Rise of the Runelords: Optimizing the Skinsaw Cult

[ArcanistSupreme]

My party is about to discover the hideout of the Skinsaw Cult in Magnimar. While I understand that they are only pawns in the grander scheme of things, I still want it to be a memorable encounter. As written, I think that the cultists fall pretty far short. They're pretty much just rogues + shield of faith, and weak rogues at that. The party will likely be able to demolish them without breaking a sweat.

Does anyone have any rebuild suggestions? Has anyone run this module in the past? If so, what was your experience? What are some clever tactics that the cultists can employ even if they are momentarily surprised (they know the PCs are in town)? I plan to rebuild the cult leader as an Incantor using Spheres of Power, focusing on War, Darkness, and Warp spheres.

The party is moderately optimized (although they often make poor combat decisions) and is as follows:

Psychic Warrior focused on getting big and BFC
Wizard focused on Evocation with a smattering of heavy hitters like grease, glitterdust, and the like.
Zen Archer/Qigong Monk
PoW Stalker

All are at level 6.

Any and all suggestions and anecdotes are welcome!

[deuxhero]

If the party doesn't include anyone with darkvision, have the enemies be equipped for combat in the dark, then work to kill the lights as soon as they are aware of the threat. Enforce all lighting penalties.

[Elricaltovilla]

Well since PoW is on the table, give each cultist the Leaping Dragon boost and the Sun Dips Low counter. That way they have a swift action movement option and a counter they can use against attacks (make sure to give full ranks in Acrobatics!). Let them recover one maneuver every 1d4 rounds, or just keep them as per encounter abilities.

I don't recommend giving out strikes as I personally think that strikes on enemies only serve to increase the rocket tag nature of the game, and I kind of feel that the PCs should end up "winning" anyway. But boosts and counters are nice little surprises that can really throw your players for a loop, even the stalker!

[ArcanistSupreme]

If the party doesn't include anyone with darkvision, have the enemies be equipped for combat in the dark, then work to kill the lights as soon as they are aware of the threat. Enforce all lighting penalties.

The psychic warrior is a half-giant and the monk is a dwarf, so while this is a good idea, it won't do much against them. Against the half-elf and elf though...


Well since PoW is on the table, give each cultist the Leaping Dragon boost and the Sun Dips Low counter. That way they have a swift action movement option and a counter they can use against attacks (make sure to give full ranks in Acrobatics!). Let them recover one maneuver every 1d4 rounds, or just keep them as per encounter abilities.

I don't recommend giving out strikes as I personally think that strikes on enemies only serve to increase the rocket tag nature of the game, and I kind of feel that the PCs should end up "winning" anyway. But boosts and counters are nice little surprises that can really throw your players for a loop, even the stalker!

I *really* like this idea, but I don't feel like those maneuvers are appropriate for death cultists thematically. They aren't circus cultists. :smalltongue: Does cursed razor or one of the new disciplines have anything a little more in line (I'm just familiar with PoW I)?

[Elricaltovilla]

It depends on what, specifically, you want them to do. I'd avoid cursed razor as those maneuvers often require setup in the form of [curse]ing opponents first. I'm not familiar with the skinsaw cultists, so if you can tell me their basic setup I can probably be more help.

[ArcanistSupreme]

The build as presented is Cleric (Norgorber (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Norgorber)) 1/Rogue 1. They basically believe that they need to murder people that the head cultist tells them to so that the future can be subtly shaped by these deaths accordingly to the will of their dark god.

Here's the build: Link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-1/cultist)

[jaydubs]

Has anyone run this module in the past? If so, what was your experience? What are some clever tactics that the cultists can employ even if they are momentarily surprised (they know the PCs are in town)?

I don't have any suggestions on rebuilds, but here's my experience from the player side of things. While the fight was rather easy once it became a fight, it was memorable because we weren't sure when we entered the mill if they were enemies. We played it as such, despite the usual map = fight clue, and ended up getting split up throughout the mill.

The most exciting parts were:

1. Our wizard ended up in a room by himself, surrounded by several of the cultists.
2. The cultist leader tried to make a break for it once it became obvious how the fight would turn out. There was a lot of jumping down staircases, guess where he might be glitterdusts, and general mayhem to try to take him alive.
3. There was the very real threat of having to fight the city if we didn't handle the situation properly. Since we were random armed strangers from out-of-town, and they were (by outward appearance) a long-standing business in the community.

