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Darkxarth
2007-04-16, 08:23 PM
Inspired by a OotS vs. TMNT thread in the comics forum, I've been working on making this race for the d20 system. I'm looking for advice on whether or not it's balanced, what you think is missing, and what you think doesn't need to be there.

Anthropomorphic Turtle

+6 Con, +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Dex
Medium Sized
Base Land Speed: 30 ft
Swim Speed: 20 ft
Racial Hit Dice: An Anthropomorphic Turtle begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +3.
Racial Skills: An Anthropomorphic Turtle's monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Spot and Listen. Anthropomorphic Turtles have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks (+8 in rocky or underground surroundings). In addition, they have a +8 bonus on Swim checks and have the ability to take 10 on a Swim check at any time.
Racial Feats: An Anthropomorphic Turtle’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Turtle’s Shell
Favored Class: Monk
Level Adjustment: +2

Turtle’s Shell (Ex): An Anthropomorphic Turtle's resilient skin and tough shell give it a +8 natural armor bonus. However, the Anthropomorphic Turtle's shell prevents it from wearing any kind of normal armor. It can, however, wear Bracers of Armor and it still benefits from the effects of the Mage Armor spell.
As a standard action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity, an Anthropomorphic Turtle can draw all its extremities into its hard shell. This grants it Damage Reduction 10/-. However, while withdrawn into its shell, the turtle cannot take any physical action (except coming out of its shell), and is treated as flat-footed and blind. The turtle can exit this state and return to its normal state as a move action that does provoke an attack of opportunity.

Belteshazzar
2007-04-16, 08:39 PM
Interesting I was just looking for a race for a fat italian plumber king and his taller brother to whoop on.

Darkxarth
2007-04-16, 08:42 PM
Interesting I was just looking for a race for a fat italian plumber king and his taller brother to whoop on.

Hmm, I hadn't even considered the Koop- er... um... non-Ninja Turtles application.

Orzel
2007-04-16, 08:58 PM
Nice.
Shouldn't they get monstrous humanoid levels?

Darkxarth
2007-04-16, 09:01 PM
Nice.
Shouldn't they get monstrous humanoid levels?

Thanks. Fixed.

Jasdoif
2007-04-16, 09:16 PM
Thanks. Fixed.Two levels of monstrous humanoid gives them BAB +2 and changes their saves to +0 Fort, +3 Reflex, and +3 Will.


Honestly, it makes much more sense to have the shell be a natural armor bonus instead of an armor bonus. Keep their inability to wear normal armor if you want.

For the sake of completeness, don't forget the +8 racial bonus on Swim checks and the ability to take 10 on Swim checks at all times, which is a benefit of having a natural swim speed.

I'd take Concentration off of their racial skill list and give them something more universal (perhaps Spot), unless you give them a new ability that relies on Concentration checks.

Do the defensive bonuses to AC from fighting defensively and the total defense action replace the normal dodge bonuses, or are they in addition to those?

Woot Spitum
2007-04-16, 09:24 PM
Why not favored class: ninja?

Townopolis
2007-04-16, 09:28 PM
Because the TMNT are much more like monks than ninja.

Except maybe Leo, because ninja-to aren't accepted monk weapons.

Rahdjan
2007-04-16, 09:30 PM
and give them a starting age of 15 -19.

Darkxarth
2007-04-16, 10:19 PM
Two levels of monstrous humanoid gives them BAB +2 and changes their saves to +0 Fort, +3 Reflex, and +3 Will.
Oops! Thanks.


Honestly, it makes much more sense to have the shell be a natural armor bonus instead of an armor bonus. Keep their inability to wear normal armor if you want.
Good call, I got some advice to style their armor bonuses after Warforged, and didn't think about changing it from armor to natural armor.


For the sake of completeness, don't forget the +8 racial bonus on Swim checks and the ability to take 10 on Swim checks at all times, which is a benefit of having a natural swim speed.
Ah yes, my mistake.


I'd take Concentration off of their racial skill list and give them something more universal (perhaps Spot), unless you give them a new ability that relies on Concentration checks.
I don't quite remember the reasoning behind Concentration as a skill... oh well, changed.


Do the defensive bonuses to AC from fighting defensively and the total defense action replace the normal dodge bonuses, or are they in addition to those?
Hmm... I think they'd lose the Dodge bonus, since I'm picturing them partially (or totally) hiding in their shells. That being said, I'm going to improve the bonuses while Fighting Defensively or taking a Full Defense Action so that there will be some added benefit above what regular races can do.


Why not favored class: ninja?
Because the TMNT are much more like monks than ninja.

Except maybe Leo, because ninja-to aren't accepted monk weapons.

Yeah, Leo's Katanas are a small problem, you'd have to take a nice little string of feats to make them work. Of course, they'd never (as far as I know) work as Monk weapons or with the Flurry. But you can lower the two-weapon fighting penalties down to the same level as Sais, Nunchaku, or a Bo.

EDIT: Turns out this only works when wielding one weapon, not two...

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-19, 12:07 AM
I wouldn't play this at ECL 1.

Darkxarth
2007-04-19, 12:19 AM
I wouldn't play this at ECL 1.

They already have an LA +2 and 2 racial hit dice, you couldn't play them at ECL 1, I don't think... :smallconfused:

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-19, 03:48 AM
They already have an LA +2 and 2 racial hit dice, you couldn't play them at ECL 1, I don't think... :smallconfused:

You misunderstand. I wouldn't play them if they were offered at ECL 1.

Just to give you some idea, let's look at a comparable race: the Karsite.

Karsite: 0 racial HD, +2 LA -- ECL 2
Anthro Turtrle: 2 racial HD, +2 LA -- ECL 4

Karsite: +2 CON, +2 CHA
AT: +4 Con, +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Dex

Karsite: All human traits (includes bonus feat and skills,) SR 10+class level, DR 5/magic, Magic Draining Attacks (Supress an opponent's combat magic item for 1 round; DC 10+CHA mod,) Spell Healing (heal 2hp/level of a spell resisted by SR,) Inability to cast Arcane or Divine spells (invocations and psionics are fine; magic items can be used normally; this allows a Karsite Warlock to totally bypass this ability,) proficient with light/medium armor and martial weapons.
AT: +6 Natural Armor, add +3 on Fighting Defensively, add +3 (stacks) and DR 3/- on Total Defense. Cannot wear armor. Armor bonuses to AC do not apply to this character.

Not to mention that there's no way for an Anthro Turtle spellcaster to cast 9th-level spells.

Darkxarth
2007-04-19, 04:52 AM
You misunderstand. I wouldn't play them if they were offered at ECL 1.

So you're saying that the Anthropomorphic Turtle isn't a very attractive race, i.e. you wouldn't play them even if they didn't impose a level adjustment or racial HD adjustment.

I see.

Two questions.

1. How is this Karsite not totally broken (yeah, I see the "can't cast arcane or divine spells")?

2. Where can I get myself one of these guys? :smallbiggrin:

And thank you for clarifying. :smallsmile:

EDIT: And I guess I should ask if there's anything you think that can be done to help balance the Anthropowhocares Turtle. To make it more attractive to players. (And no, I don't mean giving it a charisma bonus :smalltongue: )

BardicDuelist
2007-04-19, 04:36 PM
If you base it on the comic (I know, most people see the movies), Ninja is a better favorite class. They did a lot of striking from shadows, etc. If I had to make one as a PC, I'd give it one level of monk, and then ninja it up with ascetic stalker.
That, or taking rogue levels and ascetic rogue.
But really, the "lawful" alignment doesn't seem to fit most of them.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-19, 10:46 PM
Two questions.

1. How is this Karsite not totally broken (yeah, I see the "can't cast arcane or divine spells")?

Because LA +2 makes it really unattractive as a caster class. And casting is what they're best for.


2. Where can I get myself one of these guys? :smallbiggrin:

Tome of Magic, Binding section under Monsters.



EDIT: And I guess I should ask if there's anything you think that can be done to help balance the Anthropowhocares Turtle. To make it more attractive to players. (And no, I don't mean giving it a charisma bonus :smalltongue: )

Here's what I would do. (This is assuming you want to keep it ECL 4.)

First, I'd up the Nat Armor to +8. I'd also up the CON bonus to +6. The reason is that what an anthro turtle is really losing here is armor enhancements -- soulfire and such. The only way he can get them is with a shield and not everything can be put on a shield.

Second, it needs to have some kind of really good ability. For instance:

Turtling: An anthro turtle can draw all its extremities into its hard shell. This grants it immunity to damage of any kind. However, the turtle cannot take any physical action, and is treated as flat-footed and blind.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-19, 10:59 PM
Because LA +2 makes it really unattractive as a caster class. And casting is what they're best for.

Really? I'd think that "no casting" would make them unattractive as a caster class. :smalltongue:

---

I'm kidding, of course: I saw the whole "manifesting, binding, etc" proviso. But seriously, the anthro turtle is being created as a fighting race (TMNT), so it's best to compare it to another LA +2 fighting class.

Like, say, were-turtle. Lycanthropy applied to the Snapping Turtle.

Darkxarth
2007-04-19, 11:16 PM
Here's what I would do. (This is assuming you want to keep it ECL 4.)

First, I'd up the Nat Armor to +8. I'd also up the CON bonus to +6. The reason is that what an anthro turtle is really losing here is armor enhancements -- soulfire and such. The only way he can get them is with a shield and not everything can be put on a shield.

Second, it needs to have some kind of really good ability. For instance:

Turtling: An anthro turtle can draw all its extremities into its hard shell. This grants it immunity to damage of any kind. However, the turtle cannot take any physical action, and is treated as flat-footed and blind.

Hm, I like that. Thanks.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-19, 11:29 PM
Turtling is overpowered. The way it's written, an anthro turtle could detonate a thermonuclear bomb and walk away unharmed. More to the point, not even the Tarrasque can crack a Turtled Turtle.

Darkxarth
2007-04-19, 11:41 PM
Turtling is overpowered. The way it's written, an anthro turtle could detonate a thermonuclear bomb and walk away unharmed. More to the point, not even the Tarrasque can crack a Turtled Turtle.

Wow, I'm tired and should probably pay more attention. How about DR 10/- instead of immunity? More balanced?

Nebo_
2007-04-20, 02:00 AM
Wow, not being able to wear armour sucks, but not allowing it to stack with mage armour? That's terrible. There's no reason for that by normal rules. If you do that, then let them have the shell enchanted or something. Or, allow armour but give the shell an armour check penalty that stacks with armour.

melchizedek
2007-04-20, 02:25 AM
I agree with Nebo. I can see not allowing them to wear armor, but I don't think not allowing mage armor/bracer's of armor to work is necessary.

Darkxarth
2007-04-20, 02:46 AM
Wow, not being able to wear armour sucks, but not allowing it to stack with mage armour? That's terrible. There's no reason for that by normal rules. If you do that, then let them have the shell enchanted or something. Or, allow armour but give the shell an armour check penalty that stacks with armour.

Goddangit! Originally, the Turtle's Shell entry was just a modified Warforged entry, and the shell counted as armor, so I added that it didn't stack with Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor. But when someone pointed out that the shell should be natural armor, I neglected to change the Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor detail.

Still, that's why I put it up for public comment, so that people more observant than I can spot flaws and errors.

Anyway, thanks, I'm changing it now.

Premier
2007-04-20, 03:36 AM
You might want to check out the Savage Coast (aka Red Steel) campaign setting for 2nd edition AD&D, available for free on the WotC website as a Word document. It has a race of anthropomorphic turtles, which you might find interesting.

Darkxarth
2007-04-20, 04:28 AM
You might want to check out the Savage Coast (aka Red Steel) campaign setting for 2nd edition AD&D, available for free on the WotC website as a Word document. It has a race of anthropomorphic turtles, which you might find interesting.

Very useful for fluff, but since it's in 2nd edition, and I've never played 2nd edition, the crunch is all useless to me.

But again, the fluff is all great and actually gave me a few ideas.

EDIT:

Anthropomorphic Turtles are land-dwelling, humanoid turtles. They walk upright with a ponderous, rolling gait. The creatures have leathery, reptilian skin and shells that cover their backs and bellies. Only their heads, limbs, and tails stick out of their shells. An adult Anthropomorphic Turtle stands about 6 feet tall and weighs more than 500 pounds.
Anthropomorphic Turtles have no hair; their skin is mostly olive or blue-green. Their back shells are usually shinier and darker than their skin, while their front shells tend to be lighter, with a yellowish cast. An Anthropomorphic Turtle's eyes look something like the eyes of humans, except that the pupils are horizontal ovals in shape. The irises are vibrantly colored, usually blue, but sometimes green or red. An Anthropomorphic Turtle's mouth is beaklike and toothless and can deliver a vicious bite.
Anthropomorphic Turtles are stocky, but most of their weight comes from their shells, so they tend to remain at the same weight throughout their adult lives, never growing fat or thin. Their arms and hands are shaped like those of humans, but thicker and tipped with sharp claws. Anthropomorphic Turtles can wield most weapons as easily as humans. They usually wear no clothing, though some may wear cloaks, belts, or harnesses for carrying tools and supplies.

Despite their ancestry, Anthropomorphic Turtles are not especially slow, either mentally or physically; however, they are thinkers who might ponder a question a little longer than most before answering. Most Anthropomorphic Turtles are peaceful and slow to anger. While they have the same range of emotions as humans, Anthropomorphic Turtles are not as demonstrative and often seem cold and distant to more passionate races. Anthropomorphic Turtles tend to be lawful and good; chaotic or evil individuals are quite rare.
Anthropomorphic Turtles speak their own language, simply called Turtle, but most speak Common and Draconic as well.

I think it fits, but its encouraged me to give them back their 30 ft movement rate.