Levels above 20

[Clistenes]

I have been reading the 5th edition Player's Handbook and DM's Guide (I'm still playing 3.5 ed) and I kind of like everything I see. It is quite simple but very customizable, with a feel that is a mix of 2nd and 3rd editions.

There is a thing that kind of bothers me, however: The way they treat characters above 20th level.

I understand that they want to avoid unbalanced characters, so they cut the power creep, but, couldn't they allow characters to start a new class? Or at least allow multiclassed characters to take more levels in classes that they already have?

After 20th level characters could gain another level every time they earn 50,000 xp.

The proficiency bonus shouldn't go above +6, and the spell slots per level shouldn't increase beyond the tables (so, for example, a Paladin 10/Sorcerer 15 would reach its max spell slots)

There should also be a limit to the hit points. They could maybe allow you to reroll a level of your class with least hp using the dice of the class with more hp, until all your levels have been rolled with your higher dice.

For example, if you are a Fighter 5/Bard 15, every time you gain a level above 20 you would reroll one of your Bard levels, using a d10 dice instead of a d8 one, until at level 35 all your levels would have been rolled with a d10 dice.

There should also be a limit to how you can raise your abilities. No ability above 28 (18 plus five Ability Score Improvements) seems reasonable.

You would still gain the class features and the feats or the Ability Score Improvements (so long as you don't raise them above 23 20).

In the end, you can make a character that is the best at every one of its classes, but it wouldn't be superhuman. It wouldn't be a better Wizard than a Wizard 20, or a better Fighter than a Fighter 20.

What do you think?

[Jeraa]

The proficiency bonus shouldn't go above +6, and the spell slots per level shouldn't increase beyond the tables (so, for example, a Paladin 10/Sorcerer 15 would reach its max spell slots)

There should also be a limit to the hit points. They could maybe allow you to reroll a level of your class with least hp using the dice of the class with more hp, until all your levels have been rolled with your higher dice.

Monster proficiency bonuses go above +6, and have no cap on hit points. Why should the PCs be any different?


There should also be a limit to how you can raise your abilities. No ability above 23 (18 plus five Ability Score Improvements) seems reasonable.

Ability score improvements are 2 points each, not 1. Well, you can split it and put 1 point in 2 scores. Besides that, there is already a limit on how high you can raise your scores - no score can go above 20 without magic (or other ability that lets you raise the cap).

[Tvtyrant]

I think if I ever get to beyond level 20 the classes will slowly become more like 3.5 or AD&D. Auto-sustain spells of a certain level and below, fighters become better faster (maybe even use strikes from ToB), etc. I might even slap some 10th level spells on there. I don't imagine my group, which capped out at level 10 at the highest in a 2 year campaign, will ever get close to it so for me it doesn't matter.

[archaeo]

What do you think?

You don't like the Epic Boon set-up? I feel like that's a pretty good platform for level 20+ play; some of those are very powerful effects, after all.

If it's not your cup of tea, though, your suggestions sound as good as any.

[Giant2005]

You don't like the Epic Boon set-up? I feel like that's a pretty good platform for level 20+ play; some of those are very powerful effects, after all.

If it's not your cup of tea, though, your suggestions sound as good as any.

This. I'm looking forward to epic booning my highest level character up - I think I actually prefer it to just more levels... It is much more epic.

[odigity]

Thought you guys might appreciate a data point:

My group started playing 2014-Oct-30 at level 1, and have been meeting almost every week since, usually for 4hrs at a time. We just had our 22nd session today. We're currently at level 9 with about 56k XP.

We just this week started discussing what we might want to do as we approach and eventually arrive at 20th. So far we've discussed creating rules to let us keep gaining levels if we feel like it, as well as starting a second group of 1st lvl chars in the same world to switch focus to more and more, keeping the high level chars in reserve for large events and special situations.

[Dimcair]

1. Have a wizard true poly morph your party into Dragons.

2. You are now a Dragon, start over as a lvl 1 (insert class here). Adjust the adventures for the fact that you are level 1 characters but also Dragons.

