When do I lose human bouns feat?

[With a box]

1. polymorphed?
2. (true) mind switch?
3. reincarnate?
4. take some tamplates?
and is there some other condition that a human lose his bonus feat?

[JoranShadeslayr]

Not sure about the first 2 but if you reincarnate as anything other than human you loose the bonus feat although you gain the abilities of your new race. As for templates depends on the template.

[Urpriest]

Not sure about the first 2 but if you reincarnate as anything other than human you loose the bonus feat although you gain the abilities of your new race. As for templates depends on the template.

To expand on this, templates do what they say they do. There are probably some templates that explicitly make you lose your human bonus feat, but by default if a template doesn't change something explicitly it doesn't change it.

[jedipilot24]

To expand on this, templates do what they say they do. There are probably some templates that explicitly make you lose your human bonus feat, but by default if a template doesn't change something explicitly it doesn't change it.

An example of a template where humans do lose their bonus feat is the Dragonborn template from Races of the Dragon.

[General Sajaru]

Given that polymorph is from alter self, and alter self says, "Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form," I take that to mean that you don't lose your human feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Given that polymorph is from alter self, and alter self says, "Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form," I take that to mean that you don't lose your human feat.
I think you missed something.
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

[General Sajaru]

Oops, thanks for catching that :smallsmile:

[fallensavior]

...if you reincarnate as anything other than human you loose the bonus feat although you gain the abilities of your new race...

What is the justification for this? Doesn't the Reincarnate spell text specifically state that you retain all feats?

[Urpriest]

Oops, thanks for catching that :smallsmile:

Note that either way, it's irrelevant. Having a bonus feat is not a feature of either the humanoid type or the human subtype, as evidenced by the fact that there are several creatures with both that don't have a bonus feat.

[Curmudgeon]

As is often the case, the FAQ answer doesn't exactly match the rules. Humans get bonus skill points, but the answer requires losing skill ranks. A Human polymorphed into some other creature when they level up would not get bonus skill points. However, you don't lose skill ranks retroactively, even if your INT drops; nor do you gain skill ranks retroactively. Removing a skill point bonus only matters if you have skill points, and that only happens at step 6 of the level advancement sequence (Player's Handbook, pages 58-59). You gain skill points when you advance a level, and not at any other time. After you've finished leveling up you no longer have any skill points (bonus or otherwise), so there's nothing to lose if you change shape.

[Crake]

What is the justification for this? Doesn't the Reincarnate spell text specifically state that you retain all feats?

Yeah, it does, I see no justification for losing human bonus feat when you get reincarnated.

[JoranShadeslayr]

What is the justification for this? Doesn't the Reincarnate spell text specifically state that you retain all feats?

Yes, but you loose your previous races racial traits, and the human bonus feat is a racial trait. Therefore you loose the feat.

[jiriku]

I don't think RAW addresses this explicitly. However, a human who polymorphs into a monster that has racial bonus feats would gain those bonus feats, right? And a monster with racial bonus feats that polymorphed into something else would lose those feats, right? Isn't a human just a monster with a racial bonus feat?

[fallensavior]

Yes, but you loose your previous races racial traits, and the human bonus feat is a racial trait. Therefore you loose the feat.

The spell does not say "lose racial traits". The closest it comes is saying "remove racial adjustments"...referring to STR, DEX, CON.

Again, the spell specifically states to retain all feats, so the only time I could see losing one would be if you're new physical stats no longer meet the prerequisite.

As a DM, my common sense tells me that you keep mental abilities and swap physical abilities, and make sure you note that you were originally human somewhere on your sheet to avoid future confusion.

[Urpriest]

I don't think RAW addresses this explicitly. However, a human who polymorphs into a monster that has racial bonus feats would gain those bonus feats, right? And a monster with racial bonus feats that polymorphed into something else would lose those feats, right? Isn't a human just a monster with a racial bonus feat?

If RAW were clear about that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The whole problem is that it's not obvious what racial bonus feats qualify as: whether they're extraordinary attacks, extraordinary qualities, natural abilities, or something else altogether. While there are a few sources that specify one way or the other, they generally do so in a way that's somewhat dubious from a primary source rules point of view.

[JoranShadeslayr]

The spell does not say "lose racial traits". The closest it comes is saying "remove racial adjustments"...referring to STR, DEX, CON.

Again, the spell specifically states to retain all feats, so the only time I could see losing one would be if you're new physical stats no longer meet the prerequisite.

As a DM, my common sense tells me that you keep mental abilities and swap physical abilities, and make sure you note that you were originally human somewhere on your sheet to avoid future confusion.

You are right. My apologies. I misread that sentence and had to read it again. It seems you would keep it. So you could start as human, kill yourself, and then have someone reincarnate you as the race you really wanted to play and have an extra feat. My DM would kill me for even thinking of trying that.

[fallensavior]

You are right. My apologies. I misread that sentence and had to read it again. It seems you would keep it. So you could start as human, kill yourself, and then have someone reincarnate you as the race you really wanted to play and have an extra feat. My DM would kill me for even thinking of trying that.

Yeah, it would be pretty imbalanced if you got to pick what race you get.

[atemu1234]

An example of a template where humans do lose their bonus feat is the Dragonborn template from Races of the Dragon.

But that's not a true 'template'. Most describe it as a psuedotemplate.

[Khedrac]

You are right. My apologies. I misread that sentence and had to read it again. It seems you would keep it. So you could start as human, kill yourself, and then have someone reincarnate you as the race you really wanted to play and have an extra feat. My DM would kill me for even thinking of trying that.
Well there is also the loss of a level that applies to reincarnate...

[SinsI]

I'd say that you never lose it without some mind altering magic (like Dark Chaos Shuffle or Psychic Reformation). It is like skill points - something your character has learned in the past. You might not be able to use the feat in your new form (i.e. due to not meeting some prerequisites), but the feat is still there.

[Psyren]

Just to chime in on the (True) Mind Switch part of the question, it explicitly says you keep your feats. This may or may not be the intended outcome, but as written, it means your human bonus feat would go with you.

That line also means that bonus feats from other sources are kept as well, for example your psion bonus feats.

I'll leave the polymorph discussion to those more knowledgeable of how it works in 3.5 than I am.