But yeah - if your PCs are semi-optimized, and of the "shoot first, ask questions later" temperament, it's an easy fight.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I don't have any suggestions on rebuilds, but here's my experience from the player side of things. While the fight was rather easy once it became a fight, it was memorable because we weren't sure when we entered the mill if they were enemies. We played it as such, despite the usual map = fight clue, and ended up getting split up throughout the mill.

The most exciting parts were:

1. Our wizard ended up in a room by himself, surrounded by several of the cultists.
2. The cultist leader tried to make a break for it once it became obvious how the fight would turn out. There was a lot of jumping down staircases, guess where he might be glitterdusts, and general mayhem to try to take him alive.
3. There was the very real threat of having to fight the city if we didn't handle the situation properly. Since we were random armed strangers from out-of-town, and they were (by outward appearance) a long-standing business in the community.

But yeah - if your PCs are semi-optimized, and of the "shoot first, ask questions later" temperament, it's an easy fight.

I think they'll be on edge going into the investigation, as the last session they all almost died because they trusted some very suspicious people and ended up getting poisoned. But then again, the party is notorious for spending a stupid amount of time discussing, deliberating, hemming, and hawing about what they should do before they inevitably kick in the front door, walking into ambushes if at all possible. So who knows. But while I want them to do well, I want there to be tension, and tissue paper mooks don't do it for me.

[Kudaku]

Does anyone have any rebuild suggestions? Has anyone run this module in the past? If so, what was your experience? What are some clever tactics that the cultists can employ even if they are momentarily surprised (they know the PCs are in town)? I plan to rebuild the cult leader as an Incantor using Spheres of Power, focusing on War, Darkness, and Warp spheres.

Like you, I wasn't particularly impressed by the skinsaw cult. My players had been having an easy time of it so far, so I made some changes to this encounter. First I made the cult leader an 8th level inquisitor rather than a rogue/cleric, and changed his feats to grant him a houseruled feat that's the rough equivalent of Deadly Agility to take advantage of his high dexterity bonus. Next I changed the clerics to be Cleric 3/rogue 1 so they could cast 2nd level spells like Aid and Invisibility (via the trickery domain).

Since the party was nice enough to show up on the predetermined meeting, knocked, asked to see the manager, and then waited for a bit before realizing that something was going on and entering the mill, I had plenty of time to pre-buff both the inquisitor and his minions, and prepare their defenses. I had half the cultists, invisible, on the next to top floor. The other half were upstairs, with the leader. I had the cult leader use Disguise Self to appear as one of the cultists (he was labeled as Cultist #17) and one of the cultists use Disguise Self to appear as the cult leader, brandishing the sacrificial knife over the unconscious gambler.

When the party busts in upstairs they saw ~8 identical cultist tokens, and one unique token who looked much more important, all in the middle of a ritualistic slaying. All of them had cleric buffs such as Aid and Shield of Faith active. Fairly predictably, they immediately declared smite evil etc. on the apparent BBEG when it was clear that combat was starting, who spontaneously melted under the focused fire in the first round. Then the 6 invisible cultists rushed in from the floor below (with introductory sneak attacks!) and effectively split up the party while offering a cornucopia of flanking opportunities, while Cultist #17 activated Bane: Native Outsider and started laying into the aasimar paladin for 1d6+obnoxious per swing. The inquisitor's Solo Tactics is fantastic when you have ~12 minions to qualify you for Outflank and Precise Strike.

It was one of the closest fights I've ever run. I made my changes while expecting the mill to go more or less the way the book lines it up, with cultists fought on each floor before the climactic fight against the leader on top. That way they'd have plenty of time to recognize the tactics of the enemy (invisibility, sneak attacks) and take steps to counter it, with the inquisitor at the end being a bit of a curve ball. Instead they got stuck into all of it at once! The characters survived the fight by the skin of their teeth, but we all had a great time.

The above may be a little hazy on the rules details, since it's about two years since I ran it. I think it should be accurate though. I still have the cult leader's character sheet somewhere in my office as a memento!

[ArcanistSupreme]

Like you, I wasn't particularly impressed by the skinsaw cult. My players had been having an easy time of it so far, so I made some changes to this encounter. First I made the cult leader an 8th level inquisitor rather than a rogue/cleric, and changed his feats to grant him a houseruled feat that's the rough equivalent of Deadly Agility to take advantage of his high dexterity bonus. Next I changed the clerics to be Cleric 3/rogue 1 so they could cast 2nd level spells like Aid and Invisibility (via the trickery domain).