3. Find a catchphrase whenever your whole team transforms into Dragons.

4. Have fun

[Giant2005]

1. Have a wizard true poly morph your party into Dragons.

2. You are now a Dragon, start over as a lvl 1 (insert class here). Adjust the adventures for the fact that you are level 1 characters but also Dragons.

3. Find a catchphrase whenever your whole team transforms into Dragons.

4. Have fun

Or polymorph into an exact replica of yourself, except with a freckle above your right eyebrow so you can consider yourself brand new and take a level 1 class without giving up your former abilities.

[AuraTwilight]

That's not how polymorph works.

[calebrus]

That's not how polymorph works.

Exactly.
I don't know why people seem to think that a True Poly literally wipes the slate clean.
You might be a dragon, or a new you, or whatever, but you're still a PC with enough XP to get to level 17 or so, if not more.
You don't get to start out as a level 1 from scratch needing only 300 to get to level 2. You'd need enough XP to get to 18 (or whatever level is above what you had) before you could advance.
And if that Poly gets dispelled, you'd be 17/1, or whatever is appropriate. Because yes, it can be dispelled. It can become permanent, as in, you no longer need to concentrate on it. But it is still a magical effect (which now happens to be a permanent magical effect) which can be dispelled just like any other magical effect.

[Xetheral]

Exactly.
I don't know why people seem to think that a True Poly literally wipes the slate clean.
You might be a dragon, or a new you, or whatever, but you're still a PC with enough XP to get to level 17 or so, if not more.
You don't get to start out as a level 1 from scratch needing only 300 to get to level 2. You'd need enough XP to get to 18 (or whatever level is above what you had) before you could advance.
And if that Poly gets dispelled, you'd be 17/1, or whatever is appropriate. Because yes, it can be dispelled. It can become permanent, as in, you no longer need to concentrate on it. But it is still a magical effect (which now happens to be a permanent magical effect) which can be dispelled just like any other magical effect.

Because even after multiple threads on multiple forums, there is no consensus on how True Polymorph actually works.

Even whether or not it can be dispelled is up for debate, because as far as I know it's the only "permanent" magical effect in the game--everything else is either instantaneous, concentration, fixed duration, or "until dispelled". Unfortunately this means there aren't rules for "permanent" effects, so everyone is equally in the dark.

[archaeo]

everyone is equally in the dark.

Alternately, every DM is right! Bad for forum arguments, great for cross-table flexibility. :smallbiggrin:

[TheOOB]

I personally like the epic boon section. It allows you to squeeze out a few extra levels of play where your character is complete, where you have all your abilities, but still gives you some advancement. At some point though, the game needs to end.

[Clistenes]

I personally like the epic boon section. It allows you to squeeze out a few extra levels of play where your character is complete, where you have all your abilities, but still gives you some advancement. At some point though, the game needs to end.

Yes, but somebody may have something like a Pal 5/Bard 15 and wish to complete his bard levels instead of taking Epic Boons. I was proposing a way to do so without breaking the game (no more than 20 hit dice, no proficience bonus above +6, abilities remain capped at 20, no more than 2 attacks unless you are a fighter...etc.)

[jkat718]

@Clistenes: The DMG says that level 20+ characters should have an ability score cap of 30, but that's assuming that you can (theoretically) get an ASI at every 30k XP.

[EvanescentHero]

Yes, but somebody may have something like a Pal 5/Bard 15 and wish to complete his bard levels instead of taking Epic Boons. I was proposing a way to do so without breaking the game (no more than 20 hit dice, no proficience bonus above +6, abilities remain capped at 20, no more than 2 attacks unless you are a fighter...etc.)

There are monsters in the MM with CRs higher than twenty. How can it break the game to have your party's level match the CR of the monsters they'll be fighting?

I think your rules are overly complex and having characters gain all the normal benefits of leveling up over twenty doesn't seem broken to me. The boons section is interesting and nice to have, but some official epic level rules would be cool as well, or something like Pathfinder's mythic adventures.

[Clistenes]

I think your rules are overly complex

Not really. They are just:

1.-The Proficiency Bonus doesn't go above +6
2.-The Ability Cap remains at 20 (unless Tomes or Manuals are used).
3.-No more than 20 hit dice, but when you level up you can change one of your smaller HD for one of your bigger HD (for example, a d6 dice for a d10 dice)

[Giant2005]

Exactly.
I don't know why people seem to think that a True Poly literally wipes the slate clean.
You might be a dragon, or a new you, or whatever, but you're still a PC with enough XP to get to level 17 or so, if not more.
You don't get to start out as a level 1 from scratch needing only 300 to get to level 2. You'd need enough XP to get to 18 (or whatever level is above what you had) before you could advance.
And if that Poly gets dispelled, you'd be 17/1, or whatever is appropriate. Because yes, it can be dispelled. It can become permanent, as in, you no longer need to concentrate on it. But it is still a magical effect (which now happens to be a permanent magical effect) which can be dispelled just like any other magical effect.

I'm not so sure I agree about the 17/1 thing. As far as I'm concerned that level earned while polymorphed belongs to the polymorph - if you turn back into your default form you don't keep any of the Polymorph's abilities which would now include the benefits of that level. You would just be level 17.
Ia'd also treat the xp of the polymorph and the character seperately. Just because he is level 17, doesn't mean he is turning into a level 17 creature. For example: although the Adult Red Dragon is a valid option at CR 17, that Adult Red Dragon is level 19 and in order to progress in a class, he would need to earn the XP required to go from level 19 to 20. Conversely, if he really did want to respec his character somehwat, he could turn into a CR 1/4 Pixie and start his level progression from that Pixie's level of 1 (Which wouldn't actually be a terrible idea - the Pixie's Flight, Magic Resistance, good attributes, invis at will and innate spellcasting would make it the best race in the game).

[EvanescentHero]

Not really. They are just:

1.-The Proficiency Bonus doesn't go above +6
2.-The Ability Cap remains at 20 (unless Tomes or Manuals are used).
3.-No more than 20 hit dice, but when you level up you can change one of your smaller HD for one of your bigger HD (for example, a d6 dice for a d10 dice)

I said I think they are. As in they are to me. But out of curiosity, what's your reasoning? The Monster Manual has proficiency scaling above twentieth level, so it seems easy to just port that over, and makes more sense than someone not being able to get better at fighting (or their skills or the tools they regularly use, etc) in the slightest while still gaining levels. I'm not sure about raising the ability cap, though at epic levels I'm not sure it's that game-breaking. As for the hit points thing, that's the part that really seems unnecessarily fiddly to me. Just let people stack their HP; it shouldn't matter that much. Plus at that point, a level twenty fighter gains no HP from, say, a monk level, even though s/he should realistically still be getting tougher.

[TheOOB]

There are monsters in the MM with CRs higher than twenty. How can it break the game to have your party's level match the CR of the monsters they'll be fighting?

Your party can't beat monsters with a CR higher than they're level?

[Giant2005]

Yes, but somebody may have something like a Pal 5/Bard 15 and wish to complete his bard levels instead of taking Epic Boons. I was proposing a way to do so without breaking the game (no more than 20 hit dice, no proficience bonus above +6, abilities remain capped at 20, no more than 2 attacks unless you are a fighter...etc.)

The problem is that as soon as that Pally/Bard hits Pally 10/Bard 20, he is going to turn into Tiamat and the player will whip out a real-life, maniacal laugh as he has just won the game.

[Clistenes]

I said I think they are. As in they are to me. But out of curiosity, what's your reasoning?.

The game is designed for non-epic characters. The designers explicitly say that characters don't gain more levels after 20. I haven't tried it, but I guess the character's very high saves, attack, damage and high points would provoke the same problems as in 3.5 Epic levels. If you allow the hp, attack, saves and damage to keep growing you would have to redesign the game.

So I proposed a way for the characters to do more non-epic stuff at a non-epic level.

[EvanescentHero]

Your party can't beat monsters with a CR higher than they're level?

Admittedly the CR system seems like it could use some work, since my party of non-optimizers is making incredibly short work of CR-appropriate monsters, but I do feel that if I tossed a monster with a CR five higher than their level, they might get obliterated.

[Fwiffo86]

I don't think optimization is a thing anymore. It doesn't seem to really make much difference, as in, little enough to be ignored.

To quote Syndrome:

"When everyone is super...... no one will be."