Identify the limitations of Vow of Poverty

[Hiro Quester]

My forest gnome druid character is seriously thinking about taking a Vow of Poverty.

My reasons aren't the main focus here. But if you are curious:
Playing a druid who spends a lot of time in wildshape, in a close-to-core game, with less than fully optimized party members and limited ability to use magic items in wildshape. Some of the best exalted feats are for druids, too. All this makes it look like an attractive option.
I know some of the alternative versions of VoP out there are superior. I especially like Tempestfury's one that gives you flexibility by having points to spend on effects your character needs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335794-Vow-of-Poverty-Remix). But it will already be a hard sell to DM to open this aspect of BoED to my character. A home-brewed version (no matter how sensiblele) will be an even harder sell.

I'm trying to understand the limitations and risks of taking the standard VoP.

VoP will take care of weapon enchantment, AC, damage reduction, resistance, energy resistance etc. But there are other things a high-level caster should probably have that VoP doesn't help with.

I'm trying to get clearer about what these are, and what a high-level Druid might do to compensate for those limitations.

For instance, consider Ernir's list of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) as a list of abilities or protections my character would need.

either VoP or druid helps with the following:

Flight (wildshape)
Freedom of Movement (VoP 14 continuous 24/7)
True Seeing (VoP 18, continuous 24/7)


What it does not help with, that would seem to be necessary, are these:


Mind Blank (VoP does shield you from attempts to detect your thoughts and alignment, but no protection against other mind-affecting effects like dominate, fascinate, etc.)
Stun negation
Daze negation
Fear negation (can a VoP PC eat a Heroes' Feast from someone else's Horn of Plenty, or is that "using" a magical object? I'd argue if you can receive a potion, you can receive a serving of a Heroes' Feast, too.)
Death effects and negative energy. (Druids get Death Ward at 5th level spell, but only for minutes/level. No metamagic reducers such that persistent Death Ward is possible. No Soulfire armor or Bone ring for continuous protection.)
Miss chances (Druids can't even cast Blur, Greater Blink etc. The best you get is fog cloud and obscuring mist, etc.) No Blurring armor or ring of blinking, etc.
Fortification against sneak attack or critical hits.
Tactical short-distance teleportation for emergency "get me the hell out of this!" jaunts. (No anklets of Translocation or aporter armor enhancement.)
Dispelling. No ring of counterspells or other protections.
No extradimensional stage space. (not for my own gear --I would not have any-- but for other mission-critical items. Party member turned to stone? Pop him in my Bag of Holding until I can prepare Stone to Flesh tomorrow. HST's impossible without a Bag of Holding. At least other party members can take care of storage.)
VoP also may bar you from casting any spell with an expensive focus component (so no jade circlet for shapechange!). The rules say you can beg expensive material components from other party members. Can you also Borrow mundane objects used as a focus for a spell?


Am I missing something? Can a druid with VoP access some of these important abilities in ways I haven't anticipated?

What else can't you do with VoP that a PC should consider before taking the vow?

[eggynack]

Mind Blank (VoP does shield you from attempts to detect your thoughts and alignment, but no protection against other mind-affecting effects like dominate, fascinate, etc.)

Stun negation
I think plant forms plus enhance wild shape handles these. It's tricky, because these things are type based, but they're also explicitly listed as an extraordinary special quality, at least on some plants.


Miss chances (Druids can't even cast Blur, Greater Blink etc. The best you get is fog cloud and obscuring mist, etc.) No Blurring armor or ring of blinking, etc.

Tactical short-distance teleportation for emergency "get me the hell out of this!" jaunts. (No anklets of Translocation or aporter armor enhancement.)
These two are exalted wild shape for blink dog form in a nut shell. It's the best exalted feat for a reason, and while part of that reason is certainly free Ex special qualities on animal forms, a big part of it is how sweet blink dog is. Reasonable version of miss chance, and one of the best forms of short range teleportation in the game.


Fortification against sneak attack or critical hits.
If you have complete mage, then this is one of the big things that the heart of X line gives you. Going primarily water with air for a side serving of light fortification works, or you could go big by using all four. Of course, the plant thing can work here too.

Less sure for the other things listed offhand, but there's probably something you can pull off.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can get Exalted Companion to get something like a Celestial Dire Eagle (RoS), and it can also take VoP, then it may be worth it. You would still be better off just getting Exalted Companion for that trick and having items for yourself, though. Note that the Dire Eagle companion also allows flight if you're medium or smaller. Be sure to get Natural Bond to offset its 'level -3' drawback.

You can use (Extended) Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire in CM for fortification and freedom of movement, among other things. Also remember Primal Hunter/Instinct/Senses/Speed in Dragon Magic for Improved Uncanny Dodge, along with their respective buffs.

For gaining those other effects, your best bet would be Leadership for a Wizard/Incantatrix cohort who has a Banner of the Storm's Eye and buffs you with Mind Blank. You can use Reach Spell with Death Ward and he can Cooperative Metamagic: Persistent it. He can get a Rind of Spell Storing and let you borrow it to use personal-range buffs, which he can Cooperative Metamagic: Persistent. These should include Greater Invisibility, Dimension Jumper (CM), Magic Circle Against Evil, etc. He can also ready actions to counterspell things like Dispel Magic. If you want to include shenanigans, he can use an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) and put Favor of the Martyr on it, UMD it to be able to cast that, use Ocular Spell to give it a fixed range, and use Metamagic Effect: Persistent after he casts it on you. That takes care of stun and daze, and he can have bags of holding/handy haversack/portable hole for extradimensional storage, which takes care of the whole list.

[Hiro Quester]

Exalted wildshape blink dog will take care of miss chance and teleport. Good point, Eggynack.

The plant forms are trickier, since wildshape doesn't get you the special qualities of the creature. Plant traits are listed as special qualities

Exalted companion is a given. It also taking VoP would be a good thing (DM may not approve though.). Esp. because animals have very limited AC without barding improved items.

In campaigns with more books open some of Biff's ideas would be good. (Though you can't use a cohort's rind of spell storing.)

But we only have PH, PHII, DMG, DMGII, MM and Stormwrack, plus any particular feats and PRCs from other books th DM approves.

Not having Complete Mage also limits access to the heart of X spells unfortunately. I would so be casting all of those otherwise.

[bekeleven]

A wizard with vow of poverty can’t own or use a spellbook. Wizards that take it have to hunt down an obscure Dragon Magazine ACF just to be able to prepare spells. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that restrictive.

And they’ll need them, since the wizard can’t use a door, so he has to dimension door into and out of his bathroom. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that poorly worded. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524)

[eggynack]

The plant forms are trickier, since wildshape doesn't get you the special qualities of the creature. Plant traits are listed as special qualities.
Hence enhance, though lacking the spell compendium gets in the way of that particular plan. The lack of books is a bit of a blessing and a curse where VoP is concerned, because you don't have some of the item based incentives to keep items around, and yet you don't have some of the best ways of avoiding VoP drawbacks. I'm not sure how it works out, on balance, because a ring of the beast, or belt of battle are some of the best things you'd be able to pull off with cash, while enhancing up some obscure aberration form is one of the best way to fill wholes in druidic capability.

Still, you can always just brute force a lot of these problems. Are opponents stunning, dazing, fearing, or doing any number of other things to you? Then it's good that you have a companion and summons to make up some of the action disadvantage when you're out of combat. Are sneak attacks problematic? Then just be where sneak attacks aren't with some crazy movement speed. You need to carry folks in some fashion? Then being massive or having a companion can act as a good pack mule. The spells that would get dispelled aren't even that great, because you lack a lot of the best long term buffs. So, you're in a weird spot, but it's not necessarily a bad spot.

[atemu1234]

A wizard with vow of poverty can’t own or use a spellbook. Wizards that take it have to hunt down an obscure Dragon Magazine ACF just to be able to prepare spells. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that restrictive.

And they’ll need them, since the wizard can’t use a door, so he has to dimension door into and out of his bathroom. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that poorly worded. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524)

Hooray for RAW!

[chaos_redefined]

In addition to the blink dog option, there is Master Earth for long range teleportation. Some limitations do apply.

As for dispelling, it might not be much, but you can check the CL improvement options, to see if you can boost your CL for the purpose of being dispelled.

Need to carry an ally who got hit by a Flesh to Stone spell? Turn into an elephant and carry them in your trunk.

[Hiro Quester]

Hence enhance, though lacking the spell compendium gets in the way of that particular plan.

I thought enhance wildshape only got you the extraordinary abilities, and thus not the special qualities, of the target creature? It's moot here as you note. But in general? Do I misunderstand something?

Bekeleven's point about not using a doorhandle is too literal IMHO (and I don't know why your whole post links to a post about why monks are awesome). You can't have or use material possessions. as long as you don't own the door you're okay. It would be a very stingy DM who interpreted that you can't use any object at all. You can drink a magic potion someone else gives you, for the Gods' sakes.

Not having a spell book or a divine focus is a problem. At least for a Druid, a divine focus of holly and mistletoe you harvest, you could claim you are just using a while, the same way you'd use an apple picked from a tree.

[SinsI]

See if you can convince your DM that you can spend your exalted bonus feats on Incarnum feats, and consider getting a couple levels of Totemist. A lot of the soulmelds help with the abilities you will be missing, and they work in all your forms.

[WeaselGuy]

Bekeleven's point about not using a doorhandle is too literal IMHO (and I don't know why your whole post links to a post about why monks are awesome).

Probably because he wrote that post, and towards the end he said the exact same thing there that he did here.

I do agree though, even if you say that by RAW, you can't use any material possessions (including someone else's door), I can't think of a single DM that would enforce that interpretation. And if they did, you probably shouldn't play at that table anyway.

[Rubik]

I thought enhance wildshape only got you the extraordinary abilities, and thus not the special qualities, of the target creature? It's moot here as you note. But in general? Do I misunderstand something?Um... There is nothing about being an extraordinary ability that prevents it from also being a special quality, and vice versa. If the spell gives you extraordinary abilities, it gives them to you, regardless of being special attacks or special qualities.


A wizard with vow of poverty can’t own or use a spellbook. Wizards that take it have to hunt down an obscure Dragon Magazine ACF just to be able to prepare spells. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that restrictive.

And they’ll need them, since the wizard can’t use a door, so he has to dimension door into and out of his bathroom. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that poorly worded. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524)...The wizard couldn't use the bathroom. It's not on his list of items. Heck, he can't even enter the building the bathroom is in, since that, too, isn't on his list of items.

[Hiro Quester]

Um... There is nothing about being an extraordinary ability that prevents it from also being a special quality, and vice versa. If the spell gives you extraordinary abilities, it gives them to you, regardless of being special attacks or special qualities..

Huh. I don't see that in the text:



Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su).

This seems to say that the extraordinary abilities of a creature are a subset of the special qualities. Enhance Wildshape seems to give you the Extraordinary abilities, not the others.


Edit: rather than derail this thread, I'll start another thread about this issue.


...The wizard couldn't use the bathroom. It's not on his list of items. Heck, he can't even enter the building the bathroom is in, since that, too, isn't on his list of items.

I was thinking the same thing. Especially he couldn't use "his bathroom" since he can't own one.

But again, a DM who interpreted that clause to mean that you can't use other people's (mundane) material possessions would be being very stingy.

[Rubik]

Huh. I don't see that in the text:It's not exactly explicit. Every special attack or special quality is either Ex, Su, Sp, Ps, or Na, which is a different system of categorization (ie, not dependent on whether a special ability is an attack or a quality).


This seems to say that the extraordinary abilities of a creature are a subset of the special qualities. Enhance Wildshape seems to give you the Extraordinary abilities, not the others.Right. EW doesn't give you Su, Sp, Ps, or Na. It gives you Ex ones, entirely irrespective of whether those Ex abilities are attacks or qualities, since the spell mentions neither special attacks nor special qualities. If the ability is Ex, the spell gives it to you.

[Hiro Quester]

It's not exactly explicit. Every special attack or special quality is either Ex, Su, Sp, Ps, or Na, which is a different system of categorization (ie, not dependent on whether a special ability is an attack or a quality).

Right. EW doesn't give you Su, Sp, Ps, or Na. It gives you Ex ones, entirely irrespective of whether those Ex abilities are attacks or qualities, since the spell mentions neither special attacks nor special qualities. If the ability is Ex, the spell gives it to you.

Yes. It was the "vice versa" I was troubled by. Some special qualities are not Ex and you don't get those with EW.

[eggynack]

Bekeleven's point about not using a doorhandle is too literal IMHO (and I don't know why your whole post links to a post about why monks are awesome). You can't have or use material possessions. as long as you don't own the door you're okay. It would be a very stingy DM who interpreted that you can't use any object at all. You can drink a magic potion someone else gives you, for the Gods' sakes.

As I noted in some thread, cause there be a lot of VoP threads now, the term material possessions does not imply that they need be your material possessions. A door in someone else's home is still owned, even if it's not owned by you.

[Hiro Quester]

As I noted in some thread, cause there be a lot of VoP threads now, the term material possessions does not imply that they need be your material possessions. A door in someone else's home is still owned, even if it's not owned by you.

But a potion of CLW is also owned, but not by you. But if its owner gives it to you, you are allowed to drink it. And this is a magical item, not just a mundane doorknob.

[eggynack]

But a potion of CLW is also owned, but not by you. But if its owner gives it to you, you are allowed to drink it. And this is a magical item, not just a mundane doorknob.
Yes, because leant potions are an explicit exception, while doors are not.

[Ellowryn]

For the pile of "any particular feats and PRCs from other books the DM approves.", but Gatekeeper Initiate (EBC,pg.54) gives you the spell Mindblank as a spell known. In fact many of the various Initiate feats are a good way to get extra spells known added to your class spell list, better for clerics but still.