Since the party was nice enough to show up on the predetermined meeting, knocked, asked to see the manager, and then waited for a bit before realizing that something was going on and entering the mill, I had plenty of time to pre-buff both the inquisitor and his minions, and prepare their defenses. I had half the cultists, invisible, on the next to top floor. The other half were upstairs, with the leader. I had the cult leader use Disguise Self to appear as one of the cultists (he was labeled as Cultist #17) and one of the cultists use Disguise Self to appear as the cult leader, brandishing the sacrificial knife over the unconscious gambler.

When the party busts in upstairs they saw ~8 identical cultist tokens, and one unique token who looked much more important, all in the middle of a ritualistic slaying. All of them had cleric buffs such as Aid and Shield of Faith active. Fairly predictably, they immediately declared smite evil etc. on the apparent BBEG when it was clear that combat was starting, who spontaneously melted under the focused fire in the first round. Then the 6 invisible cultists rushed in from the floor below (with introductory sneak attacks!) and effectively split up the party while offering a cornucopia of flanking opportunities, while Cultist #17 activated Bane: Native Outsider and started laying into the aasimar paladin for 1d6+obnoxious per swing. The inquisitor's Solo Tactics is fantastic when you have ~12 minions to qualify you for Outflank and Precise Strike.

It was one of the closest fights I've ever run. I made my changes while expecting the mill to go more or less the way the book lines it up, with cultists fought on each floor before the climactic fight against the leader on top. That way they'd have plenty of time to recognize the tactics of the enemy (invisibility, sneak attacks) and take steps to counter it, with the inquisitor at the end being a bit of a curve ball. Instead they got stuck into all of it at once! The characters survived the fight by the skin of their teeth, but we all had a great time.

The above may be a little hazy on the rules details, since it's about two years since I ran it. I think it should be accurate though. I still have the cult leader's character sheet somewhere in my office as a memento!

This sounds perfect! Would you mind throwing that character sheet (or at least the highlights) up here?

[Kudaku]

This sounds perfect! Would you mind throwing that character sheet (or at least the highlights) up here?

I'll do you one better. After looking over the sheet I corrected a few mistakes, updated it a bit, and ran it through Herolab.


Justice Ironbriar
Elf inquisitor of Norgorber 8 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38)
NE Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +6 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 67 (8d8+24)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +8; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 shortsword +13/+8 (1d6+7/19-20)
Ranged mwk hand crossbow +13 (1d4/19-20)
Special Attacks bane (8 rounds/day), judgment 3/day (2 simultaneous)
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +10)
. . At will—detect alignment, discern lies (8 rounds/day)
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 8th; concentration +10)
. . 3rd (2/day)—channel vigor, cure serious wounds, heroism
. . 2nd (5/day)—inner focus, invisibility, silence (DC 14), weapon of awe[APG] (DC 14)
. . 1st (5/day)—bless, disguise self, divine favor, protection from good, shield of faith
. . 0 (at will)—bleed (DC 12), brand[APG] (DC 12), detect magic, light, read magic, virtue
. . Domain Heresy inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 12
Base Atk +6; CMB +5; CMD 21
Feats Deadly Agility, Outflank[APG], Piranha Strike, Precise Strike[APG], Toughness, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +8, Bluff +13, Disguise +12, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (local) +3, Knowledge (planes) +6, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +4, Perception +15, Profession (barrister) +10, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +17; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Spellcraft to identify magic item properties
Languages Common, Custom Language, Draconic, Elven, Halfling, Infernal
SQ blessed infiltration, elven magic, monster lore +2, solo tactics, stern gaze +4, track +4, word of anathema
Combat Gear wand of cure moderate wounds (12 charges); Other Gear mithral shirt, +1 buckler, +1 shortsword, mwk hand crossbow, reaper's mask, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
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Bane (+2 / 2d6, 8 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Blessed Infiltration (2/day) (Ex) Roll twice for Bluff, Diplomacy, or Stealth check and take higher result.
Deadly Agility Use Dex for damage with light and finesse weapons
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (8 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Inquisitor Domain (Heresy Inquisition) Deities: Abadar, Asmodeus, Calistria, Desna, Erastil, Gorum, Gozreh, Iomedae, Lamashtu, Nethys, Norgorber, Pharasma, Rovagug, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon.

Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Monster Lore +2 (Ex) +2 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Precise Strike +1d6 precision damage for melee attacks if you and an ally with this feat flank the same target.
Second Judgment (3/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Track +4 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Word of Anathema (1/day, DC 16) (Sp) Curse 1 foe in 60 ft (-4 to attack/save/ability/skill checks) for 1 min (Will neg).

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
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I changed his class to inquisitor, gave him the heresy inquisition (seems appropriate given his background), shifted some skills around (never made sense that he has 0 ranks in Profession when he's in a position of legal power), and changed his spell list to include a mix of spells useful in improving his combat and stats and slipping through society unseen. Keep in mind that Precise Strike and Outflank works well with Solo Tactics, so he really enjoys flanking possibilities.

This is nowhere near fully optimized, as I kept the original gear and ability scores. His stats are a little underwhelming before you take the buffs into account. With Judgement, Heroism, Bane and Piranha Strike active he'll hit at d20+18 for 1d6+2d6 (bane)+14. That goes up to D20+22 for 1d6+2d6 (bane) +14 + 1d6 (precise strike) if he's in a flanking position. If the party does give him a chance to buff up, go invisible and flank, I'd be a little careful with who I attack. A full attack with three hits would average to ~90 damage, which should be more than enough to kill a 6th level character. If you're worried that's on the high end, you could avoid using his full array of buffs or switch to other spells. Either way I'm fairly confident he should be able to put up a challenge to your party.

Hope that helps! :smallsmile:

[ArcanistSupreme]

That's perfect. I am going to copy and paste that and throw him at my players. The only thing I think I'll change is using the elf favored class bonus to give him the spell alarm because that seems like a sensible spell to have when you are committing murder rituals. Oh, and you got rid of that stupid war razor. <3 Seriously, what an idiotic weapon.

I can't wait. Of course, I'm still open to ideas and suggestions to make it even better. How can I make use of the setting? I want to press home that they're fighting in a sawmill, and the threat of falling on the blades or using the waterwheel as a set piece would be fun.

[Kudaku]

That's perfect. I am going to copy and paste that and throw him at my players. The only thing I think I'll change is using the elf favored class bonus to give him the spell alarm because that seems like a sensible spell to have when you are committing murder rituals. Oh, and you got rid of that stupid war razor. <3 Seriously, what an idiotic weapon.

I can't wait. Of course, I'm still open to ideas and suggestions to make it even better. How can I make use of the setting? I want to press home that they're fighting in a sawmill, and the threat of falling on the blades or using the waterwheel as a set piece would be fun.

I wish I could take credit for losing the war razor but I was basing my rebuild on the anniversary edition, where he uses a short sword. It's a much better choice for him anyway - it's the favored weapon of his deity and it's much more likely to be picked up and used by a character after he dies.

I'll let someone else make suggestions for set pieces, it's not really my forte and I already feel kind of bad for your players. Good luck! :smallsmile:

[ArcanistSupreme]

Huh. I have the anniversary edition too and it has him using the war razor.

[Kudaku]

Huh. I have the anniversary edition too and it has him using the war razor.

This one (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tc0?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Rise-of-the-Runelords-Anniversary-Edition), right? That's strange. Maybe they didn't catch the mistake in time for the printed version, but updated the PDF?

[ArcanistSupreme]

This one (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tc0?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Rise-of-the-Runelords-Anniversary-Edition), right? That's strange. Maybe they didn't catch the mistake in time for the printed version, but updated the PDF?

Yup. And I have the PDF. Right below the picture it says (In your downloads). Weird.

[Kudaku]

Have you had your PDF file for a long time by any chance? The only thing I can think of is that the PDF might have been updated somewhere along the line to change from war razor to short sword. The war razor is a relatively minor detail, but I can't help but wonder what else might be different. :smallconfused:

[ArcanistSupreme]

Have you had your PDF file for a long time by any chance? The only thing I can think of is that the PDF might have been updated somewhere along the line to change from war razor to short sword. The war razor is a relatively minor detail, but I can't help but wonder what else might be different. :smallconfused:

My copy is only a little over a year old at this point. February 2014. Maybe you have the older version, and someone thought the war razor was really cool and changed it.

[Kudaku]

Maybe. Just checked with a friend, whose copy also says short sword. Weird. Oh well, one of those things I guess. :smallsmile: