaken spell adds 2 HD, and turns all RHD of an animal into magical beast. The thing I'm unsure of is the awakened cat a 2 or 3 HD magical beast? I'd be tempted if a PC asked to ignore the added 2 dice, and allow the first HD to be replaced by a class level, like all 1 HD humanoids.

[Curmudgeon]

There aren't any rounding rules for HD, so you retain the fraction. It's inconvenient, but not otherwise a problem.

[Taelas]

"Humanoids and Class Levels
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm
Therefore a Grig with ½d6 HD would replace it with their class HD if they took a level in a class.

[atemu1234]

"Humanoids and Class Levels
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm

True, but that may only refer to humanoids. I'd let a player do it, though.

[Taelas]

It refers to any creature. The text makes an assumption that PC races are humanoid (even when speaking of monsters), but that is not a given.

[Curmudgeon]

It refers to any creature.
It refers to any creature who is a Humanoid. That rule immediately follows the "Humanoids And Class Levels" header, which you can find here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#humanoidsAndClassLevels), or in "Improving Monsters" (Monster Manual, page 290). You'll find this rule in two other places in Monster Manual: Humanoid section in "Making Monsters" (page 295) and Humanoid Type definition in Glossary (page 310).

[atemu1234]

It refers to any creature who is a Humanoid. That rule immediately follows the "Humanoids And Class Levels" header, which you can find here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#humanoidsAndClassLevels), or in "Improving Monsters" (Monster Manual, page 290). You'll find this rule in two other places in Monster Manual: Humanoid section in "Making Monsters" (page 295) and Humanoid Type definition in Glossary (page 310).

But it doesn't refer to specifically just humanoids within the section. In absentum, this refers to all "monsters" by the basic text. The pretext doesn't really matter.

Essentially, it's RAW supported, and quite frankly, it make sense.

[Curmudgeon]

But it doesn't refer to specifically just humanoids within the section.
Why would it need to? There's nothing unclear about the header setting the context for what type of creatures the paragraph refers to. Your argument would require every mention of "character" in Player's Handbook to have "player" in front of it — because if you can ignore context for a paragraph you can certainly ignore context for an entire book.

I don't want to be downwind of what you're trying to shovel there.

[atemu1234]

Why would it need to? There's nothing unclear about the header setting the context for what type of creatures the paragraph refers to. Your argument would require every mention of "character" in Player's Handbook to have "player" in front of it — because if you can ignore context for a paragraph you can certainly ignore context for an entire book.

I don't want to be downwind of what you're trying to shovel there.

But you can use the player's handbook to make characters who are not players.

It refers specifically to creatures with less than 1 hd, not just humanoids.

[Inevitability]

A similar case is being a lycanthrope [creature with less than 1 HD]. You can end up with something like 7.25 hit dice.

[ShurikVch]

Isn't Savage Species still a valid source about playing unspecified non-humanoid?

Hit Dice: A monster’s “kind” is, in many ways, its character class (see Chapter 3: Classes for more on this concept); in this sense, its Hit Dice are equivalent to its monster class levels. If a creature has 1 Hit Die or a fractional Hit Die, the first Hit Die it gains in an actual character class replaces its racial Hit Die or portion thereof, and the character functions as any other member of its class.
Introductory monsters are the ones best suited for copying directly from the Monster Manual and adding class levels (see the Quick and Dirty sidebar, below). If the base creature has 1 Hit Die, the monster character’s first Hit Die comes from a character class, replacing its racial Hit Die, and the character functions as any other member of its class.
1 Hit Die creatures
A creature with a single Hit Die, like all standard-race characters, gives up that Hit Die when it gains its first class level. This makes such a creature somewhat different from other monster characters. In general, it is most advantageous for a 1 Hit Die creature with a +0 level adjustment to abandon its monster Hit Die and take class levels. While this chapter has detailed rules for each step of character creation, this sidebar collects the important information for dealing with 1 Hit Die creatures.
When building a monster character from a 1 Hit Die creature, determine its ability scores and the racial modifiers to those scores normally. Upon taking a level in a class, the creature gains that class’s base save bonuses and base attack bonus and loses the base save bonuses and base attack bonus it had as a monster. The new monster character gains skill points only from class levels, losing any that it had as a result of its monster Hit Die, but any racial bonuses on skill checks that the base creature was entitled to are retained. Multiply the skill points for the character’s first class level by 4, just as you would for any standard-race character. A 1 Hit Die creature may choose one feat, just like any other 1st-level character, and it also gains any additional feats granted by its class level. It retains any racial bonus feats of the base creature.
On the other hand, you may wish to keep that one monster Hit Die. If you do so, the character gets the skill points shown on Table 2–1 or Table 2–5 (and in Appendix 2: Compiled Tables) regardless of its Intelligence score. But in that case, you do not multiply the skill points gained from the character’s first class level by 4, because it is not a 1st-level character. The character gets the same number of feats as the base creature.
If your base creature has only 1 Hit Die and you choose to replace that with a class level (thus losing the associated base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, skill points, and feats), then your character gains a feat at 1st level, just like any other 1st-level character.
Monsters with less than 1 HD take on that character class entirely. (See the 1 Hit Die Creatures sidebar in Chapter 2: Building Monster Characters for more information.) For monsters with more than 1 HD, simply add the class levels to the existing monster. Chapter 2: Building Monster Characters contains all the guidelines you need to do that. The issue is which class to add. A specific need may dictate a specific class; for instance, your monsters may need a high priest, so you add cleric levels to one of them. Here are some guidelines for other situations.

A similar case is being a lycanthrope [creature with less than 1 HD]. You can end up with something like 7.25 hit dice. Aren't fractions universally rounded down? After all, you can't have 0.25 BAB... Also, how in that case calculate skill points, WBL and XP?

[Curmudgeon]

Isn't Savage Species still a valid source about playing unspecified non-humanoid?
No, it's not. It's a pre-3.5 source, and 3.5 Monster Manual (the primary source for such things) overrode any rules in Savage Species which don't agree.

Aren't fractions universally rounded down?
Not universally, no.

Rounding Fractions
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.
You don't round down something which starts out as a fraction; you only (generally) round down when a numerical computation winds up with a fractional result. A Grig (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#grig) starts out with ½ HD of Fey, which gives it +0 BAB. Any additions (of full HD) simply add their normal BAB contributions to that +0.

[ShurikVch]

No, it's not. It's a pre-3.5 source, and 3.5 Monster Manual (the primary source for such things) overrode any rules in Savage Species which don't agree. Your "overrode" is, actually, an overly tendentious expounding of just one single word: "Humanoid"


You don't round down something which starts out as a fraction; you only (generally) round down when a numerical computation winds up with a fractional result. A Grig (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#grig) starts out with ½ HD of Fey, which gives it +0 BAB. Any additions (of full HD) simply add their normal BAB contributions to that +0. In this case, say, Moonrat Ranger 1 will have BAB +1.25; Please, calculate it's hit chance against AC 11 :smalltongue:
Also, he have 2.5 base Fort and Ref saves, and 6.25 skill points...

[ExLibrisMortis]

No, it's not. It's a pre-3.5 source, and 3.5 Monster Manual (the primary source for such things) overrode any rules in Savage Species which don't agree.
Even if you read the MM sections as being only about humanoids, then that's still not in contradiction with the SS rules. The Monster Manual doesn't say that non-humanoids do not trade in their first HD, if they only have one.

[Urpriest]

Your "overrode" is, actually, an overly tendentious expounding of just one single word: "Humanoid"

In this case, say, Moonrat Ranger 1 will have BAB +1.25; Please, calculate it's hit chance against AC 11 :smalltongue:
Also, he have 2.5 base Fort and Ref saves, and 6.25 skill points...

Remember, you round down any derived quantities. It's only the hit die itself that isn't rounded.

[Curmudgeon]

Your "overrode" is, actually, an overly tendentious expounding of just one single word: "Humanoid"
What? There are many other 3.5 changes which invalidate Savage Species rules. The creature type pyramid is defunct, for instance. The rule about future Undead HD is no more. The scaling weight of weapons with size is completely different (2x in 3.5 rules vs. 1.5x in Savage Species). Weapon ranges no longer change with weapon size. Melee weapon reach is not a factor of weapon size as in Savage Species, but only of the size of the creature.

As I stated, the 3.5 primary source rules override Savage Species.

[atemu1234]

What? There are many other 3.5 changes which invalidate Savage Species rules. The creature type pyramid is defunct, for instance. The rule about future Undead HD is no more. The scaling weight of weapons with size is completely different (2x in 3.5 rules vs. 1.5x in Savage Species). Weapon ranges no longer change with weapon size. Melee weapon reach is not a factor of weapon size as in Savage Species, but only of the size of the creature.

As I stated, the 3.5 primary source rules override Savage Species.

But not that part of it. If a feat in a book is errata'd or changed, the entire book does not cease to contain applicable material. The line works, has not been overwritten, and that means that it still stands.

[Ruethgar]

As ExLibrisMortis and atemu1234 say, the MM 3.5 does not contain rules for non-humanoid creatures starting at <=1 HD and so it defaults back to SS to govern such cases.

[General Sajaru]

In this case, say, Moonrat Ranger 1 will have BAB +1.25; Please, calculate it's hit chance against AC 11 :smalltongue:
Also, he have 2.5 base Fort and Ref saves, and 6.25 skill points...

From the values used by the MM in the cases of creatures with fractional HD, you would get full BAB and saves from that fractional HD. That may not be the case elsewhere, however.

[nyjastul69]

As ExLibrisMortis and atemu1234 say, the MM 3.5 does not contain rules for non-humanoid creatures starting at <=1 HD and so it defaults back to SS to govern such cases.

The standard is that the rules tell one what they can do, not what they can't. The 3.5 rules overwrite previously written rules. There is no default fallback here. The 3.5 MM is clear on this issue. Humanoids, as type, get to swap out a single HD, if and only if, there is only a single HD in their entry. No other creature type states this, although there are exceptions, q.v. the pixie entry.

[Taelas]

As I said, the text makes an assumption that player races are humanoid, even when it makes clear that is not the only possibility. It's listed under that heading, yeah, but nothing in the entry specifies it only refers to them.

[nyjastul69]

As I said, the text makes an assumption that player races are humanoid, even when it makes clear that is not the only possibility. It's listed under that heading, yeah, but nothing in the entry specifies it only refers to them.

The rules are pretty clear here. The pixie entry shows an example of an exception to the standard that humanoids can swap out a single HD. There is no reason to assume that which is written within the humanoid section applies to all creature types.

[SinsI]

Why do some creatures have 1/2 of a hitdice or 1/4?
There are certain spells and abilities (i.e. Sleep and Gate) that affect a certain number of hitdice. When used on creatures with partial hitdice they affect more of those.

[ShurikVch]

The 3.5 rules overwrite previously written rules. There is no default fallback here. Except in case when 3.5 is silent about something, you go to 3.0
Don't forget: 3.5 is just an update of 3.0, not a separate system

[nyjastul69]

Except in case when 3.5 is silent about something, you go to 3.0
Don't forget: 3.5 is just an update of 3.0, not a separate system

I agree. The rules are not silent on this matter this however.

[atemu1234]

I agree. The rules are not silent on this matter this however.

They are on the matter of nonhumanoids if you disregard the fact that it says Creatures, not Humanoids. Creatures is somewhat more ambiguous (used to refer to pretty much everything). Then Savage Species takes precedent.

[ShurikVch]

The rules are not silent on this matter this however. But they are! They say about the "Humanoids and Class Levels", but (AFAIK) don't say anything about the non-humanoids

Also, this thread make me think about the Rosario + Vampire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosario_%2B_Vampire)-like scenario, where non-humanoid creatures are polymorphed into humanoids until they get their first class level... :smallamused:

[nyjastul69]

They are on the matter of nonhumanoids if you disregard the fact that it says Creatures, not Humanoids. Creatures is somewhat more ambiguous (used to refer to pretty much everything). Then Savage Species takes precedent.

I understand the point being made. To me, the fact that the Humanoid entry mentions swapping out a single RHD for a class level is precedent. No other creature type notes this. The exception listed in the pixie description solidifies this further for me. YMMV.

[Taelas]

At this point, I think I'll just throw in a link to a more reputable Playgrounder than myself:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

Specifically this bit:


Every Monster Comes with its Racial Hit Dice. If you are a Vrock, you have 10 Outsider Hit Dice, and they have a list of Class Skills which has everything listed in the Vrock's Skills: section. However, it is up to you to decide how you wish to spend the Vrock's skill points, you don't have to make the same choices the Vrock in the Monster Manual did. Similarly, you get to choose which Feats you want, getting one at first level and one on every Character Level that's a multiple of three.

There is one exception to this. If the Monster starts out with only one Racial Hit Die then you may (as per Savage Species, Page 13) trade it out for a level in a character class. You then gain none of the Features, but you still gain the Traits. For example, you could play a Pixie Rogue 1, trading your Fey Hit Die for a level of Rogue, leaving you with ECL 1+4=5. This happens automatically for Humanoids, which is why all of the low level humanoids in the Monster Manual are presented as first level Warriors.

[Urpriest]

At this point, I think I'll just throw in a link to a more reputable Playgrounder than myself:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

Specifically this bit:

Note that my analysis is from the perspective of rules-as-maximally-consistent, rather than rules as written. RAW, it's unclear whether that clause in Savage Species still holds, which is what this thread is trying to establish.

[Taelas]

Fair enough. Though I fail to see why it would not.

I see only two possible readings of the situation:
-the clause under "Humanoids and Class Levels" applies only to humanoids, in which case there is nothing that supersedes the 3.0 clause from Savage Species regarding non-humanoids, or
-the clause applies to all creatures, despite being under the "Humanoid and Class Levels" header (which, it must be pointed out, is itself under the "Monsters and Class Levels" header in the MM, pp. 290).

In either case, it means the same thing.

[Stegyre]

Why would it need to? There's nothing unclear about the header setting the context for what type of creatures the paragraph refers to. Your argument would require every mention of "character" in Player's Handbook to have "player" in front of it — because if you can ignore context for a paragraph you can certainly ignore context for an entire book.

I don't want to be downwind of what you're trying to shovel there.
This is silly, and bad argument.

"Humanoid" is a defined term. If they wished to limit the statement about one or fewer HD to humanoids, they could have (and should have) written "Humanoids" in the sentence, not merely in the heading.

"Creature" is a defined term. By RAW, it is not limited to humanoids. Humanoids are merely one subset of "creature" (though perhaps the most common for PCs).

Your contention is basically to ignore RAW in the actual sentence. That is not how RAW works, as you well